NDSU shouldn't go DI because...

[tony]

Feel free to place your arguments against NDSU going DI here.

For anybody who missed the press conference a month ago, NDSU is going DI regardless so you'd only be second-guessing a decision that has already been made, but it could be pretty interesting to look at these in a couple years (say when UND is deciding to go DI) to see how accurate your objections were and whether they apply to UND going DI as well.

[Guest]

Cant think of one.

[Bisonguy]

1) The UND fans won't piss and moan anymore.

2) The Herald will longer have propaganda to spread.




Nevermind, neither of the above could ever happen. ;D

[The_Sicatoka]

Why should I say anything?

The Fargo newspaper (not Grand Forks, Fargo) is doing it. And this before Saturday night (or was it Sunday morning?) in Vermillion.

(All rights of the following belong the The Fargo Forum.)

Mike McFeely column: Struggles invite legit D-I concern
The Forum - 10/04/2002

Prevailing wisdom concerning North Dakota State’s leap to NCAA Division I went something like this: While it is true the Bison will struggle for years to become competitive in most sports - decades might be a more accurate time frame for men’s basketball - football will be the saving grace of this decision. The proud Bison football program, always competitive in Division II, will have the shortest road to travel in its step to Division I-AA.

NDSU should be able to take what is in place now and, with an additional 27 scholarships, start making rumblings in I-AA in five years.

It sounded so good, didn’t it?

Well, prevailing wisdom took a punch to the gut last Saturday night.

That’s when little Augustana marched into the Fargodome and did something it does once every 40 years. The Vikings beat NDSU in Fargo, whipping the Bison 23-6. And somehow, it seemed like the game wasn’t even that close.

It’s been said already, but it is worth repeating: This was a stunning loss for the Bison. Not because they lost. That’s going to happen.

Not because they lost at home. That was going to happen eventually.

And not even because they lost a game at home to a perennial second-division North Central Conference team like Augustana. Even that is bound to happen once every generation.

No, it was stunning because the Bison didn’t compete against a team that was far from being a juggernaut. They were outplayed by a team that was, frankly, nothing special.

Augustana was not a team that caught lightning in a bottle and rode a wave of emotion and momentum to hold off a superior Bison team. Those kind of upsets can occur in college football.

No, the Vikings just played a normal, nothing-special game - content to take no risks, happy to punt whenever possible and pleased to simply concentrate defensively on stopping the Bison’s running game. Yet from opening kickoff to final horn the Vikings looked like the better team, led by the better coaching staff.

It was enough to make a person question the state of the Bison football program. It was enough to make a person question whether the football team truly is in any better shape to make the jump to D-I than other programs.

Even the most ardent of NDSU fans will admit this: A football program, no matter how traditionally powerful, is going to have down years. It’s part of the deal. Maybe some recruits didn’t work out, maybe a couple left, maybe a couple were lost to career-ending injuries, maybe a team just didn’t gel correctly. Whatever.

Suddenly a program used to going 9-2 or 8-3 in the regular season slips to 7-4 or 6-5. Distasteful for sure, but no big deal in the long run. Because boosters and fans know the program will bounce back in the next year or two. The juniors and sophomores and redshirt freshmen who shouldered the load in the down year will be older and more experienced. The program has a solid foundation on which to build.

But what if a team, like the Bison, goes from being a national championship contender loaded with NFL prospects to a team that finishes 3-7? And judging from the way NDSU played against Augustana, that is not out of the question. Remember, the Bison still have North Dakota, Northern Colorado, Nebraska-Omaha remaining on the schedule. St. Cloud State and South Dakota State will not be easy games, either.

It’s one thing to slip to 6-4. It’s an entirely different thing to fall off the table.

What does it say about the state of your program if that happens?

It says that the foundation is not as strong as it needs to be. It says there are major gaps in recruiting classes.

It says there are miles to go before the program can be competitive at a national level in Division II, much less I-AA.

To be fair, the Bison have been devastated by injuries. The loss of Craig Tangen and Chuck Klabo, in particular, has been crushing.

But what should alarm Bison followers is that Bob Babich and his coaching staff have been forced to take the redshirts off eight true freshmen to fill out the roster. That would indicate Babich is missing juniors, sophomores and redshirt freshmen who could do the job.

That, in turn, would indicate the next couple of seasons won’t be so pretty, either.

Maybe we’re jumping the gun. Maybe the Bison will travel to Vermillion, S.D., Saturday and defeat South Dakota. Then maybe over the rest of the season Babich and his staff will coach their tails off and the players will play their tails off and the Bison will rally to finish with a 6-4 record.

Then we’ll be talking about what a great job Babich did and how the gritty Bison players overcame myriad obstacles to set the table for the future.

Maybe.

But if not, if NDSU finishes 3-7, we’ll be talking about how the Bison face the Herculean task of building a I-AA football program basically from scratch. And we’ll be asking if Babich is the coach to do it.

You have to believe that’s not exactly what the NDSU powers-that-be had in mind when they set a course toward Division I.

Readers can reach Mike McFeely at (701) 241-5580 or mmcfeely@forumcomm.com

[BisonInTexas]

I have been waiting for someone to post on this article.

First of all, I have no problem with people posting opinion pieces in a newspaper, the Forum or the Herald.

I do have a problem with the Foss article in the Herald, which was posed as an in-depth analysis of NDSU's prospects in D1, but was nothing more than a severly slanted piece of journalism. That is propaganda, not an opinion piece by Ryan Bakken or Mike McFeeley and that is why that particular article by Virg drew the protests of NDSU fans.

Second, if you are basing your decision on moving to DI on how your football team does in the first 4 weeks of the season, either (1)you won't be athletic director or president of the university for very long, or (2) you are a sports columnist spouting hypothetical situations. Look at it this way: You could reverse the logic of this piece (at the time it was written) and suggest that Augie could go undefeated this year and they should definitely consider going D1.

This is a long term decision and it matters not whether the Bison go 3-7 or win the national championship this year (the former is much more likely, unfortunately). Football programs can be revived (UND should know this better than anyone) and I think you can forgive the Bison one losing season every 30 years or so. The Bison struggles this year can be solved by hiring the right guy, if need be, but it doesn't affect the decision to go DI at all.

That being said, while you seemingly offer up this article as proof that the Herald isn't just UND's mouthpiece (i.e., Look! Even the Forum is doubtful of the move!), have you ever seen an article critical of the UND athletic department's actions in the Herald? Or better yet, have you ever seen an article supportive of an NDSU decision in the past?

Craig

[The_Sicatoka]

The Herald editorial board has been critical of UND. Yes, it's true.

That said, come on, both papers know where their bread is buttered. That's reality. It's called "circulation" and you do things to not harm it. UND changes stance you know the Herald will too.

The Forum has been cheerleading NDSU's move (save the McFeely piece) all along because all along we knew what NDSU's decision would be. Forum Communications makes to much money from NDSU Athletics to bite the hand that feeds it.

And yes, NDSU'd be stupid to change a decision based on a guy with a column in a newspaper.

[siouxrock]

2 WORDS THAT NDU SHOYLDNT GOTO D-1

THEY SUCK

[Guest]

does the sicatoka always argue on both sides of every issue? Either the Forum article is meant to fuel the argument against going D1 or it is simply an opinion about legitimate concerns facing the program as it makes the transition.

I believe it is a legit airing of concerns but has nothing to do with the propriety of the decision. The herold stance is clearly speaking against the propriety of the decision.

und is concerned about supporting a status quo that has artifically kept their athletic bugets low so they could afford hockey. Now that is changing and the squeeling will never end.

No longer will they have the benefit of a competitive atmosphere in their minor sports including football and basketball. They will officially become a 1 sport school or move up and compete with peers in all sports.

[tony]

Sicatoka says a lot of stuff and doesn't back it up (like the Forum cheerleading for DI).

One thing about this BB is that if you click on somebody's name you can get a list of all their posts so it's pretty easy to see what he's said about the DI move:

Posted an article from the Forum questioning NDSU's move to DI.

Brings up hockey a lot but doesn't say how this makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

Says that the Forum has been cheerleading for a DI move but hasn't backed it up with any links. You'd think there'd be at least a dozen links to chose from but he can't seem to find one. Of course, he doesn't explain why this makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

Says that big schools don't like sharing basketball money with small schools but doesn't say how this makes NDSU's move a bad one.

Comes up with some highly unlikely scenarios for what the NCAA might do in 2004 but doesn't say how this makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

Says college athletics should be eliminated but doesn't say how that makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

-------

None of the UND guys has ever posted anything saying why DII is going to be such a great place to be for the next twenty years, much less why it's going to be a better place than DI. All you have to do is look at the crappy way DII football has been run for the last ten years to see that it's getting worse every year.

[The_Sicatoka]

Both sides? Maybe.

Guys, you truly understand an issue when you can argue for both sides of it. That's how they train lawyers (not that I am one).

No, NDSU shouldn't do something because of a columnist's opinion.

Yes, NDSU should look at the saliency of points brought out by the columnist.

There is a subtle, but finite difference in those. You need to understand that. It's called "don't shoot the messenger" and don't dismiss the message because of who the messenger is.

Where am I at in all this?

I'm torn. I'd like to see UND go Division I. That's the rah-rah "Go Sioux" side of me. The rational pragmatist says the logistics (conference, finances) need to be better understood (up front risk management) before making such a move.

Remember, the taxpayers of this State ultimately have to pick up all red ink. (Argue here about self-sufficient athletics and local control, etcetera, but both UND and NDSU are owned by the State and the State is co-signer on all debts incurred. Period.)

Newspapers and local bias

The Forum (in-forum.com) has had a "D-I Decision" section on its front page for about a year. I'm yet to find an in-depth article interviewing strictly NDSU faculty, staff or students against the move. I find such quotes buried in amongst numerous pro quotes. I find numerous all pro articles in that mix. The nearest thing all anti is when The Forum printed Dr. Kupchella's opinion piece and that was "editorial" or "letter to the editor" more than news story. Guys, show me the hometown newspaper without a pro hometown bias. They all do it. They have to. It's called circulation and without it the paper's dead. Is any paper going to bite the hand that feeds them?

The Herald is echoing UND's words today. They'll do the same tomorrow. Can UND turn on a dime regarding their position? Sure they can. They can turn just as fast as NDSU did two years ago regarding adding D-I hockey. (Taylor has said hockey is off the radar for at least 10 years with this move.)

Heck, if they do turn on a dime, they can blame it on NDSU and SDSU. They've said all along "for now" and "unless the landscape changes." Those are classic hedge-your-bet words.

The NDSU Decision, part one

How is NDSU's decision a bad one?

They haven't managed the risks (conference, money, facilities) well up front.

Yes, they have studies and surveys. It looks wonderful on paper. Do they have the dollars in hand or new arena (for BB) or conference affiliation? No. They just expect it to happen because a report says it could.

UND: Action versus words and do they match regarding Division I and NDSU's position?

UND has the vote last spring by students allowing them to raise fees to turn Hyslop into a wellness center. Dollars in hand. A campus wellness center is a D-I requirement. Coincidence? I'd guess not.

UND has the plan to modify old REA into the new BB/VB facility. The same student vote allows some of the funds to go for that. There's the facilities plan. Add to that that the plan includes new athletic training facilities and there's a complete facilities plan.

Conference? UND appears to be taking the wait and see approach. What will SDSU do? That matters in terms of conference, travel, opponents, logistics, and costs.

Sound like a "get it done up front, then jump" approach to me. Sounds like managing risks up front to me.

If or when UND would jump, they'd have to worry only about raising operating revenue. All of the other pieces would be in place.

The NDSU Decision, part two

Right now NDSU has to come up with both the additional operating revenue AND the plans and funds to build an arena.

Conference? OK, I'll give you that one. You won't get a conference unless you are committed, unless your name is California-Davis. They got effectively begged to move up by their neighbors. Or unless there is a conference that is forming up that would like you to join. That's what may happen if SDSU moves up.

I'm not saying the decision by NDSU to go to D-I is wrong. I'm saying the decision, without solid things in hand, is logistically mis-timed.

Other pertinent points

The NCAA re-evaluates all of its divisions and requirements to be in the division in 2004. Do we know what'll come out of that? No. It's a long time until then. A lot can happen.

Remember, NDSU is using 2003-2004, not this season, as their provisional year. A school has to get its paperwork into the NCAA and the NCC by 09/01/03 to do that. That's still quite a while away. A lot can happen.

Patience.

The key question for JBB and tony

And if this is the right decision for NDSU, why do you care what UND or The Herald thinks? If it's the right decision you're doing the right things and you'll prove them wrong. Have at it.

PS - Sorry for the long rambling post. I probably couldn't read and digest it all in one pass either.