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Thread: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldmantutters View Post
    Let's face it, we are stuck with the fabulous Fargodome for a long time to come. And while I think it's a boring building, I'm a hell of a lot more disappointed in the SHAC. I think football is diminishing returns in FCS or FBS. Basketball is where progress could be made, but now we will be locked into the SHAC for the next 30 years. *sigh*

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    What's wrong with the SHAC? I've heard that it's tight seating. Damned uncomfortable.

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  2. #162
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaBisonFan View Post
    What's wrong with the SHAC? I've heard that it's tight seating. Damned uncomfortable.
    SHAC is piss poor layout. Seats are terrible. It is so D2. Embarassing. We should have had a bowl setup like USD only bigger. The SHAC is NOT a recruiting advantage. Tried to stick 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag.

  3. #163
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrygunBison View Post
    I can see that you're digging deep on this comparison. Unfortunately, it is completely irrelevant unless you were to take the plans and have them bid in October 2021 with an estimated construction start around Spring 2023. Even then, that would not account for the further escalation that will come between now and the time that it takes to design the structure, approve the structure, and capitalize the project. It'll probably take 5 years to get that all together. I'm an architect that deals with construction cost every single day in one way or another. Every contractor I know, including the big guys, are on their heels and have little confidence in where construction costs are going. Also, supply chains are broken all over the industry and while that should improve, it is hard to predict with any certainty where the supply chains continue to be a problem in the 10-year horizon...which will likely be plenty, all things considered.

    My educated guess is that this would be a $300-320M outdoor facility for 30,000 seats and middle of the road amenities. If it absolutely MUST be indoors, it'll add $150M or so. It isn't just putting the roof on, which would certainly be expensive. It's everything else needed to create a comfortable, safe building.
    Land makes a big difference. NDSU Donating Fargodome land certainly keeps the cost. Until they do a study, we're all just pulling numbers out of our ass. Right now steel prices and wood are high, but now wood is starting to drop again so who knows. I do know that the Fargodome valued full replacement cost at 144 million. Obviously they wouldn't have to require land and lay down infrastructure so who knows. Big difference in the amount of steel needed for a 30-35K seat stadium and a 50-70k seat stadium. Pulling numbers out of my ass, I think $400 million should cover it with donated land. Who knows but it's certainly an interesting discussion
    .


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  4. #164
    kab1one is offline Senior Member Gets their mail at the West Parking Lot
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by PattyBison View Post
    Didn't they con everyone into voting for the special assessment? They said "it would never be assessed, it was just to get lower bond rates." And people fell for it.
    You are correct. Instead of 1 piece of land, 1 vote in which 70% of the parcels owners voted no, it was based on assessed valued or the land or size of land. City and county of Fargo and Cass in that regards held over 50% of the "voting shares" thus controlled the outcome.

  5. #165
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by tony View Post
    I'm counting on a huge advancement in building materials and then we'll just have nanobots build a 30,000 seat stadium out by processing CO2 sucked out of the air (and possibly slow moving pedestrians and squirrels.)

    The stadium's solar roof will also generate enough electricity to power all of Fargo.
    Elon, is that you?

    Seriously though, I could beleive there will be some significant breakthroughs in technology that could drastically change things.
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  6. #166
    kab1one is offline Senior Member Gets their mail at the West Parking Lot
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by HerdBot View Post
    Land makes a big difference. NDSU Donating Fargodome land certainly keeps the cost. Until they do a study, we're all just pulling numbers out of our ass. Right now steel prices and wood are high, but now wood is starting to drop again so who knows. I do know that the Fargodome valued full replacement cost at 144 million. Obviously they wouldn't have to require land and lay down infrastructure so who knows. Big difference in the amount of steel needed for a 30-35K seat stadium and a 50-70k seat stadium. Pulling numbers out of my ass, I think $400 million should cover it with donated land. Who knows but it's certainly an interesting discussion
    My math. Land is a rounding error in this project. 10 acre site (target field is a smaller footprint), 442,800 square feet. Land at 10/foot is $4.5 million. If land is 15/square which is expensive by Fargo standards that is only $6 million on a $300 million build.

  7. #167
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by kab1one View Post
    Fargo and Cass County doesn't realize how hand cuff they are for next 50 years due to the diversion.

    The original plan was for $2 billion. Basically a 1/3 from the state, 1/3 from the feds, 1/3 from the sales tax which was slammed through the taxpayers (that is another discussion).

    Today, the diversion is $4 billion (being conservative), state and federal money hasn't changed. State may have even dropped.

    The sales to fund the project originally included a growth in Fargo/Cass County sales tax of 3% a year to infinity and beyond. Since the city has started collecting sales tax, there has not been a 3% income year to year. this was pre covid. Sales taxes were down due to agriculture and oil (Fargo had more oil activity than one might expect).

    Dirty little secret number 1. To get the Private (property owner) public (government) partnership in place to fund the sales tax component. The city father pledge special assessments to every property in the diversion district. So when, no if, but when sales tax collections don't meet the debt payment. We all get a new diversion special assessment.

    The other dirty little secret. Bonding. The projections used 1-2% for bonds. At some point over the next 75 years of repayment, interest rates will rise and carry costs is going to increase. Maybe 30 years down the road.

    So because of this ticking time bomb I don't see how the city of Fargo, West Fargo or the county of Cass can contribute anything to a project anywhere. Except for water from out west that will insure continue growth to fund the existing ponzi scheme of the diversion.
    What a disaster. All because they just can't build West, away from teh river. It has to be in "Fargo".
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  8. #168
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by kab1one View Post
    Fargo and Cass County doesn't realize how hand cuff they are for next 50 years due to the diversion.

    The original plan was for $2 billion. Basically a 1/3 from the state, 1/3 from the feds, 1/3 from the sales tax which was slammed through the taxpayers (that is another discussion).

    Today, the diversion is $4 billion (being conservative), state and federal money hasn't changed. State may have even dropped.

    The sales to fund the project originally included a growth in Fargo/Cass County sales tax of 3% a year to infinity and beyond. Since the city has started collecting sales tax, there has not been a 3% income year to year. this was pre covid. Sales taxes were down due to agriculture and oil (Fargo had more oil activity than one might expect).

    Dirty little secret number 1. To get the Private (property owner) public (government) partnership in place to fund the sales tax component. The city father pledge special assessments to every property in the diversion district. So when, no if, but when sales tax collections don't meet the debt payment. We all get a new diversion special assessment.

    The other dirty little secret. Bonding. The projections used 1-2% for bonds. At some point over the next 75 years of repayment, interest rates will rise and carry costs is going to increase. Maybe 30 years down the road.

    So because of this ticking time bomb I don't see how the city of Fargo, West Fargo or the county of Cass can contribute anything to a project anywhere. Except for water from out west that will insure continue growth to fund the existing ponzi scheme of the diversion.
    I wouldn't say the sales tax was "slammed through the voters." It got like 85% yes votes. The tax will run as long as it takes and could in theory go until 2084 as a guarantee to keep the bond rates where they want them. It's kind of tough to project tax revenues when our population keeps going up but historically the tax increase been about 5% per year. The growth slowing was actually internet sales, but they fixed that and the state and city now collect that sales tax on online purchases. I assume growth is why the original Fargodome tax was paid off early.

    Things would have to go pretty bad for specials to be used and keep in mind, there are other sources of paying down the debt. For example: The city owns a ton of river front property that they had to buy for flood projects. They not only paid for the land, they are collecting zero tax on it. But now they are selling these properties and the proceeds go to the diversion fund and then they will collect property taxes. Examples include the Mid America Steel site, the Park West spot, and a few others. But another benefit is flood insurance will no longer be required.

    I think the city could see massive growth and tax increases since we're now on an even playing field. Pre diversion, it certainly had an impact on people and businesses putting big money into a city that could have ended up looking like Grand Forks who took 2 decades to recover.

    As far as a ponzi scheme... that's a different discussion for a different day but I tend to agree most government is a ponzi scheme
    .


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  9. #169
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gully View Post
    What a disaster. All because they just can't build West, away from teh river. It has to be in "Fargo".
    Been saying for years- State of Minnesota can’t NOT pay for stadiums/domes!! Get a contingency of bison 1 issue voters in Minnetota!!! Build it in Moorhead if need be. Still be a steller coup, and possibly engage the ND legislation/city of Fargo in a real way.

    Don’t think stadium is the key to conference/fbs invites as it once was. Culture has changed. Viewing on TV has so few barriers plus covid etc. confident the size of the dome will continue to meet the demands of attendance for years, and the building is unique.

    Planning 10 years out, sure. But to accommodate fans 10 years in the future the experience will need to be good enough for people to invest the time/money/effort to go to the game vs. simply watching on whatever technology is available at that point. Fan numbers may increase some, but the Cameron Indoor has been discussed in comparison at length. Rather turn a 10% away during good years versus run 10% empty ever. TV is the medium that matters. Make the new dome with heavy consideration of making TV production look great. Get fans (sponsors) on TV- in a natural way. Shots of the heavy hitter donors. Show them OFF. Get them business and appreciate them for donating.

    -needs to be Indoor with PLENTY of wifi/cell service available. 50 degrees isn’t BAD for a football game, but when hauling the kids/wife etc. let it be COMFORTABLE. No worries of rain/wind. Also removes variables for the team in half their games plus. Practice outside, be prepared to navigate the variables while away- but limit them for home games/extended future FBS playoff games which NDSU would ultimately be betting on anyway.

    -making TAILGATING as easy, available, and comfortable as possible is probably the number one opportunity to compete with the bars/home parties as a premier experience/networking. Plenty of cell/wifi available here as well.

    -soft gambling?? fantasy football for FCS? Get more fans engaged with what rest of league is doing. Forum providing/creating some “hypothetical” gaming options for FCS gameday across the league. Make it easy for everyday fans to place some bets on wearing other teams jersey…. [emoji6]. Hasn’t hurt the NFL. Something to drive engagement while we sit on pins and needles for the elusive invite.

    -FCS gambling options at casinos and create some agreements for Bussing to and from mahnomen, spirit lake, Dakota magic.

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  10. #170
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    Default Re: Off topic: Ideal size of a new NDSU football stadium?

    Quote Originally Posted by HerdBot View Post
    I wouldn't say the sales tax was "slammed through the voters." It got like 85% yes votes. The tax will run as long as it takes and could in theory go until 2084 as a guarantee to keep the bond rates where they want them. It's kind of tough to project tax revenues when our population keeps going up but historically the tax increase been about 5% per year. The growth slowing was actually internet sales, but they fixed that and the state and city now collect that sales tax on online purchases. I assume growth is why the original Fargodome tax was paid off early.

    Things would have to go pretty bad for specials to be used and keep in mind, there are other sources of paying down the debt. For example: The city owns a ton of river front property that they had to buy for flood projects. They not only paid for the land, they are collecting zero tax on it. But now they are selling these properties and the proceeds go to the diversion fund and then they will collect property taxes. Examples include the Mid America Steel site, the Park West spot, and a few others. But another benefit is flood insurance will no longer be required.

    I think the city could see massive growth and tax increases since we're now on an even playing field. Pre diversion, it certainly had an impact on people and businesses putting big money into a city that could have ended up looking like Grand Forks who took 2 decades to recover.

    As far as a ponzi scheme... that's a different discussion for a different day but I tend to agree most government is a ponzi scheme
    Which tax??? I believe there are 3 sales taxes for flood protection right now. And they did slam them through. Everytime there was a spring event, they put them up to vote because people were scared and tired. Denny admitted they did it that way intentionally. So that left little to no time for actual analysis if you don't consider "we need every dollar we can get" to be analysis. Then on top of that, they did the special assessment.....

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