UND Pursuing Lawsuit

[BisonBacker]

They just don't get it up there. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. Membership to the NCAA is not mandatory. If you want to be a member then you play by their rules. I guess this should come as no surprise given kup o jello's most recent attempts at trying to change the ground rules.
Here's the forum's story.
http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=141134

[USA_Hockey]

If the NCAA came out tommorow and said that the Bison logo was hostile and abusive and that NDSU could no longer host any playoff events unless they get rid of their logo, this whole board and you yourself (probably more than anyone) would be in an uproar. But I guess you have to follow by the rules now don't you.

[Sioux1]

They just don't get it up there. * It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. *Membership to the NCAA is not mandatory. *If you want to be a member then you play by their rules. *I guess this should come as no surprise given kup o jello's most recent attempts at trying to change the ground rules.
Here's the forum's story.
http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=141134


The NCAA isn't even playing by their own rules (thus the lawsuit).

[IowaBisonToo]

Why is it that schools like Illinois won't fight this issue yet UND tries their damndest to to waste money :-??

[broke_back_mnt]

NDSU plays by the rules. *To assume otherwise does not make your case. *They wont be able to make the move until this lawsuit is resolved. *Thats why they have put off the DI move for at least a year. *Currently they are not in compliance with NCAA policy. The Principal of Rules Compliance states that all *members of DI NCAA must be in full *compliance with all rules and policies of the NCAA.

Im not sure what point they can make to carry the day. *The NCAA has the right to govern their own events. *If the lawsuit is filed there will be resentment among NCAA members in good standing. Their selfish endeavor will cost all of us money defending the organization. *

[Shawn-O]

Anyone with one shred of objectivity can see that UND is doing the right thing. One, this little piece of social re-engineering was never put to the members for a vote. Two, it's being selectively enforced. If it's hostile and abusive, get rid of all of the nicknames and logos across the board.

[DIBISON]

Some schools always seem to be in the news and for all of the wrong reasons!!

[IowaBison]

NCAA bylaws allow executive action, that's what was taken.

Case closed.

An executive committee is authorized to

1) exist
2) identify core issues
3) resolve core issues and other association-wide matters

But, hey, if UND wants to go to bat against one of the largest, most powerful organizations in the country and tell them how to govern themselves, I say go for it and good luck.................

[sambini]

Will this ever get resolved? Or will the Red Pepper move to Fargo first.

[Mr._Bill]

I welcome this exercise in futility. Hopefully it will last for about 5 years.

[sambini]

++++++++++++++++++ or more++++++++++++++

[NDSUstudent]

I welcome this exercise in futility. *Hopefully it will last for about 5 years.

I agree, let them waste millions fighting the NCAA in court. As long as the state doesn't give them a dime they can fight the NCAA forever for all I care.

[Tatanka]

I welcome this exercise in futility. *Hopefully it will last for about 5 years.

I agree, let them waste millions fighting the NCAA in court. As long as the state doesn't give them a dime they can fight the NCAA forever for all I care.
++

[Gothmog]

Anyone with one shred of objectivity can see that UND is doing the right thing. *One, this little piece of social re-engineering was never put to the members for a vote. *Two, it's being selectively enforced. *If it's hostile and abusive, get rid of all of the nicknames and logos across the board. *

C'mon. That's utter nonsense and you know it. This lawsuit is a silly waste of money. The issue will not go away whether you win or lose. Winning may buy you a few years, but eventually you MUST change the name. As long as the Dakota people maintain their oppostion there is no moral or ethical alternative.

[BisBison]

waste of time, waste money, waste of effort, typical reaction of a bunch of lawyers. If they don't do what we want sue em. What a tired operation they are running up there. They are turning into a big joke. :-[

[USA_Hockey]

Well if you think about this way, after UND makes the Division 1 move the NCAA isn't take much away from them. For the most part, UND won't host any playoff events, the only possible event would be football, which means they would have to be in a conference, at large bid, top 16, etc, etc. Once UND makes the Division 1 move, the only thing they will have to do is change the hockey uniforms for at most four games a year. There isn't much being lost. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but REA is private grounds and not owned by the UND, which technically means they don't have to change the logos if they don't want to. That's like one business telling another business what they can and can't do.

[TaTonka_31]

My initial response to the NCAA ruling against so called abusive mascots was what a load of crap and I for the most part still think that. *But when the NCAA allowed Florida State to get a waiver from the rule, then the NCAA started a double standard that I think deserves to be litigated by UND. *IMO *The rule became more than a politcally correct aberation, it became just plain mean to the schools involved. *

These Native American names are no different than using terms like Vikings, Fighting Irish, Yankees etc. *No mascot names were ever meant to be derogatory.

[virgfoss]

Anyone with one shred of objectivity can see that UND is doing the right thing. *One, this little piece of social re-engineering was never put to the members for a vote. *Two, it's being selectively enforced. *If it's hostile and abusive, get rid of all of the nicknames and logos across the board. *


Shawn - O, known for his objectivity.
Shawn - O - I AM WE TODD DIDD.

[Gothmog]

Well if you think about this way, after UND makes the Division 1 move the NCAA isn't take much away from them. *For the most part, UND won't host any playoff events, the only possible event would be football, which means they would have to be in a conference, at large bid, top 16, etc, etc. *Once UND makes the Division 1 move, the only thing they will have to do is change the hockey uniforms for at most four games a year. *There isn't much being lost. *Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but REA is private grounds and not owned by the UND, which technically means they don't have to change the logos if they don't want to. *That's like one business telling another business what they can and can't do.

The NCAA cannot force the REA to remove the logos. They just won't hold any post-season events in the REA as long as the logos remain. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[imabison]

Well if you think about this way, after UND makes the Division 1 move the NCAA isn't take much away from them. For the most part, UND won't host any playoff events, the only possible event would be football, which means they would have to be in a conference, at large bid, top 16, etc, etc. Once UND makes the Division 1 move, the only thing they will have to do is change the hockey uniforms for at most four games a year. There isn't much being lost. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but REA is private grounds and not owned by the UND, which technically means they don't have to change the logos if they don't want to. That's like one business telling another business what they can and can't do.

Well, they seem to play a lot of mens basketball at the REA, and since that would be considered their home court they would not allow the conference tourney to be played their. This the way I see it from the Mid Con since they said it could be played in the FFD since home for NDSU is the BSA.

I still think the school up north should put their efforts into a new nickname, new logo, and a new beginning.

[broke_back_mnt]

There is no double standard. The NCAA has a set of criteria that allow schools to use the nickname. The key is support from the Tribes. Its going to be very difficult to get around the Principal of Rules Compliance. The suit will have to be settled to bring them into compliance with NCAA policy if they are to make the move at all. Thats why law suit comes first.

[bincitysioux]

There is no double standard. *The NCAA has a set of criteria that allow schools to use the nickname. *The key is support from the Tribes. *Its going to be very difficult to get around the Principal of Rules Compliance. *The suit will have to be settled to bring them into compliance with NCAA policy if they are to make the move at all. *Thats why law suit comes first.

How are they not in compliance again?

[WYOBISONMAN]

There is no double standard. *The NCAA has a set of criteria that allow schools to use the nickname. *The key is support from the Tribes. *Its going to be very difficult to get around the Principal of Rules Compliance. *The suit will have to be settled to bring them into compliance with NCAA policy if they are to make the move at all. *Thats why law suit comes first.

There is nothing in any NCAA rule that says the nickname issue has to be resolved to move to DI. Good grief!

[BisonBacker]

There is no double standard. *The NCAA has a set of criteria that allow schools to use the nickname. *The key is support from the Tribes. *Its going to be very difficult to get around the Principal of Rules Compliance. *The suit will have to be settled to bring them into compliance with NCAA policy if they are to make the move at all. *Thats why law suit comes first.

There is nothing in any NCAA rule that says the nickname issue has to be resolved to move to DI. *Good grief!
I haven't looked at the rule book but one thing I can say and be pretty sure I'm correct and that is with this issue looming over their head I woudln't be placing any bets on the whioux getting a big thumbs up from the NCAA in their application to move up. The other thing is could someone please explain why any conference would want to have a school join them that is battling with the NCAA? Just seems to me the old saying about picking your battles was lost up North. Just move on already!

[Sioux1]

There is no double standard. *The NCAA has a set of criteria that allow schools to use the nickname. *The key is support from the Tribes. *Its going to be very difficult to get around the Principal of Rules Compliance. *The suit will have to be settled to bring them into compliance with NCAA policy if they are to make the move at all. *Thats why law suit comes first.


And does the the NCAA have plans to check with each new Seminole tribe that is elected in order to remain in compliance? I don't recall their exemption being granted as a short term approval and needing to be renewed with each new tribal council. As The tribal leadership changes for the Seminoles, their opinion on this matter might also.

[IowaBisonToo]

waste of time, waste money, waste of effort, typical reaction of a bunch of lawyers. If they don't do what we want sue em. What a tired operation they are running up there. They are turning into a big joke. :-[
Wait, this statement is in the present tense. I thought this was something that happened a long time ago? ;D

[bincitysioux]

Until a UND team hosts a playoff game, or shows up at a post-season event wearing their Fighting Sioux jerseys, they are in compliance with NCAA rules.

[IowaBisonToo]

Well if you think about this way, after UND makes the Division 1 move the NCAA isn't take much away from them. *For the most part, UND won't host any playoff events, the only possible event would be football, which means they would have to be in a conference, at large bid, top 16, etc, etc. *Once UND makes the Division 1 move, the only thing they will have to do is change the hockey uniforms for at most four games a year. *There isn't much being lost. *Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but REA is private grounds and not owned by the UND, which technically means they don't have to change the logos if they don't want to. *That's like one business telling another business what they can and can't do.
So you're saying UND wouldn't try and host a conference tournament? *Aren't these governed by the NCAA??? *You never want to play a mens bb game in the Ralph? *What about womens bb and volleyball? *Aren't they played in the Betty? *Wouldn't you want to try and get post-season tournaments? *I guess if the privately owned R/BEA doesn't have to change their logo, the NCAA doesn't have to pump millions of $$$ into the city come tournament time.

See, this is what gets me. *UND and GF would rather be stubborn and pig-headed and waste millions on a frivalous law suit (which is exactly what it is) that would allow them to keep their name and logo than to rake in millions by hosting post-season tournaments. *Economical suicide. *And you people think you have such a great college of business up there. *Evidently economics isn't a required class. :-[

[Shawn-O]

UND and GF would rather be stubborn and pig-headed and waste millions on a frivalous law suit (which is exactly what it is) that would allow them to keep their name and logo than to rake in millions by hosting post-season tournaments.

Funny, the only people that are calling it frivalous that I can tell is the wacky "I blindly hate UND" fringe of the NDSU alumni. In the court of public opinion, UND will come out of this smelling like a rose, I assure you.

[IowaBisonToo]

To be honest with you Shawn, I could care less whether or not UND keeps the nickname. The problem I see is that if not now, someday. Someday the name will have to get changed. This is the world we live in. Personally, I think PC'ness is a little overdone yet that doesn't mean it will go away and neither will the nickname issue. My issue is that UND will spend so much money on this thing yet will it be worth it in the end? I really don't think so. Not to mention, where in blazes is UND going to get all the funds for this litigation? Yeah, yeah, there are all these law grads that are going to donate their time and others that will give to the cause. That still doesn't account for the time spent by UND staff to fight this fight. And you know what they say, time IS money. Well, their time is taxpayers money. Personally, I think there are better things to spend taxpayers money on than a nickname issue. It's sad when pride and a nickname issue get in the way of the actual mission of a university - to educate people and better society. I don't see how this fight does either.

[WYOBISONMAN]

According to the paper this suit will be totally funded by donations.

[Bison_Dan]

UND and GF would rather be stubborn and pig-headed and waste millions on a frivalous law suit (which is exactly what it is) that would allow them to keep their name and logo than to rake in millions by hosting post-season tournaments.

Funny, the only people that are calling it frivalous that I can tell is the wacky "I blindly hate UND" fringe of the NDSU alumni. *In the court of public opinion, UND will come out of this smelling like a rose, I assure you. *

The main reason und is starting the law suit is the REA, period. Other wise they would be in motion of starting the change. This could be a real lose - lose situation for und, but since Shawn has assured us I guess it's only a lose - win situation. :D

[RedRiver]

But not the time of attorney general state employees!

I've noticed that the school has already started the change in nickname from fighting sioux to sioux in ads. Heck, Shawn O. even uses just sioux under his name on this board!!!

[Shawn-O]

Thanks, IowaBison. :) I will agree to disagree with you. This is worth fighting for. If it were PETA going after names such as Bison and Golden Gophers, I would feel the exact same way. You make an interesting point about the resources used relative to the mission of the university. This applies to the NCAA as well. College athletics is riddled with much more important issues than this. The NCAA has been running roughshod over people for too long, and it was time that someone said "Enough!" I'm proud that it was UND. No, I'm probably not the most objective person on this issue, but I can tell you that the support is overwhelmingly in favor of UND right now.

[USA_Hockey]

Thanks, IowaBison. *:) *I will agree to disagree with you. *This is worth fighting for. *If it were PETA going after names such as Bison and Golden Gophers, I would feel the exact same way. *You make an interesting point about the resources used relative to the mission of the university. *This applies to the NCAA as well. *College athletics is riddled with much more important issues than this. *The NCAA has been running roughshod over people for too long, and it was time that someone said "Enough!" *I'm proud that it was UND. *No, I'm probably not the most objective person on this issue, but I can tell you that the support is overwhelmingly in favor of UND right now.

Great point, if PETA were to come out and say that the Bison or Gopher names are offensive and the NCAA would not allow NDSU or Minnesota to host any playoff events unless they got rid of their name this board would be in an uproar and all you know it.

[USA_Hockey]

Well if you think about this way, after UND makes the Division 1 move the NCAA isn't take much away from them. *For the most part, UND won't host any playoff events, the only possible event would be football, which means they would have to be in a conference, at large bid, top 16, etc, etc. *Once UND makes the Division 1 move, the only thing they will have to do is change the hockey uniforms for at most four games a year. *There isn't much being lost. *Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but REA is private grounds and not owned by the UND, which technically means they don't have to change the logos if they don't want to. *That's like one business telling another business what they can and can't do.
So you're saying UND wouldn't try and host a conference tournament? *Aren't these governed by the NCAA??? *You never want to play a mens bb game in the Ralph? *What about womens bb and volleyball? *Aren't they played in the Betty? *Wouldn't you want to try and get post-season tournaments? *I guess if the privately owned R/BEA doesn't have to change their logo, the NCAA doesn't have to pump millions of $$$ into the city come tournament time.

See, this is what gets me. *UND and GF would rather be stubborn and pig-headed and waste millions on a frivalous law suit (which is exactly what it is) that would allow them to keep their name and logo than to rake in millions by hosting post-season tournaments. *Economical suicide. *And you people think you have such a great college of business up there. *Evidently economics isn't a required class. :-[

Yes Economics is a required class and yes UND is allowed to host conference tournament events. For example, UND can host the first round of the WCHA playoffs at REA. This would be no different than hosting a Mid-Con basketball tournament.

[bincitysioux]

UND and GF would rather be stubborn and pig-headed and waste millions on a frivalous law suit (which is exactly what it is) that would allow them to keep their name and logo than to rake in millions by hosting post-season tournaments.

Funny, the only people that are calling it frivalous that I can tell is the wacky "I blindly hate UND" fringe of the NDSU alumni. *In the court of public opinion, UND will come out of this smelling like a rose, I assure you. *

The main reason und is starting the law suit is the REA, period. *Other wise they would be in motion of starting the change. *This could be a real lose - lose situation for und, but since Shawn has assured us I guess it's only a lose - win situation. * :D

It was the State Board of Higher Education who decided that UND would retain the nickname several years ago. It was the State Board of Higher Education who approved the pursuit of this lawsuit in order to retain the name this time around.

[NDSUguy]

Well if you think about this way, after UND makes the Division 1 move the NCAA isn't take much away from them. For the most part, UND won't host any playoff events, the only possible event would be football, which means they would have to be in a conference, at large bid, top 16, etc, etc. Once UND makes the Division 1 move, the only thing they will have to do is change the hockey uniforms for at most four games a year. There isn't much being lost. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but REA is private grounds and not owned by the UND, which technically means they don't have to change the logos if they don't want to. That's like one business telling another business what they can and can't do.
So you're saying UND wouldn't try and host a conference tournament? Aren't these governed by the NCAA??? You never want to play a mens bb game in the Ralph? What about womens bb and volleyball? Aren't they played in the Betty? Wouldn't you want to try and get post-season tournaments? I guess if the privately owned R/BEA doesn't have to change their logo, the NCAA doesn't have to pump millions of $$$ into the city come tournament time.

See, this is what gets me. UND and GF would rather be stubborn and pig-headed and waste millions on a frivalous law suit (which is exactly what it is) that would allow them to keep their name and logo than to rake in millions by hosting post-season tournaments. Economical suicide. And you people think you have such a great college of business up there. Evidently economics isn't a required class. :-[

Yes Economics is a required class and yes UND is allowed to host conference tournament events. For example, UND can host the first round of the WCHA playoffs at REA. This would be no different than hosting a Mid-Con basketball tournament.


maybe i'm missing something... as it stands now, wouldn't UND not be able to host any post season events until they change the name? I thought that was the penalty by the NCAA. If they could host and participate in post season events while keeping the Fighting Sioux name what would the motivation be to change their name. UND could then thumb their nose at the NCAA with no penalty.

[Shawn-O]

It doesn't apply to conference tournaments, UND can host. *However, they couldn't host an NCAA Regional. *UND cannot host a D-II playoff game in December, as it stands now. *Also, they will need alternate jerseys for the NCAA Hockey regionals in 2007, as well as the frozen four. Not sure about the football jerseys. If the Bennett Brien logo is there, then yes they will need alternates.

[bincitysioux]

An NCC or WCHA tournament is not an NCAA postseason event, they are governed by their respective conferences. The NCAA DII football playoffs, NCAA DII basketball playoffs, and NCAA Regional hockey tournaments are the NCAA sanctioned/sponsored events that UND faces restrictions at. >:(

[tcbison]

Thanks, IowaBison. *:) *I will agree to disagree with you. *This is worth fighting for. *If it were PETA going after names such as Bison and Golden Gophers, I would feel the exact same way. *You make an interesting point about the resources used relative to the mission of the university. *This applies to the NCAA as well. *College athletics is riddled with much more important issues than this. *The NCAA has been running roughshod over people for too long, and it was time that someone said "Enough!" *I'm proud that it was UND. *No, I'm probably not the most objective person on this issue, but I can tell you that the support is overwhelmingly in favor of UND right now.

Great point, if PETA were to come out and say that the Bison or Gopher names are offensive and the NCAA would not allow NDSU or Minnesota to host any playoff events unless they got rid of their name this board would be in an uproar and all you know it. *

If that was the case, they would have to do away with all mascot names. Are some of the Native American Sioux tribes against the name? I'm asking because I don't know. If there is then that needs to be taken care of.

[mebison]

Thanks, IowaBison. *:) *I will agree to disagree with you. *This is worth fighting for. *If it were PETA going after names such as Bison and Golden Gophers, I would feel the exact same way. *You make an interesting point about the resources used relative to the mission of the university. *This applies to the NCAA as well. *College athletics is riddled with much more important issues than this. *The NCAA has been running roughshod over people for too long, and it was time that someone said "Enough!" *I'm proud that it was UND. *No, I'm probably not the most objective person on this issue, but I can tell you that the support is overwhelmingly in favor of UND right now.

Great point, if PETA were to come out and say that the Bison or Gopher names are offensive and the NCAA would not allow NDSU or Minnesota to host any playoff events unless they got rid of their name this board would be in an uproar and all you know it. *

If that was the case, they would have to do away with all mascot names. Are some of the Native American Sioux tribes against the name? I'm asking because I don't know. If there is then that needs to be taken care of.


That would be the million-dollar question, and last time I checked, there is a different answer for every dollar ;)

[broke_back_mnt]

There is no double standard. *The NCAA has a set of criteria that allow schools to use the nickname. *The key is support from the Tribes. *Its going to be very difficult to get around the Principal of Rules Compliance. *The suit will have to be settled to bring them into compliance with NCAA policy if they are to make the move at all. *Thats why law suit comes first.

There is nothing in any NCAA rule that says the nickname issue has to be resolved to move to DI. *Good grief!

The failure to abide by the NCAA nickname policy means you cant host or use the nicknme in NCAA championship events. Thats what happens if you are not in compliance with the policy. Good Grief. The Principal of rules Compliance states that all members of D1 will be in compliance with all rules and policies of the NCAA. Im no lawyer but I read taht to say that if you have a hostile and abusive nick your out of compliance. They arent going to admit a school not in compliance. Good Grief! 8-)

[broke_back_mnt]

Until a UND team hosts a playoff game, or shows up at a post-season event wearing their Fighting Sioux jerseys, they are in compliance with NCAA rules.

I believe thats wrong too. Your arent eligible now. Its not when you pay the price its when you are violation. You are in violation now.

[IowaBisonToo]

Thanks, IowaBison. *:) *I will agree to disagree with you. *This is worth fighting for. *If it were PETA going after names such as Bison and Golden Gophers, I would feel the exact same way. *You make an interesting point about the resources used relative to the mission of the university. *This applies to the NCAA as well. *College athletics is riddled with much more important issues than this. *The NCAA has been running roughshod over people for too long, and it was time that someone said "Enough!" *I'm proud that it was UND. *No, I'm probably not the most objective person on this issue, but I can tell you that the support is overwhelmingly in favor of UND right now.

Great point, if PETA were to come out and say that the Bison or Gopher names are offensive and the NCAA would not allow NDSU or Minnesota to host any playoff events unless they got rid of their name this board would be in an uproar and all you know it. *
And you know that PETA isn't concerned with what an animals picture or depiction - unless it's considered inhumane which I can't think of anyone that has something like that (i.e. the smelly gopher guts ::)), they're concerned with what happens to the animal. Plus, we all know that anyone who belongs to PETA is certifiable nuts ;). *This is an apples/oranges comparison and YOU should know it. *If you're going to fight this, at least use a plausible excuse like Vikings or Fighting Irish, etc. *The lame-a** PETA thing is way over done and is only used becuase NDSU and UM have animals as mascots/nicknames - not a human.

I wonder if any of the brainiacs at UND have gone to the NCAA and asked if they changed the name from Fighting Sioux to just Sioux, if that would matter any - getting the green light from the tribes, of course. *Have you noticed that most if not all the teams (correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not about to waste my time trying to figure that out) allowed to keep their names were names of tribes without and adjective in front of it? *i.e. Seminoles, Utes (both only names of tribes) - no Indians, Redmen (both derogatory), Fighting Illini, Fighting Sioux (both describing what a tribe does). *Just something to think about. *Being that it HAS to be Fighting Sioux, it may cost you everything in the long run.

[BisonBacker]

Stop it IowaBison your making too much sense.

[IowaBisonToo]

Stop it IowaBison your making too much sense.
Sorry, I have a tendancy to think sometimes. ;) ;D

[WYOBISONMAN]

Until a UND team hosts a playoff game, or shows up at a post-season event wearing their Fighting Sioux jerseys, they are in compliance with NCAA rules.

I believe thats wrong too. *Your arent eligible now. *Its not when you pay the price its when you are violation. *You are in violation now.



Good point, if they were not in violation of the policy now, there would be nothing to sue over.

As for this PETA v. the Bison deal......that is really reaching..... ;D

[Hambone]

Stop it IowaBison your making too much sense.
Sorry, I have a tendancy to think sometimes. ;) ;D
I don't think I've seen anywhere either where anyone's asked whether dropping the "Fighting" would matter. That would be a good question to have answered, but I think that since they are also saying that Sioux means "snake" or whatever and that is part of the problem that makes it derogatory that they still would have trouble with just Sioux. But a good thought.....

[IowaBison]

the problem is that there are tribes who want to see it gone.

that gives the NCAA more than enough justification to do what its done

(let's not forget that it's a voluntary organization, for heaven's sake.)

[Bison_Dan]

the problem is that there are tribes who want to see it gone.

that gives the NCAA more than enough justification to do what its done

(let's not forget that it's a voluntary organization, for heaven's sake.)



That's the whole reason for the actions by the NCAA - the tribes - if und wasn't so arrogant in their past dealings with the tribes and sought out their support (like Florida State) and maybe cut them in on some royalties they woundn't be having this problem. Oh well sh*t like this usually comes back to haunt you.

[Shawn-O]

Whoa! :o You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole.

[BisonBacker]

the problem is that there are tribes who want to see it gone.

that gives the NCAA more than enough justification to do what its done

(let's not forget that it's a voluntary organization, for heaven's sake.)

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. This is exactly the point. If you don't like the rules then don't be a member of the orginization. If you want to play you play by the rules seems like a pretty simple concept :D

[TaTonka_31]

Let's get realistic here. This NCAA rule was caused by a few handfuls of people just to create a problem. There are many, many things in this world all of us have problems with but are forced to either ignor it, or not support it. Maybe I am sensitive to gambling issues. What chance is there for me to get the casino's out of the state? Answer: None People that are opposed to gambling get it shoved down their throats.

Bottom line is, I hope someone can litigate this ruling to the satisfaction of the schools involved and put this rule where it belongs and thats in the round file.

[IowaBison]

Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole.

that's a very valid criticism. as is the perogative of tribes to change their opinions.

[Shawn-O]

JBB said:

The failure to abide by the NCAA nickname policy means you cant host or use the nicknme in NCAA championship events. Thats what happens if you are not in compliance with the policy. Good Grief. The Principal of rules Compliance states that all members of D1 will be in compliance with all rules and policies of the NCAA. Im no lawyer but I read taht to say that if you have a hostile and abusive nick your out of compliance. They arent going to admit a school not in compliance. Good Grief!

The Principles of Compliance state:

2.8.3 Penalty for Noncompliance. An institution found to have violated the Association’s rules
shall be subject to such disciplinary and corrective actions as may be determined by the Association.

The NCAA's position states:

On August 4, 2005, the NCAA executive committee decided that "the Association (NCAA) shall implement a policy, effective February 1, 2006, that institutions with "hostile or abusive" racial/ethnic/national origin mascots, nicknames or imagery will be prohibited from hosting any NCAA national championship competition." [2] That is, although institutions may still keep such mascots, nicknames or imagery, such institutiions will not be allowed to host any NCAA national championship competition. Part of the reason why this ruling is a bit limited is because "these issues are complex and institutions need to retain institutional autonomy to address them." [3] However, the NCAA also has the "duty to address actions and behaviors that are not consistent with core values and principles of the NCAA constitution." [4] These core values and principles include diversity, nondiscrimination, and inclusion. [5] Thus, the NCAA has provided this limited rule, which attempts to preserve the autonomy of institutions while still remaining true to the purpose of the NCAA constitutional mission. It should be noted that the NCAA decision also limits other aspects of mascot representation, for example, on team jerseys, cheerleader uniforms, and band uniforms, during NCAA national championship play. [6] None of these measures apply to regular season or conference competition.


I'll leave it to you to come to your own conclusion. *As for me, UND is currently in violation. *The NCAA has stated what the penalties will be for violation of the policy. *No where in those stated penalties do I see division reclassification addressed. *

[IowaBison]

My, God, Shawn-O.

Learn to read!


[The NCAA's position states:

On August 4, 2005, the NCAA executive committee decided that "the Association (NCAA) shall implement a policy, effective February 1, 2006, that institutions with "hostile or abusive" racial/ethnic/national origin mascots, nicknames or imagery will be prohibited from hosting any NCAA national championship competition." [2] That is, although institutions may still keep such mascots, nicknames or imagery, such institutiions will not be allowed to host any NCAA national championship competition. Part of the reason why this ruling is a bit limited is because "these issues are complex and institutions need to retain institutional autonomy to address them." [3] However, the NCAA also has the "duty to address actions and behaviors that are not consistent with core values and principles of the NCAA constitution." [4] These core values and principles include diversity, nondiscrimination, and inclusion. [5] Thus, the NCAA has provided this limited rule, which attempts to preserve the autonomy of institutions while still remaining true to the purpose of the NCAA constitutional mission. It should be noted that the NCAA decision also limits other aspects of mascot representation, for example, on team jerseys, cheerleader uniforms, and band uniforms, during NCAA national championship play. [6] None of these measures apply to regular season or conference competition.

[SDbison]

This nickname crap has gone too far. The PC (liberal) movement that created this environment is to blame. The Indians (oops PC says Native Americans) are bitter and will play any card given. Stopping the use of the Sioux name is just a desperate effort on their part to mess up something good and give themselves a sense of power over non-indian culture. As for the Seminoles giving permission, it figures that the corrupt NCAA would approve of money over substance (can you say bowl games versus playoffs). If a nickname is wrong, it is wrong period. No exceptions. Letting Florida state off the hook and going after other universities is wrong. I may not like UND, but I hope they somehow win the lawsuit and keep their name.

[Shawn-O]

My, God, Shawn-O. Learn to read! *:)

I know many of you could care less, and that's fine. *For those that find it interesting, I'm just trying to interject some facts to go along with the emotion. *

[IowaBison]

it's appreciated. i learned alot from pcm over at siouxsports a while ago too.

[TaTonka_31]

This nickname crap has gone too far. *The PC (liberal) movement that created this environment is to blame. *The Indians (oops PC says Native Americans) are bitter and will play any card given. *Stopping the use of the Sioux name is just a desperate effort on their part to mess up something good and give themselves a sense of power over non-indian culture. *As for the Seminoles giving permission, it figures that the corrupt NCAA would approve of money over substance (can you say bowl games versus playoffs). *If a nickname is wrong, it is wrong period. *No exceptions. *Letting Florida state off the hook and going after other universities is wrong. *I may not like UND, but I hope they somehow win the lawsuit and keep their name. *

Great post, I am with you 100%. It definitely is a double standard. The whole thing stinks.

[broke_back_mnt]

Whoa! * :o *You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? *I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". * Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole. *

Good post Shawn-O. *It shows there is trouble seeing the forest for the trees. *The reason the name is hostile and abusive is because the community being exploited is opposed to its use.

The idea of a dbl standard is a failure to understand the NCAA postion. Without approval of the exploited community the use of the name creates a hostile and abusive atmosphere. The offending tribe has asked that the image an name be dropped. The NCAA supports that position.

[BisBison]

This nickname crap has gone too far. *The PC (liberal) movement that created this environment is to blame. *The Indians (oops PC says Native Americans) are bitter and will play any card given. *Stopping the use of the Sioux name is just a desperate effort on their part to mess up something good and give themselves a sense of power over non-indian culture. *As for the Seminoles giving permission, it figures that the corrupt NCAA would approve of money over substance (can you say bowl games versus playoffs). *If a nickname is wrong, it is wrong period. *No exceptions. *Letting Florida state off the hook and going after other universities is wrong. *I may not like UND, but I hope they somehow win the lawsuit and keep their name. *

Great post, I am with you 100%. *It definitely is a double standard. *The whole thing stinks.

I too agree in substance, but one difference is the Seminoles name is what the Seminole tribe called themselves. The Sioux name was given to the Lakota tribe by their enemys. It means snake.

[Shawn-O]

Whoa! * :o *You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? *I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". * Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole. *

Good post Shawn-O. *It shows there is trouble seeing the forest for the trees. *The reason the name is hostile and abusive is because the community being exploited is opposed to its use.

The idea of a dbl standard is a failure to understand the NCAA postion. *Without approval of the exploited community the use of the name creates a hostile and abusive atmosphere. *The offending tribe has asked that the image an name be dropped. *The NCAA supports that position.

"Approval of the exploited community" is a slippery slope. Case in point:

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650191343,00.html

Again, I'll let you draw your own conclusions. To me, this is a shakedown, pure and simple.

[lonelygriz]

Whoa! * :o *You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? *I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". * Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole. *

Good post Shawn-O. *It shows there is trouble seeing the forest for the trees. *The reason the name is hostile and abusive is because the community being exploited is opposed to its use.

The idea of a dbl standard is a failure to understand the NCAA postion. *Without approval of the exploited community the use of the name creates a hostile and abusive atmosphere. *The offending tribe has asked that the image an name be dropped. *The NCAA supports that position.

"Approval of the exploited community" is a slippery slope. *Case in point:

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650191343,00.html

Again, I'll let you draw your own conclusions. *To me, this is a shakedown, pure and simple. *

To sum it up, what else do barristers have to do?

[SDbison]

Whoa! * :o *You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? *I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". * Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole. *

Good post Shawn-O. *It shows there is trouble seeing the forest for the trees. *The reason the name is hostile and abusive is because the community being exploited is opposed to its use.

The idea of a dbl standard is a failure to understand the NCAA postion. *Without approval of the exploited community the use of the name creates a hostile and abusive atmosphere. *The offending tribe has asked that the image an name be dropped. *The NCAA supports that position.

So by your logic JBB, if any "community" or "community leader" objects to something it should be deemed "hostle and abusive". *Exploited? Its just an F'ing word. *So how is it used to the poor Indians disadvantage? *This whole thing is a bunch of BS. *I have absolutely no sympathy for the Indians. *They use this $hit as an excuse to make trouble. *I am offended by their belief that they own the title "Sioux". *Again, if this logic is used all Scandinavians should hold the Vikings football team hostage until they pay them their fair share. *
JBB, knowing your past posts about UND it is obvious you want UND to suffer because it makes you happy. *But then again maybe you are really one of those societal control freaks who want everything to be politically correct. *Maybe it is about time the Indians focus on the ten or so other major problems they have as a disfunctional culture rather than bitch about a nickname. *Yeah, git rid of the "Sioux" nickname and all their problems go away. *::) *Give me and all the other reasonable people in this country a break! * :P
*

[BisonBacker]

Whoa! * :o *You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? *I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". * Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole. *

Good post Shawn-O. *It shows there is trouble seeing the forest for the trees. *The reason the name is hostile and abusive is because the community being exploited is opposed to its use.

The idea of a dbl standard is a failure to understand the NCAA postion. *Without approval of the exploited community the use of the name creates a hostile and abusive atmosphere. *The offending tribe has asked that the image an name be dropped. *The NCAA supports that position.

So by your logic JBB, if any "community" or "community leader" objects to something it should be deemed "hostle and abusive". *Exploited? Its just an F'ing word. *So how is it used to the poor Indians disadvantage? *This whole thing is a bunch of BS. *I have absolutely no sympathy for the Indians. *They use this $hit as an excuse to make trouble. *I am offended by their belief that they own the title "Sioux". *Again, if this logic is used all Scandinavians should hold the Vikings football team hostage until they pay them their fair share. *
JBB, knowing your past posts about UND it is obvious you want UND to suffer because it makes you happy. *But then again maybe you are really one of those societal control freaks who want everything to be politically correct. *Maybe it is about time the Indians focus on the ten or so other major problems they have as a disfunctional culture rather than bitch about a nickname. *Yeah, git rid of the "Sioux" nickname and all their problems go away. *::) *Give me and all the other reasonable people in this country a break! * :P
*


I think what the main point here that people are missing like it or not really isn't even about the name issue. I actually agree that it's nitpicking and pretty much bullshit but the main point is this. The NCAA is not an orginization that UND has to belong to. Its not mandatory it's voluntary. With that being said if they want to enforce whatever rules they have in place it's their right to do so. This reminds me of other cases where someone doesn't like the rules of a given orginization so they get a lawsuit ie. (boy scouts, girl scouts, PGA tour) ect. This is not rocket science folks like it or not the NCAA can enforce the rules as they see fit. This has nothing to do with a like or dislike of UND or any other orginization, unless someone's civil rights are being violated and public money's are being used to support such orginizations then I say private entities should be allowed to enforce their own rules and standards as long as they fall within the laws or our society. Why is this so hard for people to understand? :-/

[DIBISON]

Just change the ---- nickname to sioux and move on. It has already started. This issue has been going on for too long and it is time to move on,

[BisonBacker]

Just change the ---- nickname to sioux and move on. *It has already started. *This issue has been going on for too long and it is time to move on,

Agreed+++++++++++++++

[Shawn-O]

Just change the ---- nickname to sioux and move on. *It has already started. *This issue has been going on for too long and it is time to move on,

Unless you know something I don't, the NCAA won't let this fly. If that were the compromise, it should have been a done deal long ago.

[BisBison]

yawn I'm bored with this whole discourse. I don't care what they call themselves. Until their admin shows some respect our way I'd just as soon ignore them.

[DIBISON]

I am bored by this subject and could care less, but to respond to Shawn I have been told that it is the "Fighting" that causes the problem. The Sioux would be acceptable to the Tribes and the tribe support is what is critical to an NCAA reversal. But it really doesn't matter as und will be filing the lawsuit against the NCAA.

[Mr._Bill]

Just change the ---- nickname to sioux and move on. *It has already started. *This issue has been going on for too long and it is time to move on,

Unless you know something I don't, the NCAA won't let this fly. *If that were the compromise, it should have been a done deal long ago. *

This is the public action that should have occured 2+ years ago. Make a public move the change the name to "Sioux" only, and then do everything possible to reach out to the tribes. They could have possibly moved to a support position, instead of today current position by the tribes. It seems like (my past reading) there has always been an attitude of "we will do what we want" from the top people at UND. That attitude won't fly.

[Gully]

I'm obviously a Bison fan but I still think this is a bunch of PC crap. The mascot was not intended to offend or degrade anyone, nor did NDSU fans tend to degrade Native Americans when we chanted Sioux Suck. It's just having fun and cheering against the other team.

That said, at some point all of the negative publicity and wasted money must make und ask, "is it really worth it?" I think they should move on because they're going to lose this eventually.

[broke_back_mnt]

Some people are irrational and angry, unable to discuss things without flying off the handle. *Unable to accept another point of view. * Your welcome to your point of view. *Assulting the tribes, or myself for that matter, is not a winning position for you. *In fact it makes you look unreasonable, unthinking and unable to support your own ideas with rational thought and expression. *Now you dont want to appear that way do you? *;)

Where is the double standard? *The criteria are set by the NCAA and have been applied equally to everyone. *Tribal support is the key. *Those that dont have it are not given grace. *The interesting question is this:

Why hasnt the university been able to work with the tribes?

BisonBacker has it right.

*

[SDbison]

Some people are irrational and angry, unable to discuss things without flying off the handle. *Unable to accept another point of view. * Your welcome to your point of view. *Assulting the tribes, or myself for that matter, is not a winning position for you. *In fact it makes you look unreasonable, unthinking and unable to support your own ideas with rational thought and expression. *Now you dont want to appear that way do you? *;)

Where is the double standard? *The criteria are set by the NCAA and have been applied equally to everyone. *Tribal support is the key. *Those that dont have it are not given grace. *The interesting question is this:

Why hasnt the university been able to work with the tribes?

BisonBacker has it right.

*
Poor JBB, someone disagreed with you and immediately you throw out the "hostle and abusive" label. I didn't assault you at all. I believe I also made some points which make sense. But in these times of political correctness common sense is no longer used and everything is up for questioning (especially if you are a minority group). As far as I am concerned the tribes haven't approached the topic with an attitude of compromise either.
At this point I don't give a crap anymore. Give the cry babies their way. The best part is that removing all the indian mascot names in the world isn't going to make the indians any better. They need to first improve themselves.
So what is next, reparations?

[lonelygriz]

They should partner up in a casino. And sell SIOUX stuff.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +

[broke_back_mnt]

I'll tell you something about this Minnesota game. *We have a lot more tape of them! * ;D ;D ;D

Oh yea, because of this thread, Im never voting republican again! 8-)

[lonelygriz]

Will this ever get resolved? Or will the Red Pepper move to Fargo first.
I thought it had?

[SDbison]

Thread Hijack Alert (last 3 posts). *Post on topic, or start your own drivel elsewhere. * ;)

[broke_back_mnt]

Whoa! * :o *You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? *I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". * Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole. *

I dont think thats true. *It takes an action of the Tribe. *If singular voices carried the day the nick would be approved. *There are singular voices out there, in the Tribal community, that support its use. *All action against its use has been by Tribal Committee.

[TransAmBison]

Whoa! * :o *You mean this thing is really about a piece of the money pie? *I thought it was about the NCAA facilitating an enviornment at their events that is not "hostile and abusive". * Remember, all it takes is for one tribal leader to "want it gone", regardless of the sentiment of the tribe as a whole. *

I dont think thats true. *It takes an action of the Tribe. *If singular voices carried the day the nick would be approved. *There are singular voices out there, in the Tribal community, that support its use. *All action against its use has been by Tribal Committee.

Actually, I think (not positive) the whole issue started a number of years ago by a group of pc turds who just wanted to protest something.

[broke_back_mnt]

PC comes from the left. Its something you should think about when your in the voting booth. Personally I am from the right and opposed to all of this, but under the circumstances I have picked sides and am enjoying it. ;D

[WYOBISONMAN]

Let's keep the politics out of this.

[broke_back_mnt]

This entire thread is politics. Talking about the PC crowd is a political statement. I say lock the thread.

[Shawn-O]

Where is the double standard? *The criteria are set by the NCAA and have been applied equally to everyone. *Tribal support is the key. *Those that dont have it are not given grace.

Why hasn't William and Mary been removed from the list of colleges and universitys subject to restrictions?

http://www.wm.edu/news/?id=5975


..the (NCAA) staff committee recognized, as the College argued, that the term “Tribe” appropriately highlights a historical connection with the education of Native Americans that was part of the College’s founding mission, and that the College “has support from the Virginia tribal leaders” for its nickname. Nonetheless, the staff committee concluded that the College was in violation of the policy.

Now if I were an attorney, I'd find that quite interesting. The NCAA committee acknowledged that W&M had tribal support. Why not apply the criteria the same way as it was applied at FSU, CMU, Utah? There is a double standard, there is NCAA hyprocrisy, and the lawsuit is warranted, my friends.

[southpaw]

I too agree in substance, but one difference is the Seminoles name is what the Seminole tribe called themselves. The Sioux name was given to the Lakota tribe by their enemys. It means snake.

it's already been shown that sioux does not mean snake... sioux is short for naddesioux (sp?) (given to native americans by the french). either way, the closest sioux tribe to und, the spirit lake sioux, have given official approval for und to keep the nickname. they granted it in 2000 and have not taken any action to reverse it, even with the recent ncaa action.

if you look at central michigan... their nickname is the chippewas and they only have support from 1 chippewa tribe in michigan. it happens to be the closest one and that was the main reason why the ncaa approved their nickname. double standard all over the place.

[lakesbison]

ZZZZ>> WHO THE HELL CARES!!!


SEE MY SmACK TALK THREAD!!!!

[broke_back_mnt]

Well Shawn O, why dont you (Und) sue? *You point fingers here and there and maybe it will work without tribal support? *Why would your leadership court Tribal support in a meaningful way? *

Naturally offering tuition benefits and some courses is a great start, but what about all the merchandise sales? *Where's the fair share of that? *I guess its ok for the North Dakota taxpayers to pick up the tab for the trademark but nothing from merchandise sales, right? *

Yea, sue the rest of your "peer institutions" so you can run a trademark on the cheap. *Don't pay the owner's, sue them. * ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D *

Ive seen this from Und before and highly recommend no scheduling and no affiliation in athletics for NDSU. *
* 8-)

[Bisonguy]

I too agree in substance, but one difference is the Seminoles name is what the Seminole tribe called themselves. The Sioux name was given to the Lakota tribe by their enemys. It means snake.

it's already been shown that sioux does not mean snake... sioux is short for naddesioux (sp?) (given to native americans by the french). * either way, the closest sioux tribe to und, the spirit lake sioux, have given official approval for und to keep the nickname. *they granted it in 2000 and have not taken any action to reverse it, even with the recent ncaa action.

if you look at central michigan... their nickname is the chippewas and they only have support from 1 chippewa tribe in michigan. *it happens to be the closest one and that was the main reason why the ncaa approved their nickname. *double standard all over the place.

Please provide any credible evidence that the Spirit Lake tribe actually gave approval of the nickname.

The resolution in 2000 stated that they did not disapprove of the nickname, a far cry from giving the rubber stamp of approval . Throw in the Spirit Lake general assembly's vote in 2005 which declared the nickname, "an affront to the dignity and well-being of the members of Spirit Lake." (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/other/2005-08-31-sioux-logo_x.htm), and the issue is far from the absolutes you paint it to be.

[Shawn-O]

Well Shawn O, why dont you (Und) sue? *You point fingers here and there and maybe it will work without tribal support? *Why would your leadership court Tribal support in a meaningful way? *

Naturally offering tuition benefits and some courses is a great start, but what about all the merchandise sales? *Where's the fair share of that? *I guess its ok for the North Dakota taxpayers to pick up the tab for the trademark but nothing from merchandise sales, right? *

Yea, sue the rest of your "peer institutions" so you can run a trademark on the cheap. *Don't pay the owner's, sue them. * ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D *

Ive seen this from Und before and highly recommend no scheduling and no affiliation in athletics for NDSU. *
* 8-)

Did you even read the post? W&M has tribal support, the NCAA chooses to ignore it. UND could reach out to the tribes for support yet again, the NCAA can choose to ignore it. Ah, the merchandise sales. Which N.D. taxpayers are you referring to, JBB? Perhaps you've captured the essence of what the NCAA characterizes as a "special relationship between Florida State University and the Seminole Tribe". ;D ;D ;D ;D

And where do you connect the dots that suing the NCAA is equivalent to suing the member institutions? Help me understand. Consider it returning the favor for me helping you understand that this matter has ZERO to do with division reclassification.

[broke_back_mnt]

I was just talking about the taxpayers that are picking up the cost for all the special programs. The merchandise sales speak for themselves. *

Just pay the Man!! * ;D ;D

When you sue the NCAA you sue its members. Thats what the NCAA is, a collection of its members.

[bincitysioux]

Lost in all this PC crap is the fact that while the NCAA is trying to protect North Dakota Native Americans from the hostility and abusiveness of the Fighting Sioux logo and nickname, the NCAA would have no problem with Florida State coming to the Alerus Center, and having a white guy dressed as Cheif Osceola ride in the arena on a horse wearing his fully feathered head-dress and plant a flaming spear into the 50-yard line. Arbitrary and capricious to say the least. I am thinking of some other adjectives myself. >:(

[IowaBison]

What I find most offensive about Osceola is that he dressed in Plains Indian garb and behaves as if he is a member of a tribe that existed 100 years ago in place 1500 miles away from Tallahassee.

That seriously bugs the sh%t out of me.

(Interesting that the Seminoles can give FSU permission to use any Native American imagery, including that which is obviously not related to their heritage.)

[broke_back_mnt]

Start paying the roayalties and you too can have your chief leading the way in the D2 playoffs! *Just pay the man! *Flordia did.

Do they have a concrete penetrating spear tip now?

[BisonBacker]

Lost in all this PC crap is the fact that while the NCAA is trying to protect North Dakota Native Americans from the hostility and abusiveness of the Fighting Sioux logo and nickname, the NCAA would have no problem with Florida State coming to the Alerus Center, and having a white guy dressed as Cheif Osceola ride in the arena on a horse wearing his fully feathered head-dress and plant a flaming spear into the 50-yard line. *Arbitrary and capricious to say the least. *I am thinking of some other adjectives myself. * >:(

Why is it you have to have "fighting sioux" as opposed to just the Sioux name? *