Can someone explain why that offsides on fourth down wasn't a false start on UN_?

[1998braves64]

Plus it was the running back lined up as QB. My opinion NDSU got caught in "scramble" (as they were shifting LB/DL to plug gaps as it appeared UND was going to ram it up the middle with the RB in a sneak play) mode a bit as it appeared they were going to make an imminent snap and with hard count. If center had actually snapped the ball on the first hard count probably would have been an illegal shift/procedure penalty as players shifting need to set for 1 second I think it actually is (not 2 as mentioned here). The hawks lineman made the right call in jumping due to the DL in the neutral zone is "legal" for them to do. A lot to process there and even hard counts get NFL DL to jump in similar situations. 4th and 1 you really have to be ready for either action hard count or a quick count and sneak/dive up the 0/1 gaps.

I suppose Entz could have a gripe that he started his hard count way before the 1 second set period... not sure if there is anything against that though? That could be an arguable gray area that I don't know of anything in regards to that, wonder if that was part of discussion they had prior to calling it or whether all UND players had come to a full stop set for 1 second prior to their OL jumping to get the offsides call. Maybe Indy can clear that up for us too.

[NDSU]

Plus it was the running back lined up as QB. My opinion NDSU got caught in "scramble" (as they were shifting LB/DL to plug gaps as it appeared UND was going to ram it up the middle with the RB in a sneak play) mode a bit as it appeared they were going to make an imminent snap and with hard count. If center had actually snapped the ball on the first hard count probably would have been an illegal shift/procedure penalty as players shifting need to set for 1 second I think it actually is (not 2 as mentioned here). The hawks lineman made the right call in jumping due to the DL in the neutral zone is "legal" for them to do. A lot to process there and even hard counts get NFL DL to jump in similar situations. 4th and 1 you really have to be ready for either action hard count or a quick count and sneak/dive up the 0/1 gaps.

I suppose Entz could have a gripe that he started his hard count way before the 1 second set period... not sure if there is anything against that though? That could be an arguable gray area that I don't know of anything in regards to that, wonder if that was part of discussion they had prior to calling it or whether all UND players had come to a full stop set for 1 second prior to their OL jumping to get the offsides call. Maybe Indy can clear that up for us too.

Pretty sure it was the backup QB and not a RB.

[1998braves64]

Pretty sure it was the backup QB and not a RB.

My bad thought it was #26 but rewatched was #14. Overall my point is still the same though.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL on a bullet train from Hillsboro.

[thebigund]

How is this even a thread? The fake punt rule discussion is actually interesting. This one was just obvious.

[WeAreThePride]

How is this even a thread? The fake punt rule discussion is actually interesting. This one was just obvious.

You were born with complete knowledge of the college football rulebook?

[IndyBison]

I enjoyed watching you guys try to unravel this play and apply what you know (and in some cases don't know). Most of the comments were pretty intelligent and attempted to use rules logic that made sense.

There are several different things to cover on a play like this and it's one of those things you have to study and review and observe and get wrong and study and review and get wrong again before you probably truly understand it and can enforce it efficiently on the field as it happens. I'll try to simplify as much as possible so you get the basics. Of course it still got wordy because there is so much here you need to cover.

Definitions (these are very important because I use each term below and it critical know exactly what they mean)
Shift - movement from one set position to another before the snap
Motion - moving from a set position and still moving at the snap (including chopping your feet the snap)
Lineman - shoulders parallel to the line of scrimmage and breaking the waist of the snapper (offense); lined up within 1 yard of the defensive line of scrimmage (defense)
Back - not breaking the waist of the nearest lineman (keep in mind tackle's waist could legally be further back than the snapper's waist)
False start - words or actions before the snap that simulates action at the snap (lots of philosophy and judgement here)
Offsides - player from either team lined up in the neutral zone at the snap, defensive player enters the neutral zone and either the ball is snapped or an adjacent offensive lineman react, or a defensive player enters the neutral zone and contacts an offensive lineman. The first two situations are live ball fouls and the last two situations are dead ball fouls
Line of scrimmage - there are 2 lines of scrimmage (most don't realize that). The offense and defense each have one and it's defined by either nose of the football. The area between the lines of scrimmage are
Neutral zone - the area between the 2 lines of scrimmage

Legal motion - only one player on offense can be in motion at the snap and they must have started that motion as a snap and they can't be moving forward at the snap
Illegal motion - the two most common examples are a player moving forward at the snap or two players in motion at the snap. The first happens when a player goes in motion and bows their motion so they are moving forward at the snap. The second happens when you have a miscommunication and two different backs go in motion and the ball is snapped. One of them likely wasn't supposed to be in motion in that play. If a back goes in motion and turns up before the snap they would likely be flagged for a false start rather than an illegal motion because this action they would normally do at the snap.
Illegal shift - all players on offense must be set for 1 second prior to the snap. A player may then legally go in motion. If a second player shifts while that player is in motion you have an illegal shift. A common example of this is a back goes in motion and a lineman shifts from a 2-point stance to a 3-point stance. Another way is a player shifts from one position to another and before he stops for 1 second another player goes in motion, they are guilty of an illegal shift. If either of these happens the only way the offense can correct them before the snap is the back in motion has to stop for 1 second before the snap. This makes his action a shift rather than motion as defined above.

If all 11 players don't get set for 1 second prior to the snap it's technically an illegal shift, but they converted it to a false start to prevent a team from rushing to the line and snapping it before everyone gets set and gaining an advantage from it. This happened several years ago in a bowl game. Only the snapper and QB were in position at the snap. IIRC they were also running their FG unit on so they were guilty of an illegal substitution for 17 players on the field. It only cost them 5 yards which kept them in FG range and they were able to get their FG unit lined up after enforcement and before the game clock restarted. They made the game tying FG and won in OT. By making this a false start it's now possible for a 10-second runoff.

Thanks for sharing a link to the video location. Players can be moving forward while shifting or in motion before the snap. They just can't be in motion at the snap. We had a coach screaming last weekend that it should have been a foul because a wing back shifted from a back to an end on the line. He thought that was a foul. It's perfectly legal as long as he sets for 1 second prior to the snap. The movement here could be considered a false start if it's abrupt and simulates a snap. I don't see that here. The fact the defense doesn't move until after the shifts are complete is an indication they didn't see it as action simulating the snap either. I saw no sudden movement or jerking by the back behind the snapper that could have been a false start. They are allowed some movement but if it's pronounced it could be considered a false start. There is no black and white guidance there, but if something is close we'll try to warn them first so they can correct it in the future. It's rare so it had better be obviously a foul. In this play I can't tell if the defenders contact the offensive player. That alone would be enough for offsides. They appear to still be in the neutral zone when the offensive players react. On 3rd or 4th and less than 5 yards to go you are going to scrutinize this type of action much more than any other down and distance. In this play though I didn't see any movement by either back that simulates action at the snap. The offense is definitely set for 1 second before the defender jumps. There is no requirement the offense has to be set for 1 second before the offense starts there cadence. They can be doing it while they are moving. The offensive players who jumped are adjacent to the defender in the neutral zone. If the Ts or TEs or any back had jumped then it would be a false start.

Several comments on 1 or 2 seconds above and as you can see the rule is 1 second. I should emphasize in most cases the 1 second is satisfied with a discernible stop. There is not way to measure .7 seconds as a foul and 1.1 seconds as legal. The back who moves under center you probably require a little bigger stop so he doesn't use momentum at the snap.

The front 4 officials (R, U, H, L) have to watch for all of this before every snap in addition to verifying the offense has no more than 11 players and they are in a legal formation (no more than 4 backs) and identify if any players with eligible numbers are linemen but not an end (commonly referred to as "covered up"). The latter is legal in NCAA (not NFL), but that player is not an eligible receiver and can't do downfield if a legal pass is thrown beyond the neutral zone. The wings also have to read the formation to determine which offensive player is their key at the snap (defensive players appreciate that). The R has the QB and usually opposite tackle. The U has G-C-G. The deep wings (F/S) have the widest eligible receiver on their side. The weak side wing (determined by number of eligible receivers outside the tackles at the snap) has the 2nd receiver in. The strong side wing as the back next to the QB unless there are trips. Then he has the middle eligible receiver. The B has the inside eligible receiver outside the T on the strong side (usually a TE). If the formation is balanced the strong side is considered the side with the L. Once the play develops the H/L/S/F/B move to zone for eligible receivers in their area. This is why you may see a flag from the B 25 yards away on action on or by a TE near the LOS. That's his key and the guy he's watching at the snap.

[IndyBison]

How is this even a thread? The fake punt rule discussion is actually interesting. This one was just obvious.

This is actually much more complex with a lot more things in play as you can see by my reply. We could spend a couple hours in a clinic discussing all the rules in play here and watching several different examples of plays. Every scrimmage play of every game could be looked at to review these rules. The fake punt play is fairly cut and dry. The only judgement is based on whether the pass is high enough to meet the criteria of the rule (a player throwing a quick pass over the middle would not absolve the defender from DPI) or possibly if the action on the receiver was holding rather potential PI. Watch 3 or 4 examples and you got it. And it very rarely actually happens. I think I've only seen it once or twice in a game I've worked in 12 years of college officiating. It's important to note the same rule doesn't exist in HS, but by philosophy you probably aren't going to call it as tight as a regular passing play.

[Professor Chaos]

How is this even a thread? The fake punt rule discussion is actually interesting. This one was just obvious.

We could get into the missed targeting call on Zeb's first interception if that's more interesting???

[EC8CH]

We could get into the missed targeting call on Zeb's first interception if that's more interesting???

I didn't think it was targeting.

[Professor Chaos]

I didn't think it was targeting.

Looked like it easily could've been interpreted as forcible contact above the shoulders to me from this angle: https://youtu.be/-mmu_3xqFyA?t=1166

Could even argue hit was crown of the helmet to Watson's facemask... at least I thought it deserved a look from the replay official.

I still remember being floored by the hit Jabril Cox was ejected for back in the 2017 UNI game: https://youtu.be/wd_K_DSYXqo?t=7262. But in that case they followed the rule to the letter... in this case they did not.