Who Was Your Favorite Professor at NDSU

[GreenfieldBison]

Hopefully some of them will be from the Comp Sci dept as NDSU hasn't been able to turn out quality grads in that area for YEARS. Absolutely need some fresh blood in there that understands how to set students up for success in today's market not 1990's.

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What do you think they need to do differently?


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[TAILG8R]

What do you think they need to do differently?


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I feel they are stuck on continuing to do two things 1) Focus WAY too much on theory 2) Focus WAY too much on outdated technologies/methodologies/languages as well as way too much focus on the Microsoft ecosystem(which makes some sense but the Microsoft campus in Fargo is by far the end all be all of tech in this community).

In my role as VP of Engineering(Software) I have hired almost 50 people in the last 4-5 years alone and I can say without a doubt when it comes to candidates with less than a few years of experience those that graduated from NDSU are no where near the skill level or essentially understanding of rapid growth software engineering compared to other universities. MSUM is actually the preferred degree on resumes these days.

As a company we have talked to NDSU about this for years, as individuals my peers have talked to NDSU about these challenges, no change.

[GreenfieldBison]

I feel they are stuck on continuing to do two things 1) Focus WAY too much on theory 2) Focus WAY too much on outdated technologies/methodologies/languages as well as way too much focus on the Microsoft ecosystem(which makes some sense but the Microsoft campus in Fargo is by far the end all be all of tech in this community).

In my role as VP of Engineering(Software) I have hired almost 50 people in the last 4-5 years alone and I can say without a doubt when it comes to candidates with less than a few years of experience those that graduated from NDSU are no where near the skill level or essentially understanding of rapid growth software engineering compared to other universities. MSUM is actually the preferred degree on resumes these days.

As a company we have talked to NDSU about this for years, as individuals my peers have talked to NDSU about these challenges, no change.

Hmmm. You likely wouldn’t care for MIT graduates either then. They have much more theory and much less hands on work than NDSU grads in my personal experience. They can think damn quick though. They can learn quick too.

Looking through postings these days it looks to me like business wants mostly technicians who have a command of a certain technology and can come in to be productive with that certain technology on day one. I can well imagine that is not what NDSU is trying to produce and so they are likely out of step with business needs. I wonder what the market is for their CS product.


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[westnodak93bison]

Merkel, he was my uncle. Lost him a few years ago to cancer.

My dad always said Clark was a favorite among his students (during the 80's sometime IIRC). But since he went to school at NDSU, they wouldn't hire him on after grad school as a full professor.

Had to bring in "fresh blood" for "research".

Sorry to hear that. RIP Clark!

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[99Bison]

Hmmm. You likely wouldn’t care for MIT graduates either then. They have much more theory and much less hands on work than NDSU grads in my personal experience. They can think damn quick though. They can learn quick too.

Looking through postings these days it looks to me like business wants mostly technicians who have a command of a certain technology and can come in to be productive with that certain technology on day one. I can well imagine that is not what NDSU is trying to produce and so they are likely out of step with business needs. I wonder what the market is for their CS product.


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Tend to agree, I certainly don’t have context of the initial pain point brought up but it sounds like the typical college vs business wants situation that’s pretty pervasive. Hence 2 year/tech schools offer things like computer programming in specific tech or maybe the “Software Engineering” degree should be focused more on the most current things businesses want/etc but that is not really what “science” degrees/studies are. Then again, maybe we misunderstood the initial point.

[GreenfieldBison]

Tend to agree, I certainly don’t have context of the initial pain point brought up but it sounds like the typical college vs business wants situation that’s pretty pervasive. Hence 2 year/tech schools offer things like computer programming in specific tech or maybe the “Software Engineering” degree should be focused more on the most current things businesses want/etc but that is not really what “science” degrees/studies are. Then again, maybe we misunderstood the initial point.

Yes the 2 yr tech school degree is exactly what business wants these days. Perhaps that is really the need as well. Back when I came out of the CS dept in the 80's in the business world we were wielding crude tools like C and C++ and we had to fashion our own low level library routines and in some cases even I/O functions etc. We were still constrained by slow processors and limited memory and so there was a fair bit of art woven into the science in order to craft solutions to problems. With those crude tools you were as likely to sever a limb as produce a useful system solution if you weren't well trained.

Fast forward to today where the tools have matured, support libraries are plentiful and rich, and computing power is almost limitless and seemingly infinitely scalable. There's not a lot of "Software Engineering" going on out there. More like Software Production or Software Manufacturing. Business moves a bit faster as does society. The relationship between business and labor has also changed. Gone are the days of long term marriages between the two parties. Business has a problem and needs a solution. Tomorrow. There is not time nor the budget to train existing staff or certainly any newcomers. They need a plug and play cog for the wheel. That cog needs to produce results. Tomorrow. Not in June. Since most IT departments are being run by people with business backgrounds they are unaware of and/or unconvinced that theoretically trained CS majors can adapt to and master new technologies and languages etc. in pretty short order. Their reward systems do not allow for the risk.

I read an article recently asserting that we may be close to hitting the stops on Moore's Law. If true then as the article states the need to return to the days of crafting solutions to fit within computing resource constraints may soon overtake the need to fit budget and time constraints. We'll see. I would assume some technological discovery looms just over the horizon but who knows.

[TAILG8R]

Yes the 2 yr tech school degree is exactly what business wants these days. Perhaps that is really the need as well. Back when I came out of the CS dept in the 80's in the business world we were wielding crude tools like C and C++ and we had to fashion our own low level library routines and in some cases even I/O functions etc. We were still constrained by slow processors and limited memory and so there was a fair bit of art woven into the science in order to craft solutions to problems. With those crude tools you were as likely to sever a limb as produce a useful system solution if you weren't well trained.

Fast forward to today where the tools have matured, support libraries are plentiful and rich, and computing power is almost limitless and seemingly infinitely scalable. There's not a lot of "Software Engineering" going on out there. More like Software Production or Software Manufacturing. Business moves a bit faster as does society. The relationship between business and labor has also changed. Gone are the days of long term marriages between the two parties. Business has a problem and needs a solution. Tomorrow. There is not time nor the budget to train existing staff or certainly any newcomers. They need a plug and play cog for the wheel. That cog needs to produce results. Tomorrow. Not in June. Since most IT departments are being run by people with business backgrounds they are unaware of and/or unconvinced that theoretically trained CS majors can adapt to and master new technologies and languages etc. in pretty short order. Their reward systems do not allow for the risk.

I read an article recently asserting that we may be close to hitting the stops on Moore's Law. If true then as the article states the need to return to the days of crafting solutions to fit within computing resource constraints may soon overtake the need to fit budget and time constraints. We'll see. I would assume some technological discovery looms just over the horizon but who knows.

Solid points and I mostly agree with businesses needing immediate results, I've dealt with that mentality all too often in the past. I'm thankful to be in a place now that views training and growing their employees as a core value and something to be proud of.

[GreenfieldBison]

Solid points and I mostly agree with businesses needing immediate results, I've dealt with that mentality all too often in the past. I'm thankful to be in a place now that views training and growing their employees as a core value and something to be proud of.

I would say you are in a very good place then. Congrats.


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[IndyBison]

Solid points and I mostly agree with businesses needing immediate results, I've dealt with that mentality all too often in the past. I'm thankful to be in a place now that views training and growing their employees as a core value and something to be proud of.

Having worked in IT leadership for several years I generally disagree. There are 3 elements to developing software: fast, quality, cheap. You can have 2 of those but never all 3.

The main difference between someone with a 2 year tech degree and a 4 year degree is someone who is a good technical person and a technical person who can think and solve problems. You need both to be successful.

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[TAILG8R]

Good fast cheap, pick two. Those that can think for themselves and are truly problem solvers who can think at scale and with the future of the software in mind are the ones that eventually rise up as Sr engineers.

Although the idea of having a team of 40 Sr engineers sounds nice in reality you need "everyday workers". Not everyone can be the king.

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