Lawsuit and more idiotic Kupchella statements

[kchats]

Boy everytime Kupchella speaks he makes a guy like and respect him so much more. I'm sure the NCAA is completely impressed by this guy. He is way over the top in many of these statements. I sure hope the state doesn't pay for this idiotic lawsuit. They don't stand a chance so it is just pissing money down the toilet.

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=129321

[NebraskaBISON]

I don't get why they just don't get rid of the logo they copied from the chicago blackhawks and slap the "nd" logo they copied from notre dame on everything. Or even just use a spear or tomahawk as the main logo. Maybe the ncaa would be more likely to let them host something then.

[NanoBison]

Boy, it just keeps getting better and better...
I almost had to smirk when I heard Kupchella call upon the NCAA's arrogance... we've never heard anything from those up North like that before have we .... ?

::)

[TransAmBison]

I've been waiting for some new "material."

[NDSU_grad]

This is the only time you will ever hear me say this, but I think Kupchella is right on with his statements. To me the argument isn't about the nickname but the way the NCAA has decided which schools get to keep their nickname and which ones don't. I think it's good someone is taking the NCAA on, because they have really overstepped their bounds.

[lakesbison]

"""""I don't get why they just don't get rid of the logo they copied from the chicago blackhawks and slap the "nd" logo they copied from notre dame on everything."""""


maybe UND will be copyright sued..

POST OF THE YEAR!!!

Its so true.. it makes me cry laughing.... they got penis envy up there.....

[Paulie]

I agree with the part about Florida State. Just because the Seminole tribe was paid off or whatever wouldn't just the generic character that their mascots represents be an insult to all Indians, not just the Seminoles? I think all the mascots should be allowed or all replaced, but not pick and choose who has the best lawyers or the deepest pockets.

Anyway, nothing that NCAA teams do comes close to comparing to that Cleveland Indians logo or the name Redskins.

[Sticks]

"""""I don't get why they just don't get rid of the logo they copied from the chicago blackhawks and slap the "nd" logo they copied from notre dame on everything."""""


maybe UND will be copyright sued.. *

POST OF THE YEAR!!!

Its so true.. it makes me cry laughing.... * * they got penis envy up there.....

You might be the biggest loser on this board.....clean it up!

[broke_back_mnt]

Isnt that a medical term? If so it should be acceptable. :)

[RedRiver]

Typical Kupchella comment when he mentioned jello at room temperature.

[met1990]

Of the other schools the NCAA has deemed have "offensive nicknames," are any planning to go to court? I haven't followed the issue closely enough to see what others are doing. I can't agree with the NCAA's views 100 percent, but it seems as if UND is heading down a path that could get much worse before it gets any better.

[Sticks]

Isnt that a medical term? *If so it should be acceptable. * :)

Hypocrite

[IowaBison]

I won't post this on the siouxsports.com board where it belongs, because as bison fan they'd try to a tear me, not the substance of my message, apart.

My opinion, is that Kupchella is a pompous ass and a fool to boot.

I understand and agree with the need to write a 'scare letter' to the NCAA threatening litigation. However, the language used is wholely inappropriate and supports my opinion of him. Using the words self-righteous and arrogant, and the jello metaphor, you'd think he was spouting off in a bar somewhere not writing to the primary governing body of intercollegiate athletics.

[broke_back_mnt]

Isnt that a medical term? *If so it should be acceptable. * :)

Hypocrite

Hostile and abusive. Must come from the atmosphere on campus?

[DORMIE]

Maybe sometimes we forget who the NCAA is. Actually it is the Presidents and Athletic Directors of member institutions. I would asume that those individuals making the decisions are doing it under the direction if the members. 32 schools including Stranford changed the name of their mascot without the direction of the NCAA.

[kchats]

Does Kupchella not have somebody read his letters before sending them out? That is one of the first things you learn in business is to have it read by another person in your firm or office to make sure there isn't anything in the letter that will make your firm or the writer look like a fool. A proofreader should have caught all that crap and told him you are probably better off not sending it and just filing the lawsuit. They have no chance to win the lawsuit anyway so why waste the money. What is the NCAA telling them? The NCAA says that UND won't be selected to host any tournament or playoff games as long as they continue to use a mascot and nickname that the NCAA and the Sioux Tribes in North Dakota find hostile and abusive. They also tell UND that they will not be allowed to wear uniforms bearing the nickname or logo in any NCAA sponsored tournament. Nothing says UND can't use the name it just says you won't use it at NCAA sponsored events and your campus and community won't profit by hosting NCAA events because of your nickname. I don't see where they have anything that will win this suit for them.

Florida State is different because the Seminole Tribe actually sent letters to the NCAA in support of their use of the name. That hasn't happened at UND. Illinois has also lost their appeal and their mascot is still considered hostile and abusive. UND's problem in this whole matter is they arrogantly told the tribes that their opinion didn't matter and it was UND's right to use the logo. This has been going on for a long time and they have always completely ignored the Tribal opinion in the matter.

[Bigears]

Does Kupchella not have somebody read his letters before sending them out? *That is one of the first things you learn in business is to have it read by another person in your firm or office to make sure there isn't anything in the letter that will make your firm or the writer look like a fool. *A proofreader should have caught all that crap and told him you are probably better off not sending it and just filing the lawsuit. *They have no chance to win the lawsuit anyway so why waste the money. *What is the NCAA telling them? *The NCAA says that UND won't be selected to host any tournament or playoff games as long as they continue to use a mascot and nickname that the NCAA and the Sioux Tribes in North Dakota find hostile and abusive. *They also tell UND that they will not be allowed to wear uniforms bearing the nickname or logo in any NCAA sponsored tournament. *Nothing says UND can't use the name it just says you won't use it at NCAA sponsored events and your campus and community won't profit by hosting NCAA events because of your nickname. *I don't see where they have anything that will win this suit for them.

Florida State is different because the Seminole Tribe actually sent letters to the NCAA in support of their use of the name. *That hasn't happened at UND. *Illinois has also lost their appeal and their mascot is still considered hostile and abusive. *UND's problem in this whole matter is they arrogantly told the tribes that their opinion didn't matter and it was UND's right to use the logo. *This has been going on for a long time and they have always completely ignored the Tribal opinion in the matter.

It seems to me that the intended audience of that crude and sophomoric letter is not the NCAA. I think the letter is really intended to pacify the militant Ralph Engelstad clones out there in Sioux-Land. UND already knows it can't win a lawsuit and is trying to find a way out of this mess without angering too many of its supporters and donors. I expect UND to quietly back away from a lawsuit soon. They may keep the name and accept the sanctions for awhile, but ultimately dollars and cents will force them to abandon the Sioux name. It's a pity that UND didn't do the right thing years ago before things got to this point. At this point there simply are no good options left.

[broke_back_mnt]

Just saw kup on Fox. Not impressive.

[sambini]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[kchats]

Who hires the president of a university? Seems to me that when a president runs around and makes statements and write letters that make the university look bad they should either severely reprimand him or fire him. Kupchella is like a loose cannon and he can't control what he writes or says he should be fired.

[IowaBison]

Hell, most of the folks at siouxsports.com think their president is the second coming of Thomas Paine.

[DORMIE]

I think that the NCAA gave the OK to 3 schools, the Seminoles, Chippewas and the Utes. Said no the the Fighting Illini and the Fighting Sioux. When I was in school in the 60's. they were The Sioux. I realize that in the fight song is says We are the fighting Sioux from NDU, but when did they add the fighting to the mascot. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they should do.

[IowaBisonToo]

I think that the NCAA gave the OK to 3 schools, the Seminoles, Chippewas and the Utes. *Said no the the Fighting Illini and the Fighting Sioux. *When I was in school in the 60's. they were The Sioux. *I realize that in the fight song is says We are the fighting Sioux from NDU, but when did they add the fighting to the mascot. *Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they should do.
Yeah, I wonder if the NCAA would have had a different view had the names been the "Fighting Seminoles" or "Fighting Utes?"

[broke_back_mnt]

Hell, most of the folks at siouxsports.com think their president is the second coming of Thomas Paine.

His adolescent diatribe appeals to those type of thinkers!

[Flanders]

This is the only time you will ever hear me say this, but I think Kupchella is right on with his statements. To me the argument isn't about the nickname but the way the NCAA has decided which schools get to keep their nickname and which ones don't. I think it's good someone is taking the NCAA on, because they have really overstepped their bounds.

Easily the most intelligent post concerning this topic. The amount of made up information on this thread alone is scary. Especially the posts concerning the logo being the Chicago Blackhawk logo. No, it isn't. It's an original logo painted by a respected Native American, Ben Brien. He was commissioned by UND. But that hasn't stopped some of you with running with the original lie.

Sure Kupchella uses a couple of strange references. But if you get right down to his message, he's right. And to the person (I believe it was kchats) that said Kupchella was doing this on his own. Are you kidding? Do you know anything about lawsuits and the groundwork that needs to be put in place before one is filed? Kupchella met with the North Dakota Attorney General before sending this letter to the NCAA. All of the appeals and all of his letters will be submitted in a potential lawsuit. He's making a public record that will be very easily admissable in court.

[NanoBison]

I still believe his letter lacks class and seemed hastily written. UND and it's followers don't seem to grasp the notion that the "Sioux" name is not really theirs and it's not their decision to see how it's used. It's the namesake of the Sioux tribes. They have every right in the world, to make sure it is used and represented in a respectible and non-hostile manner, as was indicated by the NCAA. No matter how many idiotic UND fans and supporters think otherwise. I've been reading the posts on SS.com and the comments are quite arrogant and it just seems so ironic to hear many "Sioux" supporters blast the tribes and their rights as a governing body. But I'm not going to get into that arguement again. It leads nowhere but the inevitable fact that UND should drop the name/logo and get something else and move on.

[Mr._Bill]

I thought that the arguments made by president K sounded strangely rational and were made with conviction. (That is the first complement had I have ever paid him by the way). I guess I have a thing for passionate speaches, a quality I did not assocaiate with him previously. I am torn however about whether is getting his school in hot water with NCAA. I'm quite sure that organization doesn't get mad, it gets even.

Just think if he used that same passion on a D1 move. I think the fans are ready to embrace it, a president leading the way could be a hero.

Trivia: I am one of the proud people who has worn both a Bison and Sioux sports jersy in my day. Blamphamy you say, I only attend NDSU. Hint, the sioux jersy wasn't green.

[broke_back_mnt]

His letter misrepresents the Tribes position. * They have not voted to support the use of the name. *He is aware of this and is trying to divide the community. *This in itself is contrary to honoring them.

His attempt to expand the ban to situations lying outside of the NCAAs authority and to piggyback on issues that are unrelated is deceptive. *Other than the Und people the anti fighting Irish constituency has no members. *It is not an issue, its finger pointing to divert attention from the real issue.

His insinuation that this is a nickname ban is all together wrong. *It is a ban on its use and image for NCAA sponsored championship events. *This is a lot different than banning the use of the name. *They can use the image all they want, just not as a sponsor or participant in an NCAA championship event. *They are voluntary, dues paying members of the NCAA. *

Finding meaningless inconsistencies and emotionally charging them within the context of this letter will not be effective. *The restriction is not on the past but on the future use of the image. *It doesn’t extend beyond the NCAAs right to control its own championship events.

This is about the NCAAs right to control its own championship sponsored events. *It is not a cultural precedent. *It will have no affect on any issue other than what the NCAA is allowed to do when governing its own championship events for its own members. *If he is unsuccessful in his attempts to divert focus from what this is really about I don’t see this issue going anyplace.

They have had years to clean this up. *In that time they have been unable to forge a functional releationship with the Tribes. *This is a failure of leadership. *If they must use the name in championship events I would suggest pulling back from the lawsuit talk and all the hyperoblae and work out something with the Tribes. *When this is done apply for the right to use the name at championship events.


*

[Sticks]

I still believe his letter lacks class and seemed hastily written. UND and it's followers don't seem to grasp the notion that the "Sioux" name is not really theirs and it's not their decision to see how it's used. It's the namesake of the Sioux tribes. They have every right in the world, to make sure it is used and represented in a respectible and non-hostile manner, as was indicated by the NCAA. No matter how many idiotic UND fans and supporters think otherwise. I've been reading the posts on SS.com and the comments are quite arrogant and it just seems so ironic to hear many "Sioux" supporters blast the tribes and their rights as a governing body. But I'm not going to get into that arguement again. It leads nowhere but the inevitable fact that UND should drop the name/logo and get something else and move on.
How are these comments arrogant? *I think they just seem that way to a biased, opinionated, non-Sioux supporting individual like yourself. *All these people want is for the University to keep the name & the tradition that they had when they were going to school there. *I don't really think that it's too much to ask considering that the hostile and abusive CRAP is just that.....CRAP. *The students and fans of UND have been nothing but respectful of the name they get to carry. *The University has bent over BACKWARDS to make this work with the Sioux tribe from doing everything like all the scholarships they offer the Native Americans to letting a Native American DRAW up the logo so there's no HOSTILE or ABUSIVE content. *

Kups just frusterated like the rest of GF....what choice does he really have now other than writing a letter like that and start suing some asses?

[Bison_Dan]

I still believe his letter lacks class and seemed hastily written. UND and it's followers don't seem to grasp the notion that the "Sioux" name is not really theirs and it's not their decision to see how it's used. It's the namesake of the Sioux tribes. They have every right in the world, to make sure it is used and represented in a respectible and non-hostile manner, as was indicated by the NCAA. No matter how many idiotic UND fans and supporters think otherwise. I've been reading the posts on SS.com and the comments are quite arrogant and it just seems so ironic to hear many "Sioux" supporters blast the tribes and their rights as a governing body. But I'm not going to get into that arguement again. It leads nowhere but the inevitable fact that UND should drop the name/logo and get something else and move on.
How are these comments arrogant? *I think they just seem that way to a biased, opinionated, non-Sioux supporting individual like yourself. *All these people want is for the University to keep the name & the tradition that they had when they were going to school there. *I don't really think that it's too much to ask considering that the hostile and abusive CRAP is just that.....CRAP. *The students and fans of UND have been nothing but respectful of the name they get to carry. *The University has bent over BACKWARDS to make this work with the Sioux tribe from doing everything like all the scholarships they offer the Native Americans to letting a Native American DRAW up the logo so there's no HOSTILE or ABUSIVE content. *

Kups just frusterated like the rest of GF....what choice does he really have now other than writing a letter like that and start suing some asses?


Sue away - just make sure it's und's money not the states. * *;)

[IowaBison]

The students and fans of UND have been nothing but respectful of the name they get to carry.


that's crap



The University has bent over BACKWARDS to make this work with the Sioux tribe from doing everything like all the scholarships they offer the Native Americans to letting a Native American DRAW up the logo so there's no HOSTILE or ABUSIVE content.



More crap

You need to avoid absolutes.

[BisonMav]

[to letting a Native American DRAW up the logo

Why didn't they have a Sioux draw the logo?

[Sticks]

*More crap
You need to avoid absolutes.
Rather than calling me a liar and leaving it at that, why don't you give me some examples of hostile and abusive behavior that the fans & students of UND have demonstrated toward the Sioux tribe (other than wrestle over the nickname with them). *Also, please point out what more we could do to cater to the members of the Sioux tribe...cause according to you, free tuition, free room and board, and a bazillion Native American courses offered by the University is not enough for you.

Put some content in your response if you're going to challenge the integrity of another's post. *Don't just call it crap and leave it at that.

[broke_back_mnt]

Kup said they were going to have to fight the people that were against the nicknames use. *That means the tribe. *Come on Kator. *

As far as what more you could do? *Why dont you find leaders that can build functional relationships with the Tribes instead of preaching that you have, without anybodys input, done enough? *Your university doesnt have the Tribes behind it. *

[NanoBison]

More crap
You need to avoid absolutes.
Rather than calling me a liar and leaving it at that, why don't you give me some examples of hostile and abusive behavior that the fans & students of UND have demonstrated toward the Sioux tribe (other than wrestle over the nickname with them).

Do you really need more proof than that? It's the tribes name, not the University's. The tribes have the final say, not the University.


Also, please point out what more we could do to cater to the members of the Sioux tribe...cause according to you, free tuition, free room and board, and a bazillion Native American courses offered by the University is not enough for you.

Put some content in your response if you're going to challenge the integrity of another's post. Don't just call it crap and leave it at that.

You make it sound like supporting the Sioux is a burden... We have to offer this and that... Do you think you can buy the tribes support by offering enough incentives for their people to attend your school?

This is the thinking and the way many fans and most user comments on SS.com come off as....

Here are some examples :

Post entitled : Why do we want to honor the Sioux nation?
Sioux-cia : Our right is to use any name and logo we choose.
Sioux-cia : If and when we change the name, it won't be because some small minded, egotistical, self important, self serving, self rightious, reverse discriminatory group demands and dictates that we do or suffer the consequences. (How considerate....)
NDviaEP : but why do we feel like we are in such debt to Native Americans

It's that same vindictive attitude that is going to keep UND in the tough spot it's in with the Tribes and the NCAA. Until they can view the honor behind the name as a priviledge to represent and not simply a burden measured in financial supports of Native American programs, nothing is going to change.

Sometimes I get simply sick of reading the garbage that spews on that topic from SS.com >:(

It's funny how nowhere in your posts does the word "relationship", "cooperation", "admiration", or "respect" come up when talking about the Sioux.

[roadwarrior]

Why cant we just let them fight their own fight over the nickname? No sense in possibly making more idiotic statements than the ones that started this thread.

[Sticks]

It's not like UND JUST RECENTLY decided to use the "Sioux" name....how long have we had this nickname? *If it was such a problem, how did we get it in the first place? *Did we tell them to piss off, we're gonna use it anyways? *I don't think so. *There obviously was an agreement reached.

The reason these fans are getting pissy is because the Tribe keeps renegging on whatever deal that was set up with them. *We set a deal to use the name (which should be an honor to the people of the Sioux Tribe BTW), everything's honky-dory for a while....then they decide they don't like it. *Then we fix it again (by the scholarships and whatnot) everything's peaches. *Then they decide they don't like it again....do you see where this is getting a little old? *It would be different if they had renegged in the first few years of the agreement....now there's storied history behind it, more at stake with fans, alumni, & financial supporters--people are gonna lose their minds if the name gets changed. *How would NDSU react if you had to change the name/mascot? *Ask yourself that honestly....(I know you wouldn't mind changing that disgusting green and gold! * :D)

Call it what you want as far as "buying" them off, or compensating them for use of the name. *Whatever it was, it was agreed upon by both parties at some point...naturally people of GF are going to be upset when they keep changing their minds. *I would think that they would be honored to have a University named after them. *

[IowaBisonToo]

Katohtr - first off let me say I could care less what UND has as a mascot/logo. *That being said, in today's PC world, like it or not, the name will someday get changed. *According to your last post, the tribes are the ones renegging on what they've said in the past. *So, why doesn't UND kill two birds with one stone. *First, change the name before years and many dollars are spent in litigation. *Second, show those tribes and take away all that UND has done for them.

It is true what Nano said about how many of the fans think they are entitled to use the "Sioux" name. *After all, it is an entitlement world we live in now, wouldn't you agree?

In terms of the name being used for years and years, let me ask you this. *Had some school in the south had the mascot/logo of "Fighting Cotton-Pickers" with a "tastefully" done mascot of an African-American back in the late 1800s / early 1900s, do you think anybody would have thought twice about it? *Probably not. *It wasn't until the 1950s when equal rights started coming to the forefront. *That's when a school with that type of name would have had to change it. *Now, I'm not going to argue whether or not UND is honoring the tribes because I'm not Native American nor will I ever be able to know what it's like to be part of a minority group - at least not yet. *I'm just some white guy from MN. *And no, the term Vikings doesn't offend me nor does the term Fighting Irish offend my brother-in-law who is 100%. *That's just being stupid when people say that. :-[ *Come on and grow up! *They don't even compare. *However, I do think that only within the last 10 years or so has the issue of Native American names and racism has come to the forefront (remember, I'm not arguing whether or not this has actually happened at UND or anyplace else, just trying to get some of the Sioux fans to see it from another point of view). *This, to me, really is no differnent than what might have happened in the '50s when it could just has easily been an African-American issue. *There is no difference, IMHO.

Again, refering to Nano's post, why haven't the fans and ESPECIALLY the President of the University tried to work (some more in this case, I guess) WITH the tribes and not AGAINST them? :-? *Who's to say they wouldn't be fine with just taking out the word "Fighting" from the name? *Has anybody even asked them that??? *I think that's why FSU and Utah got to keep their names - at least just part of the reason. *This is probably also the same reason why Illinois has to change theirs (at the present time) - because they have the word "Fighting" in front of Illini. *I guess it's just my $0.02 but it seems that most UND fans never look at it from this perspective and could care less what the tribes think. *It's more of a "Screw them! *We've had this name for 70-some years and we're not going to change it now!" attitude. *No, I wouldn't like it if NDSU or my other alma mater, SCSU, were trying to be forced to change their names. *But then again, I don't think Fido has a problem with SCS's name. *::)

[broke_back_mnt]

The issue inside the NCAA evolved just like it did outside the NCAA. *High Schools didnt change their name because of the NCAA. *The issue gained strength as the offended gained more voice and political power.

The problem Und and its folks are having is not getting their way. *It should be up to the Tribes not Und on the propriety of its use. *Insisting its your perogative and then adding youve done enough and they dont cooperate with you, is whats hostile and abusive not only to the tribes, but to the NCAA and its abiding members. *

Your wasting our money because you insist on having your way!

[WYOBISONMAN]

Why cant we just let them fight their own fight over the nickname? *No sense in possibly making more idiotic statements than the ones that started this thread.

Agreed........... :P

[Sticks]

Here's the only thing I don't agree with guys...most of the NDSU world has been portraying UND and it's supporters as arrogant, temper tantrum throwing babies. *I'm sure that there have been posts both here and at SS.com that come from that type of Sioux supporter, but we don't all think and act that way. *The reason we feel it is entitled to us is because of the length of time that it has been that way. *You'd like to think that if you stay within the rules of using something like this, the other party would hold up their end of the agreement....which we feel we have...and until it is PROVED other wise....

I agree with you on the fact that it IS UP TO THE TRIBE on whether or not they're gonna be offended by the use of their name. *I would just like to know why it is offensive to them NOW. *After all these years of using that name, only in the past decade has there been any objection. *You guys keep using the phrase hostile and abusive in regards to how we carry the name, but believe it or not, there is also alot of respect. *Sioux fans do understand where the name comes from and respect the heritage. *It's funny though how that stuff never gets pointed out in the media and brought to everyone's attention.... *

[MRBISON]

"I know you wouldn't mind changing that disgusting green and gold! ) "


Yeah...and the colors of PINK and Green are so awesome! ::)

[Sioux1]

The issue inside the NCAA evolved just like it did outside the NCAA. *High Schools didnt change their name because of the NCAA. *The issue gained strength as the offended gained more voice and political power.

The problem Und and its folks are having is not getting their way. *It should be up to the Tribes not Und on the propriety of its use. *Insisting its your perogative and then adding youve done enough and they dont cooperate with you, is whats hostile and abusive not only to the tribes, but to the NCAA and its abiding members. *

Your wasting our money because you insist on having your way!

I think there seems to be some question as to whether or not the tribes support or oppose the Nickname as referenced in this article.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14443237.htm

It may be that the minority are trying to dictate to the majority as stated by Mr. Foolbear's claim that 6 of 8 districts "overwhelmingly support" the nickname

The current resolution by the Spirit Lake Tribe actually states that they will continue to Not oppose the nickname as long as something good comes from it. The NCAA requested an updated proposal from the tribe when deciding on UND's appeal but the refused to address the issue. So you can take that how you want to I guess.

Hope this doesn't turn into a flame fest...just want to point out that there is support from the Native Americans on keeping the nickname as well.

[BisonMav]

It may be that the minority are trying to dictate to the majority as stated by Mr. Foolbear's claim that 6 of 8 districts "overwhelmingly support" the nickname

The current resolution by the Spirit Lake Tribe actually states that they will continue to Not oppose the nickname as long as something good comes from it. *The NCAA requested an updated proposal from the tribe when deciding on UND's appeal but the refused to address the issue. *So you can take that how you want to I guess.

The way you describe it, sounds like the Spirit Lake Tribe is holding UND hostage.

[Bisonguy]

The issue inside the NCAA evolved just like it did outside the NCAA. *High Schools didnt change their name because of the NCAA. *The issue gained strength as the offended gained more voice and political power.

The problem Und and its folks are having is not getting their way. *It should be up to the Tribes not Und on the propriety of its use. *Insisting its your perogative and then adding youve done enough and they dont cooperate with you, is whats hostile and abusive not only to the tribes, but to the NCAA and its abiding members. *

Your wasting our money because you insist on having your way!

I think there seems to be some question as to whether or not the tribes support or oppose the Nickname as referenced in this article.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14443237.htm

It may be that the minority are trying to dictate to the majority as stated by Mr. Foolbear's claim that 6 of 8 districts "overwhelmingly support" the nickname

The current resolution by the Spirit Lake Tribe actually states that they will continue to Not oppose the nickname as long as something good comes from it. *The NCAA requested an updated proposal from the tribe when deciding on UND's appeal but the refused to address the issue. *So you can take that how you want to I guess. *

Hope this doesn't turn into a flame fest...just want to point out that there is support from the Native Americans on keeping the nickname as well.

You must not have read the follow-up story the next day in the Herald- http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14447457.htm


But Jesse Taken Alive, a tribal council member, said the votes cited by Fool Bear weren't formal and they weren't even about the nickname.

It sounds like "overwhelmingly" may have been only in one man's eyes.


Yes, there is support from some in the tribes, and yes, there is opposition from some in the tribes.

[kchats]

Here is a very good well thought out letter by a Tribal Leader from the State of North Dakota. I think he states his case and the rest of the tribes cases against the use of the logo very well.

http://www.in-forum.com/ap/index.cfm?page=view&id=D8I8AL500

He also points out why they were unable to oppose the use of the logo and nickname when UND first decided to use it. I think he makes great and very valid points and I believe the tribes have spoken.

University programs that benefit American Indians do not justify using the name and logo, said Gipp, who believes they create a hostile and abusive environment at UND for Indian students.

"The documented atmosphere for American Indian students at UND, especially those who oppose the logo and nickname, is anything but friendly," his letter says.

A number of Indian tribes and organizations want the University of North Dakota to drop its nickname and logo, and their desires should be respected, Gipp said.

A resolution from the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe, which says it does not oppose the nickname and logo if they are used respectfully, should be regarded skeptically, Gipp's letter says.

The tribe has not responded to questions about whether its members believe the current use is respectful, Gipp said, nor has it approved a resolution giving outright support to the logo and nickname.

"The present UND logo and nickname were selected at a time when the Indian people of this region had virtually no power, and no effective way to oppose the selection of the nickname, or to challenge whether they wanted to be known through a caricature on a football or hockey jersey," the letter says. "Now that the tribes of this region have spoken against the logo and nickname, there are still some who think that it doesn't matter what the tribal governments say about this issue."

[tony]

Meh. UND will be in the wrong until they give the Sioux tribes final say in UND's use of their name. Everything else from both sides is a distratction from that central issue, including the involvement of the NCAA - btw, what the heck were they thinking?

However, I do have a most excellent quote from President Charles Kupchella from the 4/27 USA Today:

"I would not accept a donation from a donor who would make a condition."

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[BisonMav]

Meh. UND will be in the wrong until they give the Sioux tribes final say in UND's use of their name. Everything else from both sides is a distratction from that central issue, including the involvement of the NCAA - btw, what the heck were they thinking?

However, I do have a most excellent quote from President Charles Kupchella from the 4/27 USA Today:

"I would not accept a donation from a donor who would make a condition."

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Unless of course the Board of Education agreed with the condition ;)

[broke_back_mnt]

Wow! I guess he is technically correct since he wasnt the one that accepted the conditional donation from RE, but really?

That type of duplicity is just a further caution to any type of association with them. Yes it might even be a big game, but its not worth it since all BISON games are big.

[Sioux1]

I guess the Board of Higher Ed has decided what they are going to do.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/14826167.htm

[insane_ponderer]

Hey, good for them...they can do whatever the hell they want as long as its privately funded.

[sambini]

THEY CAN HAVE A GRINDER SALE AT THE RED PEPPER+++++++++++

[Bison_Dan]

I guess the Board of Higher Ed has decided what they are going to do.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/14826167.htm

Great news. *- This should suck up some discretionary sioux money. *And if they lose, *what's the cost of a change??

[BismarckBison]

What a waste of time and money.

The world is changing! The name is offensive. Thirty-two other school saw the writing on the wall and changed names. Change the name, get over it, move on!

[insane_ponderer]

They are big on their law school, and now with this whole fiasco...how about "The litigators" ?

[BismarckBison]

What a waste of time and money.

The world is changing! The name is offensive. Thirty-two other school saw the writing on the wall and changed names. Change the name, get over it, move on!


And
for the record, if in the future the Bison have to change names, I will not care. A rose (or football team) by any other name is still .......

The quality of the product the Bison atheletic department places on the field will be the same under a different name.

[IowaBisonToo]

To be honest with you, it wouldn't surprise me if UND actually won this case. Depending on whether or not Kup was actually telling it like it is in his "well thought out" letter, they may have a leg to stand on. Oh I would hate to see how large their heads swell if they were to win. :P

[Sticks]

What a waste of time and money.

The world is changing! The name is offensive. Thirty-two other school saw the writing on the wall and changed names. Change the name, get over it, move on!


And
for the record, if in the future the Bison have to change names, I will not care. A rose (or football team) by any other name is still .......

The quality of the product the Bison atheletic department places on the field will be the same under a different name.
Easy for you to say from the peanut gallery, there's obviously no danger in sight for you unless Bison learn how to talk or vegetarians lose their minds. * :o :o

It has occurred to me that for sure you didn't play any athletics at SU. *If you had poured your heart out into a sport for 4-5 years, called yourself a Sioux/Bison/Gator/WTF, you'd have a little more to say if they were gonna take that tradition from you. *Sure they can't take the memories I had from school, but it would be sad to think that the tradition won't can't be carried on.

[Sticks]

To be honest with you, it wouldn't surprise me if UND actually won this case. *Depending on whether or not Kup was actually telling it like it is in his "well thought out" letter, they may have a leg to stand on. *Oh I would hate to see how large their heads swell if they were to win. :P
I would set up a tent and live on this site 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week IBT....you'd be one of the first to know!! *
:D :D :D :D :D :D

[IowaBison]

To be honest with you, it wouldn't surprise me if UND actually won this case. Depending on whether or not Kup was actually telling it like it is in his "well thought out" letter, they may have a leg to stand on. Oh I would hate to see how large their heads swell if they were to win. :P

I'd be stunned.

So the NCAA had a flawed process. So what? They are a private organization.

I don't know what court has authority over cases where organizations get the shaft.

[Bigears]

To be honest with you, it wouldn't surprise me if UND actually won this case. *Depending on whether or not Kup was actually telling it like it is in his "well thought out" letter, they may have a leg to stand on. *Oh I would hate to see how large their heads swell if they were to win. :P
I would set up a tent and live on this site 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week IBT....you'd be one of the first to know!! *
:D :D :D :D :D :D

Let's say UND does win the lawsuit. Then what happens? Does the issue just go away, or does UND find itself faced with yet another round of protests, sanctions, etc. etc., and then another, and another. What a senseless waste of time and money.

UND will end up changing the nickname, the sooner you accept that, the better off you'll be.

[tcbison]

Anyone know if the "Fighting Illini" from Illinois are going to sue the NCAA as well? Aren't they in the same situation the Fighting Sioux are in?

[MRBISON]

"It has occurred to me that for sure you didn't play any athletics at SU. If you had poured your heart out into a sport for 4-5 years, called yourself a Sioux/Bison/Gator/WTF, you'd have a little more to say if they were gonna take that tradition from you. Sure they can't take the memories I had from school, but it would be sad to think that the tradition won't can't be carried on."

I see your point about the tradition and what it means to you and other UND alum.....and obviously I can't speak for every NDSU alum, but the pride I have comes from being an NDSU alum..not a Bison alum.....not saying I would be happy if they changed their name but when it boils down, NDSU is a representation of the State of North Dakota...something that I think is more important to NDSU alum than UND alum.....

this is not smack or a put down toward UND by any means..just an opinion...and maybe another way to look at this topic

[mikelsch]

Putting everything else aside...I'm happy that someone is challenging the NCAA on their rulings regarding Native American mascots. Will be interesting to see how it turns out, as it will affect all the involved schools. Also good to see that taxpayer dollars aren't being wasted on this effort.

[Sioux1]

Anyone know if the "Fighting Illini" from Illinois are going to sue the NCAA as well? Aren't they in the same situation the Fighting Sioux are in?


I'm not sure where they are at now...but they were talking about having congress interevene.



http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/il15_johnson/Johnson_Chief_5_4_06.html

[Sioux1]

Putting everything else aside...I'm happy that someone is challenging the NCAA on their rulings regarding Native American mascots. *Will be interesting to see how it turns out, as it will affect all the involved schools. *Also good to see that taxpayer dollars aren't being wasted on this effort. *


I agree...The NCAA does not need to be the catalyst for social change. They are a Sports organization and should stick with doing what they are supposed to be doing. BTW it's interesting to see how a few other schools are viewing our situation.

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=stands&Number=4276133& page=&view=&sb=&o=

http://tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30679&highlight=North+Dakota

There are some more but I think you get the point.

[kchats]

Meh. UND will be in the wrong until they give the Sioux tribes final say in UND's use of their name. Everything else from both sides is a distratction from that central issue, including the involvement of the NCAA - btw, what the heck were they thinking?

However, I do have a most excellent quote from President Charles Kupchella from the 4/27 USA Today:

"I would not accept a donation from a donor who would make a condition."

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Unless of course the Board of Education agreed with the condition *;)

It is obvious that the Board favors UND in the State of North Dakota. On the same day they vote 8-0 to allow UND to piss money down the drain suing the NCAA they come out asking President Chapman to step down because he doesn't follow their wishes and does what is right for NDSU. Seems to me the board isn't too bright if they think Kupchella is a better president than Chapman. One only needs to look at where each school is to see which president is doing a better job.

[kchats]

Putting everything else aside...I'm happy that someone is challenging the NCAA on their rulings regarding Native American mascots. *Will be interesting to see how it turns out, as it will affect all the involved schools. *Also good to see that taxpayer dollars aren't being wasted on this effort. *


I agree...The NCAA does not need to be the catalyst for social change. *They are a Sports organization and should stick with doing what they are supposed to be doing. *BTW it's interesting to see how a few other schools are viewing our situation.

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=stands&Number=4276133& page=&view=&sb=&o=

http://tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30679&highlight=North+Dakota

There are some more but I think you get the point.

You are dead wrong on who the catalyst for the changes is. I am 99.9% sure this all came about because tribes have been sending letters to the NCAA complaining of the use of their name and images and the treatment their tribal members receive because of this. Read the comments I posted in the well thought out letter by the tribal leader they couldn't stop them from doing it before and now they can. It is the tribes that have started this and I think it is great the NCAA has listened to them.

[sambini]

LEGAL FEES SHOULD BE REASONABLE WITH ALL THE UND LAW GRADS OUT THERE? GOOD LUCK AND GET THIS ISSUE SETTLED.

[Bison_Dan]

To be honest with you, it wouldn't surprise me if UND actually won this case. *Depending on whether or not Kup was actually telling it like it is in his "well thought out" letter, they may have a leg to stand on. *Oh I would hate to see how large their heads swell if they were to win. :P
I would set up a tent and live on this site 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week IBT....you'd be one of the first to know!! *
:D :D :D :D :D :D

Why - you would have won nothing that you don't have right now. It would be just you wouldn't have that issue hanging over your heads. Your relationship with the NCAA will suffer no matter what happens. ;D ;D

[BismarckBison]

Putting everything else aside...I'm happy that someone is challenging the NCAA on their rulings regarding Native American mascots. *Will be interesting to see how it turns out, as it will affect all the involved schools. *Also good to see that taxpayer dollars aren't being wasted on this effort. *


I agree...The NCAA does not need to be the catalyst for social change. *They are a Sports organization and should stick with doing what they are supposed to be doing. *BTW it's interesting to see how a few other schools are viewing our situation.

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=stands&Number=4276133& page=&view=&sb=&o=

http://tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30679&highlight=North+Dakota

There are some more but I think you get the point.

You are dead wrong on who the catalyst for the changes is. *I am 99.9% sure this all came about because tribes have been sending letters to the NCAA complaining of the use of their name and images and the treatment their tribal members receive because of this. *Read the comments I posted in the well thought out letter by the tribal leader they couldn't stop them from doing it before and now they can. *It is the tribes that have started this and I think it is great the NCAA has listened to them.


Yes, social norms change. The Native American community is working hard to make life better for the next generation, just like we do with our childern, and getting rid of offensive names and mascots is just one of the improvements.
The news interviewed the director of the Native American department at UND last night and he said during this whole process NOT ONE member of the administration has ever asked him his opinion.

[tcbison]

Anyone know if the "Fighting Illini" from Illinois are going to sue the NCAA as well? Aren't they in the same situation the Fighting Sioux are in?


I'm not sure where they are at now...but they were talking about having congress interevene.



http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/il15_johnson/Johnson_Chief_5_4_06.html


Thanks for the info!

[roadwarrior]

On the same day they vote 8-0 to allow UND to piss money down the drain suing the NCAA they come out asking President Chapman to step down because he doesn't follow their wishes and does what is right for NDSU. *

Did you dream this up kchats? There is nothing that gives that indication.

[bisonmike]

Honestly, I think the whole situation is ridiculous. Do I think the Sioux logo is hostile and abusive toward native americans? No. But then again, I am not a native american so who am I to say what is and isn't hostile and abusive. What I don't understand is the NCAA stance on it. Florida State ok, UND not ok. The NCAA needs to be universal on this decision. Either ban them all or don't ban any. I can't imagine Florida State handling the native american issue any better than how UND has. I mean, their mascot is an indian on horseback who throws a flaming spear into the ground at midfield. How is that not a hostile representation of native americans? In the end it all comes down to money. Fl St has enough to give the seminole tribe millions year after year and UND can't pay a fraction of that amount to the Sioux. I do think it's unfair even for a UND hater such as myself. Now I am done posting pro-Sioux stuff for the next 10 years.

PS I think they should change the logo and get rid of this headache once and for all.

[Sioux1]

Honestly, I think the whole situation is ridiculous. *Do I think the Sioux logo is hostile and abusive toward native americans? *No. *But then again, I am not a native american so who am I to say what is and isn't hostile and abusive. *What I don't understand is the NCAA stance on it. *Florida State ok, UND not ok. *The NCAA needs to be universal on this decision. *Either ban them all or don't ban any. *I can't imagine Florida State handling the native american issue any better than how UND has. *I mean, their mascot is an indian on horseback who throws a flaming spear into the ground at midfield. *How is that not a hostile representation of native americans? *In the end it all comes down to money. *Fl St has enough to give the seminole tribe millions year after year and UND can't pay a fraction of that amount to the Sioux. *I do think it's unfair even for a UND hater such as myself. *Now I am done posting pro-Sioux stuff for the next 10 years.

PS *I think they should change the logo and get rid of this headache once and for all.

I agree with most of this post...accept to change the logo. The bottom line is the NCAA has been inconsistent at best in determining it's criteria. Let UND/State of ND/NDTribal councils be the one to discuss options and possibly make the change. If the MAJORITY of this group wants the change, it will inevitably happen. You could argue that the NCAA involvement has worsened the matter.

[Sioux1]

Putting everything else aside...I'm happy that someone is challenging the NCAA on their rulings regarding Native American mascots. *Will be interesting to see how it turns out, as it will affect all the involved schools. *Also good to see that taxpayer dollars aren't being wasted on this effort. *


I agree...The NCAA does not need to be the catalyst for social change. *They are a Sports organization and should stick with doing what they are supposed to be doing. *BTW it's interesting to see how a few other schools are viewing our situation.

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=stands&Number=4276133& page=&view=&sb=&o=

http://tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30679&highlight=North+Dakota

There are some more but I think you get the point.

You are dead wrong on who the catalyst for the changes is. *I am 99.9% sure this all came about because tribes have been sending letters to the NCAA complaining of the use of their name and images and the treatment their tribal members receive because of this. *Read the comments I posted in the well thought out letter by the tribal leader they couldn't stop them from doing it before and now they can. *It is the tribes that have started this and I think it is great the NCAA has listened to them.


I don't believe the logo is the reason for any actual/perceived racism or stereotyping of Native AMericans...that is going to happen in our society whether the Sioux logo stays or goes.
Think about these mascots: Sooners, Red Raiders, Vandals, Rebels, Fighting Irish, Fighting Scots, etc... What do they all have in common other than being college mascots? They all represent a caucasion race. So by using NCAA logic, it is ok to perpetuate stereotypes/racist environments for these races of people, but it's not ok to do it for minorities. The NCAA is on a very slippery slope and again are engaging in a controversy that isn't theirs. This isn't a Sioux board so I don't want to push this subject too much, but this issue is bigger than the Sioux name. Yes we are voluntary members of the NCAA and should play by their rules etc...but there is no other league to join. And before someone mentions the NAIA, I believe the NCAA bought the NAIA recently, correct me if I'm wrong. So you can still consider it a monopoly. That's what we'll have to let the courts decide I guess.

[BismarckBison]

Putting everything else aside...I'm happy that someone is challenging the NCAA on their rulings regarding Native American mascots. *Will be interesting to see how it turns out, as it will affect all the involved schools. *Also good to see that taxpayer dollars aren't being wasted on this effort. *


I agree...The NCAA does not need to be the catalyst for social change. *They are a Sports organization and should stick with doing what they are supposed to be doing. *BTW it's interesting to see how a few other schools are viewing our situation.

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=stands&Number=4276133& page=&view=&sb=&o=

http://tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30679&highlight=North+Dakota

There are some more but I think you get the point.

You are dead wrong on who the catalyst for the changes is. *I am 99.9% sure this all came about because tribes have been sending letters to the NCAA complaining of the use of their name and images and the treatment their tribal members receive because of this. *Read the comments I posted in the well thought out letter by the tribal leader they couldn't stop them from doing it before and now they can. *It is the tribes that have started this and I think it is great the NCAA has listened to them.


I don't believe the logo is the reason for any actual/perceived racism or stereotyping of Native AMericans...that is going to happen in our society whether the Sioux logo stays or goes. *
Think about these mascots: *Sooners, Red Raiders, Vandals, Rebels, Fighting Irish, Fighting Scots, etc... What do they all have in common other than being college mascots? *They all represent a caucasion race. *So by using NCAA logic, it is ok to perpetuate stereotypes/racist environments for these races of people, but it's not ok to do it for minorities. *The NCAA is on a very slippery slope and again are engaging in a controversy that isn't theirs. *This isn't a Sioux board so I don't want to push this subject too much, but this issue is bigger than the Sioux name. *Yes we are voluntary members of the NCAA and should play by their rules etc...but there is no other league to join. *And before someone mentions the NAIA, I believe the NCAA bought the NAIA recently, correct me if I'm wrong. *So you can still consider it a monopoly. *That's what we'll have to let the courts decide I guess.


The difference is: taking your example; Fighting Irish, Fighting Scots and Fighting Sioux, I do not have the numbers in front of me but if we compare the % in poverty, the % of high school graduates, % of college degrees, etc...... between these three groups, it would be obvious why the Native Americans have a reason to be concerned about "perpetuate stereotypes/racist environments "

When was the last time an Irish person did not get a second job interview because they were Irish? Mid - 1800's ?

[Paulie]

I think you also have to consider who is choosing the name. It's one thing for a group of a specific decent to name themselves after a group within their organization as opposed to taking a group that has nothing to do with them and using that imagery as a mascot. It's sort of like why black people can use the "N" word while white people can't.

White people calling themselves Sioux is quite a bit different than white people calling themselves Irish or Scots.

[Sioux1]

Putting everything else aside...I'm happy that someone is challenging the NCAA on their rulings regarding Native American mascots. *Will be interesting to see how it turns out, as it will affect all the involved schools. *Also good to see that taxpayer dollars aren't being wasted on this effort. *


I agree...The NCAA does not need to be the catalyst for social change. *They are a Sports organization and should stick with doing what they are supposed to be doing. *BTW it's interesting to see how a few other schools are viewing our situation.

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=stands&Number=4276133& page=&view=&sb=&o=

http://tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30679&highlight=North+Dakota

There are some more but I think you get the point.

You are dead wrong on who the catalyst for the changes is. *I am 99.9% sure this all came about because tribes have been sending letters to the NCAA complaining of the use of their name and images and the treatment their tribal members receive because of this. *Read the comments I posted in the well thought out letter by the tribal leader they couldn't stop them from doing it before and now they can. *It is the tribes that have started this and I think it is great the NCAA has listened to them.


I don't believe the logo is the reason for any actual/perceived racism or stereotyping of Native AMericans...that is going to happen in our society whether the Sioux logo stays or goes. *
Think about these mascots: *Sooners, Red Raiders, Vandals, Rebels, Fighting Irish, Fighting Scots, etc... What do they all have in common other than being college mascots? *They all represent a caucasion race. *So by using NCAA logic, it is ok to perpetuate stereotypes/racist environments for these races of people, but it's not ok to do it for minorities. *The NCAA is on a very slippery slope and again are engaging in a controversy that isn't theirs. *This isn't a Sioux board so I don't want to push this subject too much, but this issue is bigger than the Sioux name. *Yes we are voluntary members of the NCAA and should play by their rules etc...but there is no other league to join. *And before someone mentions the NAIA, I believe the NCAA bought the NAIA recently, correct me if I'm wrong. *So you can still consider it a monopoly. *That's what we'll have to let the courts decide I guess.


The difference is: taking your example; Fighting Irish, Fighting Scots and Fighting Sioux, I do not have the numbers in front of me but if we compare the % in poverty, the % of high school graduates, % of college degrees, etc...... between these three groups, it would be obvious why the Native Americans have a reason to be concerned about "perpetuate stereotypes/racist environments "

When was the last time an Irish person did not get a second job interview because they were Irish? Mid - 1800's ?




So doesn't that prove my point that the logo doesn't cause racism/stereotypes? If the logo were the problem, then other ethnicities (Irish, Scots, Norske, etc) would share these experiences.

And if they are so concerned, why do they plaster their image/name all over casino's?

[Sioux1]

I think you also have to consider who is choosing the name. *It's one thing for a group of a specific decent to name themselves after a group within their organization as opposed to taking a group that has nothing to do with them and using that imagery as a mascot. * It's sort of like why black people can use the "N" word while white people can't. *

White people calling themselves Sioux is quite a bit different than white people calling themselves Irish or Scots. *

I do agree with this as well...my big beef is that the NCAA doesn't have any business involving themselves with this argument. When the majority of Native American Sioux/UND students/UND alum state there needs to be a change, then perhaps it's time. According to polls/surveys...this group does not seem to have a majority...yet.

[Mr._Bill]

I think you also have to consider who is choosing the name. *It's one thing for a group of a specific decent to name themselves after a group within their organization as opposed to taking a group that has nothing to do with them and using that imagery as a mascot. * It's sort of like why black people can use the "N" word while white people can't. *

White people calling themselves Sioux is quite a bit different than white people calling themselves Irish or Scots. *

I do agree with this as well...my big beef is that the NCAA doesn't have any business involving themselves with this argument. *When the majority of Native American Sioux/UND students/UND alum state there needs to be a change, then perhaps it's time. *According to polls/surveys...this group does not seem to have a majority...yet.


If the NCAA doesn't have the authority to try to address this issue who does? The high profile activities at universities where problems are noted are at NCAA events. If there is an issue to address (this is the question), the NCAA would have as much responsibility as anyone. The universities and the legislature aren't going to touch it. It is the NCAA that takes the heat from these minority groups. I believe that its in their jurisdication, but the inconsistent way they have made rulings have not helped the NCAA position.

[Scooter]

So doesn't that prove my point that the logo doesn't cause racism/stereotypes? If the logo were the problem, then other ethnicities (Irish, Scots, Norske, etc) would share these experiences.
And if they are so concerned, why do they plaster their image/name all over casino's?

No, it doesn't Sioux1, because you can't seriously compare the way the native americans were treated (and still are for that matter) to any group that you mentioned.

At this point, I don't care one way or the other if the name change happens or not. However flimsy the "perpetuating of a negative stereotype" because of the sioux logo may be against UND, the same can be said for your argument when you use the Irish, Scotts,Norske, ect. defense. Even an idiot can see that the comparision is just plain silly.

[kchats]

On the same day they vote 8-0 to allow UND to piss money down the drain suing the NCAA they come out asking President Chapman to step down because he doesn't follow their wishes and does what is right for NDSU. *

Did you dream this up kchats? *There is nothing that gives that indication.

I got it from the other topic in Bison Commons where you corrected BinCitySioux. I was pretty upset by the potshots Potts was taking at President Chapman yesterday. It is also upsetting that with so many positive things happening at NDSU this is the crap they put a story in the paper about. Thanks for correcting the information in the other topic. I for one think Potts leaving is a great idea. ;D

[kchats]

The NCAA only got involved because Native Americans got them involved. Whose letters do you think the NCAA was reading complaining about all these logos, mascots and nicknames? As for the argument that hey we are all Americans now this is a great big melting pot learn English etc, last time I checked the Native Americans were here before us. Maybe we need to learn Lakota. The Native Americans were also rounded up and forced onto the reservations. The Indian Reservations are recognized as an independent nation so they are not really Americans in that sense.

STANDING ROCK SIOUX TRIBAL GOVERNMENT

The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe stands by its right to self-government as a sovereign nation, which includes taking a government-to-government stance with the states and federal government entities. Having signed treaties as equals with the United States Government in 1851 and in 1868, which established the original boundaries of the Great Sioux Nation. The tribe staunchly asserts these treaty rights to remain steadfast and just as applicable today as on the day they were made

From the official Standing Rock Sioux Reservation webpage, History Section.
http://www.standingrock.org/

The Standing Rock Sioux Reservation is situated in North and South Dakota. The people of Standing Rock, often called Sioux, are members of the Dakota and Lakota nations. "Dakota" and "Lakota" mean "friends" or "allies." The people of these nations are often called "Sioux", a term that dates back to the seventeenth century when the people were living in the Great Lakes area. The Ojibwa called the Lakota and Dakota "Nadouwesou" meaning "adders." This term, shortened and corrupted by French traders, resulted in retention of the last syllable as "Sioux." There are various Sioux divisions and each has important cultural, linguistic, territorial and political distinctions.
The Dakota people of Standing Rock include the Upper Yanktonai in their language called Ihanktonwana which translates "Little End Village" and Lower Yanktonai, called Hunkpatina in their language, "Campers at the Horn" or "End of the Camping Circle". When the Middle Sioux moved onto the prairie they had contact with the semisedentary riverine tribes such as the Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara. Eventually the Yanktonai displaced these tribes and forced them upstream. However, periodically the Yanktonai did engage in trade with these tribes and eventually some bands adopted the earthlodge, bullboat, and horticultural techniques of these people, though buffalo remained their primary food source. The Yanktonai also maintained aspects of their former Woodland lifestyle. Today Yanktonai people of Standing Rock live primarily in communities on the North Dakota portion of the reservation.
The Lakota, as the largest division of the Sioux, subdivided into the Ti Sakowin or Seven Tents and Lakota people of the Standing Rock Reservation included two of these subdivisions, the Hunkpapa which means "Campers at the Horn" in English and Sihasapa or "Blackfeet," not to be confused with the Algonquian Blackfeet of Montana and Canada which are an entirely different group. By the early 19th century the Lakota became a northern Plains people and practically divested themselves of most all Woodland traits. The new culture revolved around the horse and buffalo; the people were nomadic and lived in tepees year round. The Hunkpapa and Sihasapa ranged in the area between the Cheyenne and Heart Rivers to the south and north and between the Missouri River on the east and Tongue to the west. Today the Lakota at Standing Rock live predominantly in communities located on the South Dakota portion of the reservation.

[kchats]

Since lawsuits seem to be such a good way to solve problems at UND, maybe the Sioux Nation needs to file a lawsuit against UND for slander or something like that. Since UND is portraying themselves as Sioux without the Tribal Nation's support. Maybe they could file this lawsuit in their own tribal court since there are treaties in place between America and the Tribal Nation their decision should be binding as well. ;)

[IowaBisonToo]

I think you also have to consider who is choosing the name. *It's one thing for a group of a specific decent to name themselves after a group within their organization as opposed to taking a group that has nothing to do with them and using that imagery as a mascot. * It's sort of like why black people can use the "N" word while white people can't. *

White people calling themselves Sioux is quite a bit different than white people calling themselves Irish or Scots. *

I do agree with this as well...my big beef is that the NCAA doesn't have any business involving themselves with this argument. *When the majority of Native American Sioux/UND students/UND alum state there needs to be a change, then perhaps it's time. *According to polls/surveys...this group does not seem to have a majority...yet.
Sioux1 - I have to reiterate my point I made earlier and agree with the others in terms of the logo/name being racist or perpetuating racist remarks/activity and I think (???) you argree also. *Vikings, Scots, Irish are all of the caucasian descent. *When school nicknames were being "doled" out, these groups were all lumped into the majority of the population - not the Sioux, Braves, etc. *So no, I don't believe it's the "right" of UND to keep this name if it offends people. *Now, why the NCAA is as wishy-washy as Al Gore is beyond me. *Personally it makes no sense but, the day will come when UND must change their name to at least some extent. *Why prolong the inevitable, waste time and waste money?

In terms of the NCAA not having any business involving themselves, who should be involved then? *Do you seriously think that if all the tribes in ND and where ever else there are Sioux tribes located, got together, went to UND and said, "We want you to change the nickname." that the administration would do so????? *They would be laughed out of the President's office so fast it would make your head spin. *UND would look down on them and basically say what gives you the right to make us change our name. *Now, you want to talk about being raciste and hostile and abusive. *That, my friend, is exactly what it would be yet the good folks at UND would think nothing of it. *That's the problem here. *That's why the NC$$ (as your friends up north like to refer to them) MUST get involved. *They have the power to at least try and do something about this situation. *This is why I have such a problem with the people at UND and call them myopic and pig-headed. *They think of nobody but themselves from the top administrator (who by the way has suckered the NDUS board into agreeing with him) down to some sophmore in high school who's thinking about going to UND.

[kitcody]

Is this Kupchella guy from another planet or what?

[sambini]

YES++++++++

[insane_ponderer]

Hey, Just stumbled across this from a friend of mine from up north....

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/index2.html

Kinda some interesting stuff...

[NanoBison]

It's good to see further proof of NDSU leading and UND following (or trying to out-do us)...


Reason #1 on the list of why they changed their name from Flickertails to Sioux :

1. Sioux are a good exterminating agent for the Bison
....

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/annis.html


Other than that, the BRIDGES site is a fine example of why most UND administration, fans and supporters have the whole issue completely backwards. It should be required reading in introductory literature classes at UND. If you want the WHOLE site you need to start at the visually disturbing front page :

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/

(The page changes around every 10-20 seconds... to tell you another fact)

[NanoBison]

This would be a better state if two individuals would just pack up and leave. (Kupchella and Potts) ;D

Make that three. (McFeely) :P

[NanoBison]

Also from the Bridges website {same page I linked to earlier}....


"In February 1972, UND decided to hold the King Kold Karnival, a weekend-long outdoor carnival"....


Ok, how stupid does an administration have to be, to not see the implications of something like that? How did they promote it? Come out and celebrate with us, the KKK?
:o


I realize mostly everyone in a University setting during the 70's was stoned out of their mind, ... but to be lacking that much common sense ???

What's truely tragic is what happened at and after the carnival... >:(

[insane_ponderer]

Yeah I was really surprised by that website I guess. I remember when the issue got hot a few years ago and even NDSU's student govt passed a resolution to not recognize the Fighthing Souix moniker.

The state of North Dakota is very non diverse, and growing up in that atmosphere has a tendency to affect some people in negative ways (ignorance) and NDSU definintely has had problems with that as well in the forms of people ripping down banners, and certain chants at football games, but und takes it to a whole different level.

[IowaBisonToo]

The one that hit home the most for me was the letter from Donna Brown - http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/brown.html. *As a parent, I can't even begin to tell you how terrible that would have made me feel. *But in the eyes of a UND "Fighting Sioux" supporter, this was probably all in their minds. *People from UND don't do this. *Or, maybe it's just the way "Fighting Sioux" supporters show their "honor." *>:( :-[ :'( *Absolutely disgusting. *You know, in the past, I could have cared less one way or another whether UND kept the nickname. *My mind has definitely been changed reading this site. *Now I hope the university goes down in flames! *It doesn't matter whether it's 20,000 people or 1 person that it offends. *If it causes racial sentiment to just one person, it's wrong!

[BisonMav]

The state of North Dakota is very non diverse, and growing up in that atmosphere has a tendency to affect some people in negative ways (ignorance) and NDSU definintely has had problems with that as well in the forms of people ripping down banners, and certain chants at football games, but und takes it to a whole different level. *

I tend to disagree. Certain towns have great diversity. My high school had less then 100 students, but there were Native American, Hispanic and Asian families in town with kids in school. The minority residence of the town were treated respectful a majority of the time, but when any Native American's came to town from the reservation, they were treated badly by certain people. I have seen several towns were there were people that treated the reservation people badly.

[USA_Hockey]

The one that hit home the most for me was the letter from Donna Brown - http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/brown.html. *As a parent, I can't even begin to tell you how terrible that would have made me feel. *But in the eyes of a UND "Fighting Sioux" supporter, this was probably all in their minds. *People from UND don't do this. *Or, maybe it's just the way "Fighting Sioux" supporters show their "honor." *>:( :-[ :'( *Absolutely disgusting. *You know, in the past, I could have cared less one way or another whether UND kept the nickname. *My mind has definitely been changed reading this site. *Now I hope the university goes down in flames! *It doesn't matter whether it's 20,000 people or 1 person that it offends. *If it causes racial sentiment to just one person, it's wrong!

The reality is is you can't please everyone. If this country ran on pleasing everyone, it would be a disaster. You have to please the majority. It is unfortunate that Ms. Brown and her daughter didn't enjoy the game, but there are plenty of Native Americans that attend UND games not too add on to the fact that a Native American (Mark Ranfraz) played for UND.

[IowaBisonToo]

The one that hit home the most for me was the letter from Donna Brown - http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/brown.html. *As a parent, I can't even begin to tell you how terrible that would have made me feel. *But in the eyes of a UND "Fighting Sioux" supporter, this was probably all in their minds. *People from UND don't do this. *Or, maybe it's just the way "Fighting Sioux" supporters show their "honor." *>:( :-[ :'( *Absolutely disgusting. *You know, in the past, I could have cared less one way or another whether UND kept the nickname. *My mind has definitely been changed reading this site. *Now I hope the university goes down in flames! *It doesn't matter whether it's 20,000 people or 1 person that it offends. *If it causes racial sentiment to just one person, it's wrong!

The reality is is you can't please everyone. *If this country ran on pleasing everyone, it would be a disaster. *You have to please the majority. *It is unfortunate that Ms. Brown and her daughter didn't enjoy the game, but there are plenty of Native Americans that attend UND games not too add on to the fact that a Native American (Mark Ranfraz) played for UND. *
So I guess if you went to an event of some sort with your daughter, people were singling you out because of your race, were throwing you nasty looks, taunted you in whatever direct or roundabout way they did and you felt the same as Ms. Brown, you'd go home, too, telling your daughter to suck it up and quit being a baby because you were a minority and the majority had the right to do what they just did to you. See that's the type of attitude I would expect out of somebody in this type of discussion - until it happened to them. You can be casual about it and say they're the minority when it's not you it's happening to. I'm not advocating a PC movement that would make everybody in the world happy by any means. However, when you can directly compare this to an equal rights movement but because it's just some "indian" bitching, then I have a problem with it. It doesn't matter if 95% of the population supports the name/moniker. Those 5% need to be thought of in this case BECAUSE it has to do with race. It's as if people have been saying for a long time, you wouldn't have a team nickname/moniker with reference to the black, gay/lesbian, asian community. Why is it OK to have one dealing with Native Americans??? I just can't understand why people can't see this? :-?

[BismarckBison]

IowaBison, great statement, good job.

A great educational institution can not be great if the foundation is built on racism.

[insane_ponderer]

The state of North Dakota is very non diverse, and growing up in that atmosphere has a tendency to affect some people in negative ways (ignorance) and NDSU definintely has had problems with that as well in the forms of people ripping down banners, and certain chants at football games, but und takes it to a whole different level. *

I tend to disagree. *Certain towns have great diversity. *My high school had less then 100 students, but there were Native American, Hispanic and Asian families in town with kids in school. *The minority residence of the town were treated respectful a majority of the time, but when any Native American's came to town from the reservation, they were treated badly by certain people. *I have seen several towns were there were people that treated the reservation people badly. *



Gil, your town must have been an exception to the rule and I can understand that being a possibility, but on a whole the state is very non diverse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota

Race and ancestry
The racial makeup of the state:

91.7% White
4.9% Native American
1.2% Hispanic
0.6% Asian
0.6% Black
1.2% Mixed race
The five largest ancestry groups in North Dakota are: German (43.9%), Norwegian (30.1%), Irish (7.7%), Native American (5%), Swedish (5%).

Most North Dakotans are of Northern European descent, especially Scandinavian and German. People of German ancestry are present throughout the state, especially the southern and central counties, and Scandinavians are also present throughout. A few counties have large Native American populations (principally on reservations). Individual counties in western and eastern North Dakota have the largest white, Russian, Ukrainian, Czech, Polish and Hungarian percentages of any county.

[Sticks]

The one that hit home the most for me was the letter from Donna Brown - http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/brown.html. *As a parent, I can't even begin to tell you how terrible that would have made me feel. *But in the eyes of a UND "Fighting Sioux" supporter, this was probably all in their minds. *People from UND don't do this. *Or, maybe it's just the way "Fighting Sioux" supporters show their "honor." *>:( :-[ :'( *Absolutely disgusting. *You know, in the past, I could have cared less one way or another whether UND kept the nickname. *My mind has definitely been changed reading this site. *Now I hope the university goes down in flames! *It doesn't matter whether it's 20,000 people or 1 person that it offends. *If it causes racial sentiment to just one person, it's wrong!
So I guess if you went to an event of some sort with your daughter, people were singling you out because of your race, were throwing you nasty looks, taunted you in whatever direct or roundabout way they did and you felt the same as Ms. Brown, you'd go home, too, telling your daughter to suck it up and quit being a baby because you were a minority and the majority had the right to do what they just did to you. *See that's the type of attitude I would expect out of somebody in this type of discussion - until it happened to them. *You can be casual about it and say they're the minority when it's not you it's happening to. *I'm not advocating a PC movement that would make everybody in the world happy by any means. *However, when you can directly compare this to an equal rights movement but because it's just some "indian" bitching, then I have a problem with it. *It doesn't matter if 95% of the population supports the name/moniker. *Those 5% need to be thought of in this case BECAUSE it has to do with race. *It's as if people have been saying for a long time, you wouldn't have a team nickname/moniker with reference to the black, gay/lesbian, asian community. *Why is it OK to have one dealing with Native Americans??? *I just can't understand why people can't see this? :-?
IowaBison, great statement, good job.
A great educational institution can not be great if the foundation is built on racism.
What trash this is, especially your retarded statement Remake....UND built on racism? *This is exactly the type of BS I'd expect from you Bisonville knuckleheads. *

I think you're taking what one woman "felt" and turning it into an afternoon Oprah special. *(You guys are the housewives in the audience balling your eyes out!) *BTW, this sounds to me like it is completely over exaggerated..."dirty looks", cheers of "Let's go Sioux" DIRECTED specifically at her, not the guys on the ice?! *C'mon now... *

You guys act as if the name was "Fighting Scalpers", or "Fighting Res. Runners" or something stupid like that...this name is supposed to be an honor to the Sioux tribes....that a University would name themselves after people like that. *What is it with you guys?? *What about this nickname seems offensive? *It's like someone said earlier, the FL ST. Seminoles have a guy painted up like a "Indian" whooping and yelling like an idiot, riding horseback toward the middle of the field....then throws a FLAMING SPEAR IN THE GROUND!?!? *But that's not hostile and abusive...UND fans yelling out "Sioux" instead of "brave" during the national anthem, cheers of "let's go Sioux" during games; stuff like that---that's the real HOSTILE AND ABUSIVE ACTIONS, RIGHT? *I'm sure these UND fans or "Englestad Entourage" weren't concerned at ALL about the game or the fact that Englestad himself was at the game (didn't happen all that often), they were focused on making one woman and her girls UNCOMFORTABLE at a hockey game. *Their goal was to seek out every Native in the building and follow them around, shooting them "dirty looks" until they left. *I heard that Englestad even hired a group of teenage girls (cause they're pro's when it comes to giving dirty looks) and had them go stand behind the Natives with their hands on their hips, to let them know that "WHITEY" didn't want them there. *Once they found this woman, they saw that she was Native American and chased her outta there like we were back in the old days of segregation...and they knew they had to watch her closely so she wouldn't start a scene and break glass and stuff, cause that's how we view every minority up in GF...

What a load....

[NebraskaBISON]

why are you guys like that? jk

[IowaBison]

why are you guys like that? jk

whaddya mean by "you guys"? ::)

[BisonMav]

Gil, your town must have been an exception to the rule and I can understand that being a possibility, but on a whole the state is very non diverse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota

Race and ancestry
The racial makeup of the state:

91.7% White
4.9% Native American
1.2% Hispanic
0.6% Asian
0.6% Black
1.2% Mixed race
The five largest ancestry groups in North Dakota are: German (43.9%), Norwegian (30.1%), Irish (7.7%), Native American (5%), Swedish (5%).

Most North Dakotans are of Northern European descent, especially Scandinavian and German. People of German ancestry are present throughout the state, especially the southern and central counties, and Scandinavians are also present throughout. A few counties have large Native American populations (principally on reservations). Individual counties in western and eastern North Dakota have the largest white, Russian, Ukrainian, Czech, Polish and Hungarian percentages of any county.


8.3 % is still enough of a percentage for people to have had a good deal of contact with minorities, especilly Native Americans.

[BisonMav]

they saw that she was Native American and chased her outta there like we were back in the old days of segregation...and they knew they had to watch her closely so she wouldn't start a scene and break glass and stuff, cause that's how we view every minority up in GF..

Segregation of the Native American still exist in the Dakota's. I remember being in a bar in Grand Forks, prior to the 1997 flood. I was the only white person in the place. I've also seen signs on business's saying "No Indians Allowed". It's not the whole of the Dakota's, but there are places, if you look, where the Native American is still not welcome in the Dakota's.

[Herd_Mentality]

"You guys act as if the name was "Fighting Scalpers", or "Fighting Res. Runners" or something stupid like that"

Wow...something like that comes out of your mouth (I don't care about the context) and it should make it really obvious to you why the NCAA did what they did.

[mebison]

...this name is supposed to be an honor to the Sioux tribes....


That's the biggest thing. *So long as there's even a vocal minority of Sioux tribe member who find the name offensive it doesn't matter what the name is "supposed" to be. *It doesn't matter whether the taking offense is 'justified' or not in your minds, our minds, or the NCAA's mind...if there is a group that doesn't want you to use their name, you might as well start thinking about other names, because its pretty much their call. *By the same token, if the tribe as a whole really does feel honored by your name, then NCAA really has no business declaring the name abusive.

Just another spin on it...people bring up the Fighting Irish and say "why don't they have to change their name?" *The simple answer is that there's no call for it...the Irish are apparently not offended by it enough to demand a change. *However, if a vocal group of Irish people said "no, we don't like this and we want it changed because we're tired of being typecast as fighters", then you'd have a whole different story and I think people would rally behind them.

[IowaBisonToo]

Kato - First off I want to say that you have some good fodder to add to the discussion board over here at Bisonville once in a while so, this is nothing against you in general. *With that said, you (and your UND friends) are so way off base with this issue I can't even believe some of the arguments that are coming out of your mouths sometimes.

I never said, nor did Ms. Brown, that there were people doing what you facetiously say they were. *It doesn't matter whether it was on purpose or not. *The fact of the matter is, they felt so uncomfortable (yeah, maybe not all Native American's feel like this) that her daughter was in tears (and from my experience, it takes a lot for a young kid like that to catch on to those types of vibes around her) and they decided to leave, it sounds, before the first period was even over. *If it's not an abusive, hostile or whatever you want to call it environment, why did the security guards/ushers give a rats ass why she was looking at the case of the trophy much less continue to ask her if she needed help after she originally said she was fine??? *Call me a Bisonville knucklehead. *I'd rather be that than associated with the crap that goes on up North currently.

Even if you take away this particular example, explain to me how a poster from one of the halls with the term "Plains Ni**a" is not hostile and abusive, just to name another example!?!? *Your love for your blessed nickname (along with all your other UND nickname supporters) has blinded you to the fact that it doesn't matter whether racist/hostile and abusive environments are physical or perceived. *It is still racist/hostile and abusive. *I have no doubt that what she felt was real. *My guess is, she is not the only one that feels this way either if there are Native Ameicans going to any kind of sporting event. *For those that have the will and intestinal fortitude to brush this type of thing asside, I say more power to them.

What will it take before the larger UND community sees there is a problem here? *Somebody being beaten to within an inch of their life or worse yet, murdered? *Oh, but hell, they probably had it coming - just like the homosexual from Wyoming (his name escapes me now) who was provoking others and was beaten to death - and don't tell me it's different because it's not. *Yeah, that's what people want, to be singled out and ridiculed or even worse. *My question to you is, how much will it take before you would admit there was a problem and the name didn't "honor" the Sioux nation anymore? *How much hostility and abuse needs to occur before you admit there is a problem? *I could care less what FSU does right now. *Just because somebody else does it, that makes it right, huh? *By the way, a bunch of your friends just jumped off a bridge. *I'll show you where it's at. ;)

[NanoBison]

...this name is supposed to be an honor to the Sioux tribes....

That's the main issue I think makes most of the opponents of the name upset. UND administration, supporters, and fans think that the Sioux nation should "feel honored to be represented by such a great institution". When it's the other way around. UND should realize that they have the great HONOR of using the Sioux name at the bequest of the Sioux people. It's simply not this though. The Sioux moniker has turned into a trademark, symbol, commercial advertisement, and many people involved with UND believe it's their right to use the name since UND does so much for the Native American people, as if it was technical terms of a legal agreement. How about UND administration, supporters and fans, observe some humble humility and consider what they are actually fighting for? Are you fighting for the namesake and honor of the Sioux Tribes or are you fighting for a name brand so you can continue to get your "Sioux-per" HotDog and "Sioux-per" Burgers at the next game? I hope it's the first of the two, but strong evidence of UND continuously ignoring and going over the heads of the tribes, seems to indicate the second rather than the first.

[Flanders]

Dear Nano,
Do you have any idea of what the percentage of Sioux Tribe members that DO NOT want the name changed? I do. Is it your position that if ANY member wants it changed, then it should be changed? That, my friend, is a very, very slippery slope.

[BisonMav]

Dear Nano,
Do you have any idea of what the percentage of Sioux Tribe members that DO NOT want the name changed? *I do. *Is it your position that if ANY member wants it changed, then it should be changed? *That, my friend, is a very, very slippery slope.

What is the percentage that do not want the name changed?

[Scooter]

However entertaining this may be to read. I have to admit that I LOVE to give UND grads crap as much as the next Bison fan. But, this thread just reaks of bull-shit. I have a hard time believing that the majority would even care one way or the other if UND wasn't involved.

If you do care so much, there are a lot of areas and or programs that you can donate time or money to help with real issues affecting the Native Americans today. I would hope that regardless the outcome of this UND situation, your deep concern won't convieniently disappear.

If I hit to close to home for some of you, well, tough. Sorry, it just needed to be said. You may continue the mud slinging.

[BisonMav]

If you do care so much, there are a lot of areas and or programs that you can donate time or money to help with real issues affecting the Native Americans today. *I would hope that regardless the outcome of this UND situation, your deep concern won't convieniently disappear.

Why would a resolution of the UND situation change a persons concern over racism?

[NanoBison]

Dear Nano,
Do you have any idea of what the percentage of Sioux Tribe members that DO NOT want the name changed? I do. Is it your position that if ANY member wants it changed, then it should be changed? That, my friend, is a very, very slippery slope.

That's obviously going to happen no matter what, someone will probably always be against it. My position, is that UND should actually work with and listen to the people they are supposedly trying to represent. They don't have official support of the tribes. The need to work on that. They were asked not to pursue legal action against the NCAA, by the tribes, and instead use money that would have went towards those efforts and use it for strengthening Native American relationships with the university, improving Native American programs, etc. UND once again, ignores them and declares to sue. It's a pattern that just never ends. It's not an issue of the majority versus the minority. It's an issue of a University not properly representing the people they claim to be representing, or even listening to them for that matter. That sir, is the very, very slippery slope you talk of.

[Scooter]

If you do care so much, there are a lot of areas and or programs that you can donate time or money to help with real issues affecting the Native Americans today. *I would hope that regardless the outcome of this UND situation, your deep concern won't convieniently disappear.

Why would a resolution of the UND situation change a persons concern over racism?

That's the whole frickin' point Gil, *the REAL concern with rasism won't change for some. If UND wasn't involved some wouldn't care to begin with.

[broke_back_mnt]

I support a school in good standing with the NCAA. Und is not in my mind doing us any favors by wasting NCAA funds because they wont change.

REA is probably behind the stuborn and adolescent "last stand". Kuppys last stand has no chance. The NCAA has the right to govern its own championship events. Und can have any nickname they want but they have to follow rules at the NCAA sponsored championship events.

They are voluntary members of the NCAA. Their only option is to leave. Und is not going to rule the NCAA through the courts.

[TransAmBison]

Personally, I would like to know exactly what it is that the members of the protesting Sioux find wrong with the Fighting Sioux. I have my feelings on the matter, but I would like to know what it is they find wrong with the nickname, not just that they have a problem with it. I think that could clarify some issues and maybe lead to a mutual agreement.

[Sioux1]

Dear Nano,
Do you have any idea of what the percentage of Sioux Tribe members that DO NOT want the name changed? *I do. *Is it your position that if ANY member wants it changed, then it should be changed? *That, my friend, is a very, very slippery slope.

That's obviously going to happen no matter what, someone will probably always be against it. My position, is that UND should actually work with and listen to the people they are supposedly trying to represent. They don't have official support of the tribes. The need to work on that. They were asked not to pursue legal action against the NCAA, by the tribes, and instead use money that would have went towards those efforts and use it for strengthening Native American relationships with the university, improving Native American programs, etc. UND once again, ignores them and declares to sue. It's a pattern that just never ends. It's not an issue of the majority versus the minority. It's an issue of a University not properly representing the people they claim to be representing, or even listening to them for that matter. That sir, is the very, very slippery slope you talk of.


You are wrong about the official support of the tribes...Spirit Lake refused to update/change their current resolution a few months ago when the NCAA contacted them. THe current resolution states "They will not oppose the Sioux nickname as long as something good comes from it." The NCAA itself called the tribal leaders and the tribal leaders stated they had more important things to deal with and were not going to address this issue now. There is ongoing dialog with the tribes about this issue. Just because UND doesn't ask for every Native Americans opinion who works with the University doesn't mean that they aren't listening to the Native Americans. The logo doesn't make people racist...Unfortunately that climate exists not only here but everywhere in the U.S. and it's not unique to Native Americans. If Native Americans have such a problem with perpetuating stereotypes, how come they are not concerned with placing their name on casino's which many people find to be morally wrong.

The University continues to be a leader in teaching Native Americans...if there were such a hostile environment, why would so many Native Americans choose to come to UND?

[TransAmBison]

Dear Nano,
Do you have any idea of what the percentage of Sioux Tribe members that DO NOT want the name changed? *I do. *Is it your position that if ANY member wants it changed, then it should be changed? *That, my friend, is a very, very slippery slope.

That's obviously going to happen no matter what, someone will probably always be against it. My position, is that UND should actually work with and listen to the people they are supposedly trying to represent. They don't have official support of the tribes. The need to work on that. They were asked not to pursue legal action against the NCAA, by the tribes, and instead use money that would have went towards those efforts and use it for strengthening Native American relationships with the university, improving Native American programs, etc. UND once again, ignores them and declares to sue. It's a pattern that just never ends. It's not an issue of the majority versus the minority. It's an issue of a University not properly representing the people they claim to be representing, or even listening to them for that matter. That sir, is the very, very slippery slope you talk of.


You are wrong about the official support of the tribes...Spirit Lake refused to update/change their current resolution a few months ago when the NCAA contacted them. *THe current resolution states "They will not oppose the Sioux nickname as long as something good comes from it." *The NCAA itself called the tribal leaders and the tribal leaders stated they had more important things to deal with and were not going to address this issue now. *There is ongoing dialog with the tribes about this issue. *Just because UND doesn't ask for every Native Americans opinion who works with the University doesn't mean that they aren't listening to the Native Americans. *The logo doesn't make people racist...Unfortunately that climate exists not only here but everywhere in the U.S. and it's not unique to Native Americans. *If Native Americans have such a problem with perpetuating stereotypes, how come they are not concerned with placing their name on casino's which many people find to be morally wrong.

The University continues to be a leader in teaching Native Americans...if there were such a hostile environment, why would so many Native Americans choose to come to UND?

*

With the last couple lines written here, I feel Sioux1 just put a "kick me" sign on his back. I mean, the last line is just asking for a punch line. Sorry, I'll try to be serious now.

[NanoBison]

Dear Nano,
Do you have any idea of what the percentage of Sioux Tribe members that DO NOT want the name changed? I do. Is it your position that if ANY member wants it changed, then it should be changed? That, my friend, is a very, very slippery slope.

That's obviously going to happen no matter what, someone will probably always be against it. My position, is that UND should actually work with and listen to the people they are supposedly trying to represent. They don't have official support of the tribes. The need to work on that. They were asked not to pursue legal action against the NCAA, by the tribes, and instead use money that would have went towards those efforts and use it for strengthening Native American relationships with the university, improving Native American programs, etc. UND once again, ignores them and declares to sue. It's a pattern that just never ends. It's not an issue of the majority versus the minority. It's an issue of a University not properly representing the people they claim to be representing, or even listening to them for that matter. That sir, is the very, very slippery slope you talk of.


You are wrong about the official support of the tribes...Spirit Lake refused to update/change their current resolution a few months ago when the NCAA contacted them. THe current resolution states "They will not oppose the Sioux nickname as long as something good comes from it." The NCAA itself called the tribal leaders and the tribal leaders stated they had more important things to deal with and were not going to address this issue now. There is ongoing dialog with the tribes about this issue. Just because UND doesn't ask for every Native Americans opinion who works with the University doesn't mean that they aren't listening to the Native Americans. The logo doesn't make people racist...Unfortunately that climate exists not only here but everywhere in the U.S. and it's not unique to Native Americans. If Native Americans have such a problem with perpetuating stereotypes, how come they are not concerned with placing their name on casino's which many people find to be morally wrong.

The University continues to be a leader in teaching Native Americans...if there were such a hostile environment, why would so many Native Americans choose to come to UND?



Woa. Back up there a minute Sioux1. Don't start putting words in my mouth. I never stated UND needed to "ask every Native American" their opinion. Actually talking to the Tribes though, instead of having the NCAA do it for them, might help things though. How am I wrong about the "official support" of the tribes? Ron His Horse Is Thunder had to send in a letter to the NCAA correcting the position, after Archie Fool Bear's letter stating support was there. Support is currently not there. UND wouldn't know this, becuase they never bother talking with the Tribes. They always ignore them or go over their heads to get what UND wants.
"There is ongoing dialog with the tribes about this issue." - I'd like to see some news articles where UND administration actually go out to the reservations to sit and meet with the tribal leaders. Discuss the issues.

[roadwarrior]

This politcal correctness stuff about athletic team names started a l-o-n-g time ago, and since then there have been probably hundreds of name changes across the country both at the high school and college level. Personally, the use of the name by UND doesnt bother me at all, but then I am not a Native American. Even if the lawsuit against the NCAA is successful, the name issue will not go away. It will be with UND basically until they finally cave in and change the name. It might be 10, 20, 30 or more years but at some point it will probably happen.

One thing that they might want to consider up in Grand Forks. Let us assume that they make the move to D-I. What if one or more college presidents of a potential conference that they might like to join is in this politcal correctness camp? Do you think that might affect a potential invitation to a conference somewhere down the line?

[NanoBison]

Very good point to bring up roadwarrior...

[kchats]

Personally, I would like to know exactly what it is that the members of the protesting Sioux find wrong with the Fighting Sioux. *I have my feelings on the matter, but I would like to know what it is they find wrong with the nickname, not just that they have a problem with it. *I think that could clarify some issues and maybe lead to a mutual agreement. *

Here are some quotes from a letter written to the board by a Native American University member posted earlier in this thread.

University programs that benefit American Indians do not justify using the name and logo, said Gipp, who believes they create a hostile and abusive environment at UND for Indian students.

"The documented atmosphere for American Indian students at UND, especially those who oppose the logo and nickname, is anything but friendly," his letter says.

A number of Indian tribes and organizations want the University of North Dakota to drop its nickname and logo, and their desires should be respected, Gipp said.

A resolution from the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe, which says it does not oppose the nickname and logo if they are used respectfully, should be regarded skeptically, Gipp's letter says.

The tribe has not responded to questions about whether its members believe the current use is respectful, Gipp said, nor has it approved a resolution giving outright support to the logo and nickname.

"The present UND logo and nickname were selected at a time when the Indian people of this region had virtually no power, and no effective way to oppose the selection of the nickname, or to challenge whether they wanted to be known through a caricature on a football or hockey jersey," the letter says. "Now that the tribes of this region have spoken against the logo and nickname, there are still some who think that it doesn't matter what the tribal governments say about this issue."

I have only stated that the people whose opinion matters most on this matter are the tribes of North Dakota and South Dakota. If the leader of the tribal council writes a letter to the NCAA opposing the use of the name and has to point out that UND does not have the support they claim to have there is something wrong with how UND is doing things. Don't you think they should only use correspondence from the council leader as opposed to a representative? That would be like a Senator or Representative with an opposing view to the President writing a letter contradicting the President's policy and sending it out quickly to undermine the president's position. That would probably be considered treason which isn't a good thing. If the Spirit Lake Tribe was actually on the phone with the NCAA regarding their resolution to not oppose the nickname and they didn't state clearly that they don't oppose the nickname but instead they had other more important issues that tells me they don't support it. How hard would it have been to say yes we don't have a problem with it?

[USA_Hockey]

Personally, I would like to know exactly what it is that the members of the protesting Sioux find wrong with the Fighting Sioux. *I have my feelings on the matter, but I would like to know what it is they find wrong with the nickname, not just that they have a problem with it. *I think that could clarify some issues and maybe lead to a mutual agreement. *

Here are some quotes from a letter written to the board by a Native American University member posted earlier in this thread.

University programs that benefit American Indians do not justify using the name and logo, said Gipp, who believes they create a hostile and abusive environment at UND for Indian students.

"The documented atmosphere for American Indian students at UND, especially those who oppose the logo and nickname, is anything but friendly," his letter says.

A number of Indian tribes and organizations want the University of North Dakota to drop its nickname and logo, and their desires should be respected, Gipp said.

A resolution from the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe, which says it does not oppose the nickname and logo if they are used respectfully, should be regarded skeptically, Gipp's letter says.

The tribe has not responded to questions about whether its members believe the current use is respectful, Gipp said, nor has it approved a resolution giving outright support to the logo and nickname.

"The present UND logo and nickname were selected at a time when the Indian people of this region had virtually no power, and no effective way to oppose the selection of the nickname, or to challenge whether they wanted to be known through a caricature on a football or hockey jersey," the letter says. "Now that the tribes of this region have spoken against the logo and nickname, there are still some who think that it doesn't matter what the tribal governments say about this issue."

I have only stated that the people whose opinion matters most on this matter are the tribes of North Dakota and South Dakota. *If the leader of the tribal council writes a letter to the NCAA opposing the use of the name and has to point out that UND does not have the support they claim to have there is something wrong with how UND is doing things. *Don't you think they should only use correspondence from the council leader as opposed to a representative? *That would be like a Senator or Representative with an opposing view to the President writing a letter contradicting the President's policy and sending it out quickly to undermine the president's position. *That would probably be considered treason which isn't a good thing. *If the Spirit Lake Tribe was actually on the phone with the NCAA regarding their resolution to not oppose the nickname and they didn't state clearly that they don't oppose the nickname but instead they had other more important issues that tells me they don't support it. *How hard would it have been to say yes we don't have a problem with it?

It doesn't matter whether the tribe was on the phone with the NCAA or not. That is the whole point to the lawsuit because there isn't a law stating that the NCAA has the right to decide a schools nickname. There are two Sioux tribes (or should I call them Dakota and then we can discuss the name Dakota being used) and one supports the logo and the other doesn't, that is why there has been confusion over the logo.

[IowaBison]

The NCAA isn't deciding any school's nickname.

They are saying that if you want to attend an event we sponsor you will not be allowed to refer to a moniker that many find offensive.

[mikelsch]

The NCAA isn't deciding any school's nickname.

They are saying that if you want to attend an event we sponsor you will not be allowed to refer to a moniker that many find offensive.



And this is why the NCAA will win the lawsuit

[Sticks]

The NCAA isn't deciding any school's nickname.

They are saying that if you want to attend an event we sponsor you will not be allowed to refer to a moniker that many find offensive.



And this is why the NCAA will win the lawsuit

Thank you for the insight Mr. Cochrane....but there's a little more to it than that. It's not the NCAA's right to regulate what a school can and can not use as a logo...so it's not as clear cut as you may like to think.

[insane_ponderer]

The NCAA isn't deciding any school's nickname.

They are saying that if you want to attend an event we sponsor you will not be allowed to refer to a moniker that many find offensive.



And this is why the NCAA will win the lawsuit

It's not the NCAA's right to regulate what a school can and can not use as a logo...so it's not as clear cut as you may like to think.

I thought that it was the NCAA's right? They run the show, you are a member in their party, they are the governing body aren't they? I thought this was the major difference between college and pro naming issues was that the NCAA has the right to say yes and no, as for professional teams, since they are privately owned its up to the individual team...hence why a reprehensible name like the Washington redskins has stuck around for so long.

[BisonMav]

The NCAA isn't deciding any school's nickname.

They are saying that if you want to attend an event we sponsor you will not be allowed to refer to a moniker that many find offensive.

This point seems to get lost in many discussions on the topic.

[broke_back_mnt]

Controlling member sponsored events and controlling what nickname a school uses are different things. This issue is about the NCAAs right to govern its own events internally. I doubt the courts are going to agree that they should be the ones governing the NCAAs championship events.

Und can maintain any nickname they want. Wheres the Beef?

[USA_Hockey]

Seems like a good argument but the problem is is that some schools get to use their name and others don't. The NCAA doesn't have the authority to say that some schools have an offensive logo and others don't and those schools can use theirs and others can't.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Let's all try and watch the name calling on this thread. Personal attacks and remarks are not welcome. Debate the point with out getting personal.......

[mikelsch]

Seems like a good argument but the problem is is that some schools get to use their name and others don't. *The NCAA doesn't have the authority to say that some schools have an offensive logo and others don't and those schools can use theirs and others can't. *

Why don't they? The post-season events are their events, so they get to make the rules regarding host sites and its atmosphere.

[broke_back_mnt]

Has anybody actually seen the Und case?

Are they arguing that the NCAA doesnt have the right to govern its own events in this manner and schools can use any nickname they want or are they conceding the NCAA has the right to govern its own events but Und actually meets the standards regarding nickname use and should be included with the others that have demostrated they met the standards?

[BisonMav]

Seems like a good argument but the problem is is that some schools get to use their name and others don't. *The NCAA doesn't have the authority to say that some schools have an offensive logo and others don't and those schools can use theirs and others can't. *

It comes down to having tribal backing, like Florida State.

[USA_Hockey]

Has anybody actually seen the Und case?

Are they arguing that the NCAA doesnt have the right to govern its own events in this manner and schools can use any nickname they want or are they conceding the NCAA has the right to govern its own events but Und actually meets the standards regarding nickname use and should be included with the others that have demostrated they met the standards?

What are the NCAA standards for nickname use? Throughout this whole process the NCAA has been very indefinite on what the standards are nor do they have a clear and concise rule stating what schools have to do to maintain their logo. This is the same idea that Kupchella was referring to with Pontiac being the NCAA's sponsor. That is UND's case, that their is no precise rule that states what a school has to do to maintain their logo for NCAA tournament events.

[BisonMav]

What are the NCAA standards for nickname use? *Throughout this whole process the NCAA has been very indefinite on what the standards are nor do they have a clear and concise rule stating what schools have to do to maintain their logo. *This is the same idea that Kupchella was referring to with Pontiac being the NCAA's sponsor. *That is UND's case, that their is no precise rule that states what a school has to do to maintain their logo for NCAA tournament events. *

Pontiac was the name of a Chief, not a tribe.
There was also a Chief named Joseph.

[IowaBison]

their is no precise rule that states what a school has to do to maintain their logo for NCAA tournament events.

So what?

The NCAA is a private organization that can run itself however it wants.

[TransAmBison]

Personally, I would like to know exactly what it is that the members of the protesting Sioux find wrong with the Fighting Sioux. *I have my feelings on the matter, but I would like to know what it is they find wrong with the nickname, not just that they have a problem with it. *I think that could clarify some issues and maybe lead to a mutual agreement. *

Here are some quotes from a letter written to the board by a Native American University member posted earlier in this thread.

University programs that benefit American Indians do not justify using the name and logo, said Gipp, who believes they create a hostile and abusive environment at UND for Indian students.

"The documented atmosphere for American Indian students at UND, especially those who oppose the logo and nickname, is anything but friendly," his letter says.

A number of Indian tribes and organizations want the University of North Dakota to drop its nickname and logo, and their desires should be respected, Gipp said.

A resolution from the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe, which says it does not oppose the nickname and logo if they are used respectfully, should be regarded skeptically, Gipp's letter says.

The tribe has not responded to questions about whether its members believe the current use is respectful, Gipp said, nor has it approved a resolution giving outright support to the logo and nickname.

"The present UND logo and nickname were selected at a time when the Indian people of this region had virtually no power, and no effective way to oppose the selection of the nickname, or to challenge whether they wanted to be known through a caricature on a football or hockey jersey," the letter says. "Now that the tribes of this region have spoken against the logo and nickname, there are still some who think that it doesn't matter what the tribal governments say about this issue."

I have only stated that the people whose opinion matters most on this matter are the tribes of North Dakota and South Dakota. *If the leader of the tribal council writes a letter to the NCAA opposing the use of the name and has to point out that UND does not have the support they claim to have there is something wrong with how UND is doing things. *Don't you think they should only use correspondence from the council leader as opposed to a representative? *That would be like a Senator or Representative with an opposing view to the President writing a letter contradicting the President's policy and sending it out quickly to undermine the president's position. *That would probably be considered treason which isn't a good thing. *If the Spirit Lake Tribe was actually on the phone with the NCAA regarding their resolution to not oppose the nickname and they didn't state clearly that they don't oppose the nickname but instead they had other more important issues that tells me they don't support it. *How hard would it have been to say yes we don't have a problem with it?
That still doesn't answer what they feel is wrong with the nickname. They feel it is hostile and abusive. I would like them to explain it. I just don't feel they have justified a position. So far, all I think this has turned out to be is a few people looking for a cause to protest and then others getting all riled up. That is why I would like them to explain in detail what is so offensive.

[broke_back_mnt]

Its still not clear. Do you want the NCAA to drop the Pontiac sponsorship or just allow unD to have its way?

Should everyone in the NCAA that has met the criteria be forced, by the courts, to drop their nicknames or should unD just get its way?

Should every example that has been cited in Kuppys “Last Stand Letter” be reversed, or should unD just get its way?

[Sioux1]

"There is ongoing dialog with the tribes about this issue." - I'd like to see some news articles where UND administration actually go out to the reservations to sit and meet with the tribal leaders. Discuss the issues.

* [/quote]

I don't have the specific articles...due to not being registered, but here are some exerpts from articles relating to UND's ongoing dialogue with the Tribes.


Story by David Knutson, Grand Forks Herald, Dec. 22, 2000SAME NAME, NEW LOGOSPIRIT LAKE SENDS UND ITS SUPPORTTRIBAL CHAIRMAN WANTS TO SEE `SOMETHING POSITIVE' Spirit Lake Nation's Tribal Council sent a resolution to UND President Charles Kupchella offering support for the Fighting Sioux nickname. Tribal Chairman Phillip Skip Longie said the resolution was an attempt to bring about an end to the nickname issue. I'd like something positive to come out of this whole thing, Longie said. This is going to come up again and again and again. If the university doesn't do something to take a stand, to do something positive, it will keep coming up. Longie wouldn't reveal what was included in the resolution, referring questions about it to Kupchella. Kupchella said he can't comment about the resolution because he hasn't seen it. He said he doesn't know what is in it. The president did say he talked with Longie about a week ago and Longie told him the resolution was positive. Earlier this month the Great Plains Tribal Chairmen Association reaffirmed an earlier resolution asking UND to change the Fighting Sioux nickname. Some Sioux people find the name offensive. Longie said he wasn't pleased by the action taken by the state Board of Higher Education in voting unanimously to retain the nickname. How many Sioux are on that board, he replied when asked about the board's action Friday. In fact, Longie said he thought Kupchella still had to make a decision over the name despite the board's vote. He added that at a recent meeting with 184 elderly members of the tribe, the issue was split down the middle, as far as supporters and opponents of the Fighting Sioux nickname. Longie also said he supported UND's recent events held to showcase Native American culture and tradition. I think it is an excellent idea, he said, adding that more events would be beneficial.

And for more recent examples here's a link to a discussion at ss.com which talks more in depth about the ongoing dialogue

http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5613

[Sioux1]

Since there is some confusion as to whether or not the tribes support the logo...Could/should UND receive the same option Bradley University received? *This could have given both sides some time to come to a final resolution...or just delay everything a little longer :-/


Here's the link to the Bradley story *http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4j3NQDJgFjGpvqRqC KO6AI-YXARX4_83FR9b_0A_YLc0NCIckdFAEuT364!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfTFU!?CONTENT_URL=h ttp://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_events/press_room/2006/april/20060428_ec_release.html

[NDSUstudent]

Here is an article from the Star Tribune about UND's nickname battle, I am sure our friends to the North will enjoy it.....

Why does UND insist on being so hardheaded?
Nick Coleman, Star Tribune


If, despite the general flatness, there is anything resembling a cliff near Grand Forks, N.D., it would be wise to post a cop near the summit. UND appears ready to jump.
The University of North Dakota is behaving self-destructively and needs an intervention. Its academic poohbahs seem to suffer from an identity disorder in which they imagine they personify the courage and tenacity of the Sioux Indians whose name they sully.

The head of a North Dakota college that actually is run by Indians -- a tribal technical college in Bismarck -- has called on UND to stop its increasingly bizarre effort to keep its "Fighting Sioux" nickname. Similar pleas have come from the tribal leadership at the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation, the Bismarck Tribune, and the leaders of Indian student organizations at UND. But UND can't help itself. It is like the guy with the mustache in "Brokeback Mountain" who says "I wish I could quit you," and then puts up the pup tent.....

http://www.startribune.com/357/story/505411.html

[Bison7925]

As Sambini would say +++++++++++++

[kchats]

Personally, I would like to know exactly what it is that the members of the protesting Sioux find wrong with the Fighting Sioux. *I have my feelings on the matter, but I would like to know what it is they find wrong with the nickname, not just that they have a problem with it. *I think that could clarify some issues and maybe lead to a mutual agreement. *

Here are some quotes from a letter written to the board by a Native American University member posted earlier in this thread.

University programs that benefit American Indians do not justify using the name and logo, said Gipp, who believes they create a hostile and abusive environment at UND for Indian students.

"The documented atmosphere for American Indian students at UND, especially those who oppose the logo and nickname, is anything but friendly," his letter says.

A number of Indian tribes and organizations want the University of North Dakota to drop its nickname and logo, and their desires should be respected, Gipp said.

A resolution from the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe, which says it does not oppose the nickname and logo if they are used respectfully, should be regarded skeptically, Gipp's letter says.

The tribe has not responded to questions about whether its members believe the current use is respectful, Gipp said, nor has it approved a resolution giving outright support to the logo and nickname.

"The present UND logo and nickname were selected at a time when the Indian people of this region had virtually no power, and no effective way to oppose the selection of the nickname, or to challenge whether they wanted to be known through a caricature on a football or hockey jersey," the letter says. "Now that the tribes of this region have spoken against the logo and nickname, there are still some who think that it doesn't matter what the tribal governments say about this issue."

I have only stated that the people whose opinion matters most on this matter are the tribes of North Dakota and South Dakota. *If the leader of the tribal council writes a letter to the NCAA opposing the use of the name and has to point out that UND does not have the support they claim to have there is something wrong with how UND is doing things. *Don't you think they should only use correspondence from the council leader as opposed to a representative? *That would be like a Senator or Representative with an opposing view to the President writing a letter contradicting the President's policy and sending it out quickly to undermine the president's position. *That would probably be considered treason which isn't a good thing. *If the Spirit Lake Tribe was actually on the phone with the NCAA regarding their resolution to not oppose the nickname and they didn't state clearly that they don't oppose the nickname but instead they had other more important issues that tells me they don't support it. *How hard would it have been to say yes we don't have a problem with it?
That still doesn't answer what they feel is wrong with the nickname. *They feel it is hostile and abusive. *I would like them to explain it. *I just don't feel they have justified a position. *So far, all I think this has turned out to be is a few people looking for a cause to protest and then others getting all riled up. *That is why I would like them to explain in detail what is so offensive.

Did you read what he wrote?

University programs that benefit American Indians do not justify using the name and logo, said Gipp, who believes they create a hostile and abusive environment at UND for Indian students.

"The documented atmosphere for American Indian students at UND, especially those who oppose the logo and nickname, is anything but friendly," his letter says.

As everyone else has said the outcome of the impending lawsuit will be bad for UND no matter the decision. If UND wins the controversy continues and UND eventually ends up in court and if UND loses they were still thickheaded enough to waste money on the controversial issue. This is a no-win situation for UND and all it will do is provide embarrassment to both UND and North Dakota nationwide. This lawsuit will get UND all kinds of negative national exposure. It will be bigger than the NDSU win over Wisconsin and UND will be a laughing stock because of it.

[broke_back_mnt]

If the administration of the nickname issue has been so inconsistant why has this policy worked for every other school in the NCAA but not unD. *

Its still unclear, even if the claim is inconsistancy in the nickname standards is unD asking the courts to make the NCAA stop governing nickname use at its own championship events, or just force the NCAA to allow unD to use theirs but the other rulings against the schools that changed will still stand?

[Sticks]

Here is an article from the Star Tribune about UND's nickname battle, I am sure our friends to the North will enjoy it.....

Why does UND insist on being so hardheaded?
Nick Coleman, Star Tribune


If, despite the general flatness, there is anything resembling a cliff near Grand Forks, N.D., it would be wise to post a cop near the summit. UND appears ready to jump.
The University of North Dakota is behaving self-destructively and needs an intervention. Its academic poohbahs seem to suffer from an identity disorder in which they imagine they personify the courage and tenacity of the Sioux Indians whose name they sully.

The head of a North Dakota college that actually is run by Indians -- a tribal technical college in Bismarck -- has called on UND to stop its increasingly bizarre effort to keep its "Fighting Sioux" nickname. Similar pleas have come from the tribal leadership at the Standing Rock Sioux Reservation, the Bismarck Tribune, and the leaders of Indian student organizations at UND. But UND can't help itself. It is like the guy with the mustache in "Brokeback Mountain" who says "I wish I could quit you," and then puts up the pup tent.....

http://www.startribune.com/357/story/505411.html

They're already up in arms about this over there....

[kchats]

It's not the only place people are upset at UND. UND is probably pretty high on alot of lists for doing this and the lists are not favorable. ;)

[Sioux1]

Here is another example of UND working with the tribes on the nickname issue...Dr. Kupchella also clarifies quite a few of the misconceptions that people like Nick Coleman are twisting and putting their own slant on. http://www.uscho.com/news/id,12631/CharlesKupchellaUNDsSurprisingNicknameWarrior.html

I particularily would like to point out this part of the article.

The evidence of Kupchella's intentions cited in that article and in many since is a quote from a Dec. 16, 2000, e-mail he sent to the chairman of the State Board of Higher Education. "I see no choice but to respect the request of Sioux tribes that we quit using their name, because to do otherwise would be to put the university and its president in an untenable position," Kupchella wrote.

But in an interview with USCHO, Kupchella explained the e-mail quote is often taken and used out of context. He said the statement represents "a fragment of what was really a very thorough, comprehensive consideration of options."

The sentence was lifted from a 16-page e-mail that outlined various scenarios on the nickname issue and solutions for dealing with them. The potential loss of support from both Sioux tribes in North Dakota was but one of several possible scenarios, Kupchella noted.

"However, we had within days of that exchange, a unilateral resolution of support for permission given to us by the Spirit Lake Tribal Council, signed by members of the council that said, ‘Hey, it's okay with us if you use our nickname provided that you do it respectfully and some good comes of it.' That took that argument or that scenario off the table because that's our nearest Sioux tribe," Kupchella recalled.

[IowaBison]

Here is another example of UND working with the tribes on the nickname issue...Dr. Kupchella also clarifies quite a few of the misconceptions that people like Nick Coleman are twisting and putting their own slant on. http://www.uscho.com/news/id,12631/CharlesKupchellaUNDsSurprisingNicknameWarrior.html

I particularily would like to point out this part of the article.

The evidence of Kupchella's intentions cited in that article and in many since is a quote from a Dec. 16, 2000, e-mail he sent to the chairman of the State Board of Higher Education. "I see no choice but to respect the request of Sioux tribes that we quit using their name, because to do otherwise would be to put the university and its president in an untenable position," Kupchella wrote.

But in an interview with USCHO, Kupchella explained the e-mail quote is often taken and used out of context. He said the statement represents "a fragment of what was really a very thorough, comprehensive consideration of options."

The sentence was lifted from a 16-page e-mail that outlined various scenarios on the nickname issue and solutions for dealing with them. The potential loss of support from both Sioux tribes in North Dakota was but one of several possible scenarios, Kupchella noted.

"However, we had within days of that exchange, a unilateral resolution of support for permission given to us by the Spirit Lake Tribal Council, signed by members of the council that said, ‘Hey, it's okay with us if you use our nickname provided that you do it respectfully and some good comes of it.' That took that argument or that scenario off the table because that's our nearest Sioux tribe," Kupchella recalled.





sure ;)


and the Kupchella quote from the article about he and Engelstad having a few disagreements jives perfectly with the letter Charles wrote:

http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/bridges/dearchuck.html

looks like some folks are trying to rewrite history

[Sioux1]

Nanobison asked for examples of UND and the tribes working together because he hadn't seen any proof. All I'm doing is providing examples to show people that it isn't as clear cut of a decision as the NCAA would like to make it seem in UND's case. So here's another example ;)

USCHO: Two of North Dakota's largest newspapers, the Fargo Forum and the Bismarck Tribune, recently called for UND to change its nickname. On Sunday, Grand Forks Herald publisher Mike Jacobs wrote a column saying that a UND lawsuit against the NCAA wasn't good for North Dakota's image. How do you respond to those from within the state who believe that it would be best for UND to drop the Sioux nickname and logo?

Kupchella: The issue on the table currently is the NCAA's handling of this whole controversy. Everybody's entitled to an opinion, even people who publish and edit newspapers. Our story is that we picked the nickname in the '30s to identify with the spirit and determination of a great people. We've gone about it — certainly in the time I've been here — with a great deal of respect and sensitivity. We have formal written approval to use the name from the nearest Sioux tribe. As far as I'm concerned, case closed. That means that anyone who thinks it should change, it's just an opinion. That's it. That's the argument and that's how I look at it. I'm always and will forever be amazed at how much interest this rather un-profound issue has among the public and the media. It's kind of amazing, isn't it? (Laughs) We're dealing with the issue and the NCAA now as if it were a separate issue because, in many ways, it is. Punishing student-athletes because someone has a particular opinion is just dead wrong.

But I would hasten to add that we are talking with the tribal leaders throughout the state. We've had several good meetings. We have another scheduled for later in July. And on the table are both options: We find a way to keep the nickname and change or tweak it somehow so that everybody finds it acceptable going forward. And we also have on the table changing it. The American Indian leaders are just as cognizant as I am that we want to do it in such a way that it doesn't make things worse. If we were to change this too abruptly for what appeared to be little reason, relationships between American Indians and non-natives on the upper Great Plains could be impacted negatively for a long time. They're aware of that, too. So those discussions are very thorough. We're not adamant about keeping this name for all eternity. It's under discussion how we can change it to make it more inclusive. What we would not do is change the architecture of the Engelstad Arena, airbrush the word "Sioux" off the jerseys of people depicted in national championship teams in pictures on the walls over there. First, though, we have to exhaust the possibilities for keeping the name in a way that's acceptable and reasonable to all the tribes. I hasten to add again: we already have permission. We've had it for six years. When asked if they want to keep it, the Spirit Lake tribal leaders have asked, "Which word isn't clear? We passed a resolution and we stand by it."

[IowaBison]

?

You state that you want to provide examples of UND working with tribes and then you reference meetings where UND met with them to get permission?

You call that proof?

How do I respond to say that it is in the best interest of UND to drop the name? I agree completely. I think your president, university are making asses of themselves and this state.

[Sioux1]

Did you not read the highlighted portion that states "both options are on the table"? Of course our President would like to keep the name, but he realizes that in the end, retiring the name/logo may be the way to go.

[Sioux1]

BTW we don't have to convice the Spirit Lake Tribe to give us permission, because they already have.

[Bisonguy]

BTW we don't have to convice the Spirit Lake Tribe to give us permission, because they already have.

Have they, or did they just state that they would not oppose it?

A link to the actual statement or news story would help may help your case.

[kchats]

I believe it is to not oppose it. They also haven't reaffirmed this since that resolution. They have been asked point blank and have refused to discuss the situation. Sounds to me like they are more against it than for it because if they were truly for it they would tell somebody.

[Sioux1]

BTW we don't have to convice the Spirit Lake Tribe to give us permission, because they already have.

Have they, or did they just state that they would not oppose it?

A link to the actual statement or news story would help may help your case.


I believe I already did provide a link with this story....html (http://www.uscho.com/news/id,12631/CharlesKupchellaUNDsSurprisingNicknameWarrior)

I have tried finding the actual resolution but to no avail. However, Kupchella has referred to this resolution numerous times in the media and in his appeal to the NCAA. If it was not correct or the Spirit Lake tribe thought he was misinterpreting it, I'm sure they would have let him and everyone else know that. Remember what the Standing Rock Tribe did when Archie Fool Bear tried to show the NCAA that some/majority of his tribe support the name.

Personally I see an opportunity for UND and the Sioux tribes now that the nickname debate has somewhat of a national platform. The Engelstad arena is a major factor in the whole nickname debate. The arena is one of the best athletic facilities in the nation/world. Is it possible for UND to work with the Sioux tribe to incorporate some Native American history into the arena. It has the potential to be a great educational tool about Native American culture. People from the region, country, and the world visit the arena. What better venue than to educate on the Native American culture.

[broke_back_mnt]

The problem is the dispute. *The claim of Tribal support is not conclusive as it is with the other Universities that have been allowed to continue using their names. *Hostile and abusive comes out of having no permission. *You say you have it but it is easily disputed or discredited by other facts. *

Because of the inability, unwillingness, or direction from outside Und will not accept this and is wasting all kinds of NCAA resources. *I dont appreciate that and I imagine others feel the same.

[Sioux1]

The problem is the dispute. *The claim of Tibal support is not conclusive as it is with the other Universities that have been allowed to continue using their names. *Hostile and abusive comes out of having no permission. *You say you have it but it is easily disputed or discredited by other facts. *

Because of the inability, unwillingness, or direction from outside Und will not accept this and is wasting all kinds of NCAA resources. *I dont appreciate that and I imagine others feel the same.

I'm not sure how closely you have followed this story. There were initially 18 schools who were on the list. One by one schools have come off that list and been granted certain exemptions. One of the problems with the NCAA logic is that they have changed the criteria as they have gone along. In a letter dated January 30th, 2006, Kupchella talks about the inconsistency in applying the NCAA policy on Nicknames.

D. Uneven Application of the Namesake Tribe Exception is Indicative of Bad Faith on the Part of the NCAA
Despite the fact that the NCAA has a good faith obligation to its member institutions to apply rules and policies in an even-handed and fair manner, the Staff Committee continues to defend an arbitrary and capricious application of the namesake tribe exception. In its communications, the Staff Committee has consistently avoided explaining its inconsistent application of the namesake tribe exception. Given the irrational results reached in the case of Central Michigan University and Florida State University, this avoidance is understandable. Rather than address the absurdity of these results, the Staff Committee has attempted to hide behind a mechanical explanation of how the exception is applied. Blatant inconsistencies continue to go unexplained:

Central Michigan vis a vis UND

The Staff Committee indicates that a resolution passed by the tribe nearest UND is insufficient to satisfy the namesake tribe exception because of opposition from other Sioux tribes. Notwithstanding this logic, the NCAA granted an exemption to CMU because on Chippewa tribe endorsed CMU, without proof the other five tribes in the State of Michigan also support the use of the name. The Staff Committee defends its decision because “the NCAA did not receive, and was not notified of any opposition from the other five tribes or bands of Chippewa Indians.” Nov. 9, 2005 NCAA memo at 10. However, as the NCAA has said previously, “the decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name is used, must be respected even when others may not agree.”

CMU and UND have both asserted the same grounds for exemption from the Policy, i.e. tribal support from the namesake tribe nearest each campus. The Staff Committee has granted CMU an exemption on that basis while denying it to UND, despite fulfillment of that condition. The arbitrary withholding of an exemption from UND speaks volumes about the Staff Committee’s lack of good faith in dealing with UND.

Florida State University vis a vis UND

The blanket exemption for the Seminoles clearly illustrates the inconsistent and uneven manner in which the namesake tribe exception has been applied by the Staff Committee. While the Staff Committee pondered UND’s seond appeal, Florida State met Penn State in the Orange Bow. The game, a triple-overtime thriller, is estimated to have reached over 13.5 million American homes. While Joe Paterno was relieved that Renegade, Chief Osceola’s trusty steed, did not make the trip, millions of viewers were treated to a wide array of Indian imagery, uniquely stylized by Florida State. When a steady does of the Florida State fight song spurred the FSU faithful to tire their arms doing the “tomahawk chop” on national television, the NCAA’s unprincipled application of the namesake tribe exception was revealed to the nation. It became clear that the NCAA had granted an exemption to a school that revels in perpetuating stereotypical images of Native Americans while denying it to UND whose use, when compared to FSU’s, is clearly not stereotypical and thus not harmful The Staff Committee’s application of the namesake tribe exemption stands the Policy on its head by prohibiting UND’s respectful usage while allowing FSU’s “tomahawk chop.’

Without being able to point to a specific example of hostile or abusive practice at UND, the NCAA punishes the Fighting Sioux. At the same time, the Staff Committee exempts the Seminoles and turns a blind eye to specific, objective behaviors by FSU partisans, which might actually be considered hostile or abusive. The Staff Committee parades the namesake tribe exception to justify its position as to FSU, but it fails to realize that this absurd result demonstrates the impropriety of that exception.

UND cannot conceive of a rational explanation for why Central Michigan and Florida State are exempted, but UND is not. CMU and FSU have the documented support of a single namesake tribe. UND has that same documentation, and should receive the same exemption. The only logical conclusion from the denial of the exemption to UND is that the namesake tribe exception was not created as a rational extension of the Policy, but rather as a special exception for a large Division I school. Crafting special exceptions for influential members is a hallmark of bad faith.

[imabison]

OK, let say for instance that "School up north" does win this lawsuit. What would stop the NCAA at that point saying, OK we start at the very beginning and NO COLLEGES will be expempt from using an Indian Logo, or Nickname.

Would the other colleges be really made at that "School up north"?

Then that "School up north" would have truly wasted their time and money. They should back off, start a new beginning, a new division, a new name, a new logo, a breath of fresh air.

Will they, no , time and money will tell.

[broke_back_mnt]

Exactly! That long winded finger pointing is going nowhere and wont get much time in court when the issue is the NCAAs right to manage its own internal affairs. This was a legitimate action on the part of the representaitive NCAA authority. You are the only ones going to court, and Im not sure any of you even know what you want the court to do?

[Sioux1]

OK, let say for instance that "School up north" does win this lawsuit. *What would stop the NCAA at that point saying, OK we start at the very beginning and NO COLLEGES will be expempt from using an Indian Logo, or Nickname.

Would the other colleges be really made at that "School up north"?

Then that "School up north" would have truly wasted their time and money. *They should back off, start a new beginning, a new division, a new name, a new logo, a breath of fresh air. *

Will they, no , *time and money will tell.


I would guess that the other schools would be mad. As far as nicknames being hostile and abusive, it's illogical to think that some are ok and some aren't. Especially when you campare FSU and UND.

So are we supposed to back down and give in to the NCAA. Remember they are calling us abusive and hostile. Those are serious accusations against our school and damages our reputation. Not only could that effect Prospective Native American students but also students from other races.
By changing our nickname our president feels as though nothing would be accomplished. We are already the leading university in the nation when it comes to educating Native Americans. If it's so bad why are they continuing to choose to come to UND.

We do not have a mascot, we have a logo designed by a Native American. We do not have a tomohawk chop or other "stereotypical" cheers. We ocassionaly have an enrolled member of the Sioux nation do an authentic dance prior to an event. We have a zero tolerance for any signs/articles of clothing that may be deemed hostile or abusive.

It's one thing to ban us from competing in an NCAA post season game. It's a whole other issue when they start randomly/arbitrarily labeling our institution as hostile/abusive...

[Sioux1]

Exactly! *That long winded finger pointing is going nowhere and wont get much time in court when the issue is the NCAAs right to manage its own internal affairs. *This was a legitimate action on the part of the representaitive NCAA authority. *You are the only ones going to court, and Im not sure any of you even know what you want the court to do?


We are the only ones so far who is going to court. Remember FSU threatened litigation...even Jeb Bush was ready to get involved...then they got their exemption. Why did they get that exemption? The NCAA has an answer...they'll say because their namesake tribe granted permission...Do you think that the big chunk of change their football team brings to the NCAA had nothing to do with that?

Illinois is still deciding what they want to do. Currently there are state senators in Illinois crafting legislation which states that the NCAA should not be allowed to invovle themselves in state issues...we'll have to stay tuned for that one.

William and Mary is also looking at their options as their "Tribe" logo (Two feathers) has not been removed from the list.

So to say we are the only ones is not an accurate statement.

[broke_back_mnt]

It looks to me that your case is all subjective. All schools currently approved and not on the list can show unquestioned and enthusiastic approval from their tribal sponsors. Und cant do that. Without that approval your hostile and abusive.

[Scooter]

Let's just hope that the Dakota Tribe doesn't get the government to change our state's name. If they do we just might be known as "The State North of the State North of Nebraska State University" and "University of The State North Of the State North of Nebraska" Gotta love political correctness running unchecked.

[Mr._Bill]

It's one thing to ban us from competing in an NCAA post season game. It's a whole other issue when they start randomly/arbitrarily labeling our institution as hostile/abusive...
____


The ncaa is not saying that und is hostile and abusive. They are saying that your logo and your Nickname are hostile and abusive. The semantics need to be clear on both sides of this issue, not just und's.

Why your school wouldn't look at the nickname "Fighting Sioux" and know that your in for trouble is pretty nieve. You will never get off the ncaa list with a name like "Fighting Sioux", as it easily stands out as the worst on this list along with the Fighting Illini. Why und wouldn't have dropped the word fighting right away (and advertised this change) is beyond me. You might have had a slim shot to get off that list if you had changed your name to "Sioux" and had done some good work with the tribes to gain their support for the "Sioux" name. I am confident that und will not be allowed long term to keep the name "fighting sioux", easily the most hostile nickname in name alone.

[Flanders]

Let's just hope that the Dakota Tribe doesn't get the government to change our state's name. If they do we just might be known as "The State North of the State North of Nebraska State University" and "University of The State North Of the State North of Nebraska" Gotta love political correctness running unchecked.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[MplsBison]

Question: why is it that the Chippewa, Ute, Illini, and Seminole have all decided that they're proud to be represented by the state schools but the Sioux aren't?

Why are the Sioux different? Who do they think they are?

[Flanders]

Question: why is it that the Chippewa, Ute, Illini, and Seminole have all decided that they're proud to be represented by the state schools but the Sioux aren't?

Why are the Sioux different? Who do they think they are?

That's the Million Dollar Question.

[insane_ponderer]

I think the million dollar question is still "Who does und think they are?"

You are not entitled to that name, it isn't yours.

[Flanders]

I think the million dollar question is still "Who does und think they are?"

You are not entitled to that name, it isn't yours.



Entitled is a pretty strong word. Who used it? Not me. How do you feel about "Sioux Falls"? "Sioux City"? Cleveland Indians? Bois de Sioux River? Sioux Manufacturing? Warroad Warriors? Fort Berthold Indians? Washington Redskins? Red Lake Warriors? How do you feel about a white college student dressed as an Indian riding a horse and throwing a spear and leading 90,000 in a tomahawk chop?

[broke_back_mnt]

Thats ridiculous. *We are talking about using a nickname, that has been deemed offensive by the NCAA because of no clear support from the Tribes, in NCAA championship sponsored events. *

Comparing that to cultural references outside of the NCAAs governing scope is not relevant. *You listen to your president too much. *He is the worst when it comes to this type of deception.

If you are so offended by the actions of some white college student regarding nickname use, why dont you stand down? *It seems to me your arguing for the right to be hostile and abusive? *

Without clear and enthusiastic support from your Tribal sponsors you are deemed hostile and abusive. *The NCAA will not perpetuate that for you. *Now grow up and stop wasting our money.

[Flanders]

Thats ridiculous. We are talking about using a nickname, that has been deemed offensive by the NCAA because of no clear support from the Tribes, in NCAA championship sponsored events.

Comparing that to cultural references outside of the NCAAs governing scope is not relevant. You listen to your president too much. He is the worst when it comes to this type of deception.

If you are so offended by the actions of some white college student regarding nickname use, why dont you stand down? It seems to me your arguing for the right to be hostile and abusive?

Without clear and enthusiastic support from your Tribal sponsors you are deemed hostile and abusive. The NCAA will not perpetuate that for you. Now grow up and stop wasting our money.

Wow. I don't even know where to begin. My President? Bush? Not sure what you mean there. I didn't go to UND. Hmmm...but I digress. Actually I'm not offended by what takes place at Florida St. That should be pretty obvious to you, but somehow this escapes you. Also, I haven't spent any money. Not sure how I'm wasting any. The common theme of your posts is to attack personally, rather than address ideas.

[kchats]

Question: why is it that the Chippewa, Ute, Illini, and Seminole have all decided that they're proud to be represented by the state schools but the Sioux aren't?

Why are the Sioux different? Who do they think they are?

Maybe it is because those universities actually visited with tribal leaders about the nickname and logo and didn't tell the tribal leaders that you are lucky that we are using your name and likeness for our athletic teams. UND has been very poor in its dealings with the tribes and it has been going on for years. No way the tribes will ever give UND support in this matter. If UND had not caved to Englestad when he said he would walk away if they didn't bring back the actual indian face on the hockey jersey they might have had a better shot. That was a huge slap in the face to the tribes. Yeah the name and image is about you but he has more money so we will go with what he says. I wonder why it isn't supported by the tribes. Hard to understand that huh?

[Flanders]

Question: why is it that the Chippewa, Ute, Illini, and Seminole have all decided that they're proud to be represented by the state schools but the Sioux aren't?

Why are the Sioux different? Who do they think they are?

Maybe it is because those universities actually visited with tribal leaders about the nickname and logo and didn't tell the tribal leaders that you are lucky that we are using your name and likeness for our athletic teams. UND has been very poor in its dealings with the tribes and it has been going on for years. No way the tribes will ever give UND support in this matter. If UND had not caved to Englestad when he said he would walk away if they didn't bring back the actual indian face on the hockey jersey they might have had a better shot. That was a huge slap in the face to the tribes. Yeah the name and image is about you but he has more money so we will go with what he says. I wonder why it isn't supported by the tribes. Hard to understand that huh?


Revising history? Let me get this straight: you live in Kansas City, but you somehow have detailed information regarding private talks between UND and the Spirit Lake Tribe? You like to throw as much stuff against the wall as possible, and then wait to see how much sticks. Also, Engelstad never, ever said anything about "the indan face" on the hockey jersey. Did you just make that up today? Kupchella commissioned a Native American artist, Bennett Brien, to do the painting. It would be refreshing to see a reply that didn't revolve around hate mongering, but I won't hold my breath.

[The_Sicatoka]

UND has had tribal support of Spirit Lake Nation (Resolution A05-01-041) since 2000. The NCAA chooses to ignore this, the official stance of Spirit Lake:


Spirit Lake Council feels that as long as somethign positive comes from this controversy, they are not opposed to keeping the "Fighting Sioux" name and the present Logo at UND.

Now, given how the NCAA went about this (broke their own by-laws), everyone should step back from two words and think about what the NCAA is up to:


USCHO: Because much of your disagreement with the NCAA revolves around how the nickname policy was implemented without membership approval, was there a hope or an expectation that the organization's membership would rein in the executive committee? Did you expect some reaction from the members about how this was done?

Kupchella: I'd hoped that there would be because obviously if the NCAA can do this to us by executive fiat, who knows what the limits of that kind of action would be? The NCAA prides itself on being a bottom-up organization with a great deal of institutional autonomy. I think all the institutions that are members come to their relationship with the NCAA with that understanding. Whether they know it or not, this is a threat to all of us — no matter what your nickname.

The whole interview (http://www.uscho.com/news/id,12630/InterviewUNDPresidentContinuesSearchForANicknameSo lution.html) is a pretty good read, as is Kupchella's letter to the NCAA (http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/openletter_6-07-06.html) explaining how they've put UND in an untenable position and what may have to come of it. Take a few minutes and read maybe the first 20 or so posts in this (http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?t=52968). It documents what else the NCAA is up to. It's a crossroads with how the NCAA does business: Challenge it, or sit back and watch and who knows what could come next.

[broke_back_mnt]

Flanders,

Excuse me, but by you I collectively mean Und.

The vast majority of NCAA members support the nickname issue. The cost is mounting defrending ourselves against your (Unds) selfish position.

[The_Sicatoka]

The cost of any case against the NCAA is funded by private donations. Unless you contributed, JBB, it cost you nothing.

Do nothing in this matter (how the NCAA believes it can operate outside of its own constitution) and it may cost you later.

[broke_back_mnt]

No, Im with the NCAA. This is not private donations. This is cash dues fighting yound. Not sitting well with NCAA members in good standing!

[kchats]

Question: why is it that the Chippewa, Ute, Illini, and Seminole have all decided that they're proud to be represented by the state schools but the Sioux aren't?

Why are the Sioux different? Who do they think they are?

Maybe it is because those universities actually visited with tribal leaders about the nickname and logo and didn't tell the tribal leaders that you are lucky that we are using your name and likeness for our athletic teams. *UND has been very poor in its dealings with the tribes and it has been going on for years. *No way the tribes will ever give UND support in this matter. *If UND had not caved to Englestad when he said he would walk away if they didn't bring back the actual indian face on the hockey jersey they might have had a better shot. *That was a huge slap in the face to the tribes. *Yeah the name and image is about you but he has more money so we will go with what he says. *I wonder why it isn't supported by the tribes. *Hard to understand that huh?


Revising history? *Let me get this straight: *you live in Kansas City, but you somehow have detailed information regarding private talks between UND and the Spirit Lake Tribe? *You like to throw as much stuff against the wall as possible, and then wait to see how much sticks. *Also, Engelstad never, ever said anything about "the indan face" on the hockey jersey. *Did you just make that up today? *Kupchella commissioned a Native American artist, Bennett Brien, to do the painting. *It would be refreshing to see a reply that didn't revolve around hate mongering, but I won't hold my breath.


How about this right from Wickopedia?

Engelstad embroiled himself in the fight over the Fighting Sioux logo when he built a $100 million arena on the University of North Dakota campus for the Fighting Sioux hockey program. Midway in its construction, Engelstad threatened to withdraw his funding if the sports teams were renamed. The logo was then placed in thousands of instances in the arena, making the prospect of removal a costly measure. Later, Engelstad placed the stadium under private (rather than University) management and stipulated that the Fighting Sioux motif be kept indefinitely. An Engelstad family trust continues to own the arena and rents it to the University.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Engelstad

Or this article that specifically refers to the redesigned logo.

http://www.und-fraud.com/UND/Campus/Arena/Engelstad's%20ultimatum.htm

Engelstad's letter also hints that, before his $100 million pledge was announced in December 1998, he was given assurances that the "Fighting Sioux" nickname would stay, and a new team logo designed. University officials have denied making any such promises.

The new logo was unveiled almost a year after Engelstad made his pledge. It is similar to the team symbol of the National Hockey League's Chicago Blackhawks.

"Commitments were made to me by others and yourself," Engelstad wrote in his letter, "regarding the Sioux logo and the Sioux slogan before I started the arena, and after it has been started.

Sorry Flanders maybe someone from Kansas City knows of what he talks. *My only error may have been that he demanded the new logo prior to donating anything toward the arena. *Same deal no matter how you look at it because if they didn't change the logo to the current logo he never would have given any money either. *I'll take my apology without your hate mongering.

Oh yeah Engelstad had alot of respect for Kupchella too read this quote in his letter to Kupchella.

"I surely hoped that it would never come to this, but I guess it has," Engelstad continued. "It is a good thing that you (Kupchella) are an educator, because you are a man of indecision, and if you were a businessman, you would not succeed. You would be broke immediately."

Here is a list of Tribal resolutions opposing the nickname as well. *Enjoy reading them.

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/resolutions.html

[IowaBison]

UND has had tribal support of Spirit Lake Nation (Resolution A05-01-041) since 2000. The NCAA chooses to ignore this, the official stance of Spirit Lake:


Spirit Lake Council feels that as long as somethign positive comes from this controversy, they are not opposed to keeping the "Fighting Sioux" name and the present Logo at UND.



That sounds like an strong endorsement to you?

To me, it says nothing especially since it is conditional and subjective at that.

[Flanders]

Still waiting to hear how you managed to get the details of private talks between UND and the Spirit Lake Tribe. You're on record as having said that you know what was discussed. Please enlighten us.

[IowaBison]

Why don't you quote where I posted that.

?

[Sioux1]

It looks to me that your case is all subjective. *All schools currently approved and not on the list can show unquestioned and enthusiastic approval from their tribal sponsors. *Und cant do that. *Without that approval your hostile and abusive.

Who's the one being subjective. I don't know if I've seen "enthusiastic" support from tribes. In FSU's case their is some disagreement with the Seminole tribe of Oklahoma as whether or not they should allow FSU to continue using it.

BTW is the NCAA going to ask tribes for approval each and every year or does the most recent resolutions stand for life? Tribal council's change as do their opinions. Yet another reason why this should be decided in the courts.

[IowaBison]

Within a few days of the report of the Oklahoma band of Seminole supporting the NCAAs decision, a tribal resolution was passed unanimously in support.

[broke_back_mnt]

It looks to me that your case is all subjective. *All schools currently approved and not on the list can show unquestioned and enthusiastic approval from their tribal sponsors. *Und cant do that. *Without that approval your hostile and abusive.

Who's the one being subjective. *I don't know if I've seen "enthusiastic" support from tribes. *In FSU's case their is some disagreement with the Seminole tribe of Oklahoma as whether or not they should allow FSU to continue using it. *

BTW is the NCAA going to ask tribes for approval each and every year or does the most recent resolutions stand for life? *Tribal council's change as do their opinions. *Yet another reason why this should be decided in the courts.


The only reason this may go to court, and as far as I know nothing has been filed yet, is because of REA. They are forcing Und to make as big a thing out of this as possible. My guess they are forcing this issue and keeping Und from doing whats right.

[Sioux1]

Do you have any proof of these allegations? There are many Alumni, staff, students, and even Native Americans :o who support Kupchella and how the school is handeling the issue. REA may support the continued use of the name, but to say they are the only reason the issue is going to court is a bit presumptive isn't it?

[Flanders]

It looks to me that your case is all subjective. All schools currently approved and not on the list can show unquestioned and enthusiastic approval from their tribal sponsors. Und cant do that. Without that approval your hostile and abusive.

Who's the one being subjective. I don't know if I've seen "enthusiastic" support from tribes. In FSU's case their is some disagreement with the Seminole tribe of Oklahoma as whether or not they should allow FSU to continue using it.

BTW is the NCAA going to ask tribes for approval each and every year or does the most recent resolutions stand for life? Tribal council's change as do their opinions. Yet another reason why this should be decided in the courts.


The only reason this may go to court, and as far as I know nothing has been filed yet, is because of REA. They are forcing Und to make as big a thing out of this as possible. My guess they are forcing this issue and keeping Und from doing whats right.


Quite possibly the most uninformed statement ever on this topic. And that's really saying something.

[broke_back_mnt]

Its pure speculation on my part but it would fit the tactics of REA perfectly. *Unfortunately Und has received a very seious black eye because they operate like that and Und is perfectly willing to be the stooge.

Not uninformed, not even missleading or vastly overstated. *Just a hunch to try and explain the adolesent behavior of Und and many of its fans over this issue that they can not win or even control. *

[sambini]

IS THIS NOT A BISON BOARD. I'M HOPING THEY CAN GET THIS RESOLVED AND MOVE ON .

[kchats]

Here is an interesting part of the article I posted a link to earlier but the link didn't work.

Kupchella had intended to make the decision late last year. In electronic mail messages to board members, he said he was leaning toward an eventual nickname change.

Kupchella was "prepared to outline steps whereby we would cease using the nickname after a period of several years, using the logos in the meantime," he said in a Dec. 16 electronic mail message to Isaacson, the board's president.

"I see no choice but to respect the request by Sioux tribes that we quit using their name," Kupchella wrote in the message. "To do otherwise would pit the university and its president in an untenable position."

I wonder how the NCAA would view that final quote. Sounds like they won't be able to win the lawsuit huh?

[Flanders]

Here is an interesting part of the article I posted a link to earlier but the link didn't work.

Kupchella had intended to make the decision late last year. In electronic mail messages to board members, he said he was leaning toward an eventual nickname change.

Kupchella was "prepared to outline steps whereby we would cease using the nickname after a period of several years, using the logos in the meantime," he said in a Dec. 16 electronic mail message to Isaacson, the board's president.

"I see no choice but to respect the request by Sioux tribes that we quit using their name," Kupchella wrote in the message. "To do otherwise would pit the university and its president in an untenable position."

I wonder how the NCAA would view that final quote. Sounds like they won't be able to win the lawsuit huh?

That statement by Kupchella has absolutely nothing to do with a lawsuit. Do you even know what UND's lawsuit against the NCAA will say? You might want to wait a few more weeks to get some more info. In the meantime, you might also want to take some of the advice of the classy Bison fans on this site and put your UND hate-mongering on the back burner. You're as well-versed on D-1 transition and by-laws as anyone on this board, and that I find insightful. But as soon as UND comes up, a strange alter-ego filled with hate and venom emerges and scares most.

[kchats]

Now you know how all Bison fans and adminstrators felt immediately after the Bison announced their intentions to move up to division I. You never apologized to me for claiming I didn't know what I was talking about with the donation for the arena and the new Indian head logo. It is easy to rip on someone and call them misinformed or a liar but then you don't acknowledge the facts when presented.

[Flanders]

I didn't apologize because you were still wrong. He was still going to donate the money regardless of what logo they were using. It was the nickname that he didn't want changed. He had nothing to do with the new logo painted by American Indian artist, Bennett Brien. Also, for further reference, quoting the "Bridges" group doesn't really further your argument.

[broke_back_mnt]

To disagree with und is to be a hate monger?

Not a good tactic for you to use Flanders.

[Flanders]

You can disagree with UND all you want. But please, have it based on some fact.

[Flanders]

]Its pure speculation on my partbut it would fit the tactics of REA perfectly. Unfortunately Und has received a very seious black eye because they operate like that and Und is perfectly willing to be the stooge.

Not uninformed, not even missleading or vastly overstated. Just a hunch to try and explain the adolesent behavior of Und and many of its fans over this issue that they can not win or even control.

[broke_back_mnt]

You can disagree with UND all you want. *But please, have it based on some fact.


Certainly you mean not just any facts, but YOUR facts, correct?

[Flanders]

You sound like Bill Clinton. Facts are facts. Not mine or yours. Get it?

[broke_back_mnt]

Yea, I get it. You pick and choose your facts to suite yourself. But hey, Kupchella does it all the time. Why not you? ;)

[Flanders]

Yea, I get it. You pick and choose your facts to suite yourself. But hey, Kupchella does it all the time. Why not you? ;)

Once again, I'm not quite sure why you're trying to link me with Kupchella. If you knew me, you wouldn't waste any more time trying to compare me to him. That should be obvious. Secondly, I didn't attend UND.

[broke_back_mnt]

Im sorry Flanders. I guess it is a little careless of me. As a supporter of Und I jumped to the conclusion that you were part of that crowd. As it is I should have said that Dr. Kupchella, President of Und, is very selective about the facts he uses, similar to your self.

[kchats]

I didn't apologize because you were still wrong. *He was still going to donate the money regardless of what logo they were using. *It was the nickname that he didn't want changed. *He had nothing to do with the new logo painted by American Indian artist, Bennett Brien. *Also, for further reference, quoting the "Bridges" group doesn't really further your argument. *

I quoted an article in the Grand Forks Herald. Here is the part of the article that tells you the source: Source: Grand Forks Herald: January 15, 2001 Maybe you can go to your local library in Grand Forks and look up the article on microfilm and print it out. I remember reading about this back when it originally happened in the Grand Forks Herald as well. *The article quoted Engelstad as saying prior to agreeing to donate the arena he demanded the Indian Head logo to be used again and within a year of his demands they had a new Indian Head logo.

What is wrong with this Bridges group you refer to? *Are they against the logo or something? *Which link was to the bridges group? *The one showing the tribal resolutions? *That was just an added bonus for you.

[Sioux1]

Looks like someone in the Big Apple is sticking up for the Sioux Logo...As far as cities go, NYC is quite liberal...not that I want to drag politics into the issue ;)

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolu...ic_fettmann.htm

[BisonBacker]

Looks like someone in the Big Apple is sticking up for the Sioux Logo...As far as cities go, NYC is quite liberal...not that I want to drag politics into the issue ;)

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolu...ic_fettmann.htm

typical sue supporter tries to defend his position and gives a dead link ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[WYOBISONMAN]

Looks like someone in the Big Apple is sticking up for the Sioux Logo...As far as cities go, NYC is quite liberal...not that I want to drag politics into the issue ;)

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolu...ic_fettmann.htm

The NY Post is owned by none other than Rupert Murdock who also owns Fox News Channel.......so I wouldn't consider that paper at all credible....

[BisonMav]

Looks like someone in the Big Apple is sticking up for the Sioux Logo...As far as cities go, NYC is quite liberal...not that I want to drag politics into the issue ;)

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolu...ic_fettmann.htm

The NY Post is owned by none other than Rupert Murdock who also owns Fox News Channel.......so I wouldn't consider that paper at all credible....


Getting a little political guys :( :-[ :-/

[mikelsch]

This whole nickname issue is about politics

[verk62]

Looks like someone in the Big Apple is sticking up for the Sioux Logo...As far as cities go, NYC is quite liberal...not that I want to drag politics into the issue ;)

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolu...ic_fettmann.htm

The NY Post is owned by none other than Rupert Murdock who also owns Fox News Channel.......so I wouldn't consider that paper at all credible....



I don't care who owns the newspaper, they all have lost credibility. Any news story I read I try to look past the story to find the truth, the newspapers, editors, and reporters have all become a huge joke.

I can understand why some would not agree with UND fight to keep the name a logo, but I never realized so many Bison fans let the hate they have for UND cloud judgement and reason. I guess I shouldn't be surprised though because most Sioux fans are the same way.

[BisonMav]

This whole nickname issue is about politics

I mean political in the liberal/conservative, Dem/Rep context, not the PC aspect of the Sioux nickname.