Fargodome Expansion discusssion

[EndZoneQB]

The city pays NDSU a dollar per year for the land lease.

Well...doesn't your lease holder have to approve any changes?

[oldmantutters]

Well...doesn't your lease holder have to approve any changes?

I would think they would have to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MAKBison]

I disagree with this, I actually think a convention center connected to NDSU is good thing... HIED and business is a good match up. Note all the conferences I attended are academic and or professionally based... so I realize the bias

Well, there's the rub: A convention center attached to the FargoDome doesn't do anything for NDSU as far as I can tell other than cause congestion, eat up parking, and cause potential conflicts with NDSU events at the BSA or FargoDome (and use NDSU land.)

I think it'd make more sense to have Fargo and West Fargo finally cooperate on something, put it around 45th street, and slap a waterpark on it. There are plenty of hotels around there and it's have easy access to the airport and two interstates.

[AKBison]

Maybe your both right, check out Pitt States new indoor practice facility/300m track/convention center. It is a partnership between private donors, the city, and the students.

http://www.pittstate.edu/news/city-s...-project-ahead
http://www.pittstate.edu/news/work-b...r-event-center

If we could do this, coupled with a remake of the south endzone by bringing the seating up higher with filled in corners, we would all be winners.

[Hammersmith]

Sorry for the brain dump that follows.


Can I please reiterate a fairly important piece of information regarding this debate? Not all conventions/trade shows are the same. It seems pretty simple, but it appears quite a few are either unaware or continue to forget it. Every time somebody says, "conventions would never work downtown because of traffic," it's another example of this.

We need to remember that there are at least two broad grouping of conventions/trade shows. I called them blue-collar and white-collar in an earlier post, but I think the more correct set of terms is consumer trade show and industry trade show. There are trade shows and conventions that cross the boundaries, but this is a good place to start.

When you think of a consumer trade show, you're thinking of shows like the Sportsmen's, boat & RV, home & garden, car audio, and the like. These shows are targeted at the end users of the products. They are either hobby or interest-based. These shows tend to occur on weekends and the last couple days of the week(Wed/Thurs through Sat/Sun). They tend to be quiet during the weekday, then pick up on weekday nights and the weekend. The attendees are going to these shows on their own time because they are for entertainment as much as anything. The attendees also generally come from the surrounding area; maybe a hundred mile radius.

These shows have a set of requirements for success. They need to have easy traffic access since everyone is driving to the show. There has to be plentiful parking for all the vehicles. Food options are not that important. Inside the facility there needs to be simple fare to sate appetites just enough to get them through the day. Food options outside the facility don't have to be much as attendees are going to want to just get out of there at the end of the day. Same with hotel options. Attendees are not going to stay in hotels for the sole purpose of this type of show. If they do stay in a hotel, it's because they are turning the trip into a mini-vacation for the family and will want a hotel closer to other attractions. All the area really needs is enough beds for the show vendors that have traveled in, and some quick food options for them to grab before they crash in their hotel rooms for the night. Does this type of environment sound familiar? It should. It basically fits the Fargodome location to a tee.


But there's a different type of trade show that comes with a different set of requirements for success. The industry trade show(or professional convention) has a completely different set of needs. These shows target the installer or some other type of mid-level user. An example might be a medical instruments trade show. The vendors are the manufacturers and the attendees are doctors and hospital purchasing agents. In a plumbing/HVAC trade show, the attendees would be contractors, plumbers, and other installers. The attendees tend to come from a regional, national, or international pool, as there are typically not enough potential attendees in a given area outside of a major metropolis. The attendees are also coming to these shows as part of their job, so the show is more likely to occur during the week and be busiest during the workday.

And this makes the requirements completely different. Easy traffic access is no longer a top priority. Attendees are more likely to fly into the airport, grab a hotel shuttle, and spend the rest of the trip on foot. Since the attendees will be staying at hotels, parking at the facility is no longer a major concern. But food and hotel options within walking distance of the events center suddenly rise to the top of priority list. The attendees want to have a variety of food and beverage options close by, and they want a variety of hotel choices ranging from good enough to luxury. There also needs to be plenty of spaces nearby for the wheeling-dealing that happens after hours. Also, the condition of the space is more important than in consumer trade shows. A concrete floor at field level of a sports facility might be okay for a boat show, but it's not something a high-end industry trade show would be happy with. If this set of requirements sounds like downtown Fargo, now you see why people like Burgum are pushing for that location.


Now of course there are shows that straddle the line. Take a bridal show for instance. It's a consumer trade show, but the brides are going to want a higher-end setting to check out dresses, cakes, and honeymoon options. And an industry trade show for farm equipment wouldn't do well in a ballroom with the tires from the equipment scratching up the floors and staining the carpet. But the overall concept holds.


So in a perfect world, we would expand the Fargodome to make it better for consumer trade shows, and build a new center downtown for industry shows. But we don't have money for both. What we do have is enough money to do one of the projects. What's the better choice? I don't know. Imagine sitting down in front of two pie pans. On the left you've got pumpkin; on the right, apple. You've already got a pretty big piece of pumpkin on your plate, and a sliver of apple(both previously taken from the pies). You can take another slice from one of the pies. If you take it from the pumpkin, you will have taken almost the entire pie. But the new slice won't be all that large as you had already taken most of the pie before. If you take a slice of the apple, it will be a much larger slice of pie than the new pumpkin slice, but the new slice of apple combined with the sliver of apple on your plate will only be about the same size as the original slice of pumpkin.

Or to put it another way, we can choose to be excellent in one area(consumer) and give up on the other(industry), or we can try to be reasonably good at both, but excel in neither. Both arguments are valid. Personally, I lean toward Burgum's idea since it gives Fargo a tool we really haven't had before. I guess I'm approaching it the same way I do my kitchen. The first step is to get a set of economical tools that get the job done. Then replace those tools with top-quality equipment as budget allows. In the case of Fargo, I think a facility focused on the industry trade show and professional convention is something we should have, and we should build that before going and improving the Fargodome's ability to host a wider range of consumer trade shows. But I see the validity of the other side.

Sorry this rambled on. It was composed in at least three different chunks as time at work allowed. It's also a bunch of stuff that's been percolating while I've had limited computer access this week.

[IzzyFlexion]

Sorry for the brain dump that follows.


Can I please reiterate a fairly important piece of information regarding this debate? Not all conventions/trade shows are the same. It seems pretty simple, but it appears quite a few are either unaware or continue to forget it. Every time somebody says, "conventions would never work downtown because of traffic," it's another example of this.

We need to remember that there are at least two broad grouping of conventions/trade shows. I called them blue-collar and white-collar in an earlier post, but I think the more correct set of terms is consumer trade show and industry trade show. There are trade shows and conventions that cross the boundaries, but this is a good place to start.

When you think of a consumer trade show, you're thinking of shows like the Sportsmen's, boat & RV, home & garden, car audio, and the like. These shows are targeted at the end users of the products. They are either hobby or interest-based. These shows tend to occur on weekends and the last couple days of the week(Wed/Thurs through Sat/Sun). They tend to be quiet during the weekday, then pick up on weekday nights and the weekend. The attendees are going to these shows on their own time because they are for entertainment as much as anything. The attendees also generally come from the surrounding area; maybe a hundred mile radius.

These shows have a set of requirements for success. They need to have easy traffic access since everyone is driving to the show. There has to be plentiful parking for all the vehicles. Food options are not that important. Inside the facility there needs to be simple fare to sate appetites just enough to get them through the day. Food options outside the facility don't have to be much as attendees are going to want to just get out of there at the end of the day. Same with hotel options. Attendees are not going to stay in hotels for the sole purpose of this type of show. If they do stay in a hotel, it's because they are turning the trip into a mini-vacation for the family and will want a hotel closer to other attractions. All the area really needs is enough beds for the show vendors that have traveled in, and some quick food options for them to grab before they crash in their hotel rooms for the night. Does this type of environment sound familiar? It should. It basically fits the Fargodome location to a tee.


But there's a different type of trade show that comes with a different set of requirements for success. The industry trade show(or professional convention) has a completely different set of needs. These shows target the installer or some other type of mid-level user. An example might be a medical instruments trade show. The vendors are the manufacturers and the attendees are doctors and hospital purchasing agents. In a plumbing/HVAC trade show, the attendees would be contractors, plumbers, and other installers. The attendees tend to come from a regional, national, or international pool, as there are typically not enough potential attendees in a given area outside of a major metropolis. The attendees are also coming to these shows as part of their job, so the show is more likely to occur during the week and be busiest during the workday.

And this makes the requirements completely different. Easy traffic access is no longer a top priority. Attendees are more likely to fly into the airport, grab a hotel shuttle, and spend the rest of the trip on foot. Since the attendees will be staying at hotels, parking at the facility is no longer a major concern. But food and hotel options within walking distance of the events center suddenly rise to the top of priority list. The attendees want to have a variety of food and beverage options close by, and they want a variety of hotel choices ranging from good enough to luxury. There also needs to be plenty of spaces nearby for the wheeling-dealing that happens after hours. Also, the condition of the space is more important than in consumer trade shows. A concrete floor at field level of a sports facility might be okay for a boat show, but it's not something a high-end industry trade show would be happy with. If this set of requirements sounds like downtown Fargo, now you see why people like Burgum are pushing for that location.


Now of course there are shows that straddle the line. Take a bridal show for instance. It's a consumer trade show, but the brides are going to want a higher-end setting to check out dresses, cakes, and honeymoon options. And an industry trade show for farm equipment wouldn't do well in a ballroom with the tires from the equipment scratching up the floors and staining the carpet. But the overall concept holds.


So in a perfect world, we would expand the Fargodome to make it better for consumer trade shows, and build a new center downtown for industry shows. But we don't have money for both. What we do have is enough money to do one of the projects. What's the better choice? I don't know. Imagine sitting down in front of two pie pans. On the left you've got pumpkin; on the right, apple. You've already got a pretty big piece of pumpkin on your plate, and a sliver of apple(both previously taken from the pies). You can take another slice from one of the pies. If you take it from the pumpkin, you will have taken almost the entire pie. But the new slice won't be all that large as you had already taken most of the pie before. If you take a slice of the apple, it will be a much larger slice of pie than the new pumpkin slice, but the new slice of apple combined with the sliver of apple on your plate will only be about the same size as the original slice of pumpkin.

Or to put it another way, we can choose to be excellent in one area(consumer) and give up on the other(industry), or we can try to be reasonably good at both, but excel in neither. Both arguments are valid. Personally, I lean toward Burgum's idea since it gives Fargo a tool we really haven't had before. I guess I'm approaching it the same way I do my kitchen. The first step is to get a set of economical tools that get the job done. Then replace those tools with top-quality equipment as budget allows. In the case of Fargo, I think a facility focused on the industry trade show and professional convention is something we should have, and we should build that before going and improving the Fargodome's ability to host a wider range of consumer trade shows. But I see the validity of the other side.

Sorry this rambled on. It was composed in at least three different chunks as time at work allowed. It's also a bunch of stuff that's been percolating while I've had limited computer access this week.

[MAKBison]

I think your argument is bit off. I say this from the perspective of someone who attends plenty of Industrial trade show/professional conference (as both a participant and sometimes as a vendor) and I also sit on a committee for an organization that plans organizes a professional group's annual conferences.

I can say without a doubt (from an organizations standpoint) Reno followed by LV and Orlando ares shit places to host conferences--too much for the attendee to do and in turn attendees they do not spend enough time looking at the whizzbangs or the consulting services offered by the vendors.

Why is this important--- because the vendors are how the hosting group pays for the conference...actually in a lot of instances these conferences are so profitable that create enough $$$ to run the group's annul operating expenses. A good conference will typical bring $5-7K for a standard booth (more for prime locations) BTW its super expensive for a vendor because you have the conference fee on top of the facility charges (table, chairs, table drape, extension cords, carpet in the booth, electricity, WIFI, etc). The point being, the conference makes it $$$ by inviting vendors who pay for floor space, the facility makes its $$$ by charging the vendors for services and the vendors make their $$$ selling services/products to the conference goer. If a facility does not have space for vendors to pimp their product/services its not a real option for an organization to use as a location.

I should also not that Ironically, location and the towns amenities are not what drives conference attendance..the quality of both the speakers and the vendors show drive attendance. As such, when planning a conference an Organization is looking at the following 1) facility has multiple meetings rooms; 2) Facility has catering services; 3) facility has a place so vendors can demonstrate their product/services 4) the facility has hotel accommodations with in walking distance. 5) the facility has easy access to the city and easy accesses form the airport to the facility. 6) price (which is why LV, Reno and Orlando are popular choices even if tho they suck---cheap beyond belief!!!!

Again, keep in mind, the organization hosting the conference wants the attendees to be in the vending area ever moment they are not listing to a speaker attended a training etc.

A typical day for these of conferences usually goes like this
Morning: eat breakfast at the conference, attend morning session usually consisting of educational courses, certification, Association business (member voting committee work) etc.

The sessions are typically 45min long with a 15min break between each session---refreshments are served in the Vendor area. (for obvious reason)

Lunch: Food is served at the conference and then there is some sort of event coordinated in the vendor area....typically its a vendor quest for a prize (gotta keep those guys happy and the only way they are happy is when faces are coming around their booths).

Afternoon: Several breakout session (multiply options to choose from). again breaks between the session with refreshment served in the Vendor area.

Each day of the conference closes by the organization hosting some sort of event in the vendor area---typically free booze and finger food are available (Again, because the vendors are how the conference makes it money and you best keep them happy).

Anyway, This will go on for 2 or 3 days and the final day of the conference will be kicked off by an evening reception with dinner and entertainment held at the conference location.

My point----, DT does nothing to improve the Domes position to hosts these types of events. Sure it makes it nice for the guy attending the conference---there is atmosphere outside of the conference area. However, like I said, the organization hosting the conference makes it $$$ selling booths to vendors...they want the attendees in the vending area not walking around Downtown. The location of the Dome is actually perfect.

Sorry for the brain dump that follows.


Can I please reiterate a fairly important piece of information regarding this debate? Not all conventions/trade shows are the same. It seems pretty simple, but it appears quite a few are either unaware or continue to forget it. Every time somebody says, "conventions would never work downtown because of traffic," it's another example of this.

We need to remember that there are at least two broad grouping of conventions/trade shows. I called them blue-collar and white-collar in an earlier post, but I think the more correct set of terms is consumer trade show and industry trade show. There are trade shows and conventions that cross the boundaries, but this is a good place to start.

When you think of a consumer trade show, you're thinking of shows like the Sportsmen's, boat & RV, home & garden, car audio, and the like. These shows are targeted at the end users of the products. They are either hobby or interest-based. These shows tend to occur on weekends and the last couple days of the week(Wed/Thurs through Sat/Sun). They tend to be quiet during the weekday, then pick up on weekday nights and the weekend. The attendees are going to these shows on their own time because they are for entertainment as much as anything. The attendees also generally come from the surrounding area; maybe a hundred mile radius.

These shows have a set of requirements for success. They need to have easy traffic access since everyone is driving to the show. There has to be plentiful parking for all the vehicles. Food options are not that important. Inside the facility there needs to be simple fare to sate appetites just enough to get them through the day. Food options outside the facility don't have to be much as attendees are going to want to just get out of there at the end of the day. Same with hotel options. Attendees are not going to stay in hotels for the sole purpose of this type of show. If they do stay in a hotel, it's because they are turning the trip into a mini-vacation for the family and will want a hotel closer to other attractions. All the area really needs is enough beds for the show vendors that have traveled in, and some quick food options for them to grab before they crash in their hotel rooms for the night. Does this type of environment sound familiar? It should. It basically fits the Fargodome location to a tee.


But there's a different type of trade show that comes with a different set of requirements for success. The industry trade show(or professional convention) has a completely different set of needs. These shows target the installer or some other type of mid-level user. An example might be a medical instruments trade show. The vendors are the manufacturers and the attendees are doctors and hospital purchasing agents. In a plumbing/HVAC trade show, the attendees would be contractors, plumbers, and other installers. The attendees tend to come from a regional, national, or international pool, as there are typically not enough potential attendees in a given area outside of a major metropolis. The attendees are also coming to these shows as part of their job, so the show is more likely to occur during the week and be busiest during the workday.

And this makes the requirements completely different. Easy traffic access is no longer a top priority. Attendees are more likely to fly into the airport, grab a hotel shuttle, and spend the rest of the trip on foot. Since the attendees will be staying at hotels, parking at the facility is no longer a major concern. But food and hotel options within walking distance of the events center suddenly rise to the top of priority list. The attendees want to have a variety of food and beverage options close by, and they want a variety of hotel choices ranging from good enough to luxury. There also needs to be plenty of spaces nearby for the wheeling-dealing that happens after hours. Also, the condition of the space is more important than in consumer trade shows. A concrete floor at field level of a sports facility might be okay for a boat show, but it's not something a high-end industry trade show would be happy with. If this set of requirements sounds like downtown Fargo, now you see why people like Burgum are pushing for that location.


Now of course there are shows that straddle the line. Take a bridal show for instance. It's a consumer trade show, but the brides are going to want a higher-end setting to check out dresses, cakes, and honeymoon options. And an industry trade show for farm equipment wouldn't do well in a ballroom with the tires from the equipment scratching up the floors and staining the carpet. But the overall concept holds.


So in a perfect world, we would expand the Fargodome to make it better for consumer trade shows, and build a new center downtown for industry shows. But we don't have money for both. What we do have is enough money to do one of the projects. What's the better choice? I don't know. Imagine sitting down in front of two pie pans. On the left you've got pumpkin; on the right, apple. You've already got a pretty big piece of pumpkin on your plate, and a sliver of apple(both previously taken from the pies). You can take another slice from one of the pies. If you take it from the pumpkin, you will have taken almost the entire pie. But the new slice won't be all that large as you had already taken most of the pie before. If you take a slice of the apple, it will be a much larger slice of pie than the new pumpkin slice, but the new slice of apple combined with the sliver of apple on your plate will only be about the same size as the original slice of pumpkin.

Or to put it another way, we can choose to be excellent in one area(consumer) and give up on the other(industry), or we can try to be reasonably good at both, but excel in neither. Both arguments are valid.
.

[Gully]

Some really interesting points in this thread. I'm not sure what to think.

Downtown Fargo is growing on me a bit, now that they suddenly have an interest in NDSU. It's just really hard for me to get used to having large events down there (parking, etc.) The other problem I have is there really aren't more hotels downtown than by the Fargodome are there? Hodo is awesome but they don't have many rooms, that's more of a boutique hotel. Radissson is very nice. Hojo is a dump, but economical. Am I missing some?

If it's added to the Fargodome, I think it gives them the ability to host a wide range of different events. There are hotels and basic eating options in the area, but nothing fancy. Here's where I'll use downtown people's argument against them. Downtown is closer to the University/12th Avenue gates than the gates are to the Northwest edge of the campus. That argument should also work in reverse right? My point is, go to the trade show, go cleanup at your hotel, and then take a short cab or hotel shuttle downtown for a nice dinner at one of the many cool downtown restaurants and then have some cocktails at Hodo or the Bismarck depending on your style and then cab it back. Or bring your wife and stay at the Hodo, you cab it to the dome and she shops downtown all day.

Also, the money is supposed to be for the Fargodome, is it not? I think they'd really be stretching the original intent of things.

Finally, my limited government streak is telling me they're trying really hard to find a way to spend this reserve money. First it was a bb stadium attached to the Fargodome, now it's something else. I just hope they don't rush into a decision and hurry up and push something through just for the sake of spending the money. Make it worthwhile.

Hammersmith (as usual) makes some great points, but I guess I've talked myself back into a Fargodome centric solution, but I'm not even sure that is a good idea. Will the Fargodome need the money later for maintenance, etc?

What am I missing?

[NDSU_grad]

I think your argument is bit off. I say this from the perspective of someone who attends plenty of Industrial trade show/professional conference (as both a participant and sometimes as a vendor) and I also sit on a committee for an organization that plans organizes a professional group's annual conferences.

I can say without a doubt (from an organizations standpoint) Reno followed by LV and Orlando ares shit places to host conferences--too much for the attendee to do and in turn attendees they do not spend enough time looking at the whizzbangs or the consulting services offered by the vendors.

Why is this important--- because the vendors are how the hosting group pays for the conference...actually in a lot of instances these conferences are so profitable that create enough $$$ to run the group's annul operating expenses. A good conference will typical bring $5-7K for a standard booth (more for prime locations) BTW its super expensive for a vendor because you have the conference fee on top of the facility charges (table, chairs, table drape, extension cords, carpet in the booth, electricity, WIFI, etc). The point being, the conference makes it $$$ by inviting vendors who pay for floor space, the facility makes its $$$ by charging the vendors for services and the vendors make their $$$ selling services/products to the conference goer. If a facility does not have space for vendors to pimp their product/services its not a real option for an organization to use as a location.

I should also not that Ironically, location and the towns amenities are not what drives conference attendance..the quality of both the speakers and the vendors show drive attendance. As such, when planning a conference an Organization is looking at the following 1) facility has multiple meetings rooms; 2) Facility has catering services; 3) facility has a place so vendors can demonstrate their product/services 4) the facility has hotel accommodations with in walking distance. 5) the facility has easy access to the city and easy accesses form the airport to the facility. 6) price (which is why LV, Reno and Orlando are popular choices even if tho they suck---cheap beyond belief!!!!

Again, keep in mind, the organization hosting the conference wants the attendees to be in the vending area ever moment they are not listing to a speaker attended a training etc.

A typical day for these of conferences usually goes like this
Morning: eat breakfast at the conference, attend morning session usually consisting of educational courses, certification, Association business (member voting committee work) etc.

The sessions are typically 45min long with a 15min break between each session---refreshments are served in the Vendor area. (for obvious reason)

Lunch: Food is served at the conference and then there is some sort of event coordinated in the vendor area....typically its a vendor quest for a prize (gotta keep those guys happy and the only way they are happy is when faces are coming around their booths).

Afternoon: Several breakout session (multiply options to choose from). again breaks between the session with refreshment served in the Vendor area.

Each day of the conference closes by the organization hosting some sort of event in the vendor area---typically free booze and finger food are available (Again, because the vendors are how the conference makes it money and you best keep them happy).

Anyway, This will go on for 2 or 3 days and the final day of the conference will be kicked off by an evening reception with dinner and entertainment held at the conference location.

My point----, DT does nothing to improve the Domes position to hosts these types of events. Sure it makes it nice for the guy attending the conference---there is atmosphere outside of the conference area. However, like I said, the organization hosting the conference makes it $$$ selling booths to vendors...they want the attendees in the vending area not walking around Downtown. The location of the Dome is actually perfect.

But I think Hammer's point still stands when it comes to professional conferences. The vendors are secondary in most professional conferences. I can think of two off the top of my head I attend annually where the speakers are definitely the main attraction. And people are going to these conferences for entertainment. You want multiple dining choices to interact and conduct business with colleagues after the show closes each day. You want a walkable area nearby just so you can get some fresh air during breaks and after show hours.
You mentioned Reno. One of the conferences I attend annually had their annual meeting in Reno in 2012, while last year it was in San Diego. Reno sucked donkey balls. You were confined to your hotel/casino because there were no other dining/entertainment options within walking distance. In San Diego, we were right on Mission Bay, with about 20-30 bars/restaurants a 1/4 mile away.
I think downtown Fargo would be a great option for a convention center for these types of show.

[NorthernBison]

I don't see Fargo doing BOTH. One of the driving forces for the Fargodome was to replace the Civic. Now there is a push to spend $50 Million to put in what is essentially a new Civic Downtown? BTW, when it comes to Professional Conferences we must be talking HUGE Conferences right? There's plenty of Conference Centers in town that can handle the modest sized ones.