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Thread: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    Great reply from John Wagner, but I call BS. If you walked on the field after the game, it was clear the turf between the hashmarks was a disaster. Not only that, much of the field was dead, dry grass, painted green. Even if it wasn't Houston, they had to have known they had a problem. In previous years the field was like a putting green. This year it was more like an undulating sand trap. Bohl expressed concern before the game, and we're lucky there weren't more injuries. Heads should roll.

    From the Rose Bowl article linked above:
    You're wondering, probably, how it will stay put for the BCS game, since it's sod atop sod, and there's no way it can root. The simple answer: sheer heft. The rolls are 50 feet long, three feet wide and a brick-like three inches thick.

    They weigh more than your Kenmore and nothing — not a fullback's karate kick or a tuba player's stutter step — could ever unseat it.
    The key for the grounds crew is to get the seams jigsaw tight, so the whole quilt becomes one.
    Guessing that some bean counter decided it cost to much to replace the sod, again.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    I'm all about second chances. I vote we hold the Spring Game down there... they get to redeem themselves and we get another visit to 3rd base. :thumbup: A win win.

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  3. #13
    OrygunBison's Avatar
    OrygunBison is offline Senior Member Gets their mail at the West Parking Lot
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    Quote Originally Posted by 56BISON73 View Post
    I find it interesting that the field where the championship game was played last night had a brand new field installed ON TOP of the old field and there were no issues. Plus that new field was to be removed after the game was played.
    Southern California and North Texas are nothing alike in terms of weather and the ability to consistently - meaning every year for the next 30 years - maintain a grass field in Frisco that is championship quality is completely futile. I know that everyone likes to play on very nice grass but there is a reason why most of the country is going to fieldturf.

    The real interesting thing is why they decided on a grass field in the first place. This game will be a very strong case study for years to come. I wouldn't doubt if Frisco switches out at some point. They are asking the impossible of their staff. It isn't smart and it is very expensive to even try.
    Insert something clever here...

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    We need to find a darn Hort major to chime in!

  5. #15
    kab1one is offline Senior Member Gets their mail at the West Parking Lot
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrygunBison View Post
    Southern California and North Texas are nothing alike in terms of weather and the ability to consistently - meaning every year for the next 30 years - maintain a grass field in Frisco that is championship quality is completely futile. I know that everyone likes to play on very nice grass but there is a reason why most of the country is going to fieldturf.

    The real interesting thing is why they decided on a grass field in the first place. This game will be a very strong case study for years to come. I wouldn't doubt if Frisco switches out at some point. They are asking the impossible of their staff. It isn't smart and it is very expensive to even try.
    So why not add the systems in which the field is kept warm and grass will grow? Like they are going to do at TCF for the vikings. Expensive, but you have this game and soccer.

    How about overseeding like they do on southern golf courses and water?

    Was the weather that much better prior to the game two years ago?

    I don't remember.

    Where did all the dust come from this weekend? Had the place been watered?

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    Quote Originally Posted by WYOBISONMAN View Post
    We need to find a darn Hort major to chime in!
    I suppose I'll take the bait and put my NDSU turfgrass management degree to use....I was at the game in 2012 and 2013, and the surfaces were excellent for those games. I didn't make it this year, so I'm only going off of what I saw on TV, and yes, it looked awful. One thing that is code for turf professionals is that don't be quick to judge, because we've all been there and no two situations are identical. Remember, the playing surface is a living entity and there are a lot of variables that go into maintaining it.

    Weather was the main culprit. Even in the south, sodding a field in November and getting it to take a good stand is a tough task. Throw in an ice storm and you get the result they had. As the guy said, 80% was rooted, and it's not like the 20% is going to be in one uniform chunk, it is sporadic throughout the field. In between the hashes was obviously the worst, but that is where the most wear and tear is on any natural grass field. I'm not sure what the weather was like in December in Frisco, but if it was cooler than normal it obviously would have a negative effect. Those asking why the bad sod wasn't replaced---who is to say that if it were replaced the new sod would have taken root? Asking the grass to root in December when bermuda isn't aggressively growing is a pretty tight window to be ready for a championship game the first weekend in January. Can't control mother nature.

    The comparisons to the Rose Bowl aren't fair at all. I'm a golf course superintendent, and it's not fair to me if members compare my course to Augusta National during Masters week when my budget is a drop in the bucket compared to the green jacket's. Same thing with the Rose Bowl--the costs to maintain that have to be ridiculous. It seems insane to me to lay and entire new field of 3 inch sod when by all accounts the original field was still in great shape. That new sod that was overlay has to be all ripped out now--you can't just lower the level of your 100 sprinkler heads by 3 inches (they also had to raise the goal posts to match the new field). The actually work and and money that go into this is pretty amazing. So yea, Frisco's budget isn't going to be up to par to be able to take on a job like that. Not to mention that the growing climate in Texas is very much different than that of California. Apples and oranges comparison when it comes to growing grass.

    Someone had asked about why they couldn't overseed like southern golf courses do---those courses over seed with ryegrass, which is a fine surface to play golf on, but would not with stand the punishment that a football game would give. The field in Frisco was bermuda. (Side note--rye grass prices are through the roof, because demand is down thus less producers as more and more southern golf courses are going away from overseeding because the costs and effort are very high, while there are other methods of achieving high quality playing surfaces).

    That being said, I do question why something wasn't done to correct the ice storm situation. If it was a freak storm and the field couldn't have been covered before hand, it surely could have had the ice removed the day after, not wait a week. I monitor my golf greens and have a threshold for how long they can have ice cover--and if they reach it, I'm getting the ice off come hell or high water. My guess is it had more to do with cooler weather afterwords. As far as it being "dry"--I couldn't tell on TV--was it "dust" flying up or was it the sand base being torn up with the sod being ripped off and flung in the air?

    The truth of the matter is, without getting to talk to the grounds superintendent and finding out exactly what went into the field and what maintenance practices were done, there is no way of knowing exactly what went wrong. When it comes to turf, very seldom is there just 1 reason things go poorly, rather it is a whole culminating effective of environmental and budgetary factors that give you an end result that we saw. Again, I won't judge, but I do have technical questions I'd love to have answers to from the grounds crew themselves.

  7. #17
    gotts's Avatar
    gotts is offline Senior Member Gets their mail at the West Parking Lot
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    Quote Originally Posted by NDSUmulligan View Post
    I suppose I'll take the bait and put my NDSU turfgrass management degree to use....I was at the game in 2012 and 2013, and the surfaces were excellent for those games. I didn't make it this year, so I'm only going off of what I saw on TV, and yes, it looked awful. One thing that is code for turf professionals is that don't be quick to judge, because we've all been there and no two situations are identical. Remember, the playing surface is a living entity and there are a lot of variables that go into maintaining it.

    Weather was the main culprit. Even in the south, sodding a field in November and getting it to take a good stand is a tough task. Throw in an ice storm and you get the result they had. As the guy said, 80% was rooted, and it's not like the 20% is going to be in one uniform chunk, it is sporadic throughout the field. In between the hashes was obviously the worst, but that is where the most wear and tear is on any natural grass field. I'm not sure what the weather was like in December in Frisco, but if it was cooler than normal it obviously would have a negative effect. Those asking why the bad sod wasn't replaced---who is to say that if it were replaced the new sod would have taken root? Asking the grass to root in December when bermuda isn't aggressively growing is a pretty tight window to be ready for a championship game the first weekend in January. Can't control mother nature.

    The comparisons to the Rose Bowl aren't fair at all. I'm a golf course superintendent, and it's not fair to me if members compare my course to Augusta National during Masters week when my budget is a drop in the bucket compared to the green jacket's. Same thing with the Rose Bowl--the costs to maintain that have to be ridiculous. It seems insane to me to lay and entire new field of 3 inch sod when by all accounts the original field was still in great shape. That new sod that was overlay has to be all ripped out now--you can't just lower the level of your 100 sprinkler heads by 3 inches (they also had to raise the goal posts to match the new field). The actually work and and money that go into this is pretty amazing. So yea, Frisco's budget isn't going to be up to par to be able to take on a job like that. Not to mention that the growing climate in Texas is very much different than that of California. Apples and oranges comparison when it comes to growing grass.

    Someone had asked about why they couldn't overseed like southern golf courses do---those courses over seed with ryegrass, which is a fine surface to play golf on, but would not with stand the punishment that a football game would give. The field in Frisco was bermuda. (Side note--rye grass prices are through the roof, because demand is down thus less producers as more and more southern golf courses are going away from overseeding because the costs and effort are very high, while there are other methods of achieving high quality playing surfaces).

    That being said, I do question why something wasn't done to correct the ice storm situation. If it was a freak storm and the field couldn't have been covered before hand, it surely could have had the ice removed the day after, not wait a week. I monitor my golf greens and have a threshold for how long they can have ice cover--and if they reach it, I'm getting the ice off come hell or high water. My guess is it had more to do with cooler weather afterwords. As far as it being "dry"--I couldn't tell on TV--was it "dust" flying up or was it the sand base being torn up with the sod being ripped off and flung in the air?

    The truth of the matter is, without getting to talk to the grounds superintendent and finding out exactly what went into the field and what maintenance practices were done, there is no way of knowing exactly what went wrong. When it comes to turf, very seldom is there just 1 reason things go poorly, rather it is a whole culminating effective of environmental and budgetary factors that give you an end result that we saw. Again, I won't judge, but I do have technical questions I'd love to have answers to from the grounds crew themselves.
    So does this mean you'll help me with my lawn this spring? I'll pay your mobilization charge to come over.
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  8. #18
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrygunBison View Post
    Southern California and North Texas are nothing alike in terms of weather and the ability to consistently - meaning every year for the next 30 years - maintain a grass field in Frisco that is championship quality is completely futile. I know that everyone likes to play on very nice grass but there is a reason why most of the country is going to fieldturf.

    The real interesting thing is why they decided on a grass field in the first place. This game will be a very strong case study for years to come. I wouldn't doubt if Frisco switches out at some point. They are asking the impossible of their staff. It isn't smart and it is very expensive to even try.
    They have natural grass because the stadium is a soccer stadium. It was not built to host one or two football games a year, it was built to be the home of a Major League Soccer team. Soccer along with being hated by many on this board is also known for being a sport in which teams are VERY particular about playing on natural grass surfaces. Google soccer and artificial turf sometime, its comical how bent out of shape organizations get when having to play on turf, most refuse to do so.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    You guys do realize that the field has high school football games every weekend in November, right? My friends that live down there were saying it averages out to be 2 games a weekend.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Email following complaint about Toyota Stadium......very stand up!

    Quote Originally Posted by gotts View Post
    So does this mean you'll help me with my lawn this spring? I'll pay your mobilization charge to come over.
    I'll get you a quote on that mobilization charge, but I'm guessing it's the same as the rental fee for your snow blower the next time we get a foot of snow!

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