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Thread: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

  1. #231
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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Buthockey View Post
    So this lil pitch is prolly illegal too eh
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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by steelbison View Post
    Except it wasn’t close. The defender launched himself. Lead with his helmet and struck our guy in the helmet. That’s targeting 101 by any definition.


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    Since the runner wasn't considered defenseless, the defender has to initiate contact with the CROWN of his helmet, not just any part of the helmet (commonly referred to as Rule 9-1-3). And that is where this is debate/discussion. Yes his helmet made contact with the runner, but was it the area considered the crown? That is the actual definition of targeting. As an official I can't make up a definition different than what the rulebook defines just because it looks bad.

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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyBison View Post
    Since the runner wasn't considered defenseless, the defender has to initiate contact with the CROWN of his helmet, not just any part of the helmet (commonly referred to as Rule 9-1-3). And that is where this is debate/discussion. Yes his helmet made contact with the runner, but was it the area considered the crown? That is the actual definition of targeting. As an official I can't make up a definition different than what the rulebook defines just because it looks bad.
    There's nothing in the rule book about the initial point of contact being the ball-carrier's head and/or neck?

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  4. #234
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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by oldmantutters View Post
    There's nothing in the rule book about the initial point of contact being the ball-carrier's head and/or neck?

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    Great question!

    There are two different forms of targeting defined in the rule book. They are discussed enough by officials we actually refer them by their rule numbers!

    9-1-3 is initiating forcible contact with the crown of your helmet anywhere on the opponent. The crown is defined as the area above the facemask. This does require at least one indicator which includes launch, crouch, leading with the helmet or lowering the head before attacking with forcible contact.

    9-1-4 is initializing forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This also requires there be at least one indicator.

    When reviewing targeting the first question always asked is if the player who received the hit was defenseless. This is where you have to use the rulebook definition because there are some instances where you could argue they aren't defenseless by the Webster's definition, but they are by rule. For example, a passer any time after a change of possession. The runner in this case wasn't defenseless so there is no reason to continue evaluating this play for 9-1-4 targeting. But if you did determine the player was defenseless, then you need to determine of the contact was forcible to the head or neck area. Sometimes that doesn't apply because the brunt of the force was to the shoulder or body with secondary contact to the head or neck area.

    So if 9-1-4 is off then you have to look at 9-1-3 and it's all about the crown. If you don't determine the crown was used then you don't have to worry about forcible or indicators. My guess is that's where replay stopped on this one because the force was with the facemask and part of the forehead. That is where any debate around whether or not this was targeting should be. It's always been my understanding that the forehead was included only because there were situations where part of the crown along with the forehead wasn't called targeting because it wasn't entirely with the crown only. I never understood it to be a hit like this where it included the facemask and forehead. We may get some guidance on that this week. I think there is enough here for forcible and a crouch and/or launch so if the defender had lowered his head so the contact was entirely with the top and forehead this would be a no-doubter. But because he kept his head up they weren't able to add targeting in replay. If the conference did report to Coach Entz they would have wanted that called targeting they are interpreting the definition of the crown a little differently than I've heard in the past. That happens occasionally.

    Also note 9-1-3 was created more to protect the player doing the hitting than the person being hit. It's very dangerous for a player to hit something with the top of his head. It can compress the spinal column especially in the neck and cause permanent lifetime damage.

    Another change I'm curious to see if it ever changes is on the definition of defenseless. One of the examples is a ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped. If you take away the second part of that sentence this would be targeting because the elements required for 9-1-4 are there (forcible contact to head or neck initiated with the helmet and at least one indicator). The risk to that is you have a lot of players getting tackled by a second player while the first player is already grasping them. You probably end up with more targeting fouls and not less which nobody wants. The idea is if progress is not stopped the ball carrier is still fighting for yardage and can still protect themselves.

    Here ends the lesson on targeting. Believe it or not we process all those items in 1-2 seconds when we see these kinds of hits on the field.

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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    I know people complain about the officials often, but it is amazing how much they do get right when everything is happening so fast. That's where replay comes in handy for things like trying to determine if the ball came out 0.1 seconds before or after the runner was down.

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyBison View Post
    Believe it or not we process all those items in 1-2 seconds when we see these kinds of hits on the field.
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  6. #236
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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
    I know people complain about the officials often, but it is amazing how much they do get right when everything is happening so fast. That's where replay comes in handy for things like trying to determine if the ball came out 0.1 seconds before or after the runner was down.
    Right. People are so often dicks to the refs. It is awful. Even at the youth level, I've found myself barking pretty hard because of what I thought was a shitty call and then caught myself bitching basically at a kid that frankly is just doing his best. We have a major problem with getting people to officiate games and we really need to treat them like they have worth. The entire game doesn't function without them and they're usually running around 99.9% perfect in terms of the time on the field. I run the chain crew for our HS home games so I've gotten to know many of the officials locally. It amazes me how much they're able to shrug off the dumb criticism.

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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by OrygunBison View Post
    Right. People are so often dicks to the refs. It is awful. Even at the youth level, I've found myself barking pretty hard because of what I thought was a shitty call and then caught myself bitching basically at a kid that frankly is just doing his best. We have a major problem with getting people to officiate games and we really need to treat them like they have worth. The entire game doesn't function without them and they're usually running around 99.9% perfect in terms of the time on the field. I run the chain crew for our HS home games so I've gotten to know many of the officials locally. It amazes me how much they're able to shrug off the dumb criticism.

    Indy, you're a saint for doing this.
    Especially at the youth level. That's where we lose a lot of our newer officials.

    It truly is a passion for many (not all!) and I'm overly passionate. It's a great group of men and women to be associated with and trying to be perfect it's an impossible goal. Thank you all for being mostly willing to let me explain the rules and the intent and philosophy behind them. Most people here are very kind and I think I've built a level of trust with Bville. That's actually very hard to do! Harder than being an official. Some of you are downright nuts!

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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyBison View Post
    Especially at the youth level. That's where we lose a lot of our newer officials.

    It truly is a passion for many (not all!) and I'm overly passionate. It's a great group of men and women to be associated with and trying to be perfect it's an impossible goal. Thank you all for being mostly willing to let me explain the rules and the intent and philosophy behind them. Most people here are very kind and I think I've built a level of trust with Bville. That's actually very hard to do! Harder than being an official. Some of you are downright nuts!

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    Always appreciate the insight.

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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyBison View Post
    Especially at the youth level. That's where we lose a lot of our newer officials.

    It truly is a passion for many (not all!) and I'm overly passionate. It's a great group of men and women to be associated with and trying to be perfect it's an impossible goal. Thank you all for being mostly willing to let me explain the rules and the intent and philosophy behind them. Most people here are very kind and I think I've built a level of trust with Bville. That's actually very hard to do! Harder than being an official. Some of you are downright nuts!

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    Default Re: UNI Post Game Thoughts & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyBison View Post
    Especially at the youth level. That's where we lose a lot of our newer officials.

    It truly is a passion for many (not all!) and I'm overly passionate. It's a great group of men and women to be associated with and trying to be perfect it's an impossible goal. Thank you all for being mostly willing to let me explain the rules and the intent and philosophy behind them. Most people here are very kind and I think I've built a level of trust with Bville. That's actually very hard to do! Harder than being an official. Some of you are downright nuts!

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    I love and look forward to what you bring here. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and passion!

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