You Make the Call

[missingnumber7]

Any other comments on this play? You might want to care about this one because if you liked onside kicks you probably aren't going to like this rule change.

I think that is going to be difficult to officiate with 5 man, let alone 4 man. It becomes a definate judgement call and basically takes onside kicks out of the game if I were a coach.

For those who don't know the rule change here it is:

After experimentation in Minnesota and Iowa, the committee revised Rule 9-3-8 to prohibit members of the kicking team from initiating contact (blocking) against members of the receiving team until the ball has broken the plane of the receiving team’s restraining line, or until the kicking team is eligible to recover the free kick.

I am interested to see how they are going to word it in the rule book, is it going to say blocking or is it going to say contact...to very different things. I can contact a player without blocking, or intending to block him from the ball.

I also know that Iowa did experiment with a rule that there must be a minimum of 4 players on each side of the kicker. Interesting that they didn't include that into the rule as well. Although I think that with the contact rule they would eliminate that mass number on one side especially if the rule is enforced equally across the board. I know that that is an issue that we see in our area, especially when I meander into SD to officiate a few games, is the lack of consistency on some new rules, especially illegal equipment.

[stevdock]

Is there any other reason for changing the onside kick rule other than player's safety? I know Joe blew up a Kansas City guy either last year or the year before, but there aren't that many injuries that happen on an onside kick. Especially when considering there is normally at most 1 per game. In our 15 games, how many onside kicks did we see last year?

This is not like the defenseless receiver nit-picky stuff where it could happen multiple plays in a row. Instead this is a play that for most teams only happens a few times each year.

[RunDMc34]

Ok maybe a few of you officials out there can help me as this was a real play that happened during my last season coaching jv football.

Ball is at the A35 yrd line. A 15 drops back to pass during that drop back A 76 and B 90 get into a scuffle at the line of scrimmage where a refree throws a flag for unsportsmanlike conduct on both players. A 15 then precedes to throw an interception to B 20 at the B45 yard line. B 20 returns the ball to the A40 yrd line where he is facemasked by A 68 and is brought to the ground.

Who gets the ball? How should the 3 penalties be marked off? How the heck can all of this happen on a single play?

No bonus for getting it right as I don't have a clue what the correct call really is.

[IndyBison]

Ok maybe a few of you officials out there can help me as this was a real play that happened during my last season coaching jv football.

Ball is at the A35 yrd line. A 15 drops back to pass during that drop back A 76 and B 90 get into a scuffle at the line of scrimmage where a refree throws a flag for unsportsmanlike conduct on both players. A 15 then precedes to throw an interception to B 20 at the B45 yard line. B 20 returns the ball to the A40 yrd line where he is facemasked by A 68 and is brought to the ground.

Who gets the ball? How should the 3 penalties be marked off? How the heck can all of this happen on a single play?

No bonus for getting it right as I don't have a clue what the correct call really is.

I assume you are talking HS rules. It's an ususual play and fortunately one I've never seen. First it's very important to know if the fouls on A76 and B90 are unsporstmanlike conduct (usually non-contact actions) or personal fouls (usually involve contact). If they were personal fouls you have live ball fouls by both teams before the change of possession so the down will be replayed as the penalties offset. It doesn't matter that A fouled again after the change of possession.

If the action at the LOS was unsportsmanlike conduct they are enforced in the order they occurred from the succeeding spot. That is determined by the end of the down and after all other live ball penalties are enforced. The face mask would be first and that would give B the ball at the A25. Then it depends on who fouled first at the LOS. If A was first then the ball goes to the A12.5 (half the distance) and back 15 to the A27.5. If B was first then the ball goes back to the A40 and then forward to the A25. If you can't determine the order or they were simultaneous, the penalties offset. Unless it was obvious A fouled first I would leave the ball at the A25 (philosophy).

[IndyBison]

Is there any other reason for changing the onside kick rule other than player's safety? I know Joe blew up a Kansas City guy either last year or the year before, but there aren't that many injuries that happen on an onside kick. Especially when considering there is normally at most 1 per game. In our 15 games, how many onside kicks did we see last year?

This is not like the defenseless receiver nit-picky stuff where it could happen multiple plays in a row. Instead this is a play that for most teams only happens a few times each year.

This rule change is for NCAA only. The NFL, NCAA, and NFHS work under completely different rule books. There are many similarities but this one is different. I'm not sure how the NFL rule book reads on this one.

From what I've heard this was entirely a safety issue. The logic is the receiver is no less vulnerable on one of these immediate high hops then he would be on a pooch kick that never touched the ground. You are right that they don't happen often but I would get someone was injured or a coach was very concerned by the potential for injury on a play like this. In NCAA the rules committee is made up entirely of coaches. A former official gets to write the rule book but he only writes what the coaches propose and pass.

[IndyBison]

Original play:
Team A executes an onside kick at the A35 and the ball goes high into the air. Receiver B22 is standing in position to receive the ball at the A47. Just as B22 is about to grasp the ball A66 leaps within a yard in front of him, grabs the ball and lands on the ground at the A49 with the ball firmly in his control. (a) The ball is kicked directly into the air off the tee; (b) the ball is driven off the tee directly into the ground and rebounds into the air in the manner of the ball in (a); (c) it is very difficult to tell whether the ball hits the ground before going high into the air or flies into the air directly off the tee.

Im guessing here because I believe the rule for the A situation is different in NCAA and NFHS but it would be kick catching interfearance in A and thus B's ball at the 49. And in B and C it would be A's ball at the 49.

You are correct for HS rules and you would have been mostly correct for NCAA rules until this year. The foul in NCAA is called interference with an opportunity to receive the kick and it is a 15-yard penalty from the spot of the foul. B's ball at the A32.

I'm going to say it is interference with the ability of the player to catch the kick. Rule applies whether it was kicked into the ground or not. You must give him the chance to catch the ball. Just an educated guess based on a few things I've read spiced with a healthy dose of "trick question" cynicism.

This is the key aspect of the rule change. When the rule change came out I only thought of the situation where the A player hit the B player before he touched it. I hadn't thought of the situation where the A player leaps and possesses the ball before B touches it. Both have been the same foul on pooch kicks but now both are also fouls on the one bounce high-hoppers. Successful onside kicks will need to either be squibbers or the kickers will have to make sure there are two quick hops before it bounces.

I will admit that KO's are probably the worst enforced and knowledgeable areas for most officials and definately mine as well. Much like the opening tip for basketball officials, it doesn't happen often enough to make it a focus and so we breeze over the rules and generally learn the high points, or whatever is changing and move on.

I see these types of plays discussed a lot but I agree you don't see them very often. You can talk about rules all the time but you don't always get it committed to memory until you see it live and sometimes several times. The only time officials get to "practice" is in scrimmages and kicking plays are rarely ever used and if they are they are usually not full speed/full contact.

I think that is going to be difficult to officiate with 5 man, let alone 4 man. It becomes a definate judgement call and basically takes onside kicks out of the game if I were a coach.

For those who don't know the rule change here it is:

After experimentation in Minnesota and Iowa, the committee revised Rule 9-3-8 to prohibit members of the kicking team from initiating contact (blocking) against members of the receiving team until the ball has broken the plane of the receiving team’s restraining line, or until the kicking team is eligible to recover the free kick.

I am interested to see how they are going to word it in the rule book, is it going to say blocking or is it going to say contact...to very different things. I can contact a player without blocking, or intending to block him from the ball.

I also know that Iowa did experiment with a rule that there must be a minimum of 4 players on each side of the kicker. Interesting that they didn't include that into the rule as well. Although I think that with the contact rule they would eliminate that mass number on one side especially if the rule is enforced equally across the board. I know that that is an issue that we see in our area, especially when I meander into SD to officiate a few games, is the lack of consistency on some new rules, especially illegal equipment.

You are referring to the new HS rule. I was talking about the new college rule. This HS change is very similar to what has been in college for at least a few years. I've been told the mechanics manual is also being changed to have 3 of the 5 officials around the restraining lines which would help if you have an unexpected onside kick. Unlike the college change you can still block the R players once the ball has touched the ground and gone 10 yards or touched an R player. The one hop high kick is still fair game for both teams once it has traveled 10 yards.