Butler Post Game Thoughts/Discussion

[Hammersmith]

The most the tickets were sold though. A lot of people have stopped trying to get tickets because the 'know' they can't even when they can. I think the best thing NDSU could have done a couple years back would have been to allow some amount of tailgating during the game to have a place that isn't constrained by the dome that could keep growing on game day. Make a game day the thing you did even if you didn't get tickets, and maybe you'll find tickets to get into the dome, maybe you don't.

He's actually talking about tickets sold. I think there were only two real sellouts last year(>95% tickets sold). But it doesn't make his point correct. What you're seeing with attendance recently is NDSU finding the sweet spot between supply, demand, and price. With a fixed supply, NDSU has been raising the price of seat fees until the demand of people willing to pay the higher prices equals the fixed supply. That way they're not leaving money on the table. Economics 101.

In a new stadium*, the supply would change, so you'd also change the prices. The top prices would stay about the same because there are only so many seats between the 40s and low down. But the mid-range prices would need to come down, and lots more low-price seats would be added. This would bring large numbers of priced-out fans back to the games, and a new supply/demand/price balance would need to be ironed out. What would the final demand be? Don't know. But it would easily be in the low-20s with lowered or no seat fees in the endzones. Remember that there are few if any FCS schools that have higher ticket/seat fee prices than NDSU; and not all that many G5 programs either.


*No, I don't have a clue where the money would come from. This is just a hypothetical to show the point.**

**This is also assuming an enclosed stadium as a replacement. Go with an outdoor stadium and the demand drops through the floor over the long-term. Season ticket sales suffer because people don't want to commit to an entire season when half of the games are miserable. And without season tickets, there go the seat fees that are driving the money bus. At a guess, I bet with an outdoor stadium you'd have barely larger average attendance than now, but with a big drop in overall revenue.

[reformedUNDfan]

He's actually talking about tickets sold. I think there were only two real sellouts last year(>95% tickets sold). But it doesn't make his point correct. What you're seeing with attendance recently is NDSU finding the sweet spot between supply, demand, and price. With a fixed supply, NDSU has been raising the price of seat fees until the demand of people willing to pay the higher prices equals the fixed supply. That way they're not leaving money on the table. Economics 101.

In a new stadium*, the supply would change, so you'd also change the prices. The top prices would stay about the same because there are only so many seats between the 40s and low down. But the mid-range prices would need to come down, and lots more low-price seats would be added. This would bring large numbers of priced-out fans back to the games, and a new supply/demand/price balance would need to be ironed out. What would the final demand be? Don't know. But it would easily be in the low-20s with lowered or no seat fees in the endzones. Remember that there are few if any FCS schools that have higher ticket/seat fee prices than NDSU; and not all that many G5 programs either.


*No, I don't have a clue where the money would come from. This is just a hypothetical to show the point.**

**This is also assuming an enclosed stadium as a replacement. Go with an outdoor stadium and the demand drops through the floor over the long-term. Season ticket sales suffer because people don't want to commit to an entire season when half of the games are miserable. And without season tickets, there go the seat fees that are driving the money bus. At a guess, I bet with an outdoor stadium you'd have barely larger average attendance than now, but with a big drop in overall revenue.

economics 101 is notoriously horseshit.

what your seeing is just as much that people aren't trying to get tickets because they know they can't get ahold of them

[GreenfieldBison]

Kansas is the same way. Tailgating goes from early morning to late in the evening.

Used to be the same in Austin. Not sure if it still is that way there.


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[Christopher Moen]

economics 101 is notoriously horseshit.

what your seeing is just as much that people aren't trying to get tickets because they know they can't get ahold of them

[bisonp]

He's actually talking about tickets sold. I think there were only two real sellouts last year(>95% tickets sold). But it doesn't make his point correct. What you're seeing with attendance recently is NDSU finding the sweet spot between supply, demand, and price. With a fixed supply, NDSU has been raising the price of seat fees until the demand of people willing to pay the higher prices equals the fixed supply. That way they're not leaving money on the table. Economics 101.

In a new stadium*, the supply would change, so you'd also change the prices. The top prices would stay about the same because there are only so many seats between the 40s and low down. But the mid-range prices would need to come down, and lots more low-price seats would be added. This would bring large numbers of priced-out fans back to the games, and a new supply/demand/price balance would need to be ironed out. What would the final demand be? Don't know. But it would easily be in the low-20s with lowered or no seat fees in the endzones. Remember that there are few if any FCS schools that have higher ticket/seat fee prices than NDSU; and not all that many G5 programs either.


*No, I don't have a clue where the money would come from. This is just a hypothetical to show the point.**

**This is also assuming an enclosed stadium as a replacement. Go with an outdoor stadium and the demand drops through the floor over the long-term. Season ticket sales suffer because people don't want to commit to an entire season when half of the games are miserable. And without season tickets, there go the seat fees that are driving the money bus. At a guess, I bet with an outdoor stadium you'd have barely larger average attendance than now, but with a big drop in overall revenue.

Sure, if they lowered ticket prices they could sell more tickets. But that would defeat the purpose of a major expansion or new stadium. The finances are a non-starter.

I'd like a bigger stadium as much as anybody else. I just don't see how the economics make sense, especially given that attendance is on a downward trend across the country. On top of that, youth participation in football is declining. For better or worse, maximizing the revenue in the Fargodome is their best option. It's still a very good facility except for the absence of club seating and modern suites. The problem with that is that the city gets the current suite revenue. That would have to change for NDSU to benefit from a renovation.

[MankatoBison]

The general admission tickets literally sold out in minutes every single year since 2012.
The non sold tickets were students, and student released tickets.

this is an actual fact. People seeing blue in the student section who yell "SeeeEeE?!? TheeErRreEes NoooO DeMaNdDDDd!!" are irredeemable bufoons.

By every single piece of measurable data, there is more demand than there are seats. I'm not suggesting doing a new build- just pointing out that saying "there is no more demand" is to ignore reality

[IndyBison]

The general admission tickets literally sold out in minutes every single year since 2012.
The non sold tickets were students, and student released tickets.

this is an actual fact. People seeing blue in the student section who yell "SeeeEeE?!? TheeErRreEes NoooO DeMaNdDDDd!!" are irredeemable bufoons.

By every single piece of measurable data, there is more demand than there are seats. I'm not suggesting doing a new build- just pointing out that saying "there is no more demand" is to ignore reality

Some of that demand is from brokers who see an opportunity to sell tickets in the secondary market. Or companies/individuals who are going through multiple avenues to accumulate tickets (i.e. a group of 8 each attempts to get tickets for their group so an apparent demand of 64 is really only a demand for 8). The demand is definitely likely about the current capacity but how much is unknown. The Bison athletic department likely has a pretty good idea though. Anything we are doing is speculation.

[bison_by_blood]

Some of that demand is from brokers who see an opportunity to sell tickets in the secondary market. Or companies/individuals who are going through multiple avenues to accumulate tickets (i.e. a group of 8 each attempts to get tickets for their group so an apparent demand of 64 is really only a demand for 8). The demand is definitely likely about the current capacity but how much is unknown. The Bison athletic department likely has a pretty good idea though. Anything we are doing is speculation.

Brokers don’t drive demand, they capitalize on it. The fact that tickets regularly go for 3 to 4 times face value on the secondary market is proof of demand. How much demand? That would be speculation.

[bisonp]

Brokers don’t drive demand, they capitalize on it. The fact that tickets regularly go for 3 to 4 times face value on the secondary market is proof of demand. How much demand? That would be speculation.

Not last year. Plenty of tickets available direct from NDSU during game weeks except SDSU and the semifinal. This is a change from years past. That seems to indicate that whatever demand was last year, it was less than what it was before.

This year started out with a rivalry game. We'll see what happens. Who knows, maybe the uncertainty of a very different team will increase interest this season.

Regardless, this has been gone over enough in past threads, so unless somebody has something new to add I'll leave it at that.

[IndyBison]

Brokers don’t drive demand, they capitalize on it. The fact that tickets regularly go for 3 to 4 times face value on the secondary market is proof of demand. How much demand? That would be speculation.

They don't drive demand, but they could contribute to perceived demand. If they think there is demand for tickets they will be as aggressive as possible in purchasing tickets. For example, let's say there are 20k tickets available for an event. If they feel the demand would be 40k they would try to buy as many as possible. Let's just say that number if 5k. Now let's say the actual demand at the original sale was 18k without the brokers and they were able to get 3k of the 5k they tried they now hold inventory. Then they go on the secondary market and list tickets for 3-4x the face value in hopes people will buy. But if the actual demand isn't above 19.5k they will end up dumping those tickets cheap or eating them. So I agree they don't drive demand but their activity could present as artificial demand.