2021 Verbal: Cole Payton

[23Bison]

Can’t one just watch a season from Messingham’s play calling and develop an offense of of that? My worry is that all of the plays are there to choose from but once game time comes around the ol’ blinders come on and out comes the same 5 plays that we see all the time.

[tjamz]

Exactly. By all stats, Cam was better than both the true Frosh QBs at UND and SDSU, and his HS competition was as good or better than theirs. We had/have coaching/scheme issues for sure. And, to those that disagree, I’ll “footnote” the Game-day threads here and all the posts/comments about the play calling. Stick/Wentz/Lance wouldn’t have done much better IMO, other than just say eff it, and either call a different play or take off running on every pass play that didn’t develop, which was 90%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't disagree on the scheme issues. But I wonder how much the playbook was trimmed down for both Cam (and maybe Zeb) in an attempt to keep our run first identity while also not overwhelming the QB?

Where Brock, Carson, Easton and Trey would look at the defense, call out their protections and/or switch to play B or C I'm willing to bet that Cam wasn't personally ready for that jump yet after he was thrust into the lineup due to an inaccurate, inadequate QB ahead of him that everyone thought was going to perform at a high level.

Now, it's on the coaches to work with what they have as well and come up with play designs and options that he can execute. So that falls back on the coaches for sure.

I can see a serviceable backup QB role for Cam in the future (assuming QPII and/or Cole Payton retain the starting role we all think they will have) and maybe even challenging for a starting role if and when he gets more command of the playbook and verbiage

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[GreenfieldBison]

Everybody talking about skill players with inadequate skills, play callers with no plays, schemes that just weren't very schemy etc, etc. To my eye our OL play just wasn't up to the standard we have become accustomed to. I think it all starts there. No doubt these other faults exists as well but I bet all skill guys look less skilled when they have a second or two less to work with. Play callers have one or two fewer plays they can call when they know that it just can't be executed.

Don't know. I'm not much of an xo person but that seems like the place to start to me. And for sure if you are trying to run through the A gap and not getting at least a couple of yards to begin with then there is perhaps no reason to believe you are going to be getting the 4 and 5 in the third and fourth like we used to do, so try calling something else.

[WeAreThePride]

Can’t one just watch a season from Messingham’s play calling and develop an offense of of that? My worry is that all of the plays are there to choose from but once game time comes around the ol’ blinders come on and out comes the same 5 plays that we see all the time.

Man that final Stick year was glorious. I'm convinced that play calling alone won us 3 games more than we would have under the usual OC scheme, including the Natty.

[scottietohottie]

Can’t one just watch a season from Messingham’s play calling and develop an offense of of that? My worry is that all of the plays are there to choose from but once game time comes around the ol’ blinders come on and out comes the same 5 plays that we see all the time.

And four of those plays are just variations of the same play and the fifth one only gets used right before halftime.

[Professor Chaos]

Man that final Stick year was glorious. I'm convinced that play calling alone won us 3 games more than we would have under the usual OC scheme, including the Natty.

It's easy to look good calling plays when you have a bevy of NFL talent. That team had either a rostered or practice squad NFL player at QB, WR (Shepherd), TE (Ellefson), RB (Bruce), and multiple O-lineman (Radunz, Z Johnson, T Volson, maybe C Volson too). They had an amazing offense that year mainly because they were supremely talented not because Messingham was a wizard.

It's not like Messingham was Lincoln Riley. He wasn't a particularly successful OC at Iowa St or Montana St before he got to NDSU and K-State hasn't been lighting it up since he got there either. I think Roehl could learn a lot from him though, mainly how to break tendencies and how to let your players take advantage of mismatched defenders. That all takes time and experience though, you can't just watch another OC and expect to be better without understanding all the nuance that goes into calling plays. If that were the case there would be a lot fewer shitty OCs than there are.

[ByeSonBusiness]

Exactly. By all stats, Cam was better than both the true Frosh QBs at UND and SDSU, and his HS competition was as good or better than theirs. We had/have coaching/scheme issues for sure. And, to those that disagree, I’ll “footnote” the Game-day threads here and all the posts/comments about the play calling. Stick/Wentz/Lance wouldn’t have done much better IMO, other than just say eff it, and either call a different play or take off running on every pass play that didn’t develop, which was 90%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably. Still not the guy I'd want starting the next 4 years though. Think NDSU has proven it has a higher ceiling at that position than I think Cam is able to reach. Just my opinion.

Seems very early to say he's not able to meet the standard. None of those NDSU's other QBs have had to play as true freshmen. And the bar many here seem to have for QB at NDSU is just not sustainable. From 2013-2020, there is not a single team other than maybe Clemson who has had as much success at the quarterback position, and their success isn't sustainable either.

Frankly, he seems like precisely the type of QB NDSU should strive for. He had offers from the rest of the conference. He's from our part of the country. On paper its a great fit. He showed very good potential throughout the season. He got one start and had a tough day. It is what it is. I think everyone here would be pretty pissed if their customers/employers formed their opinion on your potential based on a rough day at work in your first couple months on the job.

Quincy Patterson hasn't shown anything to indicate he's going to be a Rockstar, and this Payton guy hasn't played a snap in college.

I'll defer to CAS and others on how much was Roehl's fault or the players fault. I do have vivid memories of Brady Quinn being trash as a freshman before Charlie Weis turned him into a Heisman finalist.

Tl;dr: doesn't make sense to write off because of one bad start while simultaneously hyping guys who have also had only a bad start (Patterson) and a high school senior who has not played a down in college.

[EC8CH]

Seems very early to say he's not able to meet the standard. None of those NDSU's other QBs have had to play as true freshmen. And the bar many here seem to have for QB at NDSU is just not sustainable. From 2013-2020, there is not a single team other than maybe Clemson who has had as much success at the quarterback position, and their success isn't sustainable either.

Frankly, he seems like precisely the type of QB NDSU should strive for. He had offers from the rest of the conference. He's from our part of the country. On paper its a great fit. He showed very good potential throughout the season. He got one start and had a tough day. It is what it is. I think everyone here would be pretty pissed if their customers/employers formed their opinion on your potential based on a rough day at work in your first couple months on the job.

Quincy Patterson hasn't shown anything to indicate he's going to be a Rockstar, and this Payton guy hasn't played a snap in college.

I'll defer to CAS and others on how much was Roehl's fault or the players fault. I do have vivid memories of Brady Quinn being trash as a freshman before Charlie Weis turned him into a Heisman finalist.

Tl;dr: doesn't make sense to write off because of one bad start while simultaneously hyping guys who have also had only a bad start (Patterson) and a high school senior who has not played a down in college.

Doesn't have the arm or running ability. Game manager potential but I don't see play maker talent.

[reformedUNDfan]

I don't disagree on the scheme issues. But I wonder how much the playbook was trimmed down for both Cam (and maybe Zeb) in an attempt to keep our run first identity while also not overwhelming the QB?

Where Brock, Carson, Easton and Trey would look at the defense, call out their protections and/or switch to play B or C I'm willing to bet that Cam wasn't personally ready for that jump yet after he was thrust into the lineup due to an inaccurate, inadequate QB ahead of him that everyone thought was going to perform at a high level.

Now, it's on the coaches to work with what they have as well and come up with play designs and options that he can execute. So that falls back on the coaches for sure.

I can see a serviceable backup QB role for Cam in the future (assuming QPII and/or Cole Payton retain the starting role we all think they will have) and maybe even challenging for a starting role if and when he gets more command of the playbook and verbiage

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

the problem with this analysis is that the O abandoned the easy pass plays, like TE drag routes, in favor of an outside deep passing game

[ByeSonBusiness]

Doesn't have the arm or running ability. Game manager potential but I don't see play maker talent.

Feels a bit early to make that assessment. Can still be a bad man while game managing.