A new and better FBS thread

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Originally Posted by Gully

After reviewing those numbers, I think you're right. Football is doable, no doubt in my mind. It's hard to see how all sports works unless someone is going to write a massive check for fund an endowment.

I do wonder if some of the dollars are a bit higher than would realistically be needed due to Fargo costs vs. others but still.....

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A football only invite is definitely doable not doubt even with the budget cuts. Going FBS for football only will pay for itself in the end. We may need some private money to step up right away but I think we see a big once in revenue from FBS football.

The only question is IF we get an invite!

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Originally Posted by The_Sicatoka

You have a hidden problem: You've created a monster. No, two: the team and the fan base. The fan base has become accustomed to 14-1. Heck, y'all are wailing and gnashing teeth over 12-3 and runner up. As the thread calls it: "Bison Fatigue".

What will the inside of Fargodome look like after three seasons of 7-4 in FBS? OK, even 7-4, 8-3, 7-4? You've set expectations so high that they could end up working against you. Can you raise ticket prices with an FBS move?

Some of you harp on "Stony Brook". I'd guess his desk is covered with scenarios from "blue sky" to "bottom" and he is trying to find a path for his department. Why? His job depends on it. And in the last 24 hours we've all learned the campus environment he's working in (looming cuts).

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I think the inside of the Fargodome looks much like it has the past few seasons. The majority of the fanbase is smart enough to understand that a 14-1 season in FCS and an 8-3 season in FBS both carry about the same amount of prestige/respect in the larger college landscape. If we have an 8-3 season now it would be similar to a 6-6 season in the FBS. 92 is right though that our mindset as fans will need to adjust to not having playoffs.

I know my frustration with the Ath. Dept is the fact that we have to "guess" that they are exploring all scenarios. I understand that not all details are or can be shared but there is absolutely no reason that the messages/language in the most recent article in the Athletic couldn't have been stated at minimum 2-3 years ago. It strikes me as a reactionary stance. It is likely due to the past President not having any interest in FBS. Which in my opinion is a lack of vision just like his stance on online students. Now we seem to be openly discussing the possibility more. Better late than never.

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Originally Posted by B.Schlossman Fan Club

A football only invite is definitely doable not doubt even with the budget cuts.

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To make sure I'm seeing what you're seeing, I see:

- AAC FB budgets $10-15M
- AAC HC about $1.5M
- NDSU FB budget about $6M
- NDSU coaching staff about $2M
- Throw in 22 womens scholarships (to balance the 22 mens FB for FBS)

That looks like a $7-8M increase to me. (The budget shortfall triggering cuts is that number.)

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Originally Posted by B.Schlossman Fan Club

Ok I’ll finally admit it………!

I get a boner to see UND fail and it’s been a banner year!

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It's probably time to see a doctor. Erections over 4 hours can cause serious injury.

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Originally Posted by The_Sicatoka

To make sure I'm seeing what you're seeing, I see:

- AAC FB budgets $10-15M
- AAC HC about $1.5M
- NDSU FB budget about $6M
- NDSU coaching staff about $2M
- Throw in 22 womens scholarships (to balance the 22 mens FB for FBS)

That looks like a $7-8M increase to me. (The budget shortfall triggering cuts is that number.)

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What you're seeing:

https://live.staticflickr.com/8572/2...c0e9c083_b.jpg

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Originally Posted by The_Sicatoka

To make sure I'm seeing what you're seeing, I see:

- AAC FB budgets $10-15M
- AAC HC about $1.5M
- NDSU FB budget about $6M
- NDSU coaching staff about $2M
- Throw in 22 womens scholarships (to balance the 22 mens FB for FBS)

That looks like a $7-8M increase to me. (The budget shortfall triggering cuts is that number.)

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As always, there is a ton of nuance to those budget numbers. For instance some of those budgets apparently include $15M+ in yearly facilities fees. Another example is how the Big Sky schools say NDSU has such a budget and resource advantage yet the budgets appear to be similar according to the same data that you use.

NDSU needs to increase its athletic budget for it to fit in with the AAC but not nearly at the numbers you provide.

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Originally Posted by EC8CH

What you're seeing:

https://live.staticflickr.com/8572/2...c0e9c083_b.jpg

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Man…. That is… just… a TOP NOTCH zing right there.

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Originally Posted by NDSU92

As always, there is a ton of nuance to those budget numbers. For instance some of those budgets apparently include $15M+ in yearly facilities fees. Another example is how the Big Sky schools say NDSU has such a budget and resource advantage yet the budgets appear to be similar according to the same data that you use.

NDSU needs to increase its athletic budget for it to fit in with the AAC but not nearly at the numbers you provide.

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This is what gets missed very often when people talk about the monies. With a football only invite I think money would come down to additional coaches salaries, and 44-50 more scholarships, and a slight increase in travel. Not sure how much that adds. Its not an insignificant number but it's not doubling the budget

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Originally Posted by NDSU92

As always, there is a ton of nuance to those budget numbers. For instance some of those budgets apparently include $15M+ in yearly facilities fees. Another example is how the Big Sky schools say NDSU has such a budget and resource advantage yet the budgets appear to be similar according to the same data that you use.

NDSU needs to increase its athletic budget for it to fit in with the AAC but not nearly at the numbers you provide.

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Yep. There's a reason why Choate at Montana St. and Stig at SDSU bitched a few years ago about NDSU leading the charge on FCOA while already funding their football operations at a higher level than those schools already were. The Fargodome arrangement is really beneficial for NDSU because it allows them to use their funds specifically for things that help player recruitment, development and performance rather than spending a large portion on a stadium. And yet they still have the Fargodome as their football facility to show to recruits and it's on campus. If we owned and operated our own stadium our current football budget would likely be significantly higher and would be in line with the lower levels of G5 already. That or we would need to cut many of the other spending options that separate us from the FCS pack to offset it. As mentioned by Tutters, if a football only option presented itself coaching salaries and additional scholarships are likely the only increases and I would suspect that that would likely require 2-3 million dollars in additional revenue needed. That's not insignificant but it isn't insurmountable. An all sports move is where the bigger funds will be required.

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Originally Posted by BigLakeBison

Yep. There's a reason why Choate at Montana St. and Stig at SDSU bitched a few years ago about NDSU leading the charge on FCOA while already funding their football operations at a higher level than those schools already were. The Fargodome arrangement is really beneficial for NDSU because it allows them to use their funds specifically for things that help player recruitment, development and performance rather than spending a large portion on a stadium. And yet they still have the Fargodome as their football facility to show to recruits and it's on campus. If we owned and operated our own stadium our current football budget would likely be significantly higher and would be in line with the lower levels of G5 already. That or we would need to cut many of the other spending options that separate us from the FCS pack to offset it. As mentioned by Tutters, if a football only option presented itself coaching salaries and additional scholarships are likely the only increases and I would suspect that that would likely require 2-3 million dollars in additional revenue needed. That's not insignificant but it isn't insurmountable. An all sports move is where the bigger funds will be required.

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Yep, I will say though that the budget shortfall is probably a bigger hurdle. Maybe not even from a material standpoint but cutting programs, positions, consolidating colleges and then going on to say that hey we're going to spend more money and take the holy football program FBS would give the Forum fodder for a decade. Especially if we went without UND.

Of course if we were FBS, we'd also have some large increases to revenue to offset most of the increased expenses. And there's the reality that vast majority of our athletic department is self-funded and money spent there is probably the best investment we can make from the marketing, branding and exposure aspects. But we all know the Forum, Gaptooth, DUI Porterhouse, etc. wouldn't let that get in the way of getting in some blows on the NDSU pinata.

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Originally Posted by NDSU92

Yep, I will say though that the budget shortfall is probably a bigger hurdle. Maybe not even from a material standpoint but cutting programs, positions, consolidating colleges and then going on to say that hey we're going to spend more money and take the holy football program FBS would give the Forum fodder for a decade. Especially if we went without UND.

Of course if we were FBS, we'd also have some large increases to revenue to offset most of the increased expenses. And there's the reality that vast majority of our athletic department is self-funded and money spent there is probably the best investment we can make from the marketing, branding and exposure aspects. But we all know the Forum, Gaptooth, DUI Porterhouse, etc. wouldn't let that get in the way of getting in some blows on the NDSU pinata.

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That's a fair expectation but it is also probably something that is fairly quickly forgotten if the money funding the move to FBS comes entirely from private sources or from the students voting to approve an increase to student fees. As long as additional University funds are not involved in the move, than I think any criticism from talking heads would be met with a yawn. Hopefully the changes that Pres. Cook is proposing will also start to show results relatively quickly which would also probably take away some of potential for criticism. It always seems odd to me that Pres. Bresciani didn't want to invest more in online when the brand recognition of the University was likely at an all time high because of the athletic success from the move to D1. Seems like a real lack of vision.

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Originally Posted by BigLakeBison

That's a fair expectation but it is also probably something that is fairly quickly forgotten if the money funding the move to FBS comes entirely from private sources or from the students voting to approve an increase to student fees. As long as additional University funds are not involved in the move, than I think any criticism from talking heads would be met with a yawn. Hopefully the changes that Pres. Cook is proposing will also start to show results relatively quickly which would also probably take away some of potential for criticism. It always seems odd to me that Pres. Bresciani didn't want to invest more in online when the brand recognition of the University was likely at an all time high because of the athletic success from the move to D1. Seems like a real lack of vision.

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When the brand recognition was at an all time high, we had a very good, though limited, set of online programs. Bresciani not only didn't want to invest, he killed it off.

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Originally Posted by GCWaters

When the brand recognition was at an all time high, we had a very good, though limited, set of online programs. Bresciani not only didn't want to invest, he killed it off.

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Even more questionable decision given that.

If NDSU moved to the AAC, how would that affect the WDAY contract and associated revenue, which flows through learfield? I haven't seen this mentioned, but does ESPN3 have exclusive rights to all AAC games, even if they aren't on linear TV? I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, and I don't know how much WDAY is paying Learfield for the rights, but I would think that Learfield would probably consider that a diminishing event. Anyone know how the G5 TV contracts typically address local tv? Do schools in CUSA give up local tv rights for only 800K?

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Originally Posted by nodak651

If NDSU moved to the AAC, how would that affect the WDAY contract and associated revenue, which flows through learfield? I haven't seen this mentioned, but does ESPN3 have exclusive rights to all AAC games, even if they aren't on linear TV? I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, and I don't know how much WDAY is paying Learfield for the rights, but I would think that Learfield would probably consider that a diminishing event. Anyone know how the G5 TV contracts typically address local tv? Do schools in CUSA give up local tv rights for only 800K?

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Long story short, no one here knows with certainty. I think that's part of the debate about FBS and which conference makes sense. The current WDAY contract through Learfield was apparently about 21 million over 10 years so about 2 million per year. If CUSA requires NDSU give up all of that for the $800K that comes from the CUSA deal than that would seem to be very detrimental. In my opinion if both sides (NDSU and Conference) are interested in making something work than there will be negotiations that occur to make it workable on both sides. In the case of CUSA, if they required NDSU to forego all of their current media deal for the existing CUSA media deal with no other compensation than I don't see how that would be workable.

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Originally Posted by nodak651

If NDSU moved to the AAC, how would that affect the WDAY contract and associated revenue, which flows through learfield? I haven't seen this mentioned, but does ESPN3 have exclusive rights to all AAC games, even if they aren't on linear TV? I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, and I don't know how much WDAY is paying Learfield for the rights, but I would think that Learfield would probably consider that a diminishing event. Anyone know how the G5 TV contracts typically address local tv? Do schools in CUSA give up local tv rights for only 800K?

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If NDSU went to aac, their tv deal would jump to around 10m a year. They could just buy local deal out, at a minimum.

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Originally Posted by td577

If NDSU went to aac, their tv deal would jump to around 10m a year. They could just buy local deal out, at a minimum.

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I'm sure they could. Just saying that if costs are being added up for FBS, it should be considered.

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Originally Posted by td577

If NDSU went to aac, their tv deal would jump to around 10m a year. They could just buy local deal out, at a minimum.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

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Based on what? The AAC's media deal is worth $7M annually, to the original members for all sports, through 2032.
New members are only getting $2 million annually and again, that is for all sports. Somehow NDSU is going to get 5x more from just its football rights?

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Originally Posted by EC8CH

What you're seeing:

https://live.staticflickr.com/8572/2...c0e9c083_b.jpg

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Is this symbolic of the part of Bison fans that is most used in their thinking?

As far as Title IX goes if we go FBS, will people please stop saying NDSU will need to add 22 women's scholarships? That simply isn't how it works. Adding 8+FCOA for tennis will be just fine. Coastal added 6 beach volleyball. Georgia Southern added 6 golf. As far as I can tell after some web searching SHSU, JMU, and App St didn't add anything. Stopped looking after those 5.
To our resident UND poster, just because UND has 3 current Title IX lawsuits doesn't mean that's normal. The vast majority of schools figure out compliance before courts get involved. NDSU admin isn't perfect but this is one thing they don't really have problems with.

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Originally Posted by CyPanth

Is this symbolic of the part of Bison fans that is most used in their thinking?

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Nah, it's been UNDs view for a decade.

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Originally Posted by taper

To our resident UND poster, just because UND has 3 current Title IX lawsuits doesn't mean that's normal. The vast majority of schools figure out compliance before courts get involved. NDSU admin isn't perfect but this is one thing they don't really have problems with.

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Or they hire attorneys who specialize in Title IX lawsuits to help guide them through the decision-making process and make sure that any and all lawsuits have no validity and are tossed out. Just like everyone against UND has been.

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Originally Posted by taper

To our resident UND poster, just because UND has 3 current Title IX lawsuits doesn't mean that's normal.

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That is not accurate. All have been dismissed by the courts. UND had it figured out. Others paid lawyers to get it explained to them.

Every Title IX situation is different. Where were they, school X, before adding 22 FB scholarships? Which prong does a school use to comply, for example, as JMU isn't Coastal isn't GSU (YMMV). NDSU has it working under present circumstance. Should changes happen NDSU will have to make it work under those circumstances. Will it be 22? Likely no. Will it be 0? Likely no. But it is a factor in the calculus.

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Originally Posted by abc123

Or they hire attorneys who specialize in Title IX lawsuits to help guide them through the decision-making process and make sure that any and all lawsuits have no validity and are tossed out. Just like everyone against UND has been.

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That might work for you, but I still prefer not creating the conditions that lead to lawsuits being filed in the first place.

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Originally Posted by taper

That might work for you, but I still prefer not creating the conditions that lead to lawsuits being filed in the first place.

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You'd rather a budget deficit leading to program cuts not be resolved. Interesting. Is that you Dean Bresciani?

Title IV? Pfft. Talking abut ANY distinction between so-called "Men's" and so-called "Women's" sports is so frustratingly antiquated in this new and improved genderless age we live in. You dinosaurs need to get your minds right! :sigpalm:

Why are Hitler Youth Board perennial circle jerk topics polluting this thread?

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Originally Posted by taper

That might work for you, but I still prefer not creating the conditions that lead to lawsuits being filed in the first place.

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You can't control what other people do. That's why you hire experts to help protect you. UND made hard choices to get through their budget issues, the exact same as NDSU is currently doing.
If NDSU hasn't brought in Title IX experts to consult as part of their FBS due diligence then they aren't anywhere near as close to making a move as some people seem to think.

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Originally Posted by EC8CH

Why are Hitler Youth Board perennial circle jerk topics polluting this thread?

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Because there’s nothing else to do up in El Forko…

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Originally Posted by The_Sicatoka

You'd rather a budget deficit leading to program cuts not be resolved. Interesting. Is that you Dean Bresciani?

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What does this have to do with FBS and Title IX at all?

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Originally Posted by abc123

You can't control what other people do. That's why you hire experts to help protect you. UND made hard choices to get through their budget issues, the exact same as NDSU is currently doing.
If NDSU hasn't brought in Title IX experts to consult as part of their FBS due diligence then they aren't anywhere near as close to making a move as some people seem to think.

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I'm pretty sure NDSU did/will consult Title IX experts whenever they're needed. Please note again that we don't need to spend unlimited taxpayer money to defend against lawsuits. I very much prefer our method of not going to court in the first place.


Also note that both of you are completely avoiding the main point that we do not need 22 women's scholarships if we go FBS. If you disagree, provide examples from schools that have jumped. I provided 5 that didn't add 22.

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Originally Posted by heffray

Because there’s nothing else to do up in El Forko…

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u can eat at ground round bro

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Originally Posted by Kevin

u can eat at ground round bro

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But you gotta keep your mind occupied while you wait for your chicken tortilla soup to arrive…

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Originally Posted by taper

What does this have to do with FBS and Title IX at all?

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You brought up Title IX lawsuits.
The origin of them was UND fixing its budget issues circa 2016, and doing it in a way that the suits were dismissed by the courts.
You'd rather UND have not fixed its budgets back then?

Those who didn't fix issues in 2016 are being forced to do it now.

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Originally Posted by NDSU92

Yep, I will say though that the budget shortfall is probably a bigger hurdle. Maybe not even from a material standpoint but cutting programs, positions, consolidating colleges and then going on to say that hey we're going to spend more money and take the holy football program FBS would give the Forum fodder for a decade. Especially if we went without UND.

Of course if we were FBS, we'd also have some large increases to revenue to offset most of the increased expenses. And there's the reality that vast majority of our athletic department is self-funded and money spent there is probably the best investment we can make from the marketing, branding and exposure aspects. But we all know the Forum, Gaptooth, DUI Porterhouse, etc. wouldn't let that get in the way of getting in some blows on the NDSU pinata.

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I don’t think we can delay an AAC invite if one came today. Need to take it while it is available. Yes if we are really worried about image we would be better off getting that invite in a year or two. Can the fanbase survive in that time? Yes

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Originally Posted by The_Sicatoka

You brought up Title IX lawsuits.
The origin of them was UND fixing its budget issues circa 2016, and doing it in a way that the suits were dismissed by the courts.
You'd rather UND have not fixed its budgets back then?

Those who didn't fix issues in 2016 are being forced to do it now.

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I brought up the lawsuits because you keep bringing up fake news about NDSU's Title IX problems. They don't exist.
NDSU didn't have significant budget issues in 2016 because we didn't join a conference two time zones away in a desperate attempt to keep a racist nickname.
Your problems aren't our problems. Stop projecting.

At Nevada they sponsor more women's sports than men's..That balances things out pretty well..

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Originally Posted by nodak651

If NDSU moved to the AAC, how would that affect the WDAY contract and associated revenue, which flows through learfield? I haven't seen this mentioned, but does ESPN3 have exclusive rights to all AAC games, even if they aren't on linear TV? I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, and I don't know how much WDAY is paying Learfield for the rights, but I would think that Learfield would probably consider that a diminishing event. Anyone know how the G5 TV contracts typically address local tv? Do schools in CUSA give up local tv rights for only 800K?

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Yes, though the vast majority of games not on linear TV are carried on ESPN+, which is actually preferable to ESPN3. It looks like they are slowly killing off the ESPN3 product, it gets the lower tier games now.

ESPN gets full exclusive rights to all games in their G5 contracts with MAC, SBC and AAC. There is no Learfield type arrangement allowed, and they require all these games to be produced to ESPN standards. Some of the games they choose to sub-license to other networks like NFL Network and CBSSN. They do this quite a bit with the MAC and SBC, and also sometimes the AAC games. Basically, ESPN *IS* Learfield in these agreements and is the primary rights holder who decides on the distribution channels.

We better *hope* there are exit clauses in the Learfield deal, and they don't have to be bought out or get a slice of the revenue, because otherwise we'll be making even less than the rest of the conference we join.

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Originally Posted by B.Schlossman Fan Club

I don’t think we can delay an AAC invite if one came today. Need to take it while it is available. Yes if we are really worried about image we would be better off getting that invite in a year or two. Can the fanbase survive in that time? Yes

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Yeah there’s no way we’d defer, delay anything if the AAC invite came. You accept that every day of the week and twice on sundays.

I think everyone including admin can handle media doing media things, but no president wants to make an enemy of his faculty. And you also have to be careful of the reputation in the academic realm of the athletic department running the school vs the other way around.

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Originally Posted by BigHorns

Yes, though the vast majority of games not on linear TV are carried on ESPN+, which is actually preferable to ESPN3. It looks like they are slowly killing off the ESPN3 product, it gets the lower tier games now.

ESPN gets full exclusive rights to all games in their G5 contracts with MAC, SBC and AAC. There is no Learfield type arrangement allowed, and they require all these games to be produced to ESPN standards. Some of the games they choose to sub-license to other networks like NFL Network and CBSSN. They do this quite a bit with the MAC and SBC, and also sometimes the AAC games. Basically, ESPN *IS* Learfield in these agreements and is the primary rights holder who decides on the distribution channels.

We better *hope* there are exit clauses in the Learfield deal, and they don't have to be bought out or get a slice of the revenue, because otherwise we'll be making even less than the rest of the conference we join.

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If the goal was to critique Larson, this would be an area to explore. Are the existing deals conducive with a move?

And appreciate the balance the AD has to find selling the product currently while creating outs for a possible move.

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Originally Posted by taper

NDSU didn't have significant budget issues in 2016

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There were definitely budget issues at the time with the state mandated cuts. However the administration at the time chose to make small changes and kick the can, hoping the problems would self-correct. Turns out they didn't which is why they are where they are today.