Shortfall up North

[Bison_Dan]

There's a thread on siouxsports about und's budget shortfall being as high as $850,000 for 2006. Don't have any facts on that just what is being posted. I hope Gene has tight rein on our budget. I think that womens hockey is just killing them over there.

[IowaBisonToo]

There's a thread on siouxsports about und's budget shortfall being as high as $850,000 for 2006. *Don't have any facts on that just what is being posted. *I hope Gene has tight rein on our budget. *I think that womens hockey is just killing them over there. *
Ya think so????? :-[

[BisonBacker]

I'm not going to be concerned about their budget and as you say just hope that our financial house is in order. I suspect the legislators in Bismark as well as the NDBOHE will be watching all of this very closely especially given the recent events. I will say that the problems up North are not suprising and I don't understand the though process going on up there. Either way as the saying goes better them then us.

[broke_back_mnt]

Right now I think what they are doing is reactionary. With a short fall near $1 million and their president announcing a few months ago that things have now changed so they can move all sports to D1 you have to wonder. What has changed that would make it look better for them?

They did one internal study that was supposed to be fact finding, not decision making, but what else? I dont see how they can possibly have a handle on the situation. NDSU did 2 years of study covering all the bases.

Im not a taxpayer in North Dakota but if I were I would be raising an eyebrow.

[BisonBacker]

Right now I think what they are doing is reactionary. *With a short fall near $1 million and their president announcing a few months ago that things have now changed so they can move all sports to D1 you have to wonder. *What has changed that would make it look better for them? *

They did one internal study that was supposed to be fact finding, not decision making, but what else? *I dont see how they can possibly have *a handle on the situation. *NDSU did 2 years of study covering all the bases.

Im not a taxpayer in North Dakota but if I were I would be raising an eyebrow.

Don't think they are not raising eyebrows on this not only in Bismark but elsewhere. I suspect when folks start pointing fingers and asking questions you won't see alot of people lining up to answer them but only hear crickets chirping. It's easy to talk about how your going to do this and your going to do that but when it comes time to pay for it is when the real $_ _ _ is going to hit the fan. On the other hand he (kup o jello) did leave himself an out when it comes to making the move. I don't think that will happen however, My prediction is he's gone before that and will leave the mess for someone else to clean up, namely the taxpayers.

[TaTonka_31]

I would think it is the best interest of NDSU for UND to stay solvent or we will hear that crazy talk about combining schools again.

Even though it is a bitter pill for the folks at UND to take that they are mired in DII. With the emphasis and money they have to put into Mens and Womens hockey, it may be best for them to stay DII afterall and make the best of it.

Downward trends in enrollment can't make the move any easier either.

[IowaBisonToo]

Yeah, were is all this money that UND shoul be raking in with all their doctor and lawyer friends/alumni? It seems to me they should be able to pull UND out the red with the donations they should be able to make to give back to the great learning institution that is UND and it's professional schools. Problem is, when you're in law school and/or med school, you don't have much time for anything else than book learnin'. On a night when the hockey team is playing in town, most of the professional students are in the library studying.

[roadwarrior]

Yeah, were is all this money that UND shoul be raking in with all their doctor and lawyer friends/alumni? *

Apparently it is going to the NCAA lawsuit fund.

[tony]

I thought we had our own deficit to worry about at NDSU?

Besides, this is a rumored deficit up at UND.
Here's what I know as fact:

1. When Buning took over, UND's athletic department was in debt but nobody would say (or ask) how big the debt was.
2. UND was projecting a $680k debt by the end of 2005-06.

If that's the case, the $850k probably means that they are expecting to go into debt by another $170k, not that they are losing $850k a year.

Who the heck knows though? I'd just urge a little caution... NDSU's was projecting a loss that makes $170k look pretty small just 12 months ago.

[MinotBison]

There's a thread on siouxsports about und's budget shortfall being as high as $850,000 for 2006. *Don't have any facts on that just what is being posted. *I hope Gene has tight rein on our budget. *I think that womens hockey is just killing them over there. *

I have every confidence that he does.

What portion of that 850K deficit can be put at the doorstep of women's hockey? Since I'm pretty sure they can't drop that program, where else can they cut to try and make things balance?

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have some numbers on how much $$$$$$$ the Sioux Booster Club raised in recent years?

[Bisonguy]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have some numbers on how much $$$$$$$ the Sioux Booster Club raised in recent years?






Historically, they've raised more than Team Makers. I believe the first year Team Makers raised $1MM, the Fighting Sioux Club raised $1.4MM. I would guess they're up somwhere around $1.5-2MM now.

[MinotBison]

Someone help me out here. Wasn't there a post or a link not long ago regarding expenses and revenues for each of the programs at UND as well as NDSU?

[Bisonguy]

Someone help me out here. Wasn't there a post or a link not long ago regarding expenses and revenues for each of the programs at UND as well as *NDSU?


Probably the Office of Postsecondary Education site- http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

Not every sport is broken out on that site, but you can get a good idea of overall budget numbers (as well as primary sports, such as football and basketball).

[Dakota]

I would think it is the best interest of NDSU for UND to stay solvent or we will hear that crazy talk about combining schools again.

Even though it is a bitter pill for the folks at UND to take that they are mired in DII. With the emphasis and money they have to put into Mens and Womens hockey, it may be best for them to stay DII afterall and make the best of it. *

Downward trends in enrollment can't make the move any easier either.
Where's Ol' Bill's Merger Mania when you need it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IowaBison]

Im not a taxpayer in North Dakota but if I were I would be raising an eyebrow.

If I were a faculty member I'd demand either Bunning or Kupchella's butt.

They projected last fall they'd be 700k off and took small steps that they knew wouldn't solve the problem.

No other campus department gets that degree of flexibility. Imagine the English Department coming up to a university administrator with those kinds of numbers!

[IowaBison]

Someone help me out here. Wasn't there a post or a link not long ago regarding expenses and revenues for each of the programs at UND as well as NDSU?


straight from the horse's mouth (ass?) :)

http://www.und.edu/president/taskforce.html

[Dakota]

ONE AND ONE EQUALING SOMETHING MORE THAN TWO SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT SOLUTION FOR BOTH CAMPUSES AS WELL AS A GREAT EFFICIENCY EXAMPLE FOR THE GREAT STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA AND THE ENTIRE COUNTRY FOR THAT MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[broke_back_mnt]

What a budget deficit means is that more was spent than budgeted for the current cycle. *It may or may not end up as debt. *The difference may have been as much as $850,000. *This was an unpleasant surprise for them. *

NDSU, if I remember correctly, forecast deficits as we made the transition but studies indicated there was enough potential in our market to eventually cover all costs. *Our latest shorfall was covered by an influx of cash. *I dont know where it came from but apparently it was a donation.

At any rate the explanation for the und shortfall has been provided by old starry eyes himself *:


star2city
Yesterday, 01:13 PM

There can be a number of reasons why the athletic budget shortfall can increase that has nothing to do with normal day-to-day operations of the athletic department.

For instance, the athletic budget likely includes the cost of the consulting firm for assessing long-term facility needs. If an architectural fee is also tentatively included for an indoor practice facility, that would also distort the true operating budget. If a building like a indoor practice center is later approved by the state board, many upfront costs (like architecture) would then be capitalized and the "deficit" would be adjusted lower (or eliminated) after the building's approval.

It is like Iowabison claiming that the REA budget had a million dollar shortfall which required an infusion of a million dollar "gift". But during the same time period, it was known that a large gifts were given to the REA finish the Betty in granite and leather like the main Ralph arena.

It's easy to jump to conclusions if the whole picture is not understood.


There, that explains it all. *Nothing to worry about. *Apparently most of the deficit will be capitalized later. *So its just a series of one time charges that will be converted to capital assests when the time is right but for now they will count them as operating expenses, I guess? ;D

*I corrected the spelling

[IowaBison]

Nothing to worry about? Really?

That is nothing but sheer baloney on both your part and star2city's (I don't see the need of bringing the post from another site onto this one).

The difference won't be debt, it will be covered by the University-and that money has to come from somewhere.

Kupchella has stated publicly that he wants the athletic department to be self-supporting. That's a bold proposition for any insititution, but given that UND was nearly 1 million dollars short that obviously isn't the goal of the athletic department!!!

What's equally bad is that they started last year expecting to be $700,000 short. I can't see how they cannot consider serious restructuring.

As I stated previously, no other department on a campus would get that kind of flexibility. If most other departments being off less than $10,000 someone would would surely get their butts chewed, over that amount someone would probably be fired.

Athletics is a slightly different beast, but they are off nearly one million bucks! Given comments out of Grand Forks the only plan is try and spend their way out the problem by going DI.


This is a serious issue that UND has to deal with, it can't be swept under a rug.

[BisonBacker]

Maybe FEMA can be brought in for an influx of cash after all it is an emergency ;D ;D
Oh wait forget that they already tried that and got their collective greedy hands slapped. ;D

[SDSUFAN]

Looking at Exhibit 13B which shows revenues and expenses by sport and total there is a little over 200k deficit and the report says for fiscal year 2005. So the horse mouth has not spoken for fiscal 2006. What I dont understand is why with a winning football program and great crowds, revenues do not cover all expenses for fiscal 2005 for a sport like football. Could the City of Grand Forks be living off of UND? Its time for Cup of Jello to wake up and smell the coffee.



PROJECTED TOTAL REVENUES AND EXPENSES FISCAL YEAR
2005

revenue * * expenses * *difference
men 6,715,069.00 6,258,710.00 456,359.00
woment 1,692,951.00 2,359,898.00 (666,947.00)

totals 8,408,020.00 8,618,608.00 (210,588.00)


football 1,548,902.00 1,558,046.00 (9,144.00)

These figured do include men and women hockey which reflect about 800k excess margins for men hockey and and about 260k deficit for women's hockey.

Just judging from a cursory review of the full UND report, UND appears to have borrowed a Carr Report from NDSU or SDSU and tried to follow the format. The problem here and at USD, is that internal people are doing the review and often they unintentionally can over look things often they may have less than objective observations. That is why Carr is well worth the 30k that he charges.

[IowaBison]

I wouldn't venture down the path you are, SDSUFAN.

It is very difficult to get an accurate picture of an athletic department's numbers presented this way.

An athletic department has significant leeway in defining what revenues and expenses to attribute to each sport.

In the case of UND, their football program may be near breakeven according to their books while much of the alumni and institutional support (which usually goes into a big pot) is given with that sports in mind.

(Also, those are projected 2005 numbers.)

[IowaBison]

To put this in perspective, the $850,000 UND is supposedly short is DOUBLE the amount UNO reported earlier this summer. This made very big news in Nebraska and throughout the Upper Great Plains sports community.


I doubt that UND's books will get any news in the media (which I do understand).

[broke_back_mnt]

Quotes from another board are as good as any source, and I like to quote my sources. Just because I thought the explanation was ridiculous doesn't make it any more or less appropriate.

[Dakota]

Quotes from another board are as good as any source, and I like to quote my sources. *Just because I thought the explanation was ridiculous doesn't make it any more or less appropriate. *
Stand your ground JBB this is the LAND OF THE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[BisonBacker]

To put this in perspective, the $850,000 UND is supposedly short is DOUBLE the amount UNO reported earlier this summer. *This made very big news in Nebraska and throughout the Upper Great Plains sports community.


I doubt that UND's books will get any news in the media (which I do understand).

This is a legitimate point NorthDakotaBison points out and a good question as to why the media isn't asking any questions about it. It seems the Forum was to preoccupied with covering the Potts Chapman story and this just isn't getting any ink. If its as some would like to have us believe (no big deal) then why not check it out and write about it accordingly? Is this a hornets nest waiting to be uncovered or what? I understand that with UNO its one person who's really raised the red flag with their budget, don't we have one person in ND who is interested in seeing the whole picture?

[Swaghook]

They probably figure the state will bail them out. And with a $526 million dollar surplus in the state tax coffers, they probably will be. :-/

[IowaBison]

This is a legitimate point NorthDakotaBison points out and a good question as to why the media isn't asking any questions about it. It seems the Forum was to preoccupied with covering the Potts Chapman story and this just isn't getting any ink. If its as some would like to have us believe (no big deal) then why not check it out and write about it accordingly? Is this a hornets nest waiting to be uncovered or what? I understand that with UNO its one person who's really raised the red flag with their budget, don't we have one person in ND who is interested in seeing the whole picture?

The catch is that the bad news would seriously damage the media outlet's relationship with UND.

As a result, I don't see anyone investigating it too deeply.

You could try contacting the Forum Sports Dept. but I'm fairly confident they would give a 'well worded' explanation of why they haven't and probably won't look into the matter.

At the same time, NDSU has come up short itself from time to time and could again. An investigation would really open up Pandora's Box.

[MinotBison]

At the same time, NDSU has come up short itself from time to time and could again. *An investigation would really open up Pandora's Box.[/quote]

How short, and when did this happen?

[Hammersmith]

At the same time, NDSU has come up short itself from time to time and could again. *An investigation would really open up Pandora's Box.

How short, and when did this happen?

I think he might be refering to 2004-05 when NDSU's athletic department was running a small deficit. I believe it was less than $50,000 and it was covered by a single benefactor. It's also the reason why NDSU's revenues and expenses are exactly the same that year($7,688,488) on the OPE website. http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

[SDSUFAN]

I wouldn't venture down the path you are, SDSUFAN.

It is very difficult to get an accurate picture of an athletic department's numbers presented this way.

An athletic department has significant leeway in defining what revenues and expenses to attribute to each sport.

In the case of UND, their football program may be near breakeven according to their books while much of the alumni and institutional support (which usually goes into a big pot) is given with that sports in mind.

(Also, those are projected 2005 numbers.)

The projected numbers were from the D1 study and they would have almost had to have used actual numbers to assemble this data for Cup of Jello.
and the committee studying the D1 issue. They are lost with out Carr and Associates.
I love that nick name BTW.(Cup of Jello) :)

I am old enough to have witnessed the rise of Bison Football starting to in 1963 after the Bison went 0-10 under Bob Danielson. *Only the old guys would know that Bob Danielson was a very capable assistant of Ralph Ginn at SDSU. *He was hired away to be the head coach at NDSU, which was before 1964, a very much an underfunded program. It was not his coaching, but the state of affairs in general. BTW, your president after firing Danielsen made a committment to having a winning program and went after the Fargo-Moorhead business sector. Something that had not been done by the prior president who hired Danielsen.

None the less after 1964, there was a very positive cash flow for NDSU from football. Maybe it was because the home games were played at Dakota Field and NDSU did not have to share revenue with the City of Fargo or anyone else as they do now. Since 1964 NDSU has had the best in coaches for most of this time. Yes there have been a failure or two, but also they seem to have the best equipment and everything needed in the sport of football. Why isnt the same happening at UND after winning one D2 and being contention for several years? I believe there are revenue bonds for the Aleurus center that have to be retired. Is the football ticket revenue going towards that purpose? They should be having a positive cash flow as well, but the numbers do not reflect that at all. If I were *a UND booster, I would want to know why.

If SDSU can come up with an even number of home games and get 8 to 9 wins in two or more consective seasons, you will see a completely different program than you have seen at SDSU. Winning without a question brings the butts in the seats.

[imabison]

At the same time, NDSU has come up short itself from time to time and could again. An investigation would really open up Pandora's Box.

How short, and when did this happen?

I think he might be refering to 2004-05 when NDSU's athletic department was running a small deficit. I believe it was less than $50,000 and it was covered by a single benefactor. It's also the reason why NDSU's revenues and expenses are exactly the same that year($7,688,488) on the OPE website. http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp


But NDSU never actually came up short because someone made the donation. That school up north is not covered by a donation, it CAME up short.

[SDSUFAN]

Just judging from statements in the press by your AD, I doubt very much there is any kind of a deficit to speak of. Gene Taylor seems very capable who has open communication with all of his head coaches. I dont think any of your coaches have went over budget. If the communication is good and the coaches know all the details of their budget, they are not going to make a committment or obligation that would get NDSU or themselves in trouble. I suppose there are always a few unforeseen circumstances.

Up North, I really wonder what kind of controlls Roger Thomas had. He may have left a mess that their current guy is now trying to untangle. I can see where some head coaches may have made some committments and spent money thinking that the Ralph money would cover their butts. Maybe the money from the Ralph was not there to begin with. I think UND is very complicated at this point since the REA is run by a company representlng the Ralph Englstad estate. It gets very complicated and thats why I printed off all the offical reports, that took a whole ream of paper. Plus I would love to see a full disclosure of the relationship of the City of Grand Forks and UND relating to their use of the ALerus Center for home football games.

Time to do some googles. ;)

[IowaBison]

At the same time, NDSU has come up short itself from time to time and could again. An investigation would really open up Pandora's Box.

How short, and when did this happen?

I think he might be refering to 2004-05 when NDSU's athletic department was running a small deficit. I believe it was less than $50,000 and it was covered by a single benefactor. It's also the reason why NDSU's revenues and expenses are exactly the same that year($7,688,488) on the OPE website. http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

What you are referring to is a Team Makers specific event where a benefactor made up a relatively small deficit in fundraising.

[IowaBison]

That school up north is not covered by a donation, it CAME up short.

But that's not the big deal in my book UND has general funds to cover the difference-that will come from students and taxpayers. (Anybody else think it's a coincidence that UND is floating around the idea of adding a $100 DI fee?-the students and taxpayers are already paying it, why not make it official!).

1. It's that Kupchella has stated he wanted an athletic department that breaks even.

2. It's that UND has stated that it is going division I.

3. (Actually the #1 in my book) is that there so many people oblivious to the state of UND's athletic department and that when they hear bad news they don't take it like they should. If I was a UND booster or employee I'd be absolutely pissed. However, no one I've mentioned it to seems to care.

[BisonBacker]

That school up north is not covered by a donation, it CAME up short.

But that's not the big deal in my book UND has general funds to cover the difference-that will come from students and taxpayers. *(Anybody else think it's a coincidence that UND is floating around the idea of adding a $100 DI fee?-the students and taxpayers are already paying it, why not make it official!).

1. *It's that Kupchella has stated he wanted an athletic department that breaks even.

2. *It's that UND has stated that it is going division I.

3. (Actually the #1 in my book) is that there so many people oblivious to the state of UND's athletic department and that when they hear bad news they don't take it like they should. *If I was a UND booster or employee I'd be absolutely pissed. *However, no one I've mentioned it to seems to care.

I think that is a key comment in your post. I'll be the first to admit that if the shoe was on the other foot and we were still DII and they had moved first I would be ticked off and hoping that we made the move. However that is not the case and even more importantly we have made the move and are doing so without having to put the financial burden on any one group ie the students or the taxpayer. We also made the move because it was what was right for NDSU and the FM area can support it. The same cannot be said for und and gf. The move was made for one reason and one reason only and kup o jello so much as said it in his email that got out a couple of years ago. Something to the effect that "he hated to see NDSU move ahead of und in any way" (that quote isnt verbatim but it was pretty much to that effect. I think NDSU long ago moved ahead of und but in his mind it wasn't the case but I he definetly thinks so now since we have moved on without them. That my friends is about as simply put as it can be. They are jealous of NDSU's success in the move and don't want to be left behind. Too bad though as that has already happened and kuppy will be the one who will go down on record as being the leader (using the term loosely here) of und at the time they fell way off.

[GFBisonFan]

Yeah, were is all this money that UND shoul be raking in with all their doctor and lawyer friends/alumni? *It seems to me they should be able to pull UND out the red with the donations they should be able to make to give back to the great learning institution that is UND and it's professional schools. *Problem is, when you're in law school and/or med school, you don't have much time for anything else than book learnin'. *On a night when the hockey team is playing in town, most of the professional students are in the library studying.
actually all money goes to NDSU :)

[BisonBacker]

Ok so I took the bait and had to go over to ss.com ( I showered immediately afterwards) and wow talk about completely destroying the messanger over there. The guy who brought it up is getting grilled. I think if they could find him they would tar and feather him and then run him out of town on a rail. I just chuckeled and got out. This whole thing for them I think is going to get real ugly in a hurry.
1. Already at DII and in the red big time.
2. Increased costs to move up = even bigger defecit.
3. Conference affilitation issues look bleak.
4. University is looking at a legal battle with the NCAA = more $$$ down the drain
5. University president who wants the move to happen about as much as any of us want a root canal.
6. City the size of Grand Forks expected to sustain a DI university?

Dam its good to be a Bison.

[IowaBison]

I'm officially done posting over there.

My primary interest in collegiate athletics is organization, finance, and decision-making. I followed with interest a number of developments at UND and received a great of criticism (none of which I really minded).

However, their total lack of concern over the budget shortfall and attack of sioux goo made me realize that they as posters do not have any interest in collegial discourse over any subject that may cast negative dispersions over their favorite athletic department.

[IowaBison]

Also, how bleak is their conference outlook?


Imagine if NDSU and SDSU joined the Gateway (I put this at less than 50-50 even after WKU leaves)-

It would be entirely possible for them to have no conference for any of their sports, save hockey.


I don't wish a fate that bad on anybody.

[IowaBison]

After realizing they were projecting a $680,000 budget shortfall....

UND let five staff members go saving $250,000

told all sports to operate at 90% of their finalized budget


and they still end up at $850k over?


also how does one end up three months into a fiscal year 15% over budget?

do the folks in Grand Forks understand what a budget it?

[BisonBacker]

After realizing they were projecting a $680,000 budget shortfall....

UND let five staff members go saving $250,000

told all sports to operate at 90% of their finalized budget


and they still end up at $850k over?


also how does one end up three months into a fiscal year 15% over budget?

do the folks in Grand Forks understand what a budget it?

NorthDakotaBison don't worry about it that star2city guy has it all figured out ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[skypilot]

After realizing they were projecting a $680,000 budget shortfall....

UND let five staff members go saving $250,000

told all sports to operate at 90% of their finalized budget


and they still end up at $850k over?


also how does one end up three months into a fiscal year 15% over budget?

do the folks in Grand Forks understand what a budget it?

NorthDakotaBison don't worry about it that star2city guy has it all figured out ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

[Bisonguy]

Ok so I took the bait and had to go over to ss.com ( I showered immediately afterwards) and wow talk about completely destroying the messanger over there. *The guy who brought it up is getting grilled. *I think if they could find him they would tar and feather him and then run him out of town on a rail. *I just chuckeled and got out. *This whole thing for them I think is going to get real ugly in a hurry. *
1. Already at DII and in the red big time.
2. Increased costs to move up = even bigger defecit.
3. Conference affilitation issues look bleak.
4. University is looking at a legal battle with the NCAA = more $$$ down the drain
5. University president who wants the move to happen about as much as any of us want a root canal.
6. City the size of Grand Forks expected to sustain a DI university? *

Dam its good to be a Bison.

You have to keep in mind that Grand Forks' unofficial motto is, "The city where the cart is placed before the horse!".

The recent soul-selling for the CanadInn hotel (once completed, about the size of the Ramada in Fargo) only confirms this.

[Tatanka]

That school up north is not covered by a donation, it CAME up short.

But that's not the big deal in my book UND has general funds to cover the difference-that will come from students and taxpayers. *(Anybody else think it's a coincidence that UND is floating around the idea of adding a $100 DI fee?-the students and taxpayers are already paying it, why not make it official!).

1. *It's that Kupchella has stated he wanted an athletic department that breaks even.

2. *It's that UND has stated that it is going division I.

3. (Actually the #1 in my book) is that there so many people oblivious to the state of UND's athletic department and that when they hear bad news they don't take it like they should. *If I was a UND booster or employee I'd be absolutely pissed. *However, no one I've mentioned it to seems to care.

I think that is a key comment in your post. *I'll be the first to admit that if the shoe was on the other foot and we were still DII and they had moved first I would be ticked off and hoping that we made the move. *However that is not the case and even more importantly we have made the move and are doing so without having to put the financial burden on any one group ie the students or the taxpayer. *We also made the move because it was what was right for NDSU and the FM area can support it. *The same cannot be said for und and gf. *The move was made for one reason and one reason only and kup o jello so much as said it in his email that got out a couple of years ago. *Something to the effect that "he hated to see NDSU move ahead of und in any way" (that quote isnt verbatim but it was pretty much to that effect. *I think NDSU long ago moved ahead of und but in his mind it wasn't the case but I he definetly thinks so now since we have moved on without them. *That my friends is about as simply put as it can be. *They are jealous of NDSU's success in the move and don't want to be left behind. *Too bad though as that has already happened and kuppy will be the one who will go down on record as being the leader (using the term loosely here) of und at the time they fell way off. *

Actually, the quote you reference is from a letter from jello to a group of UND boosters discussing reasons they weren't going to move up to D-I. The quote below IS verbatim (taken directly from the letter). I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment...

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

[cabis]

If you go back and look at some of the threads regarding the costs of the Div 1 move it is usually amusing and occasionally a bit frightening. The one that amazed me the most is the July 30 GF herald article that listed NDSU's budget at 6.2 million in 03-04, 8.8 million in 05-06 and 9.5 million in 06-07 and then stating the cost is just over 2 million. Nice math. This is public information and yet you still hear people saying the cost is only about a million.
Even at the 9.5 million number NDSU is not yet fully funded. The transitional period is five years for a reason and I would bet that the NDSU budget is over 10 million by the final year.
College athletics is an emotional issue but if I were a ND tax payer or UND student I would hope that someone would hire a math major to help with some of this arithmetic.

[lakesbison]

LOOK for a indepth story on this by SOME local media.. a lil birdie told me!!

IT"S ABOUT TIME!!!

Time to show what a fraud UND & it's admin is, and how ND taxpayers & UND students are gonna be asked to foot the bill for D1 move..

ha ha ha... *evil laugh*

[BisonBacker]

LOOK for a indepth story on this by SOME local media.. a lil birdie told me!!
IT"S ABOUT TIME!!!

Time to show what a fraud UND & it's admin is, and how ND taxpayers & UND students are gonna be asked to foot the bill for D1 move..

ha ha ha... *evil laugh*

I hope thats true and if so the reporters don't throw them a bunch of softballs but ask the tough questions. Folks/taxpayers deserve to know the truth.

[SDbison]

All I really know is the "SIOUX SUCK"! Haven't heard or said that for a while......now I feel much better!

[BisBison]

All I really know is the "SIOUX SUCK"! *Haven't heard or said that for a while......now I feel much better!

++++++++++++++++++++++

[Bisonguy]

LOOK for a indepth story on this by SOME local media.. a lil birdie told me!!

IT"S ABOUT TIME!!!

Time to show what a fraud UND & it's admin is, and how ND taxpayers & UND students are gonna be asked to foot the bill for D1 move..

ha ha ha... *evil laugh*



I wonder if Joel Heitkamp will have anything on his (ratings tanking), "News and Views" on KFGO.

He sure seemed to be chomping at the bit to get a look at NDSU's budget when NDSU announced the move to DI. Now, he seems a lot less enthusiastic for the same inquiry about UND's budget ::) :-?

[BisonBacker]

Who's Joel Heitwhoever? I don't listen to that garbage so I guess I will just have to go by what you say BisonGuy but if he's a susie grad your barking up the wrong tree their. They don't want this funding dilema exposed which is why I won't be holding my breath on any expose by any local stations either. When it comes to questioning the financing of the proposed move by the wannabe's to the north they (the folks up north) will only say it's a witch hunt on the part of anyone questioning the move.

[Bisonguy]

Who's Joel Heitwhoever? *I don't listen to that garbage so I guess I will just have to go by what you say BisonGuy but if he's a susie grad your barking up the wrong tree their. *They don't want this funding dilema exposed which is why I won't be holding my breath on any expose by any local stations either. *When it comes to questioning the financing of the proposed move by the wannabe's to the north they (the folks up north) will only say it's a witch hunt on the part of anyone questioning the move.

Yeah, Joel is a UND fan. He's also a ND state senator, who was the one inquiring about the whole Potts/Chapman hulabaloo, and one of those wanting to know where NDSU's money was going to come from for the DI move.

He was the replacement for Ed Schultz on "News and Views", and the show has since gone from the top-ranked local radio show to an also-ran.

[BisonBacker]

Who's Joel Heitwhoever? *I don't listen to that garbage so I guess I will just have to go by what you say BisonGuy but if he's a susie grad your barking up the wrong tree their. *They don't want this funding dilema exposed which is why I won't be holding my breath on any expose by any local stations either. *When it comes to questioning the financing of the proposed move by the wannabe's to the north they (the folks up north) will only say it's a witch hunt on the part of anyone questioning the move.

Yeah, Joel is a UND fan. He's also a ND state senator, who was the one inquiring about the whole Potts/Chapman hulabaloo, and one of those wanting to know where NDSU's money was going to come from for the DI move.

He was the replacement for Ed Schultz on "News and Views", and the show has since gone from the top-ranked local radio show to an also-ran.

My comments were Cynical, I know who he is but I don't listen to him. *I would rather listen to *What's cooking with Lynn Nichols and believe me that's torture in itself. *But as far as any reporting on the financial aspects of the proposed move by our neighbors to the north we really haven't seen any objective reporting on that front from any of the local media. *Don't know if they are afraid to bring it up given the recent events with the equitable funding issues facing the SBOHE. *Does the local media feel like the public will view it as a witch hunt? *All along I was hoping they (und) would stay where they were but now I really don't care but I would like to see how it will affect the rest of the universities in the state and if the self appointed golden child university up north feels they should be entitled to even more disparity in funding at the expense of the rest of the university system after they make this move that by the current figures they are reporting is one they can ill afford. *So how long will it take for them to come up with some excuse to ask for more money to actually cover the move to DI but in their mind the reason won't haven anything to do with or won't include the move to DI? *All the questions that were posed to NDSU by all the naysayers should now be asked of und and its supporters. *Some will say they have and maybe they have but the answers are still forthcoming and the media apparently does not mind that they haven't been answered. * For me I'll just enjoy this ride NDSU is on and watch the university up north hang themselves with their own rope. *Now where's a tall tree when you need one ;)

Edited/Spell checked at the request of Rocko aka Dakota :D

[broke_back_mnt]

A broke D1 und would be perfect. Next best thing to a D2 und. They will have both a fiscal shortfall and a scoring shortfall very soon. I dont know if this story will get the attention it deserves but und has been repremanded for imporper accounting of the dstrubution of state funds more than once in the past. Its just another measure of the institutions character.

Please Mid Con take NDSU and please BSC or some other conglomeration of scheduling allies take und if they do move.

[BisonBacker]

A broke D1 und would be perfect. *Next best thing to a D2 und. *They will have both a fiscal shortfall and a scoring shortfall very soon. *I dont know if this story will get the attention it deserves but und has been repremanded for imporper accounting of the dstrubution of state funds more than once in the past. *Its just another measure of the institutions character.

Please Mid Con take NDSU and please BSC or some other conglomeration of scheduling allies take und if they do move. * *

I don't understand how you can in one thread want to keep NDSU in the GWFC knowing that these fools from up North may well end up in it and yet on here say this? Don't get me wrong I agree with your opinions here but certainly not in the other thread. I want to distance ourselves from these people as much as possilbe. I have no time for the whioux. Don't care what happens to them just leave us out of it.

[broke_back_mnt]

Did you read my post wrong (again)?

Im not sure I know what your talking about. The reality is probably und in the GWFC. If you read their board its und some canadian school and Denver into the BSC. If they go to the BSC they will not be in the GWFC.

I am in favor of NDSU in the Mid Con/GWFC.

[BisonBacker]

Did you read my post wrong (again)?

Im not sure I know what your talking about. *The reality is probably und in the GWFC. *If you read their board its und some canadian school and Denver into the BSC. *If they go to the BSC they will not be in the GWFC.

I am in favor of NDSU in the Mid Con/GWFC.

No I didn't read you post wrong either time. You apparently don't understand that the likelyhood of them getting into the BSC isn't very good Canadian schools or not it doesn't matter. The BSC isn't going to want anything to do with them no matter how delusional they are up north it just isn't going to happen. So that leaves us with a 5 member GWFC and und knocking on the door. It's pretty black and white I believe and I just don't want anything to do with them. End of Story.

[broke_back_mnt]

I don't understand how you can in one thread want to keep NDSU in the GWFC knowing that these fools from up North may well end up in it and yet on here say this? *.....

I guess I dont know what my comment had to do with your statement, thats all. *Its obvious we agree. *

If they do apply to the GWFC I dont give them much chance of entry because of the naming issue. *No conference is going to admit a school that cant host playoff games or use their nickname in playoff games. *

They are in violation of NCAA policy and that is the price they are paying. *They may not even be able to get into D1 and that is probably why they delayed their application a year. *They are worried about the issue and hope it will be resolved by then.

They may have other budgetary issues here at home as well. *This shortfall may loom very large in their future plans. *One of the great anti-D1 arguments from their president (please see smack thread) has been the issue of diverting funds from a Universities main goal of educating and putting it into expensive D1 athletics. *He even made a modest proposal concerning this. *Now it would appear his university is going to divert millions from the main objective to athletics. *A great leader would not lead into a trap that they have already identified. *

The und move may not happen if all that has been speculated in this thread is true.

[BisonBacker]

I don't understand how you can in one thread want to keep NDSU in the GWFC knowing that these fools from up North may well end up in it and yet on here say this? *.....

I guess I dont know what my comment had to do with your statement, thats all. *Its obvious we agree. *

If they do apply to the GWFC I dont give them much chance of entry because of the naming issue. *No conference is going to admit a school that cant host playoff games or use their nickname in playoff games. *

They are in violation of NCAA policy and that is the price they are paying. *They may not even be able to get into D1 and that is probably why they delayed their application a year. *They are worried about the issue and hope it will be resolved by then.

They may have other budgetary issues here at home as well. *This shortfall may loom very large in their future plans. *One of the great arguments from their president (please see smack thread) has been the issue of diverting funds from a Universities main goal of educating and putting it into expensive D1 athletics. *He even made a modest proposal concerning this. *Now it would appear his university is going to divert millions from the main objective to athletics. *A great leader would not lead into a trap that they have already identified. *

The und move may not happen if all that has been speculated in this thread is true.


I think they will make the move no matter what happens, I also think kup o jello will be gone soon and he doesn't care since he will just leave the mess for someone else to deal with. He is no leader that has been proven time and time again. Most likely the reason he didn't get the last job he applied for.

[broke_back_mnt]

To make the move they have to put up $25,000 non refundable. *Then their application is reviewed by a board of directors. *They must be in compliance with all DI rules and policies, *I believe its called the Principal of Rules Compliance. *If the board accepts the application they are in the transition. *At the end of the transition, if the Board approves, their membership will be voted on at large by all existing members. *

Its not up to any school to decide to move up, thats up to D1. *All the school can do is put up $25,000 and hope.

My guess is, if the money issue doesnt derail them, that they wont make application until the naming issue is taken care of.

[kchats]

I emailed Steve Hallstrom and Jeff Kolpack and inquired about them doing a story on the budget deficit if it is true.

Steve replied to me with this:

Yes, I’ve heard that, and I believe it was reported in the Grand Forks Herald a few months ago. *Around UND, it’s common knowledge that the program is about a million dollars in the red, I believe. *At least that’s what we’re being told by the people we know up there. *

I think it is being discussed but no one’s really gone after that in the GF media. *The local stations here that serve Grand Forks are probably the ones to talk to (KX, KV, Fox).

I responded to him and told him that was a lame excuse. *I said you cover their football team and other sports you had the series on whether they would move up why not investigate this. *I said there is no way a reporter that is in bed with UND will drag this story into the light and he should do it. *The people of NDSU and North Dakota deserve to hear about this budget shortfall. *Time for UND to finally get questioned about whether they can make the move like NDSU was when we announced.

Hey LakesBison you seem to be in tight with FOX get those guys digging in UND's dirt. Let's put the spotlight on this deficit and show everyone that it exists.

[lakesbison]

Yes sir.

Jim Shaw....I called him actually.

Said, I appreciate all the links and info you sent me, quite honestly our goal at FoX is to keep NDSU on top of our sports minds, and even push concordia/msum to equal ground with UND, therefore the UND financial difficulties issue won't be pursued because frankly its not a priority for us.


Here's the dam problem,, WDAZ, KVLY and FOX TV all use Grand forks in their coverage maps and ratings.. so they really don't want to piss them off TOO much.


MONEY MONEY MONEY... its crap!!

[kchats]

It didn't stop any of them for bashing NDSU during our move. *Or for questioning where NDSU was going to get their extra money. *What's good for the goose is good for the gander. *North Dakota needs to know UND is $1 million in the red in division II and now wants to move to division I which costs an extra $2 to $3 million according to their phoney numbers more if you understand the move. *All the while they are trying to do this and are $1 million in the red they are throwing money at a ridiculous lawsuit instead of their huge deficit.

P.S. Hallstrom can't use that excuse he did a series of interviews regarding a possible move to division I not too long ago. If you can cover that you can definitely show why the move might not work for them.

[Bisonguy]

Someone write McFeely (preferably using coherent sentences).


He gets paid to stir the pot and not make friends. This is the ideal feature for him.

[BisonBacker]

Like I said in an earlier post, some questions have been asked but no answers and folks in the media seem to be ok with that, Why? When it was NDSU they were fair game, Why? Why the double standard, I'll tell you why becuase all of the stations but WDAZ are local to Fargo Moorhead not Grand Forks even though they like to Claim they are Fargo Moorhead and Grand Forks stations. But WDAZ even though they have a studio in GF which is owned by WDAY/Forum Communications is still a FM company. As an earlier post stated it was also about $$$$. While I agree with that to a point, for media coverage and I'm talking local media for those clowns up in GF they have to go to one of the three. Neither of the three want to alienate the business they generate up there so it would either have to be all 3 doing a story on it which would look like they were piling on poor little und or one will and as I already pointed out just one won't take that chance. It's a sad state of affairs when those charged with keeping the public informed refuse to do their job. The people for the most part up north don't care because all they want is to be seen as either on par or in their mind above the level of NDSU (look at the hockey/DI arguement) so they aren't worried about the $$ because they already get an unfair share of the $$ that is supposed to be distributed via the equity funding fiasco. When the defecit becomes to much to handle they will just turn to the state and beg for more. If they could really afford the move to DI and the city of gf could support it I would say more power to you even though I still wouldn't want to be in the same conference as them but when you combine the hypocrisy with the attitude that we will do this without regard to what it cost and how it affects the university system iin ND and potentially screws the rest of the institutions of more money I do care. What a joke. A side note, If its true what Steve Hallstrom is quoted as saying he's just dropped a few rungs on my latter as far as respect goes. He and all the other reporters have a job to do and they are not doing it :(

[IowaBison]

Please don't take shots at Hallstrom,

He's not an investigative reporter, he's got the sports beat on a tv station in different town than where the story is taking place.

In my mind, this would be a newspaper bit by journalist.

[broke_back_mnt]

What was the real motivation behind the modest proposal? *Obviously he didnt take it seriously or he doesnt take himself seriously. *Why would he lead the debt ridden athletic department up there into another $3-$5 million hole when he has warned the entire country about the evils of diverting money from a universities true mission to athletics? *He said it was especially hurtful to those universities that dont have enough resources like Und which is down a million before they start!

[BisonBacker]

Please don't take shots at Hallstrom,

He's not an investigative reporter, he's got the sports beat on a tv station in different town than where the story is taking place.

In my mind, this would be a newspaper bit by journalist.

I'm not taking shots at Hallstrom, but he does work for a TV station and whether you want to admit it or not it is not only a news story but also a sports story (the 850k defecit is from the SPORTS dept) and if he wants to shirk that responsibility and hide behind the Fargo / Grand Forks label then he shouldn't be covering them at all. *You can't have it both ways. *If you want to include them in your coverage then you either do it all or don't bother. *I took no shots at him and this isn't either. *You could say this is calling them out on the carpet so to speak and if were not allowed to ask why won't they cover the story and you take offense to that then maybe you should move to North Korea where the all the news is sanitized.

[BisonBacker]

I would be happy if a journalist from the print media would cover it as well but I don't see that happening either.

[IowaBison]

Please don't take shots at Hallstrom,

He's not an investigative reporter, he's got the sports beat on a tv station in different town than where the story is taking place.

In my mind, this would be a newspaper bit by journalist.

I'm not taking shots at Hallstrom, but he does work for a TV station and whether you want to admit it or not it is not only a news story but also a sports story (the 850k defecit is from the SPORTS dept) and if he wants to shirk that responsibility and hide behind the Fargo / Grand Forks label then he shouldn't be covering them at all. You can't have it both ways. If you want to include them in your coverage then you either do it all or don't bother. I took no shots at him and this isn't either. You could say this is calling them out on the carpet so to speak and if were not allowed to ask why won't they cover the story and you take offense to that then maybe you should move to North Korea where the all the news is sanitized.


I didn't refer to you specifically, Bisonbacker.

But saying Steve is shirking his duty is definitely a shot.

There is a HUGE difference between choosing to cover a story and not being allowed to.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Hey......we are in the MidCon.......who cares....... ;)

[BisonBacker]

Please don't take shots at Hallstrom,

He's not an investigative reporter, he's got the sports beat on a tv station in different town than where the story is taking place.

In my mind, this would be a newspaper bit by journalist.

I'm not taking shots at Hallstrom, but he does work for a TV station and whether you want to admit it or not it is not only a news story but also a sports story (the 850k defecit is from the SPORTS dept) and if he wants to shirk that responsibility and hide behind the Fargo / Grand Forks label then he shouldn't be covering them at all. *You can't have it both ways. *If you want to include them in your coverage then you either do it all or don't bother. *I took no shots at him and this isn't either. *You could say this is calling them out on the carpet so to speak and if were not allowed to ask why won't they cover the story and you take offense to that then maybe you should move to North Korea where the all the news is sanitized.


I didn't refer to you specifically, Bisonbacker.

But saying Steve is shirking his duty is definitely a shot.

There is a HUGE difference between choosing to cover a story and not being allowed to.



According to the quote and that's all it was is an unsubstantiated quote but it said nothing about not Being allowed to do the story, here it is according to kchats
"Steve replied to me with this:

Yes, I’ve heard that, and I believe it was reported in the Grand Forks Herald a few months ago. Around UND, it’s common knowledge that the program is about a million dollars in the red, I believe. At least that’s what we’re being told by the people we know up there.

I think it is being discussed but no one’s really gone after that in the GF media. The local stations here that serve Grand Forks are probably the ones to talk to (KX, KV, Fox). "
No where is there any mention of him saying he was told not to do it, and
there in lies the problem. Saying the other stations are the ones to talk to IS SHIRKING his responsibility when there is a story there. You can defend him all you want but if this quote is factual and he said it then yes he is shirking his responsibility and yes that is a shot and one that is deserved.

[IowaBison]

your assertion is that he is responsible in some way to report the story

i think that is bogus

[BisonBacker]

your assertion is that he is responsible in some way to report the story

i think that is bogus

Are they not referred to as Sports Journalists or Sports Reporters? I think your assertion that they only report sports scores or do the sports feel good story's and don't talk about anything else is bogus. This is a sports and a news story.

[BisonBacker]

You might want to call Hallstrom now and tell him to get out of that "Press Conference" as he's only a Sports guy and is only supposed to be reporting sports scores & such.

[IowaBison]

There is a HUGE difference between choosing to cover a story and not being allowed to.

[Scooter]

Hey......we are in the MidCon.......who cares....... ;)

This is the quote for all occasions. ;)

[BisonBacker]

Hey......we are in the MidCon.......who cares....... ;)

This is the quote for all occasions. * ;)


We should all care as it will still in a indirect way effects us. As for NorthDakotaBison show me where he said he's not allowed to do a story on it. Don't get me wrong I like Hallstrom but your "don't pick on Steve routine" doesn't wash. Either cover them or don't cover them then in the sports. It is a sports story/news story. If Hallstrom doesn't do it then a "News Reporter" should do it. I guess the better way to define where it should be covered is if a story was done would it be in the News segment or the Sports segment of their 1/2 hour News Weather and Sports broadcast. If its the latter (sports) then it's Hallstroms job or someone in the sports department to cover the story. Pretty simple.

[Scooter]

Hey......we are in the MidCon.......who cares....... ;)

This is the quote for all occasions. * ;)


We should all care as it will still in a indirect way effects us. *As for NorthDakotaBison show me where he said he's not allowed to do a story on it. *Don't get me wrong I like Hallstrom but your "don't pick on Steve routine" doesn't wash. *Either cover them or don't cover them then in the sports. It is a sports story/news story. *If Hallstrom doesn't do it then a "News Reporter" should do it. *I guess the better way to define where it should be covered is if a story was done would it be in the News segment or the Sports segment of their 1/2 hour News Weather and Sports broadcast. *If its the latter (sports) then it's Hallstroms job or someone in the sports department to cover the story. *Pretty simple.

I never said don't pick on Steve, you have me confused with someone else. :D However....

I'm Not Going to Worry About it Today... Don't Bring me Down, Man! :D :D :D :D :D (cue ELO song) ;)

Less than 4 1/2 Hours away, Baby!!!

[sambini]

GREAT DAY BABY++++++++++++++

[kchats]

Hallstrom did a feature on UND's possible move up to division I. That really wasn't covering sports that was interviewing a bunch of people to see what they thought. If he can take a week or two to do that crap he can drag their deficit out into the light and wake North Dakota up about the deficit.

[DIBISON]

Everyone has the right to email the ND State Board of Higher Education members and the ND Senate and House higher education committee members to express their concern.

[BisonBacker]

So has everyone emailed the SBOHE as well as the local media asking why they are not covering this issue?

[DIBISON]

So has everyone emailed the SBOHE as well as the local media asking why they are not covering this issue?

http://www.ndus.nodak.edu/sbhe/default.asp?ID=259

[lakesbison]

I emailed them!!

[broke_back_mnt]

I emailed them too. I was just informed that my email has been forwarded to Und. Laura Glatt told me that they would be happy to respond:

I am forwarding your email to UND. I am sure they
will respond. Laura


>[Your message has been forwarded to Laura Glatt, our vice chancellor
>for administrative affairs.]
>
>Is there any concern that the excess appropriations UND is enjoying
>are being used for athletics? Do you know how they are paying for
>their huge athletic deficit? Is there any concern their proposed
>formula which would greatly increase their allotment at the expense
>of NDSU would be used to expand their athletics?
>

[RedRiver]

Email addresses of the ND State Legislative Higher Education Committee.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/59-2005/interim-info/membership/index.html#he

[84grad]

Ok, raise your hands. Who really thinks that Ray Holmberg from Grand Forks, the committee chair, will even come CLOSE to the negative comments that he made about NDSU's DI move when questions are raised about UND's athletic expenses???

Anyone? Anyone?

[BisonBacker]

Buehler, Buehler ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[broke_back_mnt]

No.

[IowaBison]

something d-o-o economics

voodoo economics

[BisonBacker]

something d-o-o economics

voodoo economics



I think its soon going to be called Kuppienomics ;D

[bincitysioux]

I e-mailed the state board of education, too. *I wanted to know why NDSU's athletic department doesn't make their financial records available to the public like UND does. *Where are their "IAC" minutes posted? *Do they have something to hide? *As a taxpayer in North Dakota, I feel it is my right to know.

JBB, do you have the e-mail addresses for the governing body of education in Minnesota? *As a Minnesota taxpayer, I'm sure you are appalled by the University of Minnesota's six figure athletic budget deficit. * *::)

[broke_back_mnt]

No, your wrong bincity. Im appalled at your emotional traveling fan story!

Seriously, how do the two issues relate? Irresponsibility in Minnesota is no justification for irresponsibility in North Dakota for heavens sake! Are you telling me Und is entitled to waste as much as University of Minnesota?

[Bison_Dan]

I wonder what the uproar would have been if NDSU would have had a deficit while wanting to move to DI in 2003? :P

[bincitysioux]

No, your wrong bincity. *Im appalled at your emotional traveling fan story!

Seriously, how do the two issues relate? *Irresponsibility in Minnesota is no justification for irresponsibility in North Dakota for heavens sake! *Are you telling me Und is entitled to waste as much as University of Minnesota?

I was just wondering if you are as concerned about the way that the school that does use your tax dollars (UMTC) as you seem to be about a school that does not(UND). I mean if you are e-mailing legislators that do not represent you from a state in which you don't live about how its public institutions manage money, I would assume you do the same for your the state in which you do live.

As for the travelling fans story, I hope that the NDSU administration doesn't share your view. It is not good business practice to shun potential customers. They have the right to spend money on Bison or Sioux athletics just much as you or I do.

[bincitysioux]

I wonder what the uproar would have been if NDSU would have had a deficit while wanting to move to DI in 2003? * :P

How would we know? They didn't show us their books did they? (Honest question, they don't now, did they then?)

[broke_back_mnt]

I would hate to turn away 10 - 15,000 fans because of Und having a selfish need for a game. *And please, you cant justify financial irresponsibility at Und by comparisons to University of Minnesota.

What if I was a real poor farmer, worst in the State? *Should I get more because the neighboring states are willing to pay real poor farmers more in subsidies than North Dakota? *

Get real! *Get accountable!

Ps. I displayed some graphics!

[BisonBacker]

Bin, What about Alum or other financial backers for NDSU? Do they not have any right or say in what affects their school? If financing of your (UND'S) proposed move impacts NDSU and shortchanges NDSU or makes the disparity in equity funding gap even wider is not an alum or financial backer of NDSU entitled to any input or opinion on what happens? They may no longer be or may never have been a taxpayer in ND but it certainly doesn't negate their right to an opinion :-/

[bincitysioux]

I'm not arguing whether or not UND is financially irresponsible and I'm not comparing UND's accounting methods to UMTC's. I'm simply trying to find out if you are simply a concerned citizen, or an irrational NDSU fan. If you're the type of person who is truly for the public's well-being and awareness (like you apparently claim to be by continually bringing up UND's finances and their unfair use of funding that puts NDSU at a disadvantage) then I assume you are also contacting your own Minnesota lawmakers about UMTC's alleged irresponsibility and how it negativly affects a school like UM-Crookston. Or am I correct when I assume that you are simply an irrational NDSU fan who has an unparalleled hatred for UND that wants to see NDSU succeed and UND fail?

Again, why aren't NDSU's ledger books available to the public? I'm not implying that I think that NDSU is running a huge deficit. But as a taxpayer in the state of North Dakota who has a vested interest in seeing all of the public institutions of the NDUS succeed, why are they not available?

[Bisonguy]

Again, why aren't NDSU's ledger books available to the public? *I'm not implying that I think that NDSU is running a huge deficit. *But as a taxpayer in the state of North Dakota who has a vested interest in seeing all of the public institutions of the NDUS succeed, why are they not available? *

NDSU reports their numbers to the government, just like every other publicly-funded school- http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

[bincitysioux]

Again, why aren't NDSU's ledger books available to the public? *I'm not implying that I think that NDSU is running a huge deficit. *But as a taxpayer in the state of North Dakota who has a vested interest in seeing all of the public institutions of the NDUS succeed, why are they not available? *

NDSU reports their numbers to the government, just like every other publicly-funded school- http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp




And those numbers show UND running in the black, but nobody here wants to use those numbers when talking about UND

[BisonBacker]

I'm not arguing whether or not UND is financially irresponsible and I'm not comparing UND's accounting methods to UMTC's. *I'm simply trying to find out if you are simply a concerned citizen, or an irrational NDSU fan. *If you're the type of person who is truly for the public's well-being and awareness (like you apparently claim to be by continually bringing up UND's finances and their unfair use of funding that puts NDSU at a disadvantage) then I assume you are also contacting your own Minnesota lawmakers about UMTC's alleged irresponsibility and how it negativly affects a school like UM-Crookston. *Or am I correct when I assume that you are simply an irrational NDSU fan who has an unparalleled hatred for UND that wants to see NDSU succeed and UND fail?

Again, why aren't NDSU's ledger books available to the public? *I'm not implying that I think that NDSU is running a huge deficit. *But as a taxpayer in the state of North Dakota who has a vested interest in seeing all of the public institutions of the NDUS succeed, why are they not available? *

The first highlighted comment would be a lost arguement on your part. UND is being financially irresponsible. The second highlighted comment you admit your making assumptions. No where did I say where I reside so for you to say that is just exactly what you claimed it was an assumption and you know what they say about making assumptions. The third highlight...well lets not go there again just reread my last comment. Lastly Bisonguy has provided you with the numbers which I know you as a knowlegable fan was surely aware that information was public knowledge. I won't assume you knew as I give you more credit then that ;)

[broke_back_mnt]

From Bisonguys link, and contrary to what the local information has indicated, Im showing a deficit of $257,539. *I think since the time these numbers were released the "administration" up there has announced additional shortfalls bringing the Und athletic defict spending to the $850,000 level.

[bincitysioux]

Bisonguy's link shows UND with a surplus of $62,915. I know most of you take that as an implausible figure. However, Bisonguy's link shows that NDSU spent the exact same amount as they brought in, to the penny. That is obviously gospel, that happens alot. I know, I know, that last minute donor! :-?

I don't know where you are from BisonBacker, I was referring to JBB who has mentioned he is from the central MN area several times. Sorry for the confusion.

[IowaBison]

Bisonguy's link shows UND with a surplus of $62,915. I know most of you take that as an implausible figure. However, Bisonguy's link shows that NDSU spent the exact same amount as they brought in, to the penny. That is obviously gospel, that happens alot. I know, I know, that last minute donor! :-?

I don't know where you are from BisonBacker, I was referring to JBB who has mentioned he is from the central MN area several times. Sorry for the confusion.

for '05 could be.

confusing ope data for real financials.......................c'mon

[Bison_Dan]

I think bin is a little worried that the deficit might derail the DI move. I wonder when the pres said that they needed a conference invite before the move worries him?

[broke_back_mnt]

I agree Bison Dan. *

When I calculated the deficit I included athletically related student aid and recruting expenses. *I guess Im not sure how those are handled.

The figures presented are from 7/1/04-6/31/05. They are for the 2004 football/basketball seasons.

[BisonBacker]

Response from up North

Que the crickets chirping............

;D ;D ;D

[broke_back_mnt]

Again, why aren't NDSU's ledger books available to the public? *I'm not implying that I think that NDSU is running a huge deficit. *But as a taxpayer in the state of North Dakota who has a vested interest in seeing all of the public institutions of the NDUS succeed, why are they not available? *

NDSU reports their numbers to the government, just like every other publicly-funded school- http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp




And those numbers show UND running in the black, but nobody here wants to use those numbers when talking about UND


Heres from the und board. *A nice recap of the funding issue with an appeal to some foresight:

If we could put the kindergarden-style fighting aside for a moment, they are a couple of parts of kchats letter that should be seriously addressed. Personally, I don't think the conference issue is one of them. NDSU fans don't have a leg to stand on, since Gene Taylor said almost the same thing before NDSU's move. Taylor had to backpedal then, just as Kupchella is doing now. What is troubling is the financial situation.

Using the IAC records:
FY03: even (no firm number was given)
FY04: -48k
FY05: RT avoided giving numbers at several meetings. Eventually given as -250k
FY06: -680k-700k (projected; final number never given)
FY07: -850k (projected; unconfirmed sources; we'll know more after the IAC minutes are posted)

We can't be concerned about this? At what magic number do these deficits become a problem? $1M? $1.5M? $2M? Let's face it: the UND athletic department is in a financial tailspin. DI is going to take $2M-$3M above and beyond the current budget. Where is it going to come from? How much is the student activity fee going to be raised? How much more can the FSC come up with? Is tuition going to increase to help pay for the move? Are academic funds going to be diverted? Of the four revenue sports, three are at, or near, capacity for their venues and both the Betty's and Alerus' capacities have recently been revised downward. When are we allowed to have this debate? After UND is committed and it's too late to turn back?

Some are saying that NDSU was in the same situation. I beg to differ. NDSU was not approaching $1M in the red. NDSU did not raise student fees. Teammakers was able to double their revenues to $1.5M. (To the best of our knowledge)Money was not diverted from academic programs. Arena capacities allowed large revenue growth without raising ticket prices. Attendace improved for all revenue sports(Yes, that includes basketball-no doubleheaders). Guarantee games filled in funding gaps in the later years of the reclassification. UND is 3+ years away from that revenue source.

This is not something that should be swept under the rug. Until we get some real answers, we need to keep asking the questions. Was it star2city or Sicatoka who kept saying "cost and conference"? Why the silence now? This is not an anti-UND rant. If these questions aren't answered, the move will fail and UND's athletic department will be thrown back 20 years. Look to Kupchella's previous job. NDSU won't have to beat UND on the field, UND will defeat itself in its own financial ledgers.

Maybe a DI move is in UND's best interests and maybe it's not. One thing is for sure: If the financial situation isn't stabilized prior to the move, the reclassification will be an unmitigated disaster that will cost a whole lot of people their jobs and damage UND for decades to come. Don't let that happen. Demand answers.

[Tatanka]

Smells like more tuition waivers will be on their way up north (like those for women's hockey). I thought I saw a duck, and I hear quacking. Just might be a duck.

If this is their plan, they better be up front, open, and honest with teh ND taxpayers (Tatanka included) and explain why they need to do this and how it benefits the people footing the bill. Given the university's administration's track record, this is not likely to happen, and the network of UND political cronies that were rattling sabres and grumbling publicly about NDSU's move will remain silent on the issue.

Just a thought, but do tuition waivers affect the "per-student" funding numbers (same funding, more students) that are used as a supporting argument for a bigger allocation of the SBHE budget? What a bonus.

</ParanoidDelusionsWithMoreThanAHintOfReality>

[broke_back_mnt]

They are starting to feel the heat on this funding issue . My email went to 2 spots and now resides at und, and yes Im awaiting a reply. Others have emailed, some have letters published and und fans are starting the whine about it. Its starting to warm up a bit.

Its really difficult to imagine going through the transition with a school like und as your partner. Could it have worked without SDSU? I wonder? Its just unfortunate that USD might be in that position . Maybe they will keep their distance?

[kchats]

JBB you need to write a letter to the Editor in the Grand Forks Herald and possibly the Fargo Forum as well. Concerned citizens need to wake the North Dakota public up about the funding issues UND's athletic program is facing before they make the move so tax payers don't have to bail them out after they make the move. Sending emails is fine but back it up with something in print for the public to see so they are aware of the issue as well. It is far too easy to ignore emails since you figure the public is not aware of what has been written. You might even reference the previous letter and question why nothing has been investigated since the issue was brought out into the light. Weekly or monthly letters until this gets investigated and proven to exist or disproven (not very likely) should be sent to both the Fargo Forum and the Grand Forks Herald. Those of you in western North Dakota should write the Bismarck paper, Dickinson paper, Minot paper and Williston paper. If enough letters get published questioning this deficit it might force the legislature to investigate this as well. This is about preventing a mistake from happening. If they can't afford division II they won't be able to afford division I.

[bincitysioux]

I love watching your guys' strategery :D ::)

[kchats]

Just trying to prevent UND from buying a house they can't afford. Maybe you as a UND grad should write letters to the administration questioning the deficit as well.

[broke_back_mnt]

I for one hope this strategy works. *Im sure everyone is in favor of accountability. *Its a long way from 2004 to the present. *I know the demands for accountability and criticisms that were turned toward NDSU helped a lot. *

Modest proposal aside Kepchellas concern that some universities that cant afford it may try and move anyway is right on the money. *He certainly saw that issue clearly. *However, asking the entire NCAA to change to allow his school to compete for guarantee money and other Division 1 revenues on a sport by sport basis was just not flying. *

The last thing North Dakota taxpayers want is a sports factory that is running in the red. *The fact that a sports management company runs the show up there isnt helping that image out a bit. *If the budget deficit is as large as rumored its costing each taxpayer in North Dakota over a buck just to keep the Und factory running. In fact, their athletic defict would clear the books at Mayville State. *If they cant spend it on education up there, let Mayville State spend it on education. *Und can cut back on the sports they cant afford.

When they ignored the modest proposal, I think the NCAA was suggesting that if you cant afford it dont move. *An embarassing financial report would indeed be a setback now. *No wonder he is trying to get all the money from the SBOHE! *No wonder they want back on the NDSU schedules.

[BisonBacker]

I love watching your guys' strategery * :D *::)
So you think thats all this is really about. You feel that the points raised are not credible? How do you explain a year by year growing defecit? How is it that at the DII level your in the red but moving up a level will solve that? I maybe gave you too much credit bincity, I know its your beloved school but its the state of ND and the taxpayers that deserve answers. Your own university president openly asked these same questions or at least some of them in his letter to specific alumni. I think your blind over zealous journey to try to follow in NDSU's footsteps and get the rivalry going again is really blinded your ability to look at the whole issue in a realistic and unbiased basis. Don't think this issue will go away at least not until someone from UND steps up and answers some of these questions.

[broke_back_mnt]

One question the accountability issue will address is why the program is in the red, or not in the red. If they are, I sure hope its not a subsidy to REA, but how would you tell? Any negative cash flow through that athletic department is going to have REA involved someway, especially in collecting their share of the proceeds. Maybe their share is just too high?

[Hammersmith]

JBB: You're welcome. You mind attributing your source next time? ;)
(I originally posted the deficit breakdown post.)

For the record, I actually don't mind an athletic department running a deficit, but it must be relatively small and it must be stable. UND's is neither. If the $850k number is accurate, that would mean their deficit is more than 10% of their annual budget. I could accept 1-2%, but not that much. The fact that it has increased steadily for at least 4 straight years just makes it worse. At this point I see three major possibilities: 1. UND chooses to fix its budget problems by staying DII and cutting costs while trying to increase fundraising; 2. UND moves to DI and pulls a funding rabbit out of the hat by drastically increasing revenues somehow; 3. UND moves to DI and their athletic department either becomes a Savannah State due to lack of funds, or is rocked by scandal when massive $2M+ decifits are found in 3 or 4 years. I'm just not enough of an optimist to blindly believe in option #2.

[broke_back_mnt]

I apologize Hammersmith for not posting the source. It was a great post and needed to be seen outside of the small click that reads that board.

[BisonBacker]

I see that they are posting a lot of garbage up in sueville regarding this thread and topic. Claim its unfounded and has no place in the media as there is no story here. What a bunch of hypocrites. The only thing I care about regarding this issue is that funding inequity doesn't increase because of their desire to try to keep up with NDSU. I could care a less what happens to them otherwise. Just don't want to see NDSU get screwed by them even more then they already are in the funding equity issue.

[Bisonguy]

Celebrate possibly the greatest win in recent Bison history, and give this a rest, at least for the weekend. ::)

[BisonBacker]

Better put the ACHTUNG-VERBOTTEN sign up on the thread ;D

[broke_back_mnt]

This is official, there is no deficit up North. That must be why there is no story?

Mr. "JBB" (Yes they did use my real name)
The following information is in respnse to your questions regarding
UND Athletics.

The appropriations provided to the University of North Dakota have
recently been benchmarked to a group of 15 peer institutions. This
benchmark indicates that UND receives about 50 percent of the peer
median on a per FTE student basis. This level of funding provides no
"excess" appropriations.

Athletics is operating within currently available resources and does
not have a deficit.



Alice Brekke
Assistant to the President and Director, Budget
University of North Dakota
Box 8233
Grand Forks, ND 58202-8233

[IowaBison]

1) no school is going to admit that they receive more than their fair share, by many reasonable measures UND is receiving a disproportionate share of funding.

2) even alice would have to admit that her response to the athletic department is spin.

[BisonBacker]

She must be a und grad, obviously simple math is something they don't use up there. I guess they must use the same counting methods they used years ago to count those who attended the million man march in Washington ;D

[southpaw]

so let me get this straight? you guys whine and complain when the und administration won't answer your questions. then when they do and it's not the answer you want, you don't believe them? that makes a lot of sense.

ask for an answer and you'll get one, but don't b*tch when it's not something you want to hear.

[Tatanka]

This is official, there is no deficit up North. *That must be why there is no story?

Mr. "JBB" (Yes they did use my real name)
* The following information is in respnse to your questions regarding
UND Athletics.

* The appropriations provided to the University of North Dakota have
recently been benchmarked to a group of 15 peer institutions. *This
benchmark indicates that UND receives about 50 percent of the peer
median on a per FTE student basis. *This level of funding provides no
"excess" appropriations.

* Athletics is operating within currently available resources and does
not have a deficit.



Alice Brekke
Assistant to the President and Director, Budget
University of North Dakota
Box 8233
Grand Forks, ND *58202-8233

http://www.madmustard.com/images/2006/03/Baghdad%20Bob.th.jpg
There are no excess appropriations, as you can see by my clear ability to cite statistics that have minimal correlation to your question.
Athletics is operating within currently available resources and does not have a deficit.
There's nothing to see here. Please disperse.

[NdFaN]

I'm wondering how much of the supposed red UND is in is due to the use of the Ralph? If any? Just seems like using a building like that wouldn't be cheap.

Also Mayville State Athletics is in a bind to, Comet Athletic Club is $100,000 in hole and needs to be paid off by Jan 1 of this coming year. That might not be huge deal to a UND or NDSU, but to Mayville that is the same as where UND is right now.

[MinotBison]

http://www.madmustard.com/images/2006/03/Baghdad%20Bob.th.jpg

What is Baghdad Bob doing these days? ;D ;D ;D

[broke_back_mnt]

Hilarious Tatanka!! ;D ;D ;D