Carson Wentz

[BisonTru]

Everyone wants to know why he is considered more NFL ready...this is why. Stop. Fucking. Asking.

I get the polished mechanics of Goff. However, Wentz is light years ahead on the white board. I would rather try and clean up some mechanics than try and teach a brand new offense.

JMO, but I think there is at least room for a debate here.

[IzzyFlexion]

I think you are relying too much on stat keeping for these numbers. There is plenty of film on Goff getting hurried or beaten up. Their Oline blew ass, that's not really up for debate.

From:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaaol

2015 FBS Offensive Line Stats:

In Pass Protection:

CATEGORY #1

Adjusted Sack Rate: An opponent-adjusted version of a team's sack rate -- sacks divided by (sacks plus passes), presented on a scale in which 100 is perfectly average, above 100 is good, below 100 is bad.

California Bears O-Line:
GRADE - 162.3
FBS RANK - 14.

CATEGORY #2

Standard Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for standard downs pass attempts.

California Bears O-Line:
GRADE - 4.1%
FBS RANK - 48

CATEGORY #3

Passing Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for passing downs pass attempts.

California Bears O-Line:
GRADE - 4.4%
FBS RANK - 14

Now, it is odd to see several NON-POWER schools ranked higher than Cal in some of these stats. Clearly, strength of schedule has a lot to do with that.

EXAMPLES:
Cal's 2015 record was 8-5 with an overall Sagarin Ranking of 32. California's SOS: RANKED 10th in all of FBS in 2015. (This ranking counts the bowl games and the playoffs).

Now look at Air Force. They has some real impressive grade outs for their O-Line. Air Force's overall Sagarin Ranking was 73. Their record of 8-6 is linked to a SOS of: RANKED 88th in all of FBS in 2015.

Hey, what can I tell you. I like to analyze stats because, at least, there's some objectivity to it.
If you want to say they blew ass, well that's fine. But that's a subjective statement.

Regarding the youtube video that you put up..............

I liked what I saw from Cal's O-Line vs Oregon at the 2:08 mark. At the snap the left guard pulls and does his job on the linebacker while the rest of them shift smoothly to the left backfilling those gaps. The tailback stays in to block and co-engages with one of the big guys but truly has little or no impact protecting on this particular play.

Goff stood in the pocket for 3 1/2 seconds and had no Oregon defender anywhere near him.

Oregon ranked 9th in all of FBS in sacks in 2015 with 38

[EndZoneQB]

I get the polished mechanics of Goff. However, Wentz is light years ahead on the white board. I would rather try and clean up some mechanics than try and teach a brand new offense.

JMO, but I think there is at least room for a debate here.

Feeling pressure in the pocket is one of those things that generally you don't learn when moving to the NFL. Carson isn't *bad* at it, Goff just looks more polished. Like I said, look at how he slides his feet while keeping a strong base under him. When he scrambles, his eyes are down field constantly. Wentz, obviously a more able bodied runner, often takes off or doesn't keep trying to buy time. Can it be taught? We will find out. Wentz often times changes his mechanics when he is being pressured and his accuracy greatly suffers - although he is seemingly not afraid of taking a shot, he just needs to actually step into those throws. Goff's mechanics don't break down under pressure or while scrambling. How much of that is due to starting more games? Not sure, but I'm sure it plays a part. Again - this is why Goff is the more POLISHED passer. We aren't arguing upside, we are arguing why he is more pro ready...or polished. Wentz might win the white board test right now, but why is that? Because he has more experience in that type of offense - but Goff can only do what he was given in college. Like someone else mentioned, "Wentz can only play against the competition he had in front of him"...well Goff can only run the offense that he had in front of him. No indication that he's going to become a bumbling idiot once he gets a pro offense in front of him.

What you guys fail to realize is Goff being a more polished passer(I think that's a better way to put it than NFL-ready) will help him in his early years. They can cater the offense to fit what he's good at, and with his obvious accuracy and mechanics, it should lend him being successful sooner. Again - this isn't about Wentz having more upside - which is pretty clear...this is about who is more POLISHED right now today. Wentz can work on his mechanics and footwork within the pocket, no doubt, but Goff is already there. He also makes full field reads, yes it's in a wide open offense, but he is already trained to see the whole field. A lot of Wentz's reads were half field.

Everyone needs to settle down and quit getting so emotional. A positive about Goff isn't a negative about Wentz.

[silkamilkamonico]

Cal runs a scheme that asks their QB to take a pounding. Similiar to what Spurrier ran at Florida. That kid Goff has balls for standing in on alot of those throws he makes knowing he's going to get pounded, and for being as successful as he was there.

[silkamilkamonico]

Everyone needs to settle down and quit getting so emotional. A positive about Goff isn't a negative about Wentz.

Agreed. They are both really excellent NFL prospects.

[EndZoneQB]

From:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ncaaol

2015 FBS Offensive Line Stats:

In Pass Protection:

CATEGORY #1

Adjusted Sack Rate: An opponent-adjusted version of a team's sack rate -- sacks divided by (sacks plus passes), presented on a scale in which 100 is perfectly average, above 100 is good, below 100 is bad.

California Bears O-Line:
GRADE - 162.3
FBS RANK - 14.

CATEGORY #2

Standard Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for standard downs pass attempts.

California Bears O-Line:
GRADE - 4.1%
FBS RANK - 48

CATEGORY #3

Passing Downs Sack Rate: Unadjusted sack rate for passing downs pass attempts.

California Bears O-Line:
GRADE - 4.4%
FBS RANK - 14

Now, it is odd to see several schools ranked higher than Cal in some of these stats. Clearly, strength of schedule has a lot to do with that.

EXAMPLES:
Cal's 2015 record was 8-5 with an overall Sagarin Ranking of 32. California's SOS: RANKED 10th in all of FBS in 2015. (This ranking counts the bowl games and the playoffs).

Now look at Air Force. They has some real impressive grade outs for their O-Line. Air Force's overall Sagarin Ranking was 73. Their record of 8-6 is linked to a SOS of: RANKED 88th in all of FBS in 2015.

California Bears O-Line:
GRADE - 4.4%
FBS RANK - 14

Hey, what can I tell you. I like to analyze stats because, at least, there's some objectivity to it.
If you want to say they blew ass, well that's fine. But that's a subjective statement.

Regarding the youtube video that you put up..............

I liked what I saw from Cal's O-Line vs Oregon at the 2:08 mark. At the snap the left guard pulls and does his job on the linebacker while the rest of them shift smoothly to the left backfilling those gaps. The tailback stays in to block and co-engages with one of the big guys but truly has little or no impact protecting on this particular play.

Goff stood in the pocket for 3 1/2 seconds and had no Oregon defender anywhere near him.

Oregon ranked 9th in all of FBS in sacks in 2015 with 38

Look, I get it, but is a low sack rate because his Oline was good at protecting him, or was it because he was good at getting the ball out of his hands and to the receivers? Stats tell a flat story in one dimension. The pocket breaking down and him scrambling doesn't show up in a sack stat when he completes a pass because...well it's not a sack. I think you get the point I'm headed towards here. I'm a numbers guy as much as the rest - but it's disingenuous, at best, to live inside the numbers only. The YouTube video is clearly a highlight film, but look at how often he is having to escape pressure or move around in the pocket while still completing throws. I'm of the belief that the sack numbers are more a product of Goff being adept at feeling pressure and still being able to make a play than to say the o-line is the reason. Look at the highlight tape.

You bring up the Oregon game - even a blind squirrel finds nut once in awhile. Just because they blocked one time perfectly against a team that racks up sacks, one time does not a trend make.

[BisonTru]

Feeling pressure in the pocket is one of those things that generally you don't learn when moving to the NFL. Carson isn't *bad* at it, Goff just looks more polished. Like I said, look at how he slides his feet while keeping a strong base under him. When he scrambles, his eyes are down field constantly. Wentz, obviously a more able bodied runner, often takes off or doesn't keep trying to buy time. Can it be taught? We will find out. Wentz often times changes his mechanics when he is being pressured and his accuracy greatly suffers - although he is seemingly not afraid of taking a shot, he just needs to actually step into those throws. Goff's mechanics don't break down under pressure or while scrambling. How much of that is due to starting more games? Not sure, but I'm sure it plays a part. Again - this is why Goff is the more POLISHED passer. We aren't arguing upside, we are arguing why he is more pro ready...or polished. Wentz might win the white board test right now, but why is that? Because he has more experience in that type of offense - but Goff can only do what he was given in college. Like someone else mentioned, "Wentz can only play against the competition he had in front of him"...well Goff can only run the offense that he had in front of him. No indication that he's going to become a bumbling idiot once he gets a pro offense in front of him.

What you guys fail to realize is Goff being a more polished passer(I think that's a better way to put it than NFL-ready) will help him in his early years. They can cater the offense to fit what he's good at, and with his obvious accuracy and mechanics, it should lend him being successful sooner. Again - this isn't about Wentz having more upside - which is pretty clear...this is about who is more POLISHED right now today. Wentz can work on his mechanics and footwork within the pocket, no doubt, but Goff is already there. He also makes full field reads, yes it's in a wide open offense, but he is already trained to see the whole field. A lot of Wentz's reads were half field.

Everyone needs to settle down and quit getting so emotional. A positive about Goff isn't a negative about Wentz.

I agree with polished, and think that's a better word. Where I think we disagree is what makes you more pro ready. IMO, if I had to start a QB week 1 and my career depended on if he could win that game. It's Wentz for me because of his advanced knowledge of pro systems. I have heard multiple draftnicks like David Carr, Mayock, and Benoit say the same thing. However, multiple other draftnicks go Goff as more pro ready. All of this is JMO.

However, I will say sack rates really don't matter in all of this. I'm not sure why we have such a huge debate about it.

[IzzyFlexion]

Look, I get it, but is a low sack rate because his Oline was good at protecting him, or was it because he was good at getting the ball out of his hands and to the receivers. Stats tell a flat story in one dimension. The pocket breaking down and him scrambling doesn't show up in a sack stat when he completes a pass because...well it's not a sack. I think you get the point I'm headed towards here. I'm a numbers guy as much as the rest - but it's disingenuous, at best, to live inside the numbers only. The YouTube video is clearly a highlight film, but look at how often he is having to escape pressure or move around in the pocket while still completing throws. I'm of the belief that the sack numbers are more a product of Goff being adept at feeling pressure and still being able to make a play than to say the o-line is the reason. Look at the highlight tape.

You bring up the Oregon game - even a blind squirrel finds nut once in awhile. Just because they blocked one time perfectly against a team that racks up sacks, one time does not a trend make.

There are hundreds of different stats kept at both the pro and college level.

Why?

If they don't really mean anything, then there a lot of people are wasting hundreds of hours logging them.

The play against Oregon (in the video) shows some great protection. He stood in the pocket completely unthreatened for 3 1/2 seconds.
If someone wants to argue that that is just one lucky/isolated anomaly.............well, there's not much I can do about that. I'm not gonna look through every play that they ran last year. But, you're the one that put the video up there, so I made an observation.

I think I'll just go back to the childish moron Izzy that just posts stupid shit.
When I come on here with actual content that is drawn from some bonafide research, it just becomes so fucking cumbersome.

SURPRISE ANNOUNCEMENT: I'm not anti Jarod Goff!!!!!!!
I don't see what's so offensive about presenting material that gives members a chance to think in different terms when comparing these two stellar athletes instead of just..............."Our guy kicks ass and their guy sucks!"

[EndZoneQB]

I agree with polished, and think that's a better word. Where I think we disagree is what makes you more pro ready. IMO, if I had to start a QB week 1 and my career depended on if he could win that game. It's Wentz for me because of his advanced knowledge of pro systems. I have heard multiple draftnicks like David Carr, Mayock, and Benoit say the same thing. However, multiple other draftnicks go Goff as more pro ready. All of this is JMO.

However, I will say sack rates really don't matter in all of this. I'm not sure why we have such a huge debate about it.

Personally, I think the pro-STYLE system argument is sort of overblown. How have USC QBs done that ran a pro-style offense in college? What about Christian Ponder? Ponder had zero feel in the pocket and that was his undoing. Bridgewater was much more comfortable feeling the pressure right out of the gate...

There are hundreds of different stats kept at both the pro and college level.

Why?

If they don't really mean anything, then there a lot of people are wasting hundreds of hours logging them.

The play against Oregon (in the video) shows some great protection. He stood in the pocket completely unthreatened for 3 1/2 seconds.
If someone wants to argue that that is just one lucky/isolated anomaly.............well, there's not much I can do about that. I'm not gonna look through every play that they ran last year. But, you're the one that put the video up there, so I made an observation.

I think I'll just go back to the childish moron Izzy that just posts stupid shit.
When I come on here with actual content that is drawn from some bonafide research, it just becomes so fucking cumbersome.

SURPRISE ANNOUNCEMENT: I'm not anti Jarod Goff!!!!!!!
I don't see what's so offensive about presenting material that gives members a chance to think in different terms when comparing these two stellar athletes instead of just..............."Our guy kicks ass and their guy sucks!"

Whoa whoa, slow down. I wasn't hating at all, just having a discussion about it. You're presenting the numbers, I presented a cut up film and the idea that Goff is a big reason for the lack of sacks. Just relax.

[ByeSonBusiness]

There are hundreds of different stats kept at both the pro and college level.

Why?

If they don't really mean anything, then there a lot of people are wasting hundreds of hours logging them.

The play against Oregon (in the video) shows some great protection. He stood in the pocket completely unthreatened for 3 1/2 seconds.
If someone wants to argue that that is just one lucky/isolated anomaly.............well, there's not much I can do about that. I'm not gonna look through every play that they ran last year. But, you're the one that put the video up there, so I made an observation.

I think I'll just go back to the childish moron Izzy that just posts stupid shit.
When I come on here with actual content that is drawn from some bonafide research, it just becomes so fucking cumbersome.

SURPRISE ANNOUNCEMENT: I'm not anti Jarod Goff!!!!!!!
I don't see what's so offensive about presenting material that gives members a chance to think in different terms when comparing these two stellar athletes instead of just..............."Our guy kicks ass and their guy sucks!"

Debate is fun! Keep it up. Gets people's wheels turning and makes them ask questions.