Nickel Trophy Update

[ZHerd]

I respectfully disagree, although I do agree with Chris.

NDSU has already set itself apart from the other 3 Dakota schools, based primarily on a more ‘urban’ location and a higher research profile. If you doubt the latter I can dig up statistics.

FM will continue to grow and NDSU – barring inept leadership – should continue to grow as well. With UMN raising the admission bar, NDSU should have a plan to grow off the coattails of the cities. Of the 4 Dakota schools, we are best positioned to do this because we are the closest to MSP. An enrollment of 20k or so within the next 10 years should be a realistic objective.

The P5 split is pure fantasy, just like relegation. If NDSU wants to continue to thrive, it must not settle for the status quo. If we want to avoid stagnation, we need to strive to become attractive to a desirable FBS conference at some point in the not-too-distant future.

Not unless we bring UND with us. Without them we will be less competitive and complacent

[THEsocalledfan]

Of the 4 Dakota schools, we are best positioned to do this because we are the closest to MSP.

Not the last time I checked. (You are not the first to forget Brookings is closer.)

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

Not the last time I checked. (You are not the first to forget Brookings is closer.)

As the crow flies, sure, but 80 mph on I94 is going to be hard to beat.

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

Not unless we bring UND with us. Without them we will be less competitive and complacent

I just don't see it that way. Sorry. We should strive to leave them in the vapors ...

[Bison Loaf]

Except that the basic premise (competition) of cm post would hold true even without the Dakota schools. Anway, dont let a well written post stand in the way of good strawman. Fact is that stagnation set in once with the old gang.....take a look back. Chances are it will happen again. So yeah, when the pack catches up its a warning sign. Sure, there is time to sit around with the gang, but eventually stagnation will once again set in until someone in the group decides to make a "radical" move and pull everyone up again. I am hoping ndsu leads the way, but.....as the wise man said. We will see!

This was the first thing I thought of also when reading CM's post. The last time I remember NDSU football stagnating.............was when all the Dakotas WERE still together.

I enjoy CM and his posts very much, but I fear that he has inadvertently set himself up here as the BV champion of UND as a "must-have" partner for NDSU's future football dreams and aspirations. I doubt that's what he really meant, but he'll have to answer for that himself.

He was, I think, more specifically refuting the notion that UND now being in NDSU's conference again...........automatically represents stagnation for NDSU. If you look at things objectively and in the moment, without factoring any history into it, that probably is true............in and of itself, UND in our conference again, doesn't necessarily represent stagnation. (There, I said it! )

HOWEVER, there is and was a history with UND, and that is where others have some concerns and may, indeed, EQUATE this reunion to real stagnation. Many feel that UND - more than any other of the Dakota schools, has attempted to slow (some would say sabotage) NDSU's relentless attempts to raise it's own football program to new heights and levels. There is always a chance that they might attempt to do so again. Whether they would be successful or not, within this conference configuration, is unkown at this time, but never dismiss the concern that some have about it.

But why would UND do that, you ask?

UND is a hockey school. It's what their constituents and supporters want. But dollar for dollar, hockey is a spendy sport in general, and especially at the D1 level. If, then, UND's football conference mates are investing more and more dollars in raising their levels of football, and if UND has to follow suit for competitive reasons, it just makes sense that there will be that much less dollars available for UND to raise or maintain their level of hockey. And that is what is REALLY important to them. Don't kid yourself that if UND could play (and beat) NDSU at the very LOWEST, least spendy levels of college football, they would do so in a heartbeat. There is a REASON why the hockey-playing schools in the old NCC, didn't want to move up to D1 in football. So there's a huge difference between UND and the two SoDaks in this respect, and, in my opinion, anyone who equates them as just the same regional rivals that are always good for each other............misses the underlying athletic goals of each these institutions.

[ZHerd]

I just don't see it that way. Sorry. We should strive to leave them in the vapors ...

Agreed, I was being sarcastic due to some of the ludicrous assertions in this thread

[Christopher Moen]

This was the first thing I thought of also when reading CM's post. The last time I remember NDSU football stagnating.............was when all the Dakotas WERE still together.

I enjoy CM and his posts very much, but I fear that he has inadvertently set himself up here as the BV champion of UND as a "must-have" partner for NDSU's future football dreams and aspirations. I doubt that's what he really meant, but he'll have to answer for that himself.

He was, I think, more specifically refuting the notion that UND now being in NDSU's conference again...........automatically represents stagnation for NDSU. If you look at things objectively and in the moment, without factoring any history into it, that probably is true............in and of itself, UND in our conference again, doesn't necessarily represent stagnation. (There, I said it! )

HOWEVER, there is and was a history with UND, and that is where others have some concerns and may, indeed, EQUATE this reunion to real stagnation. Many feel that UND - more than any other of the Dakota schools, has attempted to slow (some would say sabotage) NDSU's relentless attempts to raise it's own football program to new heights and levels. There is always a chance that they might attempt to do so again. Whether they would be successful or not, within this conference configuration, is unkown at this time, but never dismiss the concern that some have about it.

But why would UND do that, you ask?

UND is a hockey school. It's what their constituents and supporters want. But dollar for dollar, hockey is a spendy sport in general, and especially at the D1 level. If, then, UND's football conference mates are investing more and more dollars in raising their levels of football, and if UND has to follow suit for competitive reasons, it just makes sense that there will be that much less dollars available for UND to raise or maintain their level of hockey. And that is what is REALLY important to them. Don't kid yourself that if UND could play (and beat) NDSU at the very LOWEST, least spendy levels of college football, they would do so in a heartbeat. There is a REASON why the hockey-playing schools in the old NCC, didn't want to move up to D1 in football. So there's a huge difference between UND and the two SoDaks in this respect, and, in my opinion, anyone who equates them as just the same regional rivals that are always good for each other............misses the underlying athletic goals of each these institutions.

No, UND is not a must-have partner for NDSU to keep moving forward. SDSU, on the other hand, is probably our key partner.

My main point was that UND is a non-factor in regards to how NDSU progresses forward in football and it is ridiculous to whine about them playing us. It makes those who do sound like a bunch of five year old boys worrying about being around girls because they have kooties. I could care less about having to play them, but when we do, I'm going to enjoy watching the Bison give the F'Hawkers a beatdown as if it were a public execution.

In regards to becoming stagnant, one has to keep in mind of the political power differences between the MVFC and the old NCC. We became stagnant in the old NCC because we allowed the others schools, especially UND, to cut our balls off. UND had a big voice in the NCC. In the MVFC, where UND has a tiny voice, there are too many other schools that want to be competitive for the National Championship to allow for stupid ideas (lower scholarship limit) to exist. If anything like that were to happen, expect NDSU and SDSU to exit quickly.

The only options UND has in regards to joining the MVFC is to become a conference doormat or continue to grow their program. A lot will depend on how much they continue to over-invest in hockey (their ROI in the sport is mind-boggling stupid). Neither options will cause NDSU to become stagnant (in fact the latter option will prevent it). NDSU controls their own destination, and those in charge are well aware of it.

[Christopher Moen]

Agreed, I was being sarcastic due to some of the ludicrous assertions in this thread

Ludicrous is a dangerous word.

[Bison Loaf]

No, UND is not a must-have partner for NDSU to keep moving forward. SDSU, on the other hand, is probably our key partner.

My main point was that UND is a non-factor in regards to how NDSU progresses forward in football and it is ridiculous to whine about them playing us. It makes those who do sound like a bunch of five year old boys worrying about being around girls because they have kooties. I could care less about having to play them, but when we do, I'm going to enjoy watching the Bison give the F'Hawkers a beatdown as if it were a public execution.

In regards to becoming stagnant, one has to keep in mind of the political power differences between the MVFC and the old NCC. We became stagnant in the old NCC because we allowed the others schools, especially UND, to cut our balls off. UND had a big voice in the NCC. In the MVFC, where UND has a tiny voice, there are too many other schools that want to be competitive for the National Championship to allow for stupid ideas (lower scholarship limit) to exist. If anything like that were to happen, expect NDSU and SDSU to exit quickly.

The only options UND has in regards to joining the MVFC is to become a conference doormat or continue to grow their program. A lot will depend on how much they continue to over-invest in hockey (their ROI in the sport is mind-boggling stupid). Neither options will cause NDSU to become stagnant (in fact the latter option will prevent it). NDSU controls their own destination, and those in charge are well aware of it.

Agreed that UND would, ostensibly, have less of a voice in this new conference configuration. But I'm not sure I can agree with you about the non-factor part, CM.

We've got to remember that they (UND) still do have, and likely always will have....................representative power at the purse strings (or other avenues of influence) in the ND legislature. It always seemed to me that if, and when, UND was in the same football conference again....................their benefactors in the Legislature will/would always make sure that, in football at least, NDSU and UND will/would always be on equal footing...............even if that means putting the brakes on one of the institutions (I wonder who that would be?) to do it. It is in that way that NDSU would not/does NOT control it's own football destiny with UND in tow.

I may have been somewhat naïve in my thinking also, but I further thought (maybe "hoped" is the better word here) that if, and when, the football teams were NOT in the same conference or in the same division............ this notion of equal footing would be less pronounced, and become, over time, a thing of the past. In other words ..... hoping that the attitude would eventually become: "NDSU is the "football" school and UND is the "hockey' school. Let each of them work toward getting to and maintaining those respective programs at the highest level possible, whatever that is".

[Christopher Moen]

Agreed that UND would, ostensibly, have less of a voice in this new conference configuration. But I'm not sure I can agree with you about the non-factor part, CM.

We've got to remember that they (UND) still do have, and likely always will have....................representative power at the purse strings (or other avenues of influence) in the ND legislature. It always seemed to me that if, and when, UND was in the same football conference again....................their benefactors in the Legislature will/would always make sure that, in football at least, NDSU and UND will/would always be on equal footing...............even if that means putting the brakes on one of the institutions (I wonder who that would be?) to do it. It is in that way that NDSU would not/does NOT control it's own football destiny with UND in tow.

I may have been somewhat naïve in my thinking also, but I further thought (maybe "hoped" is the better word here) that if, and when, the football teams were NOT in the same conference or in the same division............ this notion of equal footing would be less pronounced, and become, over time, a thing of the past. In other words ..... hoping that the attitude would eventually become: "NDSU is the "football" school and UND is the "hockey' school. Let each of them work toward getting to and maintaining those respective programs at the highest level possible, whatever that is".

Isn't UND already getting preferential treatment from the State? I thought this was part of the reason why UND's Athletic Department took such a hit was because of their dependency on the State's money whereas NDSU is more dependent on its supporters' money.

I also don't think UND will get more preferential treatment from the State if they're in the same conference. I believe that already took place once they joined the same division. If anything, if the State was "smart," they could cut UND's funding as they now will have less travel costs.