More legislative shenanigans by Al Carlson

[Bison Dan]

So you disagree with the founding fathers? Yep, dumb, dumb group......but in today's day and age, folks don't understand how this was a compromise since they don't understand the concept of compromise.

100% agree - why would anyone in ND want to be controlled by NY and CA.

[THEsocalledfan]

Of course I understand that it was a compromise. I also understand that it was a compromise forged 245 years ago when the only people with political power were white male property owners and that some of that property consisted of other human beings. I stated explicitly that changing the way were represented in the Senate would be very difficult if not impossible. I get it. Jefferson’s “agrarian” vision is firmly enshrined and the amendment process makes it nearly impossible to change because what would possibly induce rural states to voluntarily surrender their power, right? Let’s just be plain about the system we actually have. It’s a veto-ocracy that’s currently ruled by a West Virginia DINOsaur.

Of course we have to degrade the founders based on slavery and fact that they were white males. (Racism 101; denigrate a group on the color of their skin) But this is the very sad state of the republic; the leftists have no idea of the history of the country and make it overly simplistic to fit their views.

I'd suggest everyone listen to Dan Carlin's Human Resources (history of North American slave trade) podcast and learn something. Dan, who is very liberal, thinks we must view people with the framework of the time they lived, not today's societies values. I agree with him 100%. He spends a ton of time talking about the contradiction that was Thomas Jefferson. It was fascinating. For all his flaws, he knew slavery's time was limited and had to go, but leftist now simply denigrate him and other founders rather than appreciate the complexity of the time/situation.

Those same slave holding founders, constructed, through a series of compromises, and ingenious incite into human behavior, a Constitution that bound the country together. Even more amazingly, that same Constitution was amended to eliminate slavery and the legislative process eventually extended true freedom to all. This happened in less than 200 years, which is a microcosm of time compared to how long slavery was ingrained in the world. (Remember, this goes back to Biblical times, although chattel slavery was much worse than much of the Biblical slavery.)

No one should be ashamed of being an American or our past. I damn proud to live in a country that somehow eliminated one of the great evils in the history of the world. We had amazing founders who figured out how to balance the needs of urban versus rural. We all need to understand that for the system to function correctly, often decisions need/will to be made we don't agree with. Instead of viewing the opposing view as the enemy, remember they are doing what they think is best and the system is working exactly how designed. That itself, is a compromise.

[tony]

Of course we have to degrade the founders based on slavery and fact that they were white males. (Racism 101; denigrate a group on the color of their skin) But this is the very sad state of the republic; the leftists have no idea of the history of the country and make it overly simplistic to fit their views.

Bullshit. Omigod, that's such fucking bullshit. Slave-owning Founding Fathers aren't being criticized for being white men- they're being criticized for making a mockery of their own stated principles by treating their fellow humans as less than human. Slavery is bad enough, but the slave codes in America managed to make it even worse than most examples.

Heck, it's not like people suddenly woke up and said, "Wow, I didn't know slavery was evil." Most knew. Read the unedited Declaration of Independence - Thomas Jefferson certainly realized that slavery was evil. Heck, I had ancestors here well before the Revolution who, based on their writings, were definitely anti-slavery.

I mean, yes, you do have to take a nuanced approach to history - just because people in history are never marble saints doesn't invalidate everything else they did. And, btw, what also pisses me off is that self-righteous assholes go after Ben Franklin, the paragon of Founding Fathers, because he chased skirts. Well, he didn't rape people he had enslaved and deny people their very humanity. Heck, he was anti-slavery and was humble enough to learn from past mistakes.

[scottietohottie]

22 million Twitter followers eh.

[bisonaudit]

100% agree - why would anyone in ND want to be controlled by NY and CA.

Yeah, I acknowledged that. There’s no reason for you to voluntarily surrender your disproportionate representation. But is it so tough to understand that people in CA and NY feel the same way about being controlled by you?

[bisonaudit]

Bullshit. Omigod, that's such fucking bullshit. Slave-owning Founding Fathers aren't being criticized for being white men- they're being criticized for making a mockery of their own stated principles by treating their fellow humans as less than human. Slavery is bad enough, but the slave codes in America managed to make it even worse than most examples.

Heck, it's not like people suddenly woke up and said, "Wow, I didn't know slavery was evil." Most knew. Read the unedited Declaration of Independence - Thomas Jefferson certainly realized that slavery was evil. Heck, I had ancestors here well before the Revolution who, based on their writings, were definitely anti-slavery.

I mean, yes, you do have to take a nuanced approach to history - just because people in history are never marble saints doesn't invalidate everything else they did. And, btw, what also pisses me off is that self-righteous assholes go after Ben Franklin, the paragon of Founding Fathers, because he chased skirts. Well, he didn't rape people he had enslaved and deny people their very humanity. Heck, he was anti-slavery and was humble enough to learn from past mistakes.

Also, we were way behind the curve in eliminating slavery and it took a civil war to do it.

And the disproportionate representation that still exists at the federal level is a legacy of the compromises made at the founding because of slavery that we still haven’t expunged from our system. Our efforts to create a more perfect union continue.

[HerdBot]

If you don't like how the (Federal) House and Senate are constituted, change the Constitution. There's a defined process for that. And when your State became a State you agreed to all of it.

Until then, the Senate is set up so the urbans don't overrun the rural. The urbans get the House to do that.

Frankly, if I were to make a change to the make-up of the Senate, I'd repeal (by the process) the 17th Amendment: No more popular vote for Senators; popular vote for House reps only. Go back to Senators picked by state legislatures. That would force folks to look at who they are sending to Bismarck even harder.

I don't buy the whole urban vs rural argument. This country in its early days was almost all rural. As recently as 1910, 55% of the nation was rural.

Right now, Republicans don't vote in states like New York and California for the same reasons Democrats don't vote in North Dakota and Alabama. They simply won't win. If every California or New York Republican voted, it would change the landscape. Also Democrats woule spend money in the rural states like Wyoming. But today, their vote really doesn't count, unless it's a ballot measure or a local election

[scottietohottie]

Yeah, I acknowledged that. There’s no reason for you to voluntarily surrender your disproportionate representation. But is it so tough to understand that people in CA and NY feel the same way about being controlled by you?

That's why states need to make laws for themselves and not the federal government. That's actual conservatism bro. Not the Trump bullshit.

[THEsocalledfan]

Bullshit. Omigod, that's such fucking bullshit. Slave-owning Founding Fathers aren't being criticized for being white men- they're being criticized for making a mockery of their own stated principles by treating their fellow humans as less than human. Slavery is bad enough, but the slave codes in America managed to make it even worse than most examples.

Heck, it's not like people suddenly woke up and said, "Wow, I didn't know slavery was evil." Most knew. Read the unedited Declaration of Independence - Thomas Jefferson certainly realized that slavery was evil. Heck, I had ancestors here well before the Revolution who, based on their writings, were definitely anti-slavery.

I mean, yes, you do have to take a nuanced approach to history - just because people in history are never marble saints doesn't invalidate everything else they did. And, btw, what also pisses me off is that self-righteous assholes go after Ben Franklin, the paragon of Founding Fathers, because he chased skirts. Well, he didn't rape people he had enslaved and deny people their very humanity. Heck, he was anti-slavery and was humble enough to learn from past mistakes.

Tony, thank you for making my point. Reread my paragraph on Dan Carlin's Human Resources. Yet, audit specifically pointed out slave holding white males wrote the constitution. I call out racism when I see it. I fully grasp the enigmas of the founders.

[bisonaudit]

Tony, thank you for making my point. Reread my paragraph on Dan Carlin's Human Resources. Yet, audit specifically pointed out slave holding white males wrote the constitution. I call out racism when I see it. I fully grasp the enigmas of the founders.

This shit is so bananas.

They treated people as property because of the color of their skin, but I’m the racist?