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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
IndyBison
The moves being made by the P5 schools are to keep more of the money they are generating now. If this continues, they will not be sharing that money.
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But they’ll share it for a payday game against the cupcake of their choice, just to pad a W and stretch their legs. Sorry but that seems broken to me. If the goal is to support small schools, they should find another avenue
D1 gets bigger every year. Maybe this isn’t a good idea, since all the money seems to be coming from the top and they want to keep more and more of it. Which brings me back to my original point – maybe some of these schools shouldn’t be D1? Sounds harsh I know, but from a resources perspective it is obvious. You have a microcosm of that now in the Dakotas, with Augie knocking on the door ...
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
WhoRepsTheLurker
But they’ll share it for a payday game against the cupcake of their choice, just to pad a W and stretch their legs. Sorry but that seems broken to me. If the goal is to support small schools, they should find another avenue
D1 gets bigger every year. Maybe this isn’t a good idea, since all the money seems to be coming from the top and they want to keep more and more of it. Which brings me back to my original point – maybe some of these schools shouldn’t be D1? Sounds harsh I know, but from a resources perspective it is obvious. You have a microcosm of that now in the Dakotas, with Augie knocking on the door ...
They are bringing the basketball model to football. Allow as many fan bases to feel like they participate, utilize all of that interest to generate tv revenue, then rake all the money off the top to the major conferences.
A full split has always been untenable because it would break them from all the G5 fan bases who have convinced themselves that they are D1. Don’t have to look far to see how successful minor league baseball, arena football and the G league have been to see how much of a dead end that one is. Been saying it for 15 years now.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
NDSU92
They are bringing the basketball model to football. Allow as many fan bases to feel like they participate, utilize all of that interest to generate tv revenue, then rake all the money off the top to the major conferences.
A full split has always been untenable because it would break them from all the G5 fan bases who have convinced themselves that they are D1. Don’t have to look far to see how successful minor league baseball, arena football and the G league have been to see how much of a dead end that one is. Been saying it for 15 years now.
The new NCAA P4 subdivision sure feels like a full split to me, at least for football. But I guess we will learn more over the coming months as they hash out all the details. I will be surprised if they allow G5 teams to play in the CFP under this new divisional structure.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
BigHorns
The new NCAA P4 subdivision sure feels like a full split to me, at least for football. But I guess we will learn more over the coming months as they hash out all the details. I will be surprised if they allow G5 teams to play in the CFP under this new divisional structure.
Seems like the ACC will have to get through a possible lawsuit before too much can happen. If Florida State and Clemson can sue themselves out of a pretty binding Grant of Rights agreement. then you could see a lot of action. I think that will probably take few years.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
MWC
Seems like the ACC will have to get through a possible lawsuit before too much can happen. If Florida State and Clemson can sue themselves out of a pretty binding Grant of Rights agreement. then you could see a lot of action. I think that will probably take few years.
Seems like you are referring to speculation about the ACC getting raided by P2 or falling apart as the top schools attempt to leave.
I'm referring to the recent news that there will be a new "power" D1 subdivision composed of P4 conferences formed. This is very likely to lock out G5, at least to the same degree the D1 split between FBS and FCS did. Whether this extends past Football and includes Basketball or other sports is TBD. But at the very least under D1, will will soon have 3 football subdivisions: P4, G5, FCS. This is a done deal, they are just working out the specific details around it.
https://www.aol.com/sports/future-co...121652533.html
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
BigHorns
Seems like you are referring to speculation about the ACC getting raided by P2 or falling apart as the top schools attempt to leave.
I'm referring to the recent news that there will be a new "power" D1 subdivision composed of P4 conferences formed. This is very likely to lock out G5, at least to the same degree the D1 split between FBS and FCS did. Whether this extends past Football and includes Basketball or other sports is TBD. But at the very least under D1, will will soon have 3 football subdivisions: P4, G5, FCS. This is a done deal, they are just working out the specific details around it.
https://www.aol.com/sports/future-co...121652533.html
My bad. I thought you were talking about the complete breakaway from the NCAA by the top schools. If FSU and Clemson are locked in by the AAC grant of rights they wouldn't be able to join the breakaway until their tv deal expires.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
MWC
My bad. I thought you were talking about the complete breakaway from the NCAA by the top schools. If FSU and Clemson are locked in by the AAC grant of rights they wouldn't be able to join the breakaway until their tv deal expires.
For football purposes, it does feel like a breakaway. The P4 will have complete autonomy to set their own rules, control all the revenues, and operate as though they were an independent organization. Keeping it under the NCAA roof/brand doesn't mean a lot when it is fully independent operationally and financially.
I do agree that a full legal separation by P2 is likely a little bit further down the road. Structurally though they are putting all the pieces in place now so that it won't be difficult if/when they decide to do so. Biggest question in my mind is what happens with basketball and the olympic sports. That would take a bit more effort to untangle and separate.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
BigHorns
For football purposes, it does feel like a breakaway. The P4 will have complete autonomy to set their own rules, control all the revenues, and operate as though they were an independent organization. Keeping it under the NCAA roof/brand doesn't mean a lot when it is fully independent operationally and financially.
I do agree that a full legal separation by P2 is likely a little bit further down the road. Structurally though they are putting all the pieces in place now so that it won't be difficult if/when they decide to do so. Biggest question in my mind is what happens with basketball and the olympic sports. That would take a bit more effort to untangle and separate.
I have never cared that college sports is not egalitarian and fair. P4 conferences not only have much better tv deals they also fill huge stadiums to the brim..It has taken many years to get to this level. There is still some upward mobility but that also takes awhile and a very large investment over many years to get there. G5 and FCS are hardly a death sentences. Even after the potential breakaway occurs the schools not a part of that will still keep plugging along.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
MWC
I have never cared that college sports is not egalitarian and fair. P4 conferences not only have much better tv deals they also fill huge stadiums to the brim..It has taken many years to get to this level. There is still some upward mobility but that also takes awhile and a very large investment over many years to get there. G5 and FCS are hardly a death sentences. Even after the potential breakaway occurs the schools not a part of that will still keep plugging along.
What is this 'breakaway' of which you speak?
https://x.com/dennisdoddcbs/status/1813612962965246227
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
WhoRepsTheLurker
That one..I do think something along those lines will occur..However, I do not see this as a death sentence for FCS or G5 level FBS.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
MWC
That one..I do think something along those lines will occur..However, I do not see this as a death sentence for FCS or G5 level FBS.
Agreed. It will be good for the G5 to have this delineation because of the self acceptance that comes with it, and FCS will become even more solidified as the 3rd level of D1 CFB. It will be good for some of NDSU's fanbase to realize that the P4 aren't going anywhere wrt to the NCAA, since they've been fed this 'split' for a long time
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
This needs to happen and NDSU needs to be in the G5...that's where they belong.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
this move is 1000% necessary but it requires real leadership with real vision.
i'll just leave it at that.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
IMO, NDSU should sue the NCAA for Antitrust reasons. Existing rules purposely reduce competition and help to keep P5 buy game, cfp, and media payouts high. The FBS schools have made it nearly impossible for NDSU, and legit MVFC and Big Sky programs from moving up, because they do not want the competition for TV time slots or Bowl games, either.
Pretty open and shut case, IMO. The rule that schools need an invite from an FBS conference to move up is completely arbitrary and anticompetitive.
Should sue for loss of revenue - locked out of CFP money, bowl rev, ea sports video game publicity etc.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
nodak651
IMO, NDSU should sue the NCAA for Antitrust reasons. Existing rules purposely reduce competition and help to keep P5 buy game, cfp, and media payouts high. The FBS schools have made it nearly impossible for NDSU, and legit MVFC and Big Sky programs from moving up, because they do not want the competition for TV time slots or Bowl games, either.
Pretty open and shut case, IMO. The rule that schools need an invite from an FBS conference to move up is completely arbitrary and anticompetitive.
Should sue for loss of revenue - locked out of CFP money, bowl rev, ea sports video game publicity etc.
If you don't have an invitation from a conference to move up, are you moving up to be an independent? Are you talking about the MVFC or the Big Sky declaring themselves to be a FBS Conference as a whole?
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
MWC
If you don't have an invitation from a conference to move up, are you moving up to be an independent? Are you talking about the MVFC or the Big Sky declaring themselves to be a FBS Conference as a whole?
All or any the above, really, because there isn't an application process for a league to move up. There isn't technically a path to submit an application for FBS independence either, as far as I am aware. I guess my point is that the rules were created specifically as a restraint of trade, and to prevent competition from the FCS class. The conference invite requirement benefits existing FBS conferences who were already in the FBS club. The MVFC is about as competitive as CUSA or the MAC, yet Missouri State had to leave the MVC/MVFC in order to make the move? Is that really reasonable? CUSA was able to pluck a new program from the MVC/MVFC solely because of the rules for FBS transition. The MAC certainly benefits by not having a G5 competitor - they have a tough enough time as it is recruiting against MVFC schools. Literally, the only reason the MVFC and Big Sky aren't allowed to move up is because the G5 don't want the competition when it comes to recruits, and less P5 programs = greater CFP and money game payouts. Simple supply and demand.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
Liberty proved you don't actually need a conference invite to go FBS. NDSU filing a lawsuit is a waste of time and money unless we try the same and are denied. Liberty has the money to be indy, NDSU doesn't. It'd be pants on head insane for us to go indy, no matter how much some people here want FBS at any cost. Conferences are private organizations and there's no court in the nation that'll force them to accept some random applicant.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
nodak651
All or any the above, really, because there isn't an application process for a league to move up. There isn't technically a path to submit an application for FBS independence either, as far as I am aware. I guess my point is that the rules were created specifically as a restraint of trade, and to prevent competition from the FCS class. The conference invite requirement benefits existing FBS conferences who were already in the FBS club. The MVFC is about as competitive as CUSA or the MAC, yet Missouri State had to leave the MVC/MVFC in order to make the move? Is that really reasonable? CUSA was able to pluck a new program from the MVC/MVFC solely because of the rules for FBS transition. The MAC certainly benefits by not having a G5 competitor - they have a tough enough time as it is recruiting against MVFC schools. Literally, the only reason the MVFC and Big Sky aren't allowed to move up is because the G5 don't want the competition when it comes to recruits, and less P5 programs = greater CFP and money game payouts. Simple supply and demand.
There has been a number of FCS schools move up to G5..All but Liberty were invited into existing conferences. I am not seeing that as a restraint of trade action. I don't think the MVFC or the Big Sky want to all move up at the same time.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
taper
Liberty proved you don't actually need a conference invite to go FBS. NDSU filing a lawsuit is a waste of time and money unless we try the same and are denied. Liberty has the money to be indy, NDSU doesn't. It'd be pants on head insane for us to go indy, no matter how much some people here want FBS at any cost. Conferences are private organizations and there's no court in the nation that'll force them to accept some random applicant.
But Liberty had the coffers to get teams to come to play them at home. Plus they threatened the NCAA with discrimination? religious freedom? or something that tied their hands. Plus with the beating they had been taking they didnt need another lawsuit they knew they were going to lose.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
MWC
There has been a number of FCS schools move up to G5..All but Liberty were invited into existing conferences. I am not seeing that as a restraint of trade action. I don't think the MVFC or the Big Sky want to all move up at the same time.
When past conference openings occurred and Liberty applied, they had documented cases of ADs and Conferences directly telling them they would never be admitted due to their religious views. That gave them pretty strong ammo to use. Liberty has deep pockets, but even there the economics of buying games to put together a home schedule didn't work long term. That plus access to the CFP is why they eventually joined a conference.
Basically every FBS school outside Notre Dame is now joining conferences, and the Irish are an ACC affiliate with a very unique status.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
Unless the ACC falls apart soon and there is another upheaval at the P5 level I don't see much room for NDSU to move up. There was a good 5 year window from 2015 to 2020 for NDSU to make the move, then COVID hit. The only post-covid reason to add teams to a G5 conference has been that teams from the conference "moved up" to a P5 conference. Doesn't seem like any G5 conferences are willingly looking to expand, more mouths to feed dilutes the revenue for everyone in the conference and it's not like G5 programs are rolling in the dough. I'm wondering how much say EA has in these decisions now with NCAA being back, yet another thing that would need negotiations.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
Looks like we're right where we belong eh. With the puds. All teh big schools won like they should. Won't taint the playoff eh. Let's go get that pud trophy. Way to go Matt! Found what you're good at.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
NDSU football should never be in the same division where Tarleton St. is ranked in the top 25. Its silly and weird
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/...ip-break-down/
The Sunday deadline for the Pac-12 and Mountain West to extend their football scheduling partnership came and went without a deal.
Don’t expect them to revisit talks at a later date, either.
An agreement for the 2025 season “isn’t happening at all,” according to a source familiar with the discussions. The sides are simply “too far apart.”
Instead, Washington State and Oregon State are exploring other options to complete their 2025 schedules.
However, the source cautioned that the lack of a deal with the Mountain West did not indicate a partnership with the ACC or Big 12 — or any other league, for that matter — was imminent.
Nor does the breakdown in talks rule out the possibility of a longer-term merger, in some form, between the Pac-12 and the Mountain West. Cont. in link
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
WestCoastBison
NDSU football should never be in the same division where Tarleton St. is ranked in the top 25. Its silly and weird
Truth of the matter is Tarleton is booming in Texas (expanding campus and growing enrollment) and investing heavily in athletics. They built a new 24k capacity stadium that looks easily expandable to 35k or more. This year will be the first time they are eligible for FCS playoffs due to transition.
I think they will become a regular part of FCS playoffs. They also would have likely been invited to join CUSA had they not been transitioning. Rumor was the NCAA ruling that they could not skip FCS transition is what kept them out. They've been on CUSA shortlist, and are likely to get invited should CUSA decide to expand or backfill. It would be a good geographic fit.
Our best option/hope is still whatever comes out of the PAC/MWC reshuffle, or potentially the MAC.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
BigHorns
Truth of the matter is Tarleton is booming in Texas (expanding campus and growing enrollment) and investing heavily in athletics. They built a new 24k capacity stadium that looks easily expandable to 35k or more. This year will be the first time they are eligible for FCS playoffs due to transition.
I think they will become a regular part of FCS playoffs. They also would have likely been invited to join CUSA had they not been transitioning. Rumor was the NCAA ruling that they could not skip FCS transition is what kept them out. They've been on CUSA shortlist, and are likely to get invited should CUSA decide to expand or backfill. It would be a good geographic fit.
Our best option/hope is still whatever comes out of the PAC/MWC reshuffle, or potentially the MAC.
Wow, I knew nothing about them. Thanks for educating me. They seem like a Grand Canyon type program than. Its crazy seeing us get leap frogged left and right.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
Tarleton will win a few playoff games and then go FBS...It is the way of the FCS unless you are a school in the Dakotas or Montana.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
WestCoastBison
Wow, I knew nothing about them. Thanks for educating me. They seem like a Grand Canyon type program than. Its crazy seeing us get leap frogged left and right.
Sort of like a GCU of the south in some ways, except they are supercharged by Texas having a football centric culture, growing population demographics, and big Texas A&M system oil money to fund it all.
Their location, demographics and money are likely to accelerate that program a lot faster than average. If FBS continues to exist in its current form (uncertain), I do think they make that jump within 5-7 years, maybe sooner.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
NDSUstudent
Tarleton will win a few playoff games and then go FBS...It is the way of the FCS unless you are a school in the Dakotas or Montana.
Our geography sucks for FBS, no argument there. OTOH, the main U in MN, WI, NE stopping other D1 football programs means we have very fertile recruiting grounds. Double edged sword for sure.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
BigHorns
Sort of like a GCU of the south in some ways, except they are supercharged by Texas having a football centric culture, growing population demographics, and big Texas A&M system oil money to fund it all.
Their location, demographics and money are likely to accelerate that program a lot faster than average. If FBS continues to exist in its current form (uncertain), I do think they make that jump within 5-7 years, maybe sooner.
GCU also was a for-profit school until recently and a private religious school. Tarleton has always been a public school. It may be similar to a MAC school in enrollment and stature. Very good directional bigger mid-size enrollment (15-25k). R2 designation.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
IndyBison
GCU also was a for-profit school until recently and a private religious school. Tarleton has always been a public school. It may be similar to a MAC school in enrollment and stature. Very good directional bigger mid-size enrollment (15-25k). R2 designation.
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Yep, all good points. Where I thought the GCU comparison was fair was the rapid growth and priority on building competitive athletic programs. They potentially have much deeper pockets as part of the Texas A&M system. And GCU has prioritized basketball, which is a much cheaper sport. But has the same feeling in terms of emerging growth dynamic.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
BigHorns
Yep, all good points. Where I thought the GCU comparison was fair was the rapid growth and priority on building competitive athletic programs. They potentially have much deeper pockets as part of the Texas A&M system. And GCU has prioritized basketball, which is a much cheaper sport. But has the same feeling in terms of emerging growth dynamic.
That's fair. We toured GCU twice with my sons. I was amazed that it seemed 90% of the campus was housing and student services (recently, food, mail, shopping, athletics). We only saw 1 academic building. They are in a rough part of Phoenix, so the campus is very secure and self-contained. Most students live on campus all 4 years. You have to go through security gates to get on campus.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IndyBison
That's fair. We toured GCU twice with my sons. I was amazed that it seemed 90% of the campus was housing and student services (recently, food, mail, shopping, athletics). We only saw 1 academic building. They are in a rough part of Phoenix, so the campus is very secure and self-contained. Most students live on campus all 4 years. You have to go through security gates to get on campus.
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Interesting, their basketball success and associated advertising gave me a different impression. I thought GCU was becoming a much bigger school. NCAA tournament has given them a big stage and built up their brand.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
HURRY UP and GO FBS! Lets have games like last saturday EVERY SATURDAY!!
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
WhoRepsTheLurker
G5 coaches poll published
https://x.com/Dan_Lyons76/status/1830653601720803446
This looks an awful lot like the beginning of an official split between P4 and G5 to me.
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
Saw that WSU and OSU had their scheduling alliance with the MW fall thru for 2025. Any chance they’re looking for a mid/late season schedule filler and we can snag them during our MVFC bye week?
At this point I root for chaos as chaos is the only possible path forward to an FBS invite. And because I’m a jaded bitter old man lol
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
NDSU92
Saw that WSU and OSU had their scheduling alliance with the MW fall thru for 2025. Any chance they’re looking for a mid/late season schedule filler and we can snag them during our MVFC bye week?
At this point I root for chaos as chaos is the only possible path forward to an FBS invite. And because I’m a jaded bitter old man lol
WSU and OSU both still need to fill 6 games next year. We should be on that god damn it
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
WestCoastBison
WSU and OSU both still need to fill 6 games next year. We should be on that god damn it
Problem is they both already have an FCS for 2025. If they don't want to associate with the MWC why do you think they'll even take our call?
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Re: A new and better FBS thread
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Originally Posted by
WestCoastBison
WSU and OSU both still need to fill 6 games next year. We should be on that god damn it
Not sure what their schedule looks like, but they won't want more than 1 FCS game to keep their (slim) CFP hopes alive. Also, only one FCS game counts toward bowl eligibility. It's rare for a FBS team to play 2 FCS games and only done as a last resort.
That said, make the call, and hope things fall our way. Maybe they get desperate for games.
