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Thread: Summit Expansion?

  1. #831
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAugustana View Post
    I understand that I am an Augie fan, so maybe I just have a skewed perspective on this, but if anyone is willing to explain to me why this is SUCH a horrible thing, I would love to better understand it. Even if the response is condescending in nature, helping me get some clarity on why this is an issue would be good. (Although a non-condescending answer would be even cooler.)

    Does anyone really think partially resembling the NCC lowers the profile of the conference nationally? Do people think there are analysts or sports fans out on the coasts or in other parts of the country who are going to say, "Wow, that league sure looks a lot like the old Division II NCC. It must really suck."? I would assume the answer to that question is no, but I have been wrong before. It just seems very unlikely to me.

    I keep reading on here that people don't want the "old NCC" back. How can it be any worse than adding a historically bad Kansas City team, or even having a team as consistently bad as Western Illinois in the conference?

    To be clear, I completely understand other reasons that have been listed for not wanting the Vikings to join the Summit League. I am specifically wanting to understand the argument about how adding a former NCC member is a bad look or is less "big time," particularly if Augie does come in and manage to compete at a high level before too long. And I don't mean to direct this specifically at you, Herdbot. I'm asking for a general understanding from whoever on here wants to respond.

    The only people who are going to even refer to or make mention of the old NCC will be the local media, and even that might stop after a year or two when everybody is over it. But it's not like is Summit League is going to announce that it is renaming itself the North Central Conference or something. At least, it would be very surprising if it did. So why is this such a big issue for so many fans of the other Dakota schools?
    I'll give it a go... It's kind of hard to explain, but Augie just doesn't have the feel of a D1 institution. I have nothing against Augie, I'm sure it's a fine school with a nice campus, successful alumni and all that good stuff, just not D1. I just have a hard time elevating a university to that level when their enrollment isn't much more than a public high school. The NCC was filled with schools of haves and have nots in the sense of resources.

    I'm not completely against Augie joining the Summit, btw. But if you try see it from the perspective of NDSU, would Augie joining the Summit move the needle? It's not "exciting" and a lot of it probably comes down Scandinavian pessimism, is this move going to do anything in terms of other teams joining? Is it going to deter other schools from being interested in joining a Dakota-centric conference? Does that get the conference to a number where they stop pursuing schools to join?

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  2. #832
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAugustana View Post
    I understand that I am an Augie fan, so maybe I just have a skewed perspective on this, but if anyone is willing to explain to me why this is SUCH a horrible thing, I would love to better understand it. Even if the response is condescending in nature, helping me get some clarity on why this is an issue would be good. (Although a non-condescending answer would be even cooler.)

    Does anyone really think partially resembling the NCC lowers the profile of the conference nationally? Do people think there are analysts or sports fans out on the coasts or in other parts of the country who are going to say, "Wow, that league sure looks a lot like the old Division II NCC. It must really suck."? I would assume the answer to that question is no, but I have been wrong before. It just seems very unlikely to me.

    I keep reading on here that people don't want the "old NCC" back. How can it be any worse than adding a historically bad Kansas City team, or even having a team as consistently bad as Western Illinois in the conference?

    To be clear, I completely understand other reasons that have been listed for not wanting the Vikings to join the Summit League. I am specifically wanting to understand the argument about how adding a former NCC member is a bad look or is less "big time," particularly if Augie does come in and manage to compete at a high level before too long. And I don't mean to direct this specifically at you, Herdbot. I'm asking for a general understanding from whoever on here wants to respond.

    The only people who are going to even refer to or make mention of the old NCC will be the local media, and even that might stop after a year or two when everybody is over it. But it's not like is Summit League is going to announce that it is renaming itself the North Central Conference or something. At least, it would be very surprising if it did. So why is this such a big issue for so many fans of the other Dakota schools?
    Oldmantutters nailed it.

    I'll add, you have to remember why NDSU and SDSU left the NCC. A big reason was to leave smaller, less resourced teams behind. We want nothing of that again. No, we are not delusional; a P5 invite is impossible, but we did expect to be free of small private schools like Augie and Morningside.......

  3. #833
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bison"FANatic" View Post
    My concern would be would Augie be a penny pinching team when it comes to the outlay of money for coaching and scholarships. Are they going to be a team that is all in on things that come along like full cost of attendance or are they going to be the "well we are just a small school" we don't have the budget to cover increases that other teams in conference may want to implement. They would be the smallest college by far in the Summit I believe.
    So I think I have discussed this on here before, but to summarize my thoughts on that question, if Augie's administration puts the university through this process with plans to be cheapskates, I hope every single person involved is fired within a few years of making the transition. There is absolutely no reason to take a program that has been finishing in (I believe) the top 10-15 nationally in Division II in the All Sports rankings for the past seven or eight years and not intend to commit to a similar level of excellence at the D1 level. Not saying they will always finish in the top 15 of Division 1 in all sports, but that the athletic department and university absolutely need to be committed to athletic competitiveness and success to a degree they never were back in the NCC days. If the effort and funding being put into athletics now is any indication, I expect they will come in ready to be competitive, not just participatory. But, I obviously don't know that for sure. It would just be exceedingly disappointing if that's not the case.

    Based on everything I have heard from President Herseth-Sandlin about the overall goals for the university and why D1 athletics are key component of that vision, it seems unlikely they will come in looking to pinch pennies.

  4. #834
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by THEsocalledfan View Post
    Oldmantutters nailed it.

    I'll add, you have to remember why NDSU and SDSU left the NCC. A big reason was to leave smaller, less resourced teams behind. We want nothing of that again. No, we are not delusional; a P5 invite is impossible, but we did expect to be free of small private schools like Augie and Morningside.......
    Speaking of former NCC schools, I'd be fine if Minnesota State, Saint Cloud State, Minnesota-Duluth wanted to transition their schools to D1 and apply for Summit membership, or if UNC or UNI wanted to switch conferences to the Summit. You don't see many of us lamenting the fact UNO is in the conference (though I do now kinda wish they had an FCS football program). It's just none of us want to associate with Augustana or Morningside again. Those two schools couldn't keep pace in the NCC and they won't keep pace in Division 1. Morningside was wise enough to move to NAIA where they are pretty successful and fit the profile of the schools in the GPAC, maybe Augustana should go that route too.

  5. #835
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yote 53 View Post
    Speaking of former NCC schools, I'd be fine if Minnesota State, Saint Cloud State, Minnesota-Duluth wanted to transition their schools to D1 and apply for Summit membership, or if UNC or UNI wanted to switch conferences to the Summit. You don't see many of us lamenting the fact UNO is in the conference (though I do now kinda wish they had an FCS football program). It's just none of us want to associate with Augustana or Morningside again. Those two schools couldn't keep pace in the NCC and they won't keep pace in Division 1. Morningside was wise enough to move to NAIA where they are pretty successful and fit the profile of the schools in the GPAC, maybe Augustana should go that route too.
    At this point, what does it matter. Of the three sisters you mention I would say there is room for one of them at most. St Cloud State is a dumpster fire financially and UMD likes winning National Championships in Hockey so they are not going to risk anything that will financially hurt that program. That leaves us with Minnesota State which is the "basketball" school of the three. They have a DI ready basketball facility, are the closest to Sioux Falls,and fit into the Summit's new I29 identity. The only way they could do pull it off though is to drop Football and I'm not sure they are willing to do that. NDSU and SDSU will never support any new DI football programs in the middle of their prime recruiting footprint. However, if they were willing to join the Pioneer with Drake and Augie, maybe it would appease the XDSU's enough. The backlash would be extreme, but they should dump Women's Hockey while they are it if they want to be serious about a successful DI move.

    Prediction time: The addition of Augie will eventually lead to NDSU pushing football to the next level to separate itself from the old NCC schools again.

  6. #836
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    The Summit already owns SF, Augie just brings nothing to the table but another body. I also think Augie will hurt the SD schools, you are putting a mouth to feed right in the middle of the market they fight over. Just not a big enough population base for three DI schools.

    Looking at D2 history, playing Augie meant nothing to us. We had a football rivalry of sorts with Omaha, UNO also brought a presence in a market that the Summit wasn't in.
    "We're gonna go ahead and pin the Bison as the most successful small-conference DI sports program in America." -SBnation

  7. #837
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Western Illinois University lays off 132 faculty and staff:

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...304-story.html

    ......About 2,100 faculty and staff worked at Western as of fall 2018, according to the university fact book. The layoffs represents about 6 percent of that workforce......

    ......Overall enrollment at Western dropped from 11,094 in 2015 to 8,502 last fall, more than a 23 percent decline.

    Most state schools have struggled to recruit new freshmen students in the past four years. That category shrank by about 40 percent at Western since fall 2016......

  8. #838
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    15>1 clean out PM.

  9. #839
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by HerdBot View Post
    Cons. Its Augustana. It looks like the NCC. Not the sexy name everyone is looking for. Makes the conference look less big time.
    Quote Originally Posted by bruinbison View Post
    Western Illinois University lays off 132 faculty and staff:

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...304-story.html
    Because nothing says "big time" like major news outlet stories about universities already in the conference steadily falling apart.

    (Again, HerdBot, that's not a criticism of you or your post, as I've heard several Summit League fans express the same sentiments you expressed. I'm just using your post because it's available as a reference for that specific anti-Augie point.)

  10. #840
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    Default Re: Summit Expansion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAugustana View Post
    Because nothing says "big time" like major news outlet stories about universities already in the conference steadily falling apart.

    (Again, HerdBot, that's not a criticism of you or your post, as I've heard several Summit League fans express the same sentiments you expressed. I'm just using your post because it's available as a reference for that specific anti-Augie point.)
    I think it's more of a regional perception than a national perception. Someone in Florida has no idea how a school like Augustana compares to a school like Drake. They are just two small schools in the Midwest. I don't see the Summit adding Augustana as much of an impression nationally at all. But in the Dakotas and Minnesota people will have impressions of a school like Augustana both academically and athletically. That impression will largely influence their opinion of the Summit if they add a school like Augustana. The saturation of schools in the area will also have an impact as the same type of athletes will spread out to more schools.

    Could a school like Augustana be competitive in a conference like the Summit if they chose to invest properly in staff and facilities? Absolutely. But does the reputation of the conference regionally take a hit based on the general impression of them as a school? Possibly.

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