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Bill to keep Sioux nickname
This is too comical:
Quote:
Fargo Rep. Al Carlson's bill says UND and the Board of Higher Education have to stop plans to drop the nickname.
http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/304507/
Edit: oops just saw the thread in smack.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Whats Al Carlson doing?????? Did he go to UND, or what?
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Carlson is doing the right thing, although his Bill will likely need amending. Many of us, including Bison like myself, want the nickname to stay. The faculty elite of the NCAA are pissing on the voters of Spirit Lake. They, who think are stopping hate, are making it worse by caving to the vocal minority as proved at Spirit Lake. Personally, I liked the other draft bill better, which states:
"A second bill draft circulating Monday, prepared for Rep. David Monson, R-Osnabrock, a former speaker of the House, would prohibit UND from retiring the nickname and logo unless the State Board receives written notice from leaders of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and the Spirit Lake Tribe “indicating the members of each tribe have voted in a tribal referendum to revoke the permission granted to the university to use the nickname and logo.”"
That would seem to make a lot of sense. If Standing Rock votes against it, I will fully support retiring the name.
The only question, I have, is if the bill passes, and Standing Rock refuses to have a referendum, what would be the cost to the state and UND? That may sway my mind a bit, but I love anyone who gives the NCAA the bird.
However, that may be unlikely as those who want the nickname to end, would be forced to gamble on the referendum. Otherwise, they have to live with it.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
I think it is great that Carlson stepped up to the plate. This is not a Sioux vs. Bison issue, it's a "Don't screw with North Dakota" issue. As Carlson said, people want to keep the logo. I did get a chuckle out of the quote in the paper...
Carlson said he wouldn’t be acting as a UND booster.
“I’m a Bison,” the NDSU graduate said, laughing.
Gotta give the guy credit, he is doing what he thinks is best for the state, and that is giving the NCAA the finger.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
blackhills
I think it is great that Carlson stepped up to the plate. This is not a Sioux vs. Bison issue, it's a "Don't screw with North Dakota" issue. As Carlson said, people want to keep the logo. I did get a chuckle out of the quote in the paper...
Carlson said he wouldn’t be acting as a UND booster.
“I’m a Bison,” the NDSU graduate said, laughing.
Gotta give the guy credit, he is doing what he thinks is best for the state, and that is giving the NCAA the finger.
Agree somewhat your last line, but what happens when this becomes an embarrassment nationally, or hinders teh und in scheduling*, or costs taxpayers $5M to f**k with....?
*playoffs?......playoffs?....don't talk about playoffs!!!
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
Carlson is doing the right thing, although his Bill will likely need amending. Many of us, including Bison like myself, want the nickname to stay. The faculty elite of the NCAA are pissing on the voters of Spirit Lake. They, who think are stopping hate, are making it worse by caving to the vocal minority as proved at Spirit Lake. Personally, I liked the other draft bill better, which states:
"A second bill draft circulating Monday, prepared for Rep. David Monson, R-Osnabrock, a former speaker of the House, would prohibit UND from retiring the nickname and logo unless the State Board receives written notice from leaders of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and the Spirit Lake Tribe “indicating the members of each tribe have voted in a tribal referendum to revoke the permission granted to the university to use the nickname and logo.”"
That would seem to make a lot of sense. If Standing Rock votes against it, I will fully support retiring the name.
The only question, I have, is if the bill passes, and Standing Rock refuses to have a referendum, what would be the cost to the state and UND? That may sway my mind a bit, but I love anyone who gives the NCAA the bird.
However, that may be unlikely as those who want the nickname to end, would be forced to gamble on the referendum. Otherwise, they have to live with it.
Is your support of the nickname based on being anti-PC or do you support UND?
I for one am not offended by the name itself, but the school it is associated with. In my eyes, anything bad that happens to that school is more enjoyment for me.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blackhills
I think it is great that Carlson stepped up to the plate. This is not a Sioux vs. Bison issue, it's a "Don't screw with North Dakota" issue. As Carlson said, people want to keep the logo. I did get a chuckle out of the quote in the paper...
Carlson said he wouldn’t be acting as a UND booster.
“I’m a Bison,” the NDSU graduate said, laughing.
Gotta give the guy credit, he is doing what he thinks is best for the state, and that is giving the NCAA the finger.
I wrote this earlier...He may have a degree from NDSU, but he is not and will never be a Bison.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
Notorious
Agree somewhat your last line, but what happens when this becomes an embarrassment nationally, or hinders teh und in scheduling*, or costs taxpayers $5M to f**k with....?
*playoffs?......playoffs?....don't talk about playoffs!!!
Yep, your concerns are valid, and will need to be carefully considered. However, if the bill passed saying the same won't be retired without a Standing Rock referendum, the NCAA will look pretty bad if somehow, UND and North Dakota in general can get the national media to pick up on the story and get some major press. Enough bad publicity, and the NCAA may be willing to relook at the agreement and amend to fit this idea.
Make no mistake on this: UND is being held hostage by the faculty elite of the NCAA. If you haven't heard my ramblings on this before, I had a certain President type, who fully thought UND was out to desparage native people and tell me that they made a deal with Satan in building the Engelstad arena. At that point, I decided I fully despise all of this ilk who are willing to sacrifice the will of the people, even those they think they are helping, to advance their own agenda. They are so sure of themselves and think that they know everything. They want to mold the world into their little utopia they think can be achieved......
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
Yep, your concerns are valid, and will need to be carefully considered. However, if the bill passed saying the same won't be retired without a Standing Rock referendum, the NCAA will look pretty bad if somehow, UND and North Dakota in general can get the national media to pick up on the story and get some major press. Enough bad publicity, and the NCAA may be willing to relook at the agreement and amend to fit this idea.
Make not mistake on this: UND is being held hostage by the faculty elite of the NCAA. If you haven't heard my ramblings on this before, I had a certain President type, who fully thought UND was out to desparage native people and tell me that they made a deal with Satan in building the Engelstad arena. At that point, I decided I fully despise all of this ilk who are willing to sacrifice the will of the people, even those they think they are helping, to advance their own agenda. They are so sure of themselves and think that they know everything. They want to mold the world into their little utopia they think can be achieved......
You do realize that there are people on UND's campus who have been opposed to the nickname for years, even before the NCAA came into play? Not everyone in ND is in favor of the logo and nickname.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
BemidjiBison11
Is your support of the nickname based on being anti-PC or do you support UND?
I for one am not offended by the name itself, but the school it is associated with. In my eyes, anything bad that happens to that school is more enjoyment for me.
It is the utter, and willful subversion of democracy that I hate. While I can't stand UND, I am hoping the legislature helps them land a solid body punch to the NCAA whom I despise more.
Remember, these are the same morons who make NDSU go through a 5 years transition.....
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
BemidjiBison11
You do realize that there are people on UND's campus who have been opposed to the nickname for years, even before the NCAA came into play? Not everyone in ND is in favor of the logo and nickname.
Ask the Spirit Nation what they think, then get back to me.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
Ask the Spirit Nation what they think, then get back to me.
Like I said, not everyone wants the nickname...What about Standing Rock? Oh yeah, they didn't think it was important enough to vote on the subject.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
BemidjiBison11
I wrote this earlier...He may have a degree from NDSU, but he is not and will never be a Bison.
Glad to see you have an open mind. I would be a co-sponsor on this bill. Does that eliminate me from being a Bison?
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
It is the utter, and willful subversion of democracy that I hate. While I can't stand UND, I am hoping the legislature helps them land a solid body punch to the NCAA whom I despise more.
Remember, these are the same morons who make NDSU go through a 5 years transition.....
Fair enough...However, I think what people are forgetting (not you specifically), is that this will have to pass the House, Senate and get approval from the governor...It seems like this bill is symbolic in nature and will never make it past the committees IMO.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
BemidjiBison11
Like I said, not everyone wants the nickname...What about Standing Rock? Oh yeah, they didn't think it was important enough to vote on the subject.
So, then UND must accept the vocal minority?
You know, I don't like that avatar you have, so you better change it. Now, you are going to do it, right? You have to. I told you you have to.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
BemidjiBison11
Fair enough...However, I think what people are forgetting (not you specifically), is that this will have to pass the House, Senate and get approval from the governor...It seems like this bill is symbolic in nature and will never make it past the committees IMO.
Here, I clearly agree with you. Kind of like the real healthcare bill at the fed level, although this may have a better shot if the right deep pocketed folks get involved and a carefully crafted bill emerges.
Again, no doubt to have any chance, very careful language and crafting will be required.
By the way, this is great politics this guy. Name is in the news, getting lots of pub.....
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
BemidjiBison11
In my opinion, it takes a lot of your credibility away.
And I also want to restart the football game. So that make me even less credible?
By the way, who broke the news on this board that USD was for sure going Summit/MVFC at the last minute?
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
So, then UND must accept the vocal minority?
You know, I don't like that avatar you have, so you better change it. Now, you are going to do it, right? You have to. I told you you have to.
Well, considering it affects their tribe directly, UND should have to follow the requirements set forth by the NCAA.
And my avatar is changed.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
It is the utter, and willful subversion of democracy that I hate. While I can't stand UND, I am hoping the legislature helps them land a solid body punch to the NCAA whom I despise more.
Remember, these are the same morons who make NDSU go through a 5 years transition.....
Not trying to pick a fight here, and I can see good points on both sides. However, one point people never mention is that no one is forcing NDSU, Und or any other school to be members of the NCAA. If you want to participate in the NCAA, you have to play by their rules, whether you like them or not (and I can think of a bunch I don't like).
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
And I also want to restart the football game. So that make me even less credible?
By the way, who broke the news on this board that USD was for sure going Summit/MVFC at the last minute?
No, I agree that the game should be renewed.
And my comment was out of line...I apologize.
I just don't understand how a Bison fan would want to support UND in any way.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
met1990
Not trying to pick a fight here, and I can see good points on both sides. However, one point people never mention is that no one is forcing NDSU, Und or any other school to be members of the NCAA. If you want to participate in the NCAA, you have to play by their rules, whether you like them or not (and I can think of a bunch I don't like).
Exactly...and to the point about publicity for Carlson....be careful what you wish for...he may not survive this.
Now, if only he would draft a bill to legislate a football game between teh und and NDSU.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
I'm wondering how all of this is going to effect recruiting and scheduling for all sports? If I was a UND recruit, would I want to go to a school that can not figure out their own nickname? How much of this whining and complaining about the nickname and logo is costing the university revenue?
Are either of these bills constitutional? If I were a UND fan maybe I would have a different take on the subject, but a ruling has been made, get over it. They could have had a new logo and nickname for people to get behind. They could be selling merchandise with the new logo and nickname and making money, and not spending who knows what insane amount of money just to complain.
UND would be better off by announcing a new logo and nickname. After a couple months of complaining people would get over it. Does a logo or nickname really affect if you are a supporter or fan of a university?
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
What I find interesting is all the support shown for the State Board of Higher Education by those who are anti-NDSU as long as the Board is reprimanding NDSU for their spending mishaps but yet will not support the Board's position on the nickname situation.
Seems like the Board's authority is only respected when ruling in favor of UND.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Quote:
Originally Posted by
met1990
Not trying to pick a fight here, and I can see good points on both sides. However, one point people never mention is that no one is forcing NDSU, Und or any other school to be members of the NCAA. If you want to participate in the NCAA, you have to play by their rules, whether you like them or not (and I can think of a bunch I don't like).
Agree with this, but the NCAA is so big, you can also argue that it is not very "voluntary." I admit that this is what killed UND in court.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
BemidjiBison11
Well, considering it affects their tribe directly, UND should have to follow the requirements set forth by the NCAA.
Thanks for the apology, but your comment above implies that the NCAA is speaking for the tribes. This is where I clearly disagree. The NCAA is a group of faculty elite presidents/chancellors who want to remake America in their politically correct image. I even wonder how many even have any Native blood? This idea they are speaking for the tribes cracks me up to no end.
I have come around that the tribes should be able to decide their own fate, but Standing Rock does not seem to be getting any chance to do so. Something fishy is going on with that council that they will not even allow folks to vote? If they are so sure the tribe is opposed, prove it and I will sink into my little hole. That is what Spirit Lake did, and the silent majority was finally able to speak their will.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
Notorious
Exactly...and to the point about publicity for Carlson....be careful what you wish for...he may not survive this.
Why would he not survive? You think we is misreading his tea leaves? Looks to me he is hitting a homerun.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
It was my understanding that UND, the SBOHE, and the State of North Dakota settled the lawsuit by agreeing to specific conditions. Agreement from all of the tribes was not received in the allocated time so we must change the nickname... something that is happening now.
While I could care less about the name, and I agree the NCAA executive board is ramrodding this thing, I would hope that our Legislators would spend their limited session time dealing with some of the real, critical problems affecting our state.
But that's just my opinion.
YMMV
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
Agree with this, but the NCAA is so big, you can also argue that it is not very "voluntary." I admit that this is what killed UND in court.
The case was ultimately settled out of court.
So, the NCAA settled in good faith with the State Board of Higher Education in 2007 after both sides spent millions of dollars on legal fees. The SBoHE was Represented by the North Dakota Attorney General who is coincidentally still the Attorney General. THe SBoHE is ultimately responsible to the Legislature right? But that same Legislature had no official problem with the settlement until now? The Iraqi Senate seems more organized than these clowns in Bismarck.
If this stupid bill were to pass and the State proceeded to file suit against the NCAA, who would represent the State? Probably the AG. What exactly does he say when the NCAA pulls out the settlement agreement that he helped draft and probably signed?
Must be fun to be a lawyer.
BTW, the second bill by Monson is even better. It looks like he is actually trying to force SR to vote. That might not be a good idea.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
Why would he not survive? You think we is misreading his tea leaves? Looks to me he is hitting a homerun.
I just think there will be some negative backlash. While I agree with your underlying arguement, I don't think this is the particular issue to "lead the charge" for democracy????
More negative, than positive, will ultilmately come from this....I think.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
Why would he not survive? You think we is misreading his tea leaves? Looks to me he is hitting a homerun.
Pfft. It's grandstanding. I suppose there is about a 1% chance that UND will "win" this fight and thus ensure another 50 years of controversy but it will cost millions of dollars.
Here's the problem I have:
Tom Clifford said that if the Tribal Councils formally objected to the nickname, then UND would have no ethical alternative but to drop the nickname. Over the next decade, every Sioux tribal council in the west asked UND to drop the nickname, but the new administration's position was that the tribes had no say and that dropping the nickname was entirely UND's decision. So UND put together a committee and put the decision in their hands. The committee recommended that UND drop the nickname so Kupchella went to the SBoHE to tell them but somebody told Ralph and Ralph browbeat the SBoHE into cutting Kupchella off and telling him that the decision was no longer UND's; instead it was the SBoHE's. The SBoHE said that "We say the nickname should stay." At NO POINT during any of this was putting the decision into the tribes' hands even considered. That only happened AFTER the NCAA stepped in. So, actually, the NCAA got nickname supporters to agree that the tribes had a say. To me, that's a good thing, and it would NEVER have happened without the NCAA stepping in.
Of course, the settlement didn't specify what would constitute tribal approval. The nickname people knew they'd never get approval from the tribal councils so they went with the popular vote. At Spirit Lake, "only" 35% wanted the nickname gone. At Standing Rock, the Tribal Council just repeated that their position hadn't changed.
BTW, a simple majority vote without and terms of agreement spelled out is not a permanent solution. That should be clear to anybody with adequate blood flow to their brain. Maybe a simple majority could instruct the tribal councils to negotiate a settlement but in no way is it a permanent solution.
FACT: UND could have solved this by spending the first 35 years negotiating a settlement with the tribes. However, their position was:
Quote:
Dear Tribes,
LOL! STFU!
Smell ya later,
UND
Now these guys want to renege on the settlement with the NCAA?
But does Skarphol really want the State of North Dakota to renege on a settlement? Or is he using this as part of his ongoing campaign to get rid of the SBoHE and have Higher Ed put in direct control of a committee that he just happens to run?
Don't kid yourselves: This is politics at its very worst.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
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Originally Posted by
tony
Pfft. It's grandstanding. I suppose there is about a 1% chance that UND will "win" this fight and thus ensure another 50 years of controversy but it will cost millions of dollars.
Here's the problem I have:
Tom Clifford said that if the Tribal Councils formally objected to the nickname, then UND would have no ethical alternative but to drop the nickname. Over the next decade, every Sioux tribal council in the west asked UND to drop the nickname, but the new administration's position was that the tribes had no say and that dropping the nickname was entirely UND's decision. So UND put together a committee and put the decision in their hands. The committee recommended that UND drop the nickname so Kupchella went to the SBoHE to tell them but somebody told Ralph and Ralph browbeat the SBoHE into cutting Kupchella off and telling him that the decision was no longer UND's; instead it was the SBoHE's. The SBoHE said that "We say the nickname should stay." At NO POINT during any of this was putting the decision into the tribes' hands even considered. That only happened AFTER the NCAA stepped in. So, actually, the NCAA got nickname supporters to agree that the tribes had a say. To me, that's a good thing, and it would NEVER have happened without the NCAA stepping in.
Of course, the settlement didn't specify what would constitute tribal approval. The nickname people knew they'd never get approval from the tribal councils so they went with the popular vote. At Spirit Lake, "only" 35% wanted the nickname gone. At Standing Rock, the Tribal Council just repeated that their position hadn't changed and that they wouldn't allow a vote.
BTW, a simple majority vote without and terms of agreement spelled out is not a permanent solution. That should be clear to anybody with adequate blood flow to their brain. Maybe a simple majority could instruct the tribal councils to negotiate a settlement.
FACT: UND could have solved this by spending the first 45 years negotiating a settlement with the tribes. However, their position was:
Now these guys want to renege on the settlement with the NCAA.
But does Skarphol really want the State of North Dakota to renege on a settlement? Or is he using this as part of his ongoing campaign to get rid of the SBoHE and have Higher Ed put in direct control of a committee that he just happens to run?
This is politics at its very worst.
I cannot comment on how accurate your summary is, but how can one have a deadline that does not allow the tribe to vote.
I had already conceeded that I had come around that the tribe should be able to have say, and would say this is the only good that has come from the NCAA meddling. However, I really don't think they give a damn what the majority of natives think. Now, we do live in a republic, be there are times that the pressure on elected officials make a direct democracy necessary, and this is a classic example. My problem, actually, has very little to do in how UND has handled the situation; just where we are now.
I have also made it clear that the costs of continue to fight this would need to be carefully considered before any vote.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
There are far more important issues that the legislature should be dealing with right now...
Explosive growth and lacking infrastructure in NW ND
Flood/Diversion for Fargo/Moorhead metro
Growing our state economy
Keeping our young talent in the state
Expanding airline service
Improving technology infrastructure
Education funding
..etc
But the "nickname" fight is more important than all these? Please.
Al Carlson just lost my vote. (There's no way he's a true Bison - he just happened to graduate from NDSU).
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
I cannot comment on how accurate your summary is, but how can one have a deadline that does not allow the tribe to vote.
It's very accurate... er, except for the 45 years deal. The controversy has only been around for a little over 40 years. :) I edited my post.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
In response to my statement that UND should change nickname/mascot/logo now, during the transition phase, and come out it with something recognizable that could be marketed, I was told by a huge Sioux supporter/fan late this Fall that "it ain't over yet", with a big smile on his face. I had no idea what he meant, but, apparantly, this is it.
Can't fix stupid, as the saying goes.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
The settlement simply indicated that approval from the Tribes had to be received in order to keep the nickname and logo. The NCAA has always taken the position that the Tribal Councils speak for the Tribe.
People can get all irate that SR Tribal Council refused to let the members vote. Fine. But, it's almost more obscene for us outsiders to dictate to the Council how to run their Reservation. We have zero business telling them they have to do anything.
At SR, they also elected a new Tribal Chair since the settlement and even he has refused to do anything more than reiterate their opposition to the nickname. An opposition that is backed by a resolution voted on by the Council many moons ago.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THEsocalledfan
Thanks for the apology, but your comment above implies that the NCAA is speaking for the tribes. This is where I clearly disagree. The NCAA is a group of faculty elite presidents/chancellors who want to remake America in their politically correct image. I even wonder how many even have any Native blood? This idea they are speaking for the tribes cracks me up to no end.
I have come around that the tribes should be able to decide their own fate, but Standing Rock does not seem to be getting any chance to do so. Something fishy is going on with that council that they will not even allow folks to vote? If they are so sure the tribe is opposed, prove it and I will sink into my little hole. That is what Spirit Lake did, and the silent majority was finally able to speak their will.
So now it is the responsibility of the State of ND to force a vote? I'm pretty sure that the Tribal Council has stated several times that their tribal gov't structure doesn't include the means for a referendum. If that is the case, should the State be able to change tribal government just so they can vote on something as trivial as a collegiate nickname??
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Green-N-Gold
So now it is the responsibility of the State of ND to force a vote? I'm pretty sure that the Tribal Council has stated several times that their tribal gov't structure doesn't include the means for a referendum. If that is the case, should the State be able to change tribal government just so they can vote on something as trivial as a collegiate nickname??
After talking to some people familiar with Reservation politics, tribal votes are unusual. Their standard procedure is for the elected Council to make decisions. That's why Tribal elections are so important. There is a great deal of power vested in the Council.
Historically, Council Members take their responsibilities very seriously and consider the good of the Tribe. Nickname supporters point to the petitions presented calling for a vote of the members. Well, there were also petitions presented at the same time that asked the council to avoid voting. These actually had more signatures.
The Council decision to not vote is heavily influenced by this conflict. Essentially, they prefer to have the Tribe's position decided by their own careful consideration than a vote that could be influenced by outside interests that don't necessarily consider the tradition of the tribe.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
As a taxpayer in the state of North Dakota, I find it deplorable that the governing body is using valuable time, energy, and resources on this piffle.
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NorthernBison
People can get all irate that SR Tribal Council refused to let the members vote. Fine. But, it's almost more obscene for us outsiders to dictate to the Council how to run their Reservation. We have zero business telling them they have to do anything.
At SR, they also elected a new Tribal Chair since the settlement and even he has refused to do anything more than reiterate their opposition to the nickname. An opposition that is backed by a resolution voted on by the Council many moons ago.
^^^This^^^
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Re: Bill to keep Sioux nickname
The bill introduced by Carlson gets around by this problem by saying that the tribes don't have any say whatsoever in the nickname.