Fab 4 vs. Young Guns

This was brought up on the most recent Bison Video Blog and I thought it would be an interesting conversation. The question is how would the current young lineup would do against the starting lineup with the fab 4 in '09 that went tho the dance. It may be too early to objectively compare since these guys are only freshman and sophomores but hey, why not. Here is my projected lineup matchups.

Woodside-LA
Nelson-Felt or Hale
Winkleman-Wright
Mooreman-Bjorkland
Tweidt-Braun

You could mix up the assignments a little, for example if you think Braun on Winks is a better matchup. Anyways, discuss.

With no bench, it would be a 12-15 point win for the '09 team. Too much bball skill ansd smarts in that group. This squad could be better in a year, or even by the end of this season, but not quite yet.

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Originally Posted by Bison03

This was brought up on the most recent Bison Video Blog and I thought it would be an interesting conversation. The question is how would the current young lineup would do against the starting lineup with the fab 4 in '09 that went tho the dance. It may be too early to objectively compare since these guys are only freshman and sophomores but hey, why not. Here is my projected lineup matchups.

Woodside-LA
Nelson-Felt or Hale
Winkleman-Wright
Mooreman-Bjorkland
Tweidt-Braun

You could mix up the assignments a little, for example if you think Braun on Winks is a better matchup. Anyways, discuss.

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IMHO, Woodside owns LA at this point; Bjorkland as a soph>than Mooreman as a senior; Nelson wins the battle due to the size advantage over the other two; Tweidt slight advantage over Braun (can't teach experience); best match-up.......Winkleman vs. Wright. 09 Bison by 10 to 12 over 2011/12 edition. Wouldn't this be a fun one to watch !!!!

I'm not talking about bench depth. I'm just talking about straight up player vs player.

A Nelson/Winkleman wing combination is tough to beat because of their versatility. Nelson's movement without the ball and his triple threat ability to shoot the three, hit the mid-range and drive the ball gives him the edge at the two guard. Winkleman's rebounding to go along with his ability to score in the post and shoot the three at a very high percentage gives him the edge as well at the three. Both of these guys were so much more versatile and both hit the three ball at better than a 40% clip.

LA has Woody beat on defensive side of the ball but he has about 2000 more points to get before I would put him anywhere near Woody. As a point he still has a lot to prove as a go to man.

LA scored 22 against this team....this game was actually played this summer. He was the type of longer athlete that gave Woodside trouble, Woody ATE UP shorter guards likethe Kansas guard he lit up. The big difference between this team and the Woodside years was this team has high end athletes with lenght. Their lenght would give them fits. Would they win? Maybe...but in two years when this sophomore class is seniors and we have a couple of Junior PG's leading the way....it is a different story. It is just finally fun to think we have a team that could compete, the last couple years clearly could not. Gotta win tonight...because Woody and the boys didn't lose at home to a team they should beat.

^ The Valentine's Day masacre againt SUU, but I get what you are saying.

This team is young..............My opinion is that 09 team beats this team 2/3rds of the time! at most............this team we have is so athletic..............braun gaurding winkleman would be fun to watch........... bjorkland would beat moorman up..........of course this is all opinion........ was woodside as a senior better then LA as a freshman............scoring yes............defense no........well enough this is fantasy land..........im just gonna say that the bison could be crazy dangersous come tournament time this year!

They could have almost pulled this match up game off tonight since Moorman, Winks and Woody were all spotted tonight @ the BSA!

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Originally Posted by 1998braves64

They could have almost pulled this match up game off tonight since Moorman, Winks and Woody were all spotted tonight @ the BSA!

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along with Freddy and Josh too

I have nothing to add-->but fun to read the opinions given. Also fun to have competitive BB. From what I am reading, I need to go to some BB games.

Thanks for the insight, I am a fan!!

Right now, woody's team wins. Next year LA's team wins. The year after LA's team wins by 15. ;)

I know its hard for some people to stomach, but ben woodside was not the best basketball player that will ever spend time at NDSU. We will get considerably better than we were in 09.

Looked like a bunch of the Fab 4 were in the crowd watching the young guns last night. Nice to see the old players return and come back and support the team.

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Originally Posted by Bison03

This was brought up on the most recent Bison Video Blog and I thought it would be an interesting conversation. The question is how would the current young lineup would do against the starting lineup with the fab 4 in '09 that went tho the dance. It may be too early to objectively compare since these guys are only freshman and sophomores but hey, why not. Here is my projected lineup matchups.

Woodside-LA
Nelson-Felt or Hale
Winkleman-Wright
Mooreman-Bjorkland
Tweidt-Braun

You could mix up the assignments a little, for example if you think Braun on Winks is a better matchup. Anyways, discuss.

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Woodside vs LA = IMO This isn't as run away as people think. Yes LA has a couple thousand more points to go, but he also has 4 years less, considering Woodside redshirted. I love Woody as much as the next faithful Bison fan, but LA is very good right now.

Nelson vs Hale (starter) = I do think Nelson is much better, only because he was a legitimate mix between Hale/Felt. Hale is a better defensive player, and Felt is a better 3 point shooter, but Nelson was better, and more consistent in both areas than both of those 2 individually.

Winkleman vs Wright = For as great as Winkleman was, Wright is exactly the kind of player that Winkleman would play against and disappear from. I repeatedly saw Winkleman disappear in games like UofM, Fresno St, and against any competition that had long rangy athletes. Sure he had a couple good games, but not enough on a consistent basis to make me think he could handl Wright.

Mooreman vs Bjorklund = no contest, Bjorklund would absolutley eat him up alive, in all areas of the game.

Tviedt vs Braun = Tviedt is arguably one of my all time faves. He's alson IMHO not as good as Braun. Tviedt was a stellar defender who could shoot the 3. Braun is a stellar defender who can shoot the 3, get to the rim, play anywhere from the 1 to the 4, and absolutely fills up the stat sheet. Look at the dudes Arizona State stats = 16 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals. Are you kidding me?

I am probably one of the few that thinks this team would beat the Fab 4. When you sprinkle in guys like Felt and Carlson, I hneslty do think this team is just too well rounded, and could win matching up a few different ways against that team. Would be a hella fun game to watch.

I think it would be a coin flip now. When the current Sophomores are Seniors they would win pretty easily IMO.

Team chemistry has to be a factor too. Two of our starters are in their first year on the court and most of them are sophomores - give them two years to develop and jive as a unit and this team is going to be scary.

Going to be? This is a team! When braun is not scoring felt is when felt isn't Bjorkland is when he is not LA is it is absolutely a team! And a scary one wait till summit tourney times and getcha popcorn ready suck falls

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Originally Posted by unbison

Going to be? This is a team! When braun is not scoring felt is when felt isn't Bjorkland is when he is not LA is it is absolutely a team! And a scary one wait till summit tourney times and getcha popcorn ready suck falls

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True points both!

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Originally Posted by unbison

Going to be? This is a team! When braun is not scoring felt is when felt isn't Bjorkland is when he is not LA is it is absolutely a team! And a scary one wait till summit tourney times and getcha popcorn ready suck falls

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Preach it Brother! Love it.

Go Bison!!

I love this current team more than anyone, but I don't think you can compare these two teams yet. The tourney team had a true alpha dog point guard. He was lights out from 3, but most importantly he drove to the hole with a vengeance at the end of games. He either made, or you fouled him, and he was killer from the line. To add to that you had 3 other scorers (Tveidt, Nelson, Winkelman) with good size that could create their own shot and play above average defense. Lastly, just because Moorman wasn't a scorer people are really quick to write him off as basically a waste of space. I seem to recall him basically shutting down many stud post players on the defensive end. Maybe its because the KU game sticks out in people's mind when he was in foul trouble and Aldrich was just a beast.

I'm not saying don't have threads like this, they are great fun to talk about and just bring deserved recognition to both teams. I'm also not saying this team won't end up being the best ever, I'll be disappointed if they aren't. I'm just saying right now there is no way you can give the nod to the current team over the tourney team. More athletic all around? Sure. Better team, nope.

This team today and now is superior defensively...

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Originally Posted by unbison

This team today and now is superior defensively...

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Agree. The D is the foundation. No weak links in the starting lineup and enough versatility to switch liberally on most screens.

I know the 09 team won the league, league tourny and got to the NCAA, but the 05-06 team with Woody, Nelson, Winkleman, Smith and Moorman may have been the best team so far IMO. Andre Smith would have been a star on any team in the nation and was probably the biggest reason NDSU got their big wins at Wisconsin and Marquette on their home floors.

It's just too bad they couldn't have won at Minnesota as least once to really solidify the legacy of how good that team was.

For the two years Andre was on this team, every game they played against major conference schools with the exeception of one blow out at Kansas State was very competitive. This is rare for most mid-major programs. They put NDSU on the college basketball map and have given some of the coaching staffs at major conference schools second thoughts about scheduling the Bison since that time.

I would say this however, Bjorklund seems to be on a developmental stage to be the same kind of relentless low post scorer and rebounder Smith was. In other words, someone that can carry you when the outside shots don't fall. This fact along with the development of LA makes the future of Bison basketball very exciting.

I agree, the future is bright with this group of young men. It makes every game so much more fun to watch knowing that you have these guys for another few years. The Summit tourney this year is going to be a crap shoot. I would say there are 4-5 teams that could legitimately come out of there; NDSU being one of them. As far as our NCAA tourney team of 09. I'm sorry to burst the proverbial bubble here but these guys are too young to compete with the likes of a Woodside/Winkleman lead team. Woody would eat them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, then steal their girlfriend afterward, and make them pick up the check for the food he ate. It's that simple. This team may be young and more athletic, but that doesn't mean squat in college hoops. Some of the best ball players of all time were not that athletic. A seasoned team with a filthy leader like Woodside? No contest. These boys would hang for a half and then the 09 squad would gobble them up with brains, average D, Woody, and smooth shooting from 4 of the 5 guys on the court. In the end if this current team could keep it around a 15 point deficit that would be a good showing against a superior team. That 09 team wasn't a great defensive squad, but a great D wouldn't be enough to shut them all down. And nobody on the court would shut Woody down. It would be best to compare this team now to Woody's team when they were all sophs. That would be a good game.
Go Bison!!!

After 13 games in the 08-09 season: 8-5 with 6 DI wins over IPFW, Northern Arizona (twice), Georgia Southern, Centenary, Oral Roberts. Non-DI wins over Very Shitty and Mayberry. Losses to Stephen F. Austin, Oakland, USC, Minnesota, Idaho.

After 13 games in the 11-12 season: 10-3 with 8 DI wins over Northern Arizona, San Francisco, Louisiana-Lafayette, Fresno State, Wisconsin-Green Bay, Oakland, IPFW, IUPUI. Non-DI wins over Nebraska-Omaha and Mayberry. Losses to Minnesota, Arizona State and Western Illinois.

Seems to me they're doing better NOW as sophomores than the Fab 4 did as seniors.

Hmmmm nator for mayor! I agree I think these young guns would take them to task!
Nator u making it to frisco?

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Originally Posted by unbison

Hmmmm nator for mayor! I agree I think these young guns would take them to task!
Nator u making it to frisco?

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No, tix are a bitch to get, I'm watching on HD.

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Originally Posted by Ajaxnine

I agree, the future is bright with this group of young men. It makes every game so much more fun to watch knowing that you have these guys for another few years. The Summit tourney this year is going to be a crap shoot. I would say there are 4-5 teams that could legitimately come out of there; NDSU being one of them. As far as our NCAA tourney team of 09. I'm sorry to burst the proverbial bubble here but these guys are too young to compete with the likes of a Woodside/Winkleman lead team. Woody would eat them for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, then steal their girlfriend afterward, and make them pick up the check for the food he ate. It's that simple. This team may be young and more athletic, but that doesn't mean squat in college hoops. Some of the best ball players of all time were not that athletic. A seasoned team with a filthy leader like Woodside? No contest. These boys would hang for a half and then the 09 squad would gobble them up with brains, average D, Woody, and smooth shooting from 4 of the 5 guys on the court. In the end if this current team could keep it around a 15 point deficit that would be a good showing against a superior team. That 09 team wasn't a great defensive squad, but a great D wouldn't be enough to shut them all down. And nobody on the court would shut Woody down. It would be best to compare this team now to Woody's team when they were all sophs. That would be a good game.
Go Bison!!!

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This year's team wouldn't have lost a 15-round judge's decision to Stephen F. Austin (112-111 in 3OT) like the 09 team did. They would've put them away by midway thru the 2nd half. This year's team seems to be beating just about every non-Power 6 team they play (except for the shit night at WIU). The 09 team was more capable of losing to lower RPI teams than this year's team is.

One more reason why I think this year's team is better: In 09, our only good (and I use this term loosely) inside presence was Moorman, and when he left the court, we had to cross our fingers and hope we didn't get the rock rammed down our throats. Now this year, we obviously don't have Summit POY candidates playing inside for us, but Bjorklund, Braun and Aaberg are a better circumstance for us than Moorman, and after that... Lorenzo Riley??

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Originally Posted by TheBisonator

No, tix are a bitch to get, I'm watching on HD.

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Not anymore, lots on here and also there will be some available gameday

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Originally Posted by tjbison

Not anymore, lots on here and also there will be some available gameday

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Truth of the matter is that I was in a bad car accident outside of Toronto a few days ago, and I just finished recovering from aggressive food poisoning (stomache flu) earlier today. (this is why I haven't been on BV for 3-4 days) So right now I am in no mood to take a crazy wild road trip.

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Originally Posted by TheBisonator

This year's team wouldn't have lost a 15-round judge's decision to Stephen F. Austin (112-111 in 3OT) like the 09 team did. They would've put them away by midway thru the 2nd half. This year's team seems to be beating just about every non-Power 6 team they play (except for the shit night at WIU). The 09 team was more capable of losing to lower RPI teams than this year's team is.

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This years team is still too inconsistent which is why they lost to WIU. This team will be better with time, but it may not have been an off night and more to do with being young an inconsistent. They are likely to have more of these games which is why they are not as good overall as the '09 team was as seniors.

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Originally Posted by Bisonwinagn

This years team is still too inconsistent which is why they lost to WIU. This team will be better with time, but it may not have been an off night and more to do with being young an inconsistent. They are likely to have more of these games which is why they are not as good overall as the '09 team was as seniors.

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So what was the reason for the 09 team's "inconsistency" in losing to SFA and Idaho??

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Originally Posted by TheBisonator

So what was the reason for the 09 team's "inconsistency" in losing to SFA and Idaho??

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Lack of experience without the spread of talent to make up for the dry spots. Last season that talent was upgraded but when your team is dominated by young guys without seasoning those dry spells are still prominent. Now that we've upgraded in talent and gotten those guys some games under their belt we're seeing the increase in composure.

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Originally Posted by TheBisonator

So what was the reason for the 09 team's "inconsistency" in losing to SFA and Idaho??

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SFA was an NCAA tournament team....not exactly chopped liver.

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Originally Posted by DjKyRo

Lack of experience without the spread of talent to make up for the dry spots. Last season that talent was upgraded but when your team is dominated by young guys without seasoning those dry spells are still prominent. Now that we've upgraded in talent and gotten those guys some games under their belt we're seeing the increase in composure.

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Wut? I think you are referring to the wrong year :)

When comparing these two teams, season final results will have to be the same.

The next Bison team that wins the Summit League outright and wins the Summit League Conference Tournament can then be compared as equal-to or better. This feat takes a ton of mental toughness to go along with basketball talent.

This team does seem to have the potential to reach and perhaps surpass what those four did, but also look at all the pressure the Fab Four had... We have this group of FR and they're really good, in fact, most of them could start now (Fall '04), but we want them to have a chance to make the Dance, so we're going to RS all of them and see what happens. Every NDSU fan knew what was expected of that class and why none of them were on the court for that '04-'05 season, but for them to actually break through and accomplish what they did was awesome.

As far as athletic ability, it isn't even a contest. This year's group has more ability at every position as compared with those guys, but wasn't that the case almost every time that group touched the court? They ('04) weren't going to win many "jumping out of the gym" contests, but in physical toughness I think they would destroy this current team. Moorms and Bjorklund might be a wash, but otherwise, the fab four would have out-muscled them at every other position as they're currently built. I would presume that to get better the more time they have in the weight room, but that first year Woody, Winks, Dimer, and Moorms all added 15-20 lbs of muscle and it showed. This current roster has not had that luxury so it will take some time. I think this was very apparent the other night vs ORU, because when their big boys took it inside, physically we had absolutely no answer.

Also I have not seen where this team has had to take a last second shot or be in the position to make a small comeback at the end of the game, but who takes the shot/makes the play? From their FR year on, everyone knew it was going to be Woody and there was no debate. I would presume LA or Braun would be the one to take it now, but do they have the confidence and the confidence of their teammates? Just curious.

Also FWIW, there is no way Woody would be guarding LA - that assignment would have been passed on to Dimer which would have allowed Woody to drift around the perimeter following Hale or Felt around. My guess is Tveidt would have drawn the assignment of guarding Braun and Winks on Wright as I would say Tveidt was a slightly better on the ball defender. Either way, some fun matchups.

Whoever said 2005-06 team was better than the 2008-09 team, may actually be on to something. I always thought if Dre woulda been around in 2009, we coulda beat KU. He was such a gifted player for his size, he was always a matchup problem for every team that faced him.

Obviously its a dream world, but fun to think about and discuss.

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Originally Posted by unbison

Going to be? This is a team! When braun is not scoring felt is when felt isn't Bjorkland is when he is not LA is it is absolutely a team! And a scary one wait till summit tourney times and getcha popcorn ready suck falls

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This is accurate. Scary good potential that isn't quite ready yet. Maybe the conference schedule will get them ready just in time for the tourney. I could see us going to the Big Dance this year.

Other good teams out there I know. But I doubt that there is a more talented team than the Bison.