Bill to keep Sioux nickname

[CAS4127]

As usual, you're missing the point.

It's not that "Ralph" can take the arena away at this point. It's that he led the fight in the first place.

As you well know, when the arena was originally offered, the Fighting Sioux nickname was already under assault and the PC crowd was ready to cave. Ralph then made a hockey arena "Taj Mahal" offer that he hoped "was too good to refuse" and specifically tied that offer to the "Fighting Sioux" name. Kuppy denied that they were ever tied together, but Ralph came out and publicly confirmed that it indeed was.

So, did UND quickly disavow the agreement? Not on your life. And by not doing so, it simply confirmed and reinforced the notion that "UND", the school, was completely and utterly synonymous with "Fighting Sioux" hockey, and vice versa. Everything else that the school thinks it may or may not be, became at that time, the unofficially emasculated lap dogs to "Fighting Sioux" hockey. Football, Basketball, Aviation, Law......you name it.

Thus, the name - Fighting Sioux - has no "power" now, but for that given to it by the hockey crowd. The problem with that, however, is the reverse OF it. Because the nickname "power" resides within the hockey crowd only, they must now "bless" a new name in order for it to have any legitimacy or gain any traction. And that, I believe, will NEVER happen.........thanks to Ralph's original plan.

Don't kid yourself. Ralph got exactly what he wanted...............a UND that would forever be associated with "Fighting Sioux" hockey. Period.

Actually, what people (not saying you, just using your post as segue) don't seem to get is that no one anywhere gives a flat fuck about this issue other than here in Nodak. It's fucking ridiculous. Any media that is running with story outside of ND is just making UND a laughing stock--not that there is anything wrong with that.


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[Tatanka]

He'd better, if he wants to keep the hockey beat in a one horse town.

This here.

This article is only a shade or two away from the Derrick T Novak classic. Ten years from now we'll either still be dealing with thus assinine waste of time, effort, and taxpayer dollars, or we'll be laughing our asses off at the musings of un- hockey's biggest lap dog, er, kneepad model, er, fanboi.

[Hammersmith]

Actually you are wrong in one sense. This is a battle that gets easier over time really. In general society is moving away from this type of thing. The longer you wait the worse the nickname looks.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant don't blame them for not being able to keep the name. Had Clifford engaged both Sioux tribes on a regular basis, brought them into the decision making on the logo/name, and maybe given them a small cut of the trademark profits(into a scholarship or something), then I think the tribes would have gone to bat for UND versus the NCAA; just like the Seminoles did. But by the time Kuppy and Kelley were in power, the bad feelings were so ingrained that there was nothing they could do. You can't negotiate when at least one party won't even answer the phone. To get the tribes onboard, they had to feel like they shared ownership of UND's use of the name. But UND went out of their way for decades to basically say the opposite. Too late now, and too late in 2005. Maybe not too late in 1985 or 1975.

[Tatanka]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant don't blame them for not being able to keep the name. Had Clifford engaged both Sioux tribes on a regular basis, brought them into the decision making on the logo/name, and maybe given them a small cut of the trademark profits(into a scholarship or something), then I think the tribes would have gone to bat for UND versus the NCAA; just like the Seminoles did. But by the time Kuppy and Kelley were in power, the bad feelings were so ingrained that there was nothing they could do. You can't negotiate when at least one party won't even answer the phone. To get the tribes onboard, they had to feel like they shared ownership of UND's use of the name. But UND went out of their way for decades to basically say the opposite. Too late now, and too late in 2005. Maybe not too late in 1985 or 1975.

A whole hell of a lot of truth right here.

[td577]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant don't blame them for not being able to keep the name. Had Clifford engaged both Sioux tribes on a regular basis, brought them into the decision making on the logo/name, and maybe given them a small cut of the trademark profits(into a scholarship or something), then I think the tribes would have gone to bat for UND versus the NCAA; just like the Seminoles did. But by the time Kuppy and Kelley were in power, the bad feelings were so ingrained that there was nothing they could do. You can't negotiate when at least one party won't even answer the phone. To get the tribes onboard, they had to feel like they shared ownership of UND's use of the name. But UND went out of their way for decades to basically say the opposite. Too late now, and too late in 2005. Maybe not too late in 1985 or 1975.

Even as little as 10 years ago it might have worked as part of a two step process:

1. Drop the word Fighting.
2. Engage the tribes.

I think they would be in a way different boat right now if they had just done those two things. They could have employed this strategy as soon as they released the life rafts this time around and they might of had a chance. Time is not a friend of hubris. It doesn't care. Eventually everything comes back around.

[JMB]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant don't blame them for not being able to keep the name. Had Clifford engaged both Sioux tribes on a regular basis, brought them into the decision making on the logo/name, and maybe given them a small cut of the trademark profits(into a scholarship or something), then I think the tribes would have gone to bat for UND versus the NCAA; just like the Seminoles did. But by the time Kuppy and Kelley were in power, the bad feelings were so ingrained that there was nothing they could do. You can't negotiate when at least one party won't even answer the phone. To get the tribes onboard, they had to feel like they shared ownership of UND's use of the name. But UND went out of their way for decades to basically say the opposite. Too late now, and too late in 2005. Maybe not too late in 1985 or 1975.

Ah now I follow you.

[NDSU1980]

I didn't submit this, but wish I had. The UN_ people keep bringing up "Cavalry", but since most people get it mixed up with "Calvary", I think Calvary would have been a great name for them. Their teams usually get crucified on the field of play anyway.

[The_Sicatoka]

I wish I could violently shake all of those FSH supporters who want to blame Kelley and Kuppy. Gods know I didn't like Kuppy, but it was neither of their faults. If you want to lay the blame somewhere, lay it at Clifford's feet. He was the last president to have enough influence to do something, and also do it early enough to make a difference.

Think of an asteroid barreling toward Earth. If you can get to it a hundred years before impact, you can just continually nudge it a bit. You don't have to shift the angle all that much to make it miss. But if you wait until a month before impact, you have to expend massive amounts of energy to shift its course enough to make it miss.

In the nickname fight, the nudging needed to start 30+ years ago. By the time Kuppy and Kelley took over, it was far too late. I only mention this because I saw a FSHS want to get an offspring of Clifford to fix this whole mess. Not without a time machine he's not.

Repeated for truth, but don't tell that to the folks that have sainted Tom Clifford.

[Tatanka]

Repeated for truth, but don't tell that to the folks that have sainted Tom Clifford.

Indeed. Usually the mention of Tom Clifford's name inspires a similar response to the following:

[Bison Loaf]

I wish I could violently shake all of those FSH supporters who want to blame Kelley and Kuppy. Gods know I didn't like Kuppy, but it was neither of their faults. If you want to lay the blame somewhere, lay it at Clifford's feet. He was the last president to have enough influence to do something, and also do it early enough to make a difference.

Think of an asteroid barreling toward Earth. If you can get to it a hundred years before impact, you can just continually nudge it a bit. You don't have to shift the angle all that much to make it miss. But if you wait until a month before impact, you have to expend massive amounts of energy to shift its course enough to make it miss.

In the nickname fight, the nudging needed to start 30+ years ago. By the time Kuppy and Kelley took over, it was far too late. I only mention this because I saw a FSHS want to get an offspring of Clifford to fix this whole mess. Not without a time machine he's not.

Repeated for truth, but don't tell that to the folks that have sainted Tom Clifford.

Either way, riddle me this................how can a "flagship" institution be so effing short-sighted and devoid of leadership?

If I were you and your ilk, I would be embarrassed as hell to even utter that word in connection with UND.