Fargo (city pop.) may have already reached 100,000

[TheBisonator]

According to my calculations, the city of Fargo's population on February 1, 2005 should be 100,357.

(This is the statistics freak in me talking now, BTW, so you don't have to read this if you don't want)

I figured this out by using the daily growth rate over a 10-year period (3,652 days) from 1990 to 2000 for the city (It grew by 16,488 people from 4/1/90 to 4/1/2000). I figured in that same growth rate from 4/1/00 to 4/1/10, and came up with a number of 110,755 (growth of 20,156) at the next census. Then I calculated 20,156 divided by 3,652, then multiplied by the number of days from 4/1/2000 to 2/1/2005 (1,768), and I came up with today's population of 100,357. I also figured out that the city reached 100,000 people on November 28 of last year.

Although this is working with a fixed model. There are also variables involved (decrease/increase in housing units or average number per household), but I think those actually tip the number in favor of it being higher than lower. In other words, 100,357 might be a pretty conservative estimate.

Sorry I had to bother you, I'm just excited that Fargo may have passed a huge milestone. In case you didn't notice, I have a huge interest in city planning and statistics.

[IowaBison]

I think you're probably a couple of years off.

I've done a little demography work myself, which I too think is quite interesting.

The most recent Census estimate (2003) has the city at between 91,000 and 92,000. These numbers are often quite off, but I think your values are somewhat optimistic. IMO, Cass County has grown at most by 12,000 in the last 4 years, with nearly half in the Non-Fargo Metro.

If you're really interested you should check out "The Methods and Materials of Demography". It's a thick book, but not very technically demanding.

[TheBisonator]

Just for the record, the 2004 population estimate for Fargo (city) from the city government (not the Census Bureau) was 97,807.

[greenandgold01]

Just for the record, the 2004 population estimate for Fargo (city) from the city government (not the Census Bureau) was 97,807.


But the census numbers are the ones that count as far as funding goes.

The MSA popilation (Cass + Clay counties) is the important one.

[TheBisonator]

Which is 179,121 at last count, BTW. I agree that MSA numbers are the most important.

I was just talking about the city though. I know that figure isn't an important one, but it's good for morale and the city's psyche (and the state's) that a North Dakota city finally has over 100,000 people.

[greenandgold01]

Which is 179,121 at last count, BTW. I agree that MSA numbers are the most important.

I was just talking about the city though. I know that figure isn't an important one, but it's good for morale and the city's psyche (and the state's) that a North Dakota city finally has over 100,000 people.


We have 3 markets over 100k: Bismark, GF, and Fargo.

[TheBisonator]

Yeah, but I'm talking about just the city (inside city limits).

Fargo has over 100,000, Bismarck probably has about 61,000 and Grand Forks has around 51,000.

I do agree that metro numbers matter the most.

[IowaBison]

Just for the record, the 2004 population estimate for Fargo (city) from the city government (not the Census Bureau) was 97,807.

where did you find that number?

[Bisonguy]

The only number that I've seen is Fargo estimated at 94k in 2002.

[TheBisonator]

where did you find that number?

The city conducts a tally of residents (seperated by neighbourhoods) every year. In 2004, the populations of all the Fargo neighbourhoods added up to 97,807.

Not many people know this, but that's how the city does its annual population estimates.

[IowaBison]

i know how it's done, what i would like is a reference :)

[TheBisonator]

Here's the link to the web page that featured the 2004 estimates:

Click on a neighbourhood to see the annual estimate and other info:
http://www.ci.fargo.nd.us/neighborhoods/

Here's an example - Bluemont Lakes Neighbourhood, 2004 pop. 4,829.
http://www.ci.fargo.nd.us/neighborhoods/neighborhood.asp?n=5

[IowaBison]

found it, don't believe it (completely), but found it

[bisonranch]

Fargo's population grew by 22% from 1990-2000. If the growth rate has remained the same, that puts the 2005 population just over 100K. That assumes a lot though...

[greenandgold01]

Fargo's population grew by 22% from 1990-2000. If the growth rate has remained the same, that puts the 2005 population just over 100K. That assumes a lot though...


13.7%, actually.

Sioux Falls grew 23.8%!

Assuming both cities keep receiving rural migraters, both populations should get to 200k in 10-20 years.

[TheBisonator]

13.7%, actually.


Wrong. Where did you pull that number out from??

Fargo grew by 22.5 percent from 1990 to 2000.

1990: 74,111
2000: 90,599

2004 est: 97,807
Right now est.: 100,400

90,599 divided by 74,111 equals 1.225, or 122.5 percent. minus 100 gets you at 22.5 percent.

I just cannot STAND people around here who think Sioux Falls is growing faster than Fargo. They're both growing at roughly the same rate, and the Fargo-Moorhead urban area has about 25,000 more people than the Sioux Falls urban area.

I've mastered these figures. I'm a statistics freak. I know this 100%. Just TRUST ME when I tell these figures to you.

[TheBisonator]

found it, don't believe it (completely), but found it

Why don't you believe it??

We're not Grand Forks. We don't cook our population numbers like they do.

97,807 in 2004 is completely believeable if you take into account the growth rate (which I heard has actually been rising to almost 2.5 percent annually)

People, I have TONS of knowledge on this topic. I'm not lacking in ethos here. I've been studying this kind of thing most of my life. Just trust me when I give these figures.

[somebison]

Wrong. Where did you pull that number out from??

Fargo grew by 22.5 percent from 1990 to 2000.

1990: 74,111
2000: 90,599

2004 est: 97,807
Right now est.: 100,400

90,599 divided by 74,111 equals 1.225, or 122.5 percent. minus 100 gets you at 22.5 percent.

I just cannot STAND people around here who think Sioux Falls is growing faster than Fargo. They're both growing at roughly the same rate, and the Fargo-Moorhead urban area has about 25,000 more people than the Sioux Falls urban area.

I've mastered these figures. I'm a statistics freak. I know this 100%. Just TRUST ME when I tell these figures to you.

I get 22.25%

(90,599-74,111)/74111

[TheBisonator]

Hmmm... I got 22.2477095.

My mistake, it's 22.25% rounded up, not 22.5% rounded up. I didn't see the 2. Sowwy.

[Bisonguy]

I get 22.19%

(90,599-74,111)/74111

I get 0.22247709516805872272672072971624 ???

[somebison]

I get 0.22247709516805872272672072971624 *???


8) ;) ;D

[greenandgold01]

Wrong. Where did you pull that number out from??

Fargo grew by 22.5 percent from 1990 to 2000.

1990: 74,111
2000: 90,599

2004 est: 97,807
Right now est.: 100,400

90,599 divided by 74,111 equals 1.225, or 122.5 percent. minus 100 gets you at 22.5 percent.

I just cannot STAND people around here who think Sioux Falls is growing faster than Fargo. They're both growing at roughly the same rate, and the Fargo-Moorhead urban area has about 25,000 more people than the Sioux Falls urban area.

I've mastered these figures. I'm a statistics freak. I know this 100%. Just TRUST ME when I tell these figures to you.

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdf

Read it and weep, my friend.

Wrong on all 3 accounts.

[Bisonguy]

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdf

Read it and weep, my friend.

Wrong on all 3 accounts.


That's the Fargo-Moorhead Metro Area Stats. This thread started as talking strictly about Fargo, not including the metro and surrounding areas- The numbers you gave have nothing to do with the population within the city limits of Fargo.

From your link-

Census 2000 PHC-T-3. Ranking Tables for Metropolitan Areas: 1990 and 2000
Table 3: Metropolitan Areas Ranked by Population: 2000

The Metropolitan Area for Fargo is defined as Cass County in ND and Clay County in MN combined.

[Bisonguy]

Here's the link for the Fargo stats from the U.S. Census Bureau-http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/38/3825700.html

Don't know where they get it, but they show a population increase of 22.1% from 1990 to 2000, with the 2000 census at 90,599.

Here's a link to the City of Fargo site that breaks down the census numbers from 1990 and 2000- http://www.ci.fargo.nd.us/Planning/data.htm#Fargo%20Then%20and%20Now

[greenandgold01]

IMO, the market population numbers are the most important.

[IowaBison]

Why don't you believe it??

We're not Grand Forks. We don't cook our population numbers like they do.

97,807 in 2004 is completely believeable if you take into account the growth rate (which I heard has actually been rising to almost 2.5 percent annually)

People, I have TONS of knowledge on this topic. I'm not lacking in ethos here. I've been studying this kind of thing most of my life. *Just trust me when I give these figures.

I think the numbers are a LITTLE optimistic.

I think the population per household in the developed areas of Fargo have fallen ever so slightly. *

I also think that the rapid development of South and Southwest Fargo has led to a dramatic increase in the number of apartment units available, but the method the City uses probably assumes they are immediately occupied at the same rate as adjacent ones with the same size of households.

I'd say they are probably reasonable estimates for early 2005. *We'll know in eight years where Fargo is out when the official census numbers come out.

That being said, let's quite talking about unimportant things and get back to talking about Bison Athletics! ;)

[JACKGUYII]

Wrong. Where did you pull that number out from??

Fargo grew by 22.5 percent from 1990 to 2000.

1990: 74,111
2000: 90,599

2004 est: 97,807
Right now est.: 100,400

90,599 divided by 74,111 equals 1.225, or 122.5 percent. minus 100 gets you at 22.5 percent.

I just cannot STAND people around here who think Sioux Falls is growing faster than Fargo. They're both growing at roughly the same rate, and the Fargo-Moorhead urban area has about 25,000 more people than the Sioux Falls urban area.

I've mastered these figures. I'm a statistics freak. I know this 100%. Just TRUST ME when I tell these figures to you.

Bisonator-Sioux Falls is growing at a faster rate than Fargo so get over it. I can't stand people who think they need to include a population of people living in another state to try and make your point. Sioux Falls has been over 100,000 people for many years without including Luverne and Worthington Minnesota.

[IowaBison]

Its called a metropolitan area, Jackguy, get over it! :P

[JACKGUYII]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For the federally defined metorpolitan areas for the two, Sioux Falls ranks 201 and Fargo 215 as of 2002. *Sioux Falls Metro is about 10% bigger even including the Minnesota part of the Fargo metro.

http://www.proximityone.com/msa03us.htm

For rate of growth, the following graphic shows and the above table both show Sioux Falls metro growing much more rapidly

http://proximityone.com/images1/msapopchg0003.gif

I believe that the Fargo Metro had a larger population in 1990 but Sioux Falls passed Fargo before 2000 an the difference is getting bigger as shown by the tables. *


BISONATOR-TRY THESE UPDATED APPLES!

[JACKGUYII]

Percent Change in Population from 4/1/00-7/1/02
201 ranked Sioux Falls + 4.04 change
215 ranked Fargo + 1.55 change
219 ranked St Cloud + 2.86 change
260 ranked Sioux City - 0.18 change
300 ranked Rapid City + 2.20 change
341 ranked Bismarck, + 1.72 change
342 ranked Grand Forks - 1.48 change
« Last Edit: Today

Case closed on the discussion over which city Sioux Falls or Fargo is growing faster. Poor Grand Forks and Sioux City!

[bisonranch]

Even if Sioux Falls is bigger size isn't everything. Sioux Falls is arguably the nicer town but there's still a lot more happening in Fargo (concerts, entertainment). Sioux Falls is like a larger version of Bismarck without the big river.

I'm sure some will disagree, rip away.

[MRBISON]

Why are the Jack fans concerned about the population comparison between Sioux Falls and Fargo anyway? Brookings is like 50-60 miles from Sioux Falls. Just wondering :-/

[JACKGUYII]

Just having some fun with Bisonator who started this topic and claims to be a master stats expert. When another Bison fan indicated that in fact Sioux Falls was growing at a faster rate than Fargo he went into a tirade about how much he hates when people make this claim. I'm no closet stats person but was curious which regional city is bigger and is growing at a faster rate. I don't live in either but think both cities have a lot to offer its residents and am glad to see both are prospering.

[JACKGUYII]

In order for SDSU to continue to prosper in terms of enrollment, athletic attendence,advertising etc. the booming metro area of Sioux Falls will play a big role. If NDSU was in Jamestown you would see the analogy. SDSU will play Creighton and Univ of Minnesota in Baseball and Cal Davis in football in Sioux Falls to engage this market. Sorry, Little off track

[greenandgold01]

SDSU isn't in Sioux Falls. The university of Sioux Falls and Augustana are.


And the only numbers that matter officially are the 2000 census.

[JACKGUYII]

SDSU is the DI university of South Dakota which includes
the largest city in the Dakotas (SIOUX FALLS). The only population number that matters is the most recent one.

[roadwarrior]

I wish 1234 was still around for this discussion ;D

[somebison]

I wish 1234 was still around for this discussion ;D

I'm not sure he isn't :o :o

[JACKGUYII]

I don't think you can ever shut down 1234 you can only hope to contain him!

[SDbison]

I have some interesting points in the discussion of the tale of two cities (Sioux Falls & Fargo Moorhead). Regardless of all the stats quoted both metro areas are relatively about the same size and are having close to the same growth rates. Background......I grew up in the FM area and graduated from NDSU. After graduation I lived in Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Seattle and Phoenix before taking a job in Sioux Falls (I have lived in SF for 11 years). Much as Sioux Falls is an OK place there is a big difference in the attitudes and environment of the two cities. Yeah, Sioux Falls has slightly warmer temperatures overall, but you might think some here believe the South in South Dakota means south of the Mason Dixon line. Clearly SD is in the Midwest.
SF has several issues that may cause the city to have shortalls in revenue in the future and possible issues with too many lower income citizens that will contribute to the former. Other than doctors and lawyers the city is lacking good technology and manufacturing jobs. There are all sorts of credit card processing jobs that pay $8 per hour and then there is a Morrells Meat Packing plant in the middle of the city, not to mention a big rock quarry on the near west side. Factor in the lack of a major school (two private schools, each smaller than Concordia) and the lack of a large indoor venue (the ancient Arena that seats a whopping 5000) make Sioux Falls more like a big town, not a city. Sioux Falls relies on watching small time pro leagues for hockey, arena football, and basketball rather than following SDSU, Augie or Univ of SF. Sioux Falls has an old 1960's tin shed for an indoor ice rink. Surrounding smaller communities of Brookings, Mitchell and Sioux City have more, newer and much nicer ice facilities.
JackguyII get real......Sioux Falls has little or nothing to do with SDSU / Brookings and vice-versa. Brookings is in another county that is not tied into the Sioux Falls metro area.
As for Bisonranch's comments you are entitled to your opinion, but have you really lived in both Fargo and Sioux Falls?
My brief summary:
Fargo Moorhead.....cosmopoliton and progressive
Sioux Falls.....small town and backward

[bisonranch]

As for Bisonranch's comments you are entitled to your opinion, but have you really lived in both Fargo and Sioux Falls?
My brief summary:
Fargo Moorhead.....cosmopoliton and progressive
Sioux Falls.....small town and backward

I did college at NDSU and I live near SF now. I agree with much of your assessment. I said SF is arguably nicer because it has some hills (i'm from west ND, not flat land), more trees, and downtown SF is more renovated and alive. Downtown Fargo will improve with the Broadway project, is that done yet? Fargo has more industrial jobs which doesn't do much for a city's looks but is obviously better to have than not. There are more good paying jobs for engineers in regional small towns around SF than in the town itself which is sad. I'm also really surprised people there don't care more about the 'yotes and rabbits. DI sports not too far north and no one seems to care. Sioux Falls Arena attracts next to nothing and is smaller than the civic center in Bis. I think it's a nice town with great services, but Fargo area has the same services and you don't have to drive to Omaha to see a concert. I'd rather be by Fargo :-/

[JACKGUYII]

If you both hate Sioux Falls so much why do you continue to languish in such a backward community and instead move back to the progressive confines of the Fargo/Moorhead are. I agree Sioux Falls needs the proposed dowtown 12,000 seat Events Center and Recreation Center to happen soon to keep up with other regional cities. I would argue the arts with the Washington Pavillion etc. are better than anything Fargo has. I also will take South Dakota's lack of corporate and individual income tax anyday. The dowtown Sioux Falls area is on the verge of exploding with the completion of the Phillips to Falls. I'm not going to stoop to taking shots at Fargo as a city as I've said before I think both cities have a lot to offer as evidenced by their stellar growth. I have lived in many major cities around the country and will take life in the midwest anyday.

[Bisonguy]

LOL- This "rivalry" thing might take off after all. ;D

Just as NDSU and SDSU are peers, I think Fargo and Sioux Falls are peers, as well. Both are the economic engines and largest cities in states that are pretty comparable.

JACKYGUYII-
Out of curiousity, do you have any links for the arts in Sioux Falls?

[insane_ponderer]

i am not sure souix falls has art....j/k


but don't forget the world renowned terry redlin museum north of brookings in watertown. ::)

[JACKGUYII]

www.siouxfalls.com
Go to sioux falls living and arts and entertainment. The Washington Pavillion is one of the best Performance Halls in the country.

[bisonranch]

If you both hate Sioux Falls so much why do you continue to languish in such a backward community and instead move back to the progressive confines of the Fargo/Moorhead are.
I never said I hated it. It just needs a few things especially in the entertainment area, but it's got a good start. And ya, the Pavillion is a cool place. I don't know much about the SD tax structure, but I know both Dakotas are much better than MN.

If you want my honest assessment, it snows more in Fargo. Fargo wins :P

[SDbison]

To JackguyII:
I never said I hated Sioux Falls either!!!!!!
But that is no longer a big deal since I moved north of Sioux Falls last year. Have to find out if Bisonranch is in my neighborhood.
As for all my comments I tried to at least give SF some positive talk (slightly better weather) and I might agree with Bisonranch, SF has a few hills in parts of the town.
As for city planning SF has to be one of the worst.
I tried to talk with city engineers about making sure 57th St. west of I-29 was wide enough before they built it........within a year traffic backs up for over a half mile in the morning. Also asked about an I-29 on / off ramp at 57th before the bridge was built to ease the burden on 41st street.....no way! Seems local businessman have a lock on assuring everyone dumps onto their store front streets no matter how crowded they are.
As for the Sioux Falls Pavillion.....seems the expensive old high school has a history of always being in the red. The snooty types got their fancy symphony location on the backs of the SF taxpayers. A new events center would have served the community better. Just think of all the revenue lost (gas, food, lodging, etc) when concerts are instead hosted elsewhere. As for the new events center, already long overdue, there has been no real progress, and final location, plans and cost are not even close to being presented to SF citizens. It will be 5 years minimum until there is a new events center. What a joke for a so called 150,000 population city. And how about the lack of ice arenas......I have to drive 30 to 60 minutes to Luverne, Mitchell, Sioux City or Brookings (all quite small compared to Sioux Falls except Sioux City) to find much newer, multiple sheets of ice in a quality facility. What does Sioux Falls have, a 1960's tin shed. The ignorant city fathers have all but driven youth hockey out of Sioux Falls, but there are 10,000 acres of soccer fields.
Yes I live near SF and have a good job. I am just frustrated and fed up with a city that is so narrow minded and yes backward. And most of the people here seem to love it.
One last point......Phillips to the Falls.....ahhhhhh can't wait to make that journey to watch muddy water roll over some prairie rocks while I smell the rotting carcasses of dead pigs a few blocks away. That is so cosmopoliton. They can dump millions into the Falls project, but it still doesn't take away the negative impact of Morrells.

[BisonFan]

This has to be one of the dumbest debates of all time...comparing the size of two cities like drunken idiots comparing the size of their manhoods...Seriously ::)

[SDbison]

Bisonfan if you don't have an opinion or don't care about a topic please keep it to yourself. No one is forcing you to read or post. Maybe this discussion has the same passion you do about limiting people from drinking. Seems you can't post without trying to convince someone of something they shouldn't do.

[BisonFan]

Just trying to urge Bison fans to a higher level like the rest of NDSU!

[Bisonguy]

Looks like the FM metro might be almost 195k.

F-M area breaking forecasts (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=83854&section=news)

[TheBisonator]

Holy crap, 195,000. That's bigger than Sioux Falls' metro, I bet.

Now this is getting good... ;D ;D ;D

[bisonranch]

Have to find out if Bisonranch is in my neighborhood.


Nope, a ways east in MN. *SF is my usual weekend destination.

This is a lame discussion though, but not yet like some of those that*:) :) :) :) started. *

[JACKGUYII]

Holy crap, 195,000. That's bigger than Sioux Falls' metro, I bet.

Now this is getting good... ;D ;D ;D

Sioux Falls Metro area population estimates have already exceeded the 200,000 mark. Sioux Falls went over 100,000 in just the city limits 14 years ago.

[RABBIT]

Holy crap, 195,000. That's bigger than Sioux Falls' metro, I bet.

Now this is getting good... ;D ;D ;D

No offense, but did you read this article. It doesn't really sound like 195,000 is a sure thing. It sounds kind of like a smoke and mirrors estimate to me.


MetroCOG's estimates are based in large part on the number of housing construction permits issued and on assumptions about how many people are living in those new apartments and homes.

Rathge called MetroCOG's approach "problematic."

MetroCOG may be underestimating how many of the new residences are occupied by people living alone.

"So much depends on the assumptions you make," he said.

Rathge also said the MetroCOG estimates may not accurately reflect the declining and aging population in eastern North Dakota, from which Fargo-Moorhead traditionally draws many of it new residents.

MetroCOG's estimate "is just seat of the pants, but we think it's in the ballpark," Bright said.

You would think that and NDSU board would side with the results that were made by and NDSU proffesor three years ago, but I guess they'll side with whoever has the highest results.

[JACKGUYII]

This article was in today's Argus Leader that put the current Sioux Falls city population at 141,000.


In wire rims and penny loafers and sporting a mop of silver hair, Cooper says he thinks Sioux Falls' top attraction is its quality of life.

"There is a lot of variety in terms of opportunities for people whether they want to work here, live here or go to school here," he says.

He projects that the city, with 141,000 residents now, will reach 160,000 by 2010.

Planners have no figure in mind for an ideal population where the increase would end.

"The city may never stop growing," he says.

Could it reach a half-million?

"It's possible," he says. "Not in my lifetime. Maybe after we reach a certain threshold of 200,000 to 300,000, growth will slow down some."

[Bisonguy]

No offense, but did you read this article. *It doesn't really sound like 195,000 is a sure thing. *It sounds kind of like a smoke and mirrors estimate to me.




Pretty much all the numbers being thrown around, other than the 2000 census numbers, are smoke and mirror estimates.

[RABBIT]

Pretty much all the numbers being thrown around, other than the 2000 census numbers, are smoke and mirror estimates.


Thats probably true.

[TheBisonator]

Sioux Falls Metro area population estimates have already exceeded the 200,000 mark. Sioux Falls went over 100,000 in just the city limits 14 years ago.

200,000... 195,000... Your guess is as good as ours. The point is that if F-M isn't bigger than Sioux Falls (I may have jumped the gun when I said F-M was actually BIGGER), then they're at least both very close, and growing at almost the same rate.

And Fargo also has Moorhead, West Fargo, Dilworth, Oakport, Horace, etc. connected to it. There's no cities physically connected to Sioux Falls.

[JACKGUYII]

[quote author=TheBisonator link=board=bc;num=1107239287;start=45#58 date=02/20/05 at 15:52:23]

200,000... 195,000... Your guess is as good as ours. The point is that if F-M isn't bigger than Sioux Falls (I may have jumped the gun when I said F-M was actually BIGGER), then they're at least both very close, and growing at almost the same rate.

And Fargo also has Moorhead, West Fargo, Dilworth, Oakport, Horace, etc. connected to it. There's no cities physically connected to Sioux Falls.

Oh really I guess someone will have to tell people in Brandon,Harrisburg and Tea and all of the people in Lincoln County (one of the fastest growing counties in the country) adjacent to Sioux Falls that there not physically conncected to Sioux Falls (whatever that means). Once again your jumping the gun without knowing all the facts.

[TheBisonator]

200,000... 195,000... Your guess is as good as ours. The point is that if F-M isn't bigger than Sioux Falls (I may have jumped the gun when I said F-M was actually BIGGER), then they're at least both very close, and growing at almost the same rate.

And Fargo also has Moorhead, West Fargo, Dilworth, Oakport, Horace, etc. connected to it. There's no cities physically connected to Sioux Falls.

Oh really I guess someone will have to tell people in Brandon,Harrisburg and Tea and all of the people in Lincoln County (one of the fastest growing counties in the country) adjacent to Sioux Falls that there not physically conncected to Sioux Falls (whatever that means). Once again your jumping the gun without knowing all the facts.

Not physically connected means that the city boundaries of the surrounding communities do not touch the city boundaries of the main city. All those towns that you speak of are completely seperated from Sioux Falls. They're not connected to Sioux Falls politically or developmentally.

[JACKGUYII]

Not physically connected means that the city boundaries of the surrounding communities do not touch the city boundaries of the main city. All those towns that you speak of are completely seperated from Sioux Falls. They're not connected to Sioux Falls politically or developmentally.

Harrisburg, Brandon and Lincoln County boundaries come up to Sioux Falls. In fact Harrisburg is building a grade school in Sioux Falls city limits. Explain to me how Moorhead is connected to Fargo politically.

[greenandgold01]

Sioux Falls, SD MSA 172,412
Lincoln County 24,131
Minnehaha County 148,281

Fargo--Moorhead, ND--MN MSA 174,367
Clay County, MN 51,229
Cass County, ND 123,138


These are the offcial statistics. In 2010 we'll get new ones.

It suprises me that the MN side of the Sioux Falls area wasn't built up like Moorhead was.

[Herd_Mentality]

From today's Forum....

2005 estimates

Metro -194,808
Fargo - 100,126

[somebison]

It suprises me that the MN side of the Sioux Falls area wasn't built up like Moorhead was.

Probably because Sioux Falls is about 30 miles from Minnesota

[SDbison]

Use facts:
Greenandgold01 posted actual numbers form what is considered the metro areas, i.e. county or counties in which thw cities lie.
FM = Cass / Clay
SF = Minnehaha / Lincoln
FM is directly connected to Dilworth and WestFargo.....not sure about Rose Creek. In reality none of the smaller towns around SF are connected yet:
Harrisburg (even counting some rural developments) is at least a half mile away from the nearest SF city limit.
Tea is a good mile and a half as the crow flies from the edge of SF.
Brandon at its closest is at least one mile from some SF city edge developments.
Sioux Falls is about 15 miles from the western edge of the Minnesota border.

NOTE: Lets keep this discussion going because it really seems to bother Bisonfan. Apparently Bisonfan has population envy.

[TheBisonator]

Thank you for backing up my point, SDbison.

All I'm trying to get at is to prove to some people here who think that Sioux Falls is a lot bigger than Fargo-Moorhead, and who think it's growing a lot faster than F-M, that it simply is not the case.

Fargo-Moorhead and Sioux Falls are almost exactly the same size (in metro area, F-M is somewhat bigger in urban area) and are growing at almost the same rate. I, and a lot of people around here prefer living in Fargo-Moorhead. It doesn't mean some people don't prefer Sioux Falls.

[SDbison]

You are exactly right Bisonator. Both cities are similar, but different. Who cares if one has slightly more population or growth rate because relatively they are in a statistical dead heat. I enjoy many things about Fargo-Moorhead and a few things about Sioux Falls even though I live close to there. I think Sioux Falls biggest problem is the leaders are afraid to think big. No visionaries to promote tech job growth, get an event center moving, or provide for facilities that are better than surrounding communities. Much as Fargo itself is smaller than SF the leaders try to grow the community and often try to do things on a level with Minneapolis or Seattle. Sioux Falls compares itself to Sioux City or Omaha which is not a very big measuring stick. Case closed......if you like SF OK. If you like FM OK.

[greenandgold01]

Thank you for backing up my point, SDbison.

All I'm trying to get at is to prove to some people here who think that Sioux Falls is a lot bigger than Fargo-Moorhead, and who think it's growing a lot faster than F-M, that it simply is not the case.

Fargo-Moorhead and Sioux Falls are almost exactly the same size (in metro area, F-M is somewhat bigger in urban area) and are growing at almost the same rate. I, and a lot of people around here prefer living in Fargo-Moorhead. It doesn't mean some people don't prefer Sioux Falls.


A tale of two cities.

[JACKGUYII]

You are exactly right Bisonator. *Both cities are similar, but different. *Who cares if one has slightly more population or growth rate because relatively they are in a statistical dead heat. *I enjoy many things about Fargo-Moorhead and a few things about Sioux Falls even though I live close to there. *I think Sioux Falls biggest problem is the leaders are afraid to think big. *No visionaries to promote tech job growth, get an event center moving, or provide for facilities that are better than surrounding communities. *Much as Fargo itself is smaller than SF the leaders try to grow the community and often try to do things on a level with Minneapolis or Seattle. *Sioux Falls compares itself to Sioux City or Omaha which is not a very big measuring stick. * Case closed......if you like SF OK. *If you like FM OK. * * * *

SDBison- you are obviously not plugged into what's happening in Sioux Falls based on your comments above. Have you ever picked up a copy of the Sioux Falls Business Journal? Sioux Falls is again preparing for the next wave of technology by funding a business incubator program that is next to the Tech Center. Have you heard of a company called Hematech that recently moved to Sioux Falls? If you think Sioux Falls is just morrells, call centers and a regional medical community than you have not been paying attention the last 11 years. Forward Sioux Falls has been very proactive in planning the future of Sioux Falls. The Events Center and Activity Center will happen in the next few years because the leaders in the community will make it happen. Do we currently have as nice a hockey facility as others in the region NO,but that is certainly no secret and steps are being taken to rectify it. What steps have you taken to make the community you call home a better place. No, your one of those people who just bitch about the status quo and offer no solutions. Sioux Falls has added 3 airlines in the last year. Does Fargo even have 3 airlines serving it? If Fargo is trying emulate Minneapolis and Seattle wonderful. I'm fairly certain Sioux City with one of the highest unemployment rates in the region and rapidly losing population is trying to duplicate Sioux Falls rather than the other way around.

[JBB]

Riverside already combined with West Fargo. *I think West Fargo and Horace could be next. *It would be a lot easier for them since Horace is in the West Fargo School district. *There was also a South West Fargo and West Fargo.

[SDbison]

Read my posts JackguyII.........Sioux Falls is behind the curve, out of step, much too late and so on........
Way too long of a wait to just start planning for the events center now.
Way too long of a wait to start finally working on getting some high tech jobs.
Way too long of a wait to build more indoor ice rinks.
Forward Sioux Falls is a joke. What significant job growth can they be credited with? Hematech.....what?
You are just angry because I am pointing out some major deficiencies about Sioux Falls. Oh yeah, I personally have the power to get the city to build more anything. Maybe you know nothing of my attempts to convince the city to get going in these areas. Rather than being insulted you should be inspired to say, "gee maybe something should be happening in my community"? But it is clear the majority in Sioux Falls are content to have things the way they are. BTW Don't kill the messenger. I am just very disappointed in the lack of progress in these areas. BTW sounds like some of those good $8 an hour call center jobs may be at risk according to yesterday's newpaper. Maybe the displaced workers can go work at Morrells.

[TheBisonator]

SDBison- you are obviously not plugged into what's happening in Sioux Falls based on your comments above. Have you ever picked up a copy of the Sioux Falls Business Journal? Sioux Falls is again preparing for the next wave of technology by funding a business incubator program that is next to the Tech Center. Have you heard of a company called Hematech that recently moved to Sioux Falls? If you think Sioux Falls is just morrells, call centers and a regional medical community than you have not been paying attention the last 11 years. Forward Sioux Falls has been very proactive in planning the future of Sioux Falls. The *Events Center and Activity Center will happen in the next few years because the leaders in the community will make it happen. Do we currently have as nice a hockey facility as others in the region NO,but that is certainly no secret and steps are being taken to rectify it. What steps have you taken to make the community you call home a better place. No, your one of those people who just bitch about the status quo and offer no solutions. Sioux Falls has added 3 airlines in the last year. Does Fargo even have 3 airlines serving it? If Fargo is trying emulate Minneapolis and Seattle wonderful. I'm fairly certain Sioux City with one of the highest unemployment rates in the region and rapidly losing population is trying to duplicate Sioux Falls rather than the other way around.

Fargo currently has three airlines serving it, and is about to add a fourth. Our airport served over 510,000 passengers last year.

[BisonCountry]

Fargo currently has three airlines serving it, and is about to add a fourth. Our airport served over 510,000 passengers last year.

Are you counting the Vegas Charter as the 3rd? Otherwise, I'm only aware of United and Northwest.

[TheBisonator]

Are you counting the Vegas Charter as the 3rd? *Otherwise, I'm only aware of United and Northwest.

Northwest, United, Mesaba, and there's also the Vegas charter.

[JACKGUYII]

Northwest and Mesaba are one of the same. Sioux Falls is served by Northwest,Mesaba,Delta,United,America West and Allegiant. They were served by American until November when American was forced to reduce flights into Chicago. American wants back into the market as they were doing well.

[BisonCountry]

Northwest, United, Mesaba, and there's also the Vegas charter.

Gotcha...then technically it should be Northwest, Air Wisconsin (United Express), Mesaba (Northwest Airlink). Fargo definitely needs to try to add additional carriers because of the increasing demand.

[greenandgold01]

Gotcha...then technically it should be Northwest, Air Wisconsin (United Express), Mesaba (Northwest Airlink). Fargo definitely needs to try to add additional carriers because of the increasing demand.

But is there really increasing demand? I don't see why people would want to fly to Fargo when flying to Minneapolis usually means non stop and lower prices.

[BisonCountry]

But is there really increasing demand? I don't see why people would want to fly to Fargo when flying to Minneapolis usually means non stop and lower prices.
I think with population growth, business growth, etc... your naturally going to have an increase in demand for air travel. For a casual traveler it might make sense to save some money by traveling through Minneapolis (not as much of a saving anymore), but for the business traveler it makes no sense at all and that is going to be a bulk of the Fargo carrier business. If you look at Hector's website, i think it shows that the demand is increasing: http://www.fargoairport.com/
Jan 2005 - Passenger's Up 13%
2004 - 520,000 Passenger's New Record
United adding additional Flight on May 4th

[greenandgold01]

I think with population growth, business growth, etc... your naturally going to have an increase in demand for air travel. For a casual traveler it might make sense to save some money by traveling through Minneapolis (not as much of a saving anymore), but for the business traveler it makes no sense at all and that is going to be a bulk of the Fargo carrier business. If you look at Hector's website, i think it shows that the demand is increasing: http://www.fargoairport.com/
Jan 2005 - Passenger's Up 13%
2004 - 520,000 Passenger's New Record
United adding additional Flight on May 4th

Just out of curiousity I check a couple places.

From Seattle:
to Minneapolis $215 (non stop)
to Fargo: $491 (stop in Minneapolis)

From Chicago:
to Minneapolis: $231 (non stop)
to Fargo: $244 (non stop)

From Dallas:
to Minneapolis: $200 (non stop)
to Fargo: $447 (stop in Chicago)


If you're coming from Chicago it's basically the same. Otherwise, is $250 worth the 4 hr. drive (depending on traffic)? It's a judgement call.

[jjbluecw]

For the business traveler that travels several times a month it is a no brainer to fly in and out of Fargo. For myself when I travel for leisure I figure it is worth about $200.

[tony]

Yeah, 8-10 hours of driving is no treat. However, if you've got a family and travelling for pleasure, the drive to MSP might be budget saver.

You can get lucky though. I've had times (OK, one time) when it was cheaper to fly from NY to Fargo than it was to fly from NY to MSP. Other times the difference has been less than a cab ride. It must have something to do with demand.

Has anybody ever flown to Fargo in a plane that wasn't full or nearly full?

[JBB]

Fargo to Minneapolis by car is well under 4 hrs. (235 miles) *going to the airport, even in bad traffic wont add more than 30 min. but round trip will get you to 8 especially if you have to rent a car. Probaly 10 is more like it then.

[BisonCountry]

Fargo to Minneapolis by car is well under 4 hrs. (235 miles) *going to the airport, even in bad traffic wont add more than 30 min.

Obviously you've never been on 494 during rush hour. Under optimal conditions you can make it in 3 1/2 hrs.

[greenandgold01]

Obviously you've never been on 494 during rush hour. Under optimal conditions you can make it in 3 1/2 hrs.


You can make it to the metro in 3.5, yes. But to the airport? Not likely.

[greenandgold01]

For the business traveler that travels several times a month it is a no brainer to fly in and out of Fargo. For myself when I travel for leisure I figure it is worth about $200.


Not that I don't believe you, but why exactly is it a no brainer?

If you aren't coming from Mpls., Chicago, or Denver, then you're going to double your costs.

[jjbluecw]

Not sure of the mileage but someone earlier said it is 235 miles from Fargo to MSP airposrt. Here is my logic why it would be a no brainer for a business traveler and let me know if you agree/disagree:

470 mile roundtrip x 40.5 cents/ mile (from IRS rate for business driving)=$190

So $190 of expense before you take on time. Lets say roundtrip takes 8 hours. For arguements sake we'll say this travelers time is worth $20/hour (very conservative number) 8 times 20 = $160.

You can easily estimate it costs $350 to drive to MSP and back.

Wow, I must really bored.

[BisonMav]

You can make it to the metro in 3.5, yes. But to the airport? Not likely.

No problem making it to the Metro in 3 hrs, at 75 mph. I do stay off 494, the longest parking lot in the cities.

[tony]

Hehehe, to each his own.

I think jjbluecw is spot on: unless you are a delivery guy, it's a no-brainer that a business is going to want you fly rather than dinking around in a car for 8+ hours. If your time is not worth, say, $50/hour to your company, then they probably aren't going to bother sending you on a plane anywhere anyway. Besides, if they are going to make you drive the MSP-Fargo leg from Chicago, for example, why wouldn't they just have you drive the whole deal?

It is interesting to see the different ways people make decisions though. When on my own, I've done it both ways (drive to MSP then fly and fly direct). I've come to prefer flying direct... especially if you are coming off a long flight into MSP, the last thing you want to do is hop in a car and drive four+ hours.

As Fargo grows and MSP airport becomes more and more congested, it seems likely that Fargo will get more direct flights. That'd be a nice development.

[jjbluecw]

Thanks Tony. I also don't listen to my own advice. I just booked a flight to Phoenix out of MSP (pleasure trip and I am car pooling). I hope with the increase in direct flights out of fargo it will make all travel out of Hector more affordable.

[Herd_Mentality]

Also one could compare the price of having to house your car in MSP while you're out of town, via being able to take a cab or roping your girlfriend into dropping you off and picking you up at the FAR airport (a nod to BisonCountry).

Then again, according to the SportsGuy article on ESPN page 2, the argument with one's girlfriend on the way to the airport is part of being a female...so if you factor that cost it may be breaking even.

[greenandgold01]

That makes sense I suppose. It doesn't seem like there would be many business trips to Fargo, though.

[roadwarrior]

$14 a day to park your car at the MSP airport ramps.

[jjbluecw]

That makes sense I suppose. It doesn't seem like there would be many business trips to Fargo, though.

What is that supposed to mean? 500,000 passengers didn't fly through hector all on leisure trips.

[greenandgold01]

What is that supposed to mean? 500,000 passengers didn't fly through hector all on leisure trips.

First of all, why would you take offense to that? Are you seriously getting pissed over an airport? You've got to be kidding me.

Now, 500k passengers doesn't mean 500k separate people came through the airport. That could be the same 50k people taking 5 round trips each year.

Fargo only has 170k people. There really isn't that much industry here worth flying to in the first place. I imagine NDSU gets a fair amount of business related travel. But other than that, there isn't much.

[jjbluecw]

I surely didn't take offense to it. I was seriously asking what you meant. To say Fargo doesn't get much business related travel is an ignorant statement unless you are comparing Fargo to MSP and the like.

[greenandgold01]

I surely didn't take offense to it. I was seriously asking what you meant. To say Fargo doesn't get much business related travel is an ignorant statement unless you are comparing Fargo to MSP and the like.


I was since we've been talking about whether it's better to fly to Fargo or drive from Mpls. for the past page or so.

[jjbluecw]

If we are comparing Fargo with MSP what is the point. I just wanted to state that the majority of travelers taking advantage of the Fargo air service are business travelers. Like you said, I'm sure it's mostly repeat and frequent passengers. Judging by the number of daily flights coming in and out of Hector there must be more industry in Fargo than most of us think.

[greenandgold01]

If we are comparing Fargo with MSP what is the point. I just wanted to state that the majority of travelers taking advantage of the Fargo air service are business travelers. Like you said, I'm sure it's mostly repeat and frequent passengers. Judging by the number of daily flights coming in and out of Hector there must be more industry in Fargo than most of us think.

Do you have a link or something showing the breakdown of passengers who are business or whatever?

I'd be willing to be the overwhelming majority of the passengers are people who live in the area returning home.

[BisonCountry]

Do you have a link or something showing the breakdown of passengers who are business or whatever?

I'd be willing to be the overwhelming majority of the passengers are people who live in the area returning home.


I wouldn't disagree with you but a majority of them are returning home from business trips.

[greenandgold01]

Right, since there isn't that much business to conduct in Fargo.

[jjbluecw]

Do you have a link or something showing the breakdown of passengers who are business or whatever?

I'd be willing to be the overwhelming majority of the passengers are people who live in the area returning home.


I don't have a link but exactly my point. The majority of passengers are people leaving and returning home to Fargo on business.

[greenandgold01]

My point is that there isn't any business in Fargo.

[Bisonguy]

My point is that there isn't any business in Fargo.

Better tell some companies in Fargo that. They've been paying employees to do nothing, and haven't realized it yet! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

[jjbluecw]

No kidding. Microsoft, Theraldsons, Bobcat, Bank of the West, etc, etc are really getting screwed. I can't believe someone hasn't caught on yet.

[tony]

Heck, you think they have problems? What was my wife doing in Fargo on all those "business trips?" Hmmmm...

[roadwarrior]

No business in Fargo? Well, lets assume that is correct. If there was no business happening in Fargo, who are the BUSINESS travelers using Hector? If nothing was happening in Fargo, there would be no business travelers to make trips out of Fargo, and of course there would be no reason for business people living outside of Fargo to come to Fargo on business. Duh ;D

[greenandgold01]

I meant to say that there isn't very much business in Fargo.


None of you have passenger statistics to prove your claims anyway. Maybe we should just drop this ridiculous argument.

[Tatanka]

Maybe we should just drop this ridiculous argument.
Most intelligent eight words in this entire thread.

[SDbison]

I think you guys would make great travel agents. :D

[jjbluecw]

I meant to say that there isn't very much business in Fargo.


It's all relative I guess but to me that is an insult to Fargo and the people who have helped grow the FM area into what it is today. With that narrowminded attitude we better alert future businesses to look elsewhere because they are better off in Minneapolis or someplace else and not here where "there isn't very much business".

I did come across this interesting read the other day (old article):
http://www.careerjournal.com/salaryhiring/regional/20021219-gavin.html

Apparently the Wall Street Journal thinks Fargo has more to offer than some locals. Pretty sad IMO.

[greenandgold01]

It's all relative I guess but to me that is an insult to Fargo and the people who have helped grow the FM area into what it is today. With that narrowminded attitude we better alert future businesses to look elsewhere because they are better off in Minneapolis or someplace else and not here where "there isn't very much business".

I did come across this interesting read the other day (old article):
http://www.careerjournal.com/salaryhiring/regional/20021219-gavin.html

Apparently the Wall Street Journal thinks Fargo has more to offer than some locals. Pretty sad IMO.


I don't understand why you or anyone would take it as a personal insult.

[jjbluecw]

I don't understand why you or anyone would take it as a personal insult.

Not to me personally but perhaps to someone who has spent their lifes work growing a business here or our local leaders who have worked tirelessly growing our fine city....Nevermind, I guess I have more pride in my city than some.

[greenandgold01]

I have pride. If you insult me I take offense. That's natural.


What I don't find natural is for someone to project their entire self over the whole city they live in.

I can understand projecting it onto your family, house, car, etc. But not the whole city you live in.

[jjbluecw]

I don't even fully understand your last reply. I was trying to show how the statement: "I meant to say that there isn't very much business in Fargo." is shallowminded and ridiculous. Exactly the kind of attitude we don't need when trying to slow down the mass movement of our young people from the area. I find it interesting that one of the strongest companies in the world would invest $1.1 billion in a city where "there isn't very much business".

[tony]

Heheheheehe, I don't think you'll ever win and argument with greenandgold01.

You can't even get even with him by insulting his car, a thing which he values above his community, because you don't know which model his parents bought him :)

[jjbluecw]

Heheheheehe, I don't think you'll ever win and argument with greenandgold01.

You can't even get even with him by insulting his car, a thing which he values above his community, because you don't know which model his parents bought him :)

I am beginning to think your right. I am surprised to hear greenandgold owns a car however. After reading many intelligent posts I had come to the conclusion he/she was not old enough to drive.

[greenandgold01]

Well I can see where the arguments are starting to end and the mud slinging is starting.

I would've thought this board to be more mature than that.

[jjbluecw]

I knew that was coming as soon as I made the post. I am the furthest thing from mature....Sorry you couldn't hold up your end of the discussion.

[Bisonguy]

Why sling mud, when FieldTurfTM is a far superior material?

[greenandgold01]

Why sling mud, when FieldTurfTM is a far superior material?

What is this supposed to mean?

[Bisonguy]

FieldTurfTM is a technically advanced outdoor surface that is far superior to grass. FieldTurfTM has made grass obsolete, therefore, slinging the mud that goes along with the grass surface is inferior to slinging FieldTurfTM. Technically, I suppose, it would make more sense to sling the rubber infill system of FieldTurfTM because that's the "dirt" of the FieldTurfTM system.

Maybe the city of Fargo should replace all the grass in the city parks with FieldTurfTM. The initial cost of the FieldTurfTM installation could easily be recouped in a couple years by not having to pay high school kids to mow the parks in the summer.

[greenandgold01]

FieldTurfTM is a technically advanced outdoor surface that is far superior to grass. FieldTurfTM has made grass obsolete, therefore, slinging the mud that goes along with the grass surface is inferior to slinging FieldTurfTM. Technically, I suppose, it would make more sense to sling the rubber infill system of FieldTurfTM because that's the "dirt" of the FieldTurfTM system.

Maybe the city of Fargo should replace all the grass in the city parks with FieldTurfTM. The initial cost of the FieldTurfTM installation could easily be recouped in a couple years by not having to pay high school kids to mow the parks in the summer.


Well it's obvious that you love this stuff, but why are you telling me?

[Bisonguy]

Thought you might be interested.

[greenandgold01]

Thought you might be interested.


Umm...thanks...I think. I'll keep it mind.

[TheBisonator]

Going back to the topic of the original part of the thread I wrote, I read in that article in the Forum that the MetroCOG estimators said that the 2005 Fargo (CITY PROPER, greenandgold01) population was 100,126. That's right on track with my recent calculations I made of breaking the 100k mark.

More good news was Moorhead's recent growth (36,395) and West Fargo's continued boom (20,158). The immediate urban area has over 160,000 people according to the recent estimate. That's around 20,000 more than the immediate urban area of Sioux Falls (yes, Jacks fans, you heard me).

195,000 in the metro is really good news as well.

[greenandgold01]

Not trying to insult you or anything, Bisonator, but until 2010, the Fargo Market has about 175k in my mind.

[roadwarrior]

How many posts can this thread take ::)

[Bisonguy]

How many posts can this thread take ::)

However many beatings a dead horse can take. :P ;)

[Junior]

I meant to say that there isn't very much business in Fargo.


None of you have passenger statistics to prove your claims anyway. Maybe we should just drop this ridiculous argument.

Hmmmm, the company I work for just gave Fargo some additional business. We have a guy in town on business right now and had a different one there last week and will have a third guy there in a couple more weeks. Oh, there were some business guys from Mexico in Fargo last week too. Several of our second tier suppliers are in Fargo as well......

Figured I had better get my lashings in on the horse while I could. ;D ;D

[Junior]

Not sure of the mileage but someone earlier said it is 235 miles from Fargo to MSP airposrt. *Here is my logic why it would be a no brainer for a business traveler and let me know if you agree/disagree:

470 mile roundtrip x 40.5 cents/ mile (from IRS rate for business driving)=$190

So $190 of expense before you take on time. *Lets say roundtrip takes 8 hours. *For arguements sake we'll say this travelers time is worth $20/hour (very conservative number) 8 times 20 = $160. *

You can easily estimate it costs $350 to drive to MSP and back. *

Wow, I must really bored.


Actually you would be suprised how much an employee's time is worth to an employer. *It is more in the $70-$100/hour range. *You have to figure salary, the equipment the employee uses, depreation on this equipment, employee training, disposible supplies such a office supplies, office space, utilities for that office space, local and state taxes on the facility, etc. *The only times I have ever had to drive any distance was 1) remote location or 2) over $700 dollars difference in airfare.

Oh, just FYI, the 40.5 cents per mile only applies if you are driving your personal car for business. A businiess traveler would probably be renting a car and depending on the duration of your trip could easly pass the $190. (moot point) I think the last one I rented was around $350 for the week with unlimited miles. (of course the same business travler would need to rent a car in Fargo, huh I mooted my own moot point..)

But yes, I agree with you it cost $$$ to have employees driving around instead of conducing business.

[greenandgold01]

Hmmmm, the company I work for just gave Fargo some additional business. We have a guy in town on business right now and had a different one there last week and will have a third guy there in a couple more weeks. Oh, there were some business guys from Mexico in Fargo last week too. Several of our second tier suppliers are in Fargo as well......

Figured I had better get my lashings in on the horse while I could. ;D ;D


Well that certainly proves that Fargo is filled to the brim with business. ::)

[Junior]

Thanks, glad to help. I figured that would clear this right up. ;)

[JACKGUYII]

Going back to the topic of the original part of the thread I wrote, I read in that article in the Forum that the MetroCOG estimators said that the 2005 Fargo (CITY PROPER, greenandgold01) population was 100,126. That's right on track with my recent calculations I made of breaking the 100k mark.

More good news was Moorhead's recent growth (36,395) and West Fargo's continued boom (20,158). The immediate urban area has over 160,000 people according to the recent estimate. That's around 20,000 more than the immediate urban area of Sioux Falls (yes, Jacks fans, you heard me).

195,000 in the metro is really good news as well.

Bisonator do you really believe your own Bullshi@. You use recent estimates for the Fargo/Moorhead area and actual numbers for the Sioux Falls Metro Area. If your going to keep making these comparisons how about an apples to apples kind of assesment rather than a selective one that will just back up your own pregidices.

[greenandgold01]

Who cares?

The 2000 census has them both around 170k. Does it really matter?

[Junior]

Bisonator do you really believe your own Bullshi@. You use recent estimates for the Fargo/Moorhead area and actual numbers for the Sioux Falls Metro Area. If your going to keep making these comparisons how about an apples to apples kind of assesment rather than a selective one that will just back up your own pregidices.

Now now, lets not upset the apple cart... :P

[TheBisonator]

Bisonator do you really believe your own Bullshi@. You use recent estimates for the Fargo/Moorhead area and actual numbers for the Sioux Falls Metro Area. If your going to keep making these comparisons how about an apples to apples kind of assesment rather than a selective one that will just back up your own pregidices.

OK, JACKGUYII, since you seem to be the only one in this thread who thinks my numbers are bulls*** (other than greenandgold01 who only cares about the census numbers), how many people do YOU think live in Fargo-Moorhead at this moment??

[tony]

Hey, as long the F-M metro adds 6000 people who will regularly go to Bison football games, I'll be happy.

[JACKGUYII]

I don't know for sure and neither do you or anyone who claims too. Your original post was regarding Fargo estimated to have surpassed the 100,000 figure which is a major milestone for a city. I believe Sioux Falls hit that mark in 1988 and was at 123,000 in the 2000 census. Current Estimates at the end of 2004 was 141,000. I think its really a subjective process to define the metro area as everyone has a different opinion of what that includes. I think it's safe to say Sioux Falls is roughly 40,000 people larger than Fargo. In terms of Metro area I think it's virtually a tossup.

[IowaBison]

OK, JACKGUYII, since you seem to be the only one in this thread who thinks my numbers are bulls*** (other than greenandgold01 who only cares about the census numbers), how many people do YOU think live in Fargo-Moorhead at this moment??


you must have forgotten about me, Bisonator ;)

[JBB]

SiouxFalls has historically been larger than Fargo and as a result got better rock and roll bands through out the 70s and 80s. *I dont know how the rock n roll is doing down there these days but I did see the Rolling Stones in Fargo. *I also saw a TV special on Aerosmith when they played SiouxFalls and then played in a local bar after the show. *Take your pick. Both are great towns with Fargo really starting to boom.

The most telling thing about growth in Fargo is the latest report that the population loss in ND has slowed and the state may actually be growing. *My guess is that Fargo is drawing in a lot of out of state people offsetting the tendancey of ND to shrink.

Another telling fact is the wage level in Fargo is growing and is increasing along with the best labor markets in the country. *That means good jobs are here and there is competition for skilled people.

[jjbluecw]

Another telling fact is the wage level in Fargo is growing and is increasing along with the best labor markets in the country. That means good jobs are here and there is competition for skilled people.

Come on now JBB, that can't be correct. You obviously haven't read the last news reported right on this very thread: There isn't very much business in Fargo. :D

[greenandgold01]

Come on now JBB, that can't be correct. You obviously haven't read the last news reported right on this very thread: There isn't very much business in Fargo. :D

How does increasing wages prove that there is very much business in Fargo?

[jjbluecw]

I never said it did. I just enjoy making fun of that ridiculous statement.

[GCWaters]

I think its really a subjective process to define the metro area as everyone has a different opinion of what that includes. .


Actually, I think the Census Bureau defines it in a standard way...

[TheBisonator]

I don't know for sure and neither do you or anyone who claims too. Your original post was regarding Fargo estimated to have surpassed the 100,000 figure which is a major milestone for a city. I believe Sioux Falls hit that mark in 1988 and was at 123,000 in the 2000 census. Current Estimates at the end of 2004 was 141,000. I think its really a subjective process to define the metro area as everyone has a different opinion of what that includes. I think it's safe to say Sioux Falls is roughly 40,000 people larger than Fargo. In terms of Metro area I think it's virtually a tossup.

If you're talking about actual cities, then yes, Sioux Falls has close to 40,000 more than Fargo. If you're talking about immediate urban area, then Fargo has about 20,000 more than Sioux Falls. If you're talking about metro area, then they're basically even.

City: Sioux Falls
UA: Fargo-Moorhead
Metro: Even

Can't we just agree on that and get on with our lives??

Can't we kill this thread already??

[greenandgold01]

If you're talking about actual cities, then yes, Sioux Falls has close to 40,000 more than Fargo. If you're talking about immediate urban area, then Fargo has about 20,000 more than Sioux Falls. If you're talking about metro area, then they're basically even.

City: Sioux Falls
UA: Fargo-Moorhead
Metro: Even

Can't we just agree on that and get on with our lives??

Can't we kill this thread already??



MSA = Urban area.

[roadwarrior]

Lets go for 20 pages on this thread ::)

[jjbluecw]

Lets go for 20 pages on this thread ::)

I'm sure greenandgold and I could easily add another 10 pages or so of silly arguement if you would like. :P

[greenandgold01]

Lets go for 20 pages on this thread ::)


Why do you care how long the thread goes on if you're not even making an argument in it?

[JBB]

Theres business in Fargo, believe me. What kind of business does the greenandgold01 one want? Cant he find any business? You have got to find the business if your going to get along greenandgold01!! 8)

[greenandgold01]

Theres business in Fargo, believe me. What kind of business does the greenandgold01 one want? Cant he find any business? You have got to find the business if your going to get along greenandgold01!! 8)


I never meant to say that there is no business in Fargo.

There isn't enough business in Fargo to justify adding more flights.

[TheBisonator]

MSA = Urban area.

Not quite. Urban area is the agglomeration of cities connected to each other (in F-M's case, Fargo, Moorhead, West Fargo, Dilworth, Horace, Oakport, Reile's Acres, Prairie Rose, Briarwood, North River), while metro area or "MSA" is the counties that are part of, and/or surround the metro area. All that is in Cass and Clay counties are part of the metro area. Leonard, ND, for example, which is a small town in Cass county, would NOT be part of the URBAN area of Fargo-Moorhead.

Now that I've explained it AGAIN, can we PLEASE kill this thread??!!

[Junior]

My point is that there isn't any business in Fargo.

I never meant to say that there is no business in Fargo. There isn't enough business in Fargo to justify adding more flights.


Flip Flop... ;)

[greenandgold01]

Flip Flop... ;)


If you look before that, I actually said there isn't very much business. So my original point was that, not that there is no business.

[greenandgold01]

Not quite. Urban area is the agglomeration of cities connected to each other (in F-M's case, Fargo, Moorhead, West Fargo, Dilworth, Horace, Oakport, Reile's Acres, Prairie Rose, Briarwood, North River), while metro area or "MSA" is the counties that are part of, and/or surround the metro area. All that is in Cass and Clay counties are part of the metro area. Leonard, ND, for example, which is a small town in Cass county, would NOT be part of the URBAN area of Fargo-Moorhead.

Now that I've explained it AGAIN, can we PLEASE kill this thread??!!



This is your own personal definition.

For all practical purposes, the US government's definition of MSA works just as well if not better. So I question why you even go by your own definition unless you specifically made it benefit your own agenda.

[TheBisonator]

This is your own personal definition.

For all practical purposes, the US government's definition of MSA works just as well if not better. So I question why you even go by your own definition unless you specifically made it benefit your own agenda.

No, that is the definition of the United States Census Bureau.

Urban area and metro area are two different things.

Now can Tony PLEASE lock this thread??!!!

[Junior]

If you look before that, I actually said there isn't very much business. So my original point was that, not that there is no business.

My goodness gracious, we have got to help these poor people! Where do they buy their clothes and food if there is very little business. How do they survive? Do they have utilities, phones, radios. Can these people even communicate with the outside world if they need help? Someone contact the Red Cross, the National Guard, find some former presidents to raise aid money, there must be a desperate need. Unemployment must be near 100%, Oh heavens to mergatroid. What are we going to do? Can the members of Bisonville pull together and raise money. We must do something or over one sixth of the state popluation will surely die. Oh the horror.

;) ;) ;) ;)

[JACKGUYII]

SiouxFalls has historically been larger than Fargo and as a result got better rock and roll bands through out the 70s and 80s. *I dont know how the rock n roll is doing down there these days but I did see the Rolling Stones in Fargo. *I also saw a TV special on Aerosmith when they played SiouxFalls and then played in a local bar after the show. *Take your pick. Both are great towns with Fargo really starting to boom.

The most telling thing about growth in Fargo is the latest report that the population loss in ND has slowed and the state may actually be growing. *My guess is that Fargo is drawing in a lot of out of state people offsetting the tendancey of ND to shrink.

Another telling fact is the wage level in Fargo is growing and is increasing along with the best labor markets in the country. *That means good jobs are here and there is competition for skilled people.

JBB, the Pomp Room in Sioux Falls was one of the best bar venues for a Rock and Roll Bands in the Midwest. Many a band who eventually made it big played there. There was a feature on it in the Argus before they leveled it and put in a parking ramp. Sioux Falls has not been able to replace it!

[TheBisonator]

And now the title has been passed over to Playmaker's. ;D

[greenandgold01]

My goodness gracious, we have got to help these poor people! Where do they buy their clothes and food if there is very little business. How do they survive? Do they have utilities, phones, radios. Can these people even communicate with the outside world if they need help? Someone contact the Red Cross, the National Guard, find some former presidents to raise aid money, there must be a desperate need. Unemployment must be near 100%, Oh heavens to mergatroid. What are we going to do? Can the members of Bisonville pull together and raise money. We must do something or over one sixth of the state popluation will surely die. Oh the horror.

;) ;) ;) ;)


None of those are worth flying here.

[roadwarrior]

Well at least this thread got mergatroid out of hiding ;D

[greenandgold01]

Well at least this thread got mergatroid out of hiding ;D


There is no listing for "mergatroid" at dictionary.com, so might you explain what you mean by that?

[Junior]

There is no listing for "mergatroid" at dictionary.com, so might you explain what you mean by that?

Heavens to Mergatroid! * Haven't you ever seen Snagglepuss from The Yogi Bear Show? *:'( The voice of Snagglepuss was the legendary Daws Butler. Butler was Hanna-Barbera's most prolific actor, providing the voices of Yogi Bear, Huckleberry Hound, Dixie, Mr. Jinks, Quick Draw, Baba Looey, Snuffles the dog, Augie Doggie, Peter Potamus, Wally Gator, Hokey Wolf, Snooper, and Blabber, as well as providing the voice of Cap'N Crunch for Jay Ward.

Snagglepuss's favorite sayings were "Exit stage left" and "Heavens to Mergatroid."

Snagglepuss: Exit Stage Left

http://www.animationusa.com/picts/hbpict/hp02/2_Exit-Left.jpg

This classic image is based on a scene from the 'Major Operation' episode during the 1960-1961 season of the Yogi Bear Show.

btw, I may have spelled it in correctly. I have seen it murgatriod as well. Incidently I think Heavens to Murgatroid is a Boston rock band.

[tony]

It's Murgatroyd and it's a real name from Yorkshire.

It was used for a character in a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta who was cursed by a witch to do one evil deed a day. I seem to remember that they turned that premise into a short-lived cartoon so Murgatroyd probably has more than one cartoon connection.

[Tuk]

I can't believe this thread has gone for 11 pages. Wow, this is stupid!

[greenandgold01]

It's Murgatroyd and it's a real name from Yorkshire.

It was used for a character in a Gilbert and Sullivan operetta who was cursed by a witch to do one evil deed a day. I seem to remember that they turned that premise into a short-lived cartoon so Murgatroyd probably has more than one cartoon connection.

Ah. Thank you.

[greenandgold01]

I can't believe this thread has gone for 11 pages. Wow, this is stupid!


Yes it's stupid, and you just added to it.

[JBB]

Im just sorry the Pomp Room is gone. If I remember correctly it was in a basement?

[Herd_Mentality]

Somebody should run out to Hector every morning and tell everybody there is no need for more flights while they're shoehorning people into DC9s. The fact that there are now many companies in Fargo that have corporate HQs elsewhere has created a dramatic raise in travel. I'm sure that there'd be a lot of people flying out to Redmond that wouldn't mind not having to go East to get West

[Paulie]

Is Leonard counted in Fargo's numbers? How about Valley City?

[IowaBison]

Fargo is actively looking for additional flights and carriers. ;)

I don't mind the high traffic, it helps me get bumped up to first class (nothing like a free drink or three to pass the time between MSP and FAR)

[greenandgold01]

Is Leonard counted in Fargo's numbers? How about Valley City?


Cass county ND and Clay county MN. Just like the dairy company.

[Tatanka]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks3.jpg

[tony]

There are a number of threads with census numbers but I thought I'd bump this one because this one has lots of TheBisonateur.

http://www.inforum.com/news/3993670-f-m-population-growth-stepped-accelerator-2015

Executive Summary: The FM metro has been growing quickly for a long time... now it's growing even more quickly. Unfortunately, no predictions.

It's encouraging that most of the state is still growing too.

Other census threads (also with plenty of TheBisonator):

http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?8035-F-M-s-4-county-metro-population-breaks-210-000!!
http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?19465-Fargo-Moorhead-2-county-metro-pop-breaks-200K
http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?23326-Fargo-105-549
http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?27429-Fargo-Moorhead-2011-Metro-estimate-212-171
http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?30126-Fargo-Moorhead-metro-pop-for2012-216-312

[bisonaudit]

If the average annual growth over the last 5 years holds you're looking at a quarter of a million people by 2019.

[reformedUNDfan]

If the average annual growth over the last 5 years holds you're looking at a quarter of a million people by 2019.

Census estimates were way lower than actual going into 2010, and I think are again. Based on housing starts and occupancy rates I think the MSA passed 250k last year or will soon.

When the census is estimating we are adding fewer people than housing units there is a case for concern.

[NDSU1980]

This sums it up. Fargo Moorhead gained 5279 people in 2015. Grand Forks gained 654. Looks like they forgot the on line residents.

Among North Dakota's four leading metro areas, Grand Forks County lagged, gaining 654 residents, or 0.9 percent.

[StL Bison Fan]

This sums it up. Fargo Moorhead gained 5279 people in 2015. Grand Forks gained 654. Looks like they forgot the on line residents.

Among North Dakota's four leading metro areas, Grand Forks County lagged, gaining 654 residents, or 0.9 percent.

Hey now, lets give GF some credit! They increased their crime Rate. They have that!
http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/crime-and-courts/3994034-drugs-down-violent-and-property-crime-grand-forks-2015

[HerdBot]

Census estimates were way lower than actual going into 2010, and I think are again. Based on housing starts and occupancy rates I think the MSA passed 250k last year or will soon.

When the census is estimating we are adding more fewer people than housing units there is a case for concern.

College kids often list their address as their parents address and with a ton of Minnesota students, you are correct

[gumby013]

I moved back in 2014, so there's one.

[Rock]

Minnesota taxes have me strongly considering a move back. #ButttheWind

[North Side]

Honestly, I dont like Fargo to grow anymore. I am starting to miss the Fargo I grew up with. Crime seems so much worse, first officer shot, murders robberies, meth, heroin, sex trafficking. Fargo is still a good town but I am not liking the direction. I be willing to pay slightly hire taxes for more police/man power to get the scum out of our city.

[1998braves64]

Honestly, I dont like Fargo to grow anymore. I am starting to miss the Fargo I grew up with. Crime seems so much worse, first officer shot, murders robberies, meth, heroin, sex trafficking. Fargo is still a good town but I am not liking the direction. I be willing to pay slightly hire taxes for more police/man power to get the scum out of our city.

Have to pay for the ditch first though! That is the most important thing.

/purple??

[HerdBot]

Honestly, I dont like Fargo to grow anymore. I am starting to miss the Fargo I grew up with. Crime seems so much worse, first officer shot, murders robberies, meth, heroin, sex trafficking. Fargo is still a good town but I am not liking the direction. I be willing to pay slightly hire taxes for more police/man power to get the scum out of our city.

I think the city (and metro) needs to take a look at dramatically expanding its police force. The 10th largest city in the state is Wahpeton at 7900 and we add 5000 per year as a metro. Every 5 years we grow to the current population of Williston which is currently 24,500.

[MNLonghorn10]

Orr with social media and up to the minute news stories, we hear a hell of a lot more of what's going on.

We still have trash in the city no doubt though, but we did before social media too. They'll always be here

[StL Bison Fan]

I think the city (and metro) needs to take a look at dramatically expanding its police force. The 10th largest city in the state is Wahpeton at 7900 and we add 5000 per year as a metro. Every 5 years we grow to the current population of Williston which is currently 24,500.

I keep hearing that they are short 14 officers on the Fargo PD.

[unbison]

We could donate a few officers on Saturdays in the fall.... No need in the tailgate lot

[Hammerhead]

My parents have lived in the same south Fargo house since 1974 and they didn't start locking their garage (which is attached to the house) until a few years ago when the police were chasing a car prowler through the back yards. There seem to be more robberies and murders than when I was a kid.



Honestly, I dont like Fargo to grow anymore. I am starting to miss the Fargo I grew up with. Crime seems so much worse, first officer shot, murders robberies, meth, heroin, sex trafficking. Fargo is still a good town but I am not liking the direction. I be willing to pay slightly hire taxes for more police/man power to get the scum out of our city.

[tjbison]

Look across the Midwest, every city of any size is seeing crime last year

Fargo, Grand Forks, Williston, Minot and Bismarck, all seen Violent crime and with the Population of Fargo doubling and tripling the others we are not that terrible. I know im not scared to live here yet I have always been one that locked my shit anyway, never understood leaving your house wide open while your sleeping. People were way too trusting for many years and that itself can spur crime

[coldspot]

Look across the Midwest, every city of any size is seeing crime last year

Fargo, Grand Forks, Williston, Minot and Bismarck, all seen Violent crime and with the Population of Fargo doubling and tripling the others we are not that terrible. I know im not scared to live here yet I have always been one that locked my shit anyway, never understood leaving your house wide open while your sleeping. People were way too trusting for many years and that itself can spur crime
I've always locked everything up, but I grew up playing legend of Zelda games. No way am I letting some hipster, in a green skirt, with a sword, freely walk into my house to break my pots and steal my rupees

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[reformedUNDfan]

Some of you don't remember the 90's very well. I remember drive-by's on a number of occasions.

[Mr Meaty]

I lived in Fargo from 1986-1998. There was a fair amount of the crime that never made the news and therefore got out of Fargo. With the 24 hour news cycle now, social media, the news will get out about the crime. With increased population, an increase in crime is and should be expected. The city of Fargo, MHD and WF need to step up with more law enforcement and keep it in check.

[North Side]

I lived in Fargo from 1986-1998. There was a fair amount of the crime that never made the news and therefore got out of Fargo. With the 24 hour news cycle now, social media, the news will get out about the crime. With increased population, an increase in crime is and should be expected. The city of Fargo, MHD and WF need to step up with more law enforcement and keep it in check.

Yes, I am not exactly sure who to voice the concern at? Mayor, Police Chief, City Council, Governor? But I hope someone in public service makes a point to put out the flames before it grows.

[MAKBison]

Yes, I am not exactly sure who to voice the concern at? Mayor, Police Chief, City Council, Governor? But I hope someone in public service makes a point to put out the flames before it grows.

That works until you and your friends start getting more speeding tickets, but I digress. Yes, i agree the Metro needs a few more officers, but I would argue that is not going to do much. The CJ system is the last defense. employing more police is simple a reaction to greater community issues. If you wanna see crime reduction you need to create a greater sense of community.

As the metro grows and becomes more diverse it is more difficult to keep a sense of community. Its not impossible just more difficult. IMO this is where resources need to placed.

[tony]

That works until you and your friends start getting more speeding tickets, but I digress. Yes, i agree the Metro needs a few more officers, but I would argue that is not going to do much. The CJ system is the last defense. employing more police is simple a reaction to greater community issues. If you wanna see crime reduction you need to create a greater sense of community.

As the metro grows and becomes more diverse it is more difficult to keep a sense of community. Its not impossible just more difficult. IMO this is where resources need to placed.

Wait, am I agreeing with somebody? What an odd feeling... :)

[Bookem]

I lived in Fargo from 1986-1998. There was a fair amount of the crime that never made the news and therefore got out of Fargo. With the 24 hour news cycle now, social media, the news will get out about the crime. With increased population, an increase in crime is and should be expected. The city of Fargo, MHD and WF need to step up with more law enforcement and keep it in check.

This is very true, seemed only the major crime was reported/heard about back then. I'm not sure if one could consider it more organized crime back then but the gang stuff seemed more present than todays hooligans. I think many forgot or never heard of the Tendeland shooting, that was a wake up call back then and hope we don't have something like that again to make changes and keep a handle on crime that can be prevented.

[acf2]

Lets be honest, other then a few parts of the area where some drug trafficking happens (corridor between Winnipeg and the cities), Fargo is a generally safe city. I am not worried in the least. Ever been to Rockford Illinois for example? I know its larger then Fargo, but still...

[EndZoneQB]

This is very true, seemed only the major crime was reported/heard about back then. I'm not sure if one could consider it more organized crime back then but the gang stuff seemed more present than todays hooligans. I think many forgot or never heard of the Tendeland shooting, that was a wake up call back then and hope we don't have something like that again to make changes and keep a handle on crime that can be prevented.

Everyone in Moorhead in the 90s remembers full well the issues we used to have, I can promise you that. This stuff today is literally no concern to me.

[MNLonghorn10]

Lets be honest, other then a few parts of the area where some drug trafficking happens (corridor between Winnipeg and the cities), Fargo is a generally safe city. I am not worried in the least. Ever been to Rockford Illinois for example? I know its larger then Fargo, but still...
Rockford, Gary, Flint and Grand Rapids with the FM Beez 15 years ago

[Hammerhead]

Much of the crime in Oregon was commited by meth heads stealing mail, copper, or anything else they could sell to buy their next fix. I'm guessing F-M isn't much different.

[HerdBot]

Much of the crime in Oregon was commited by meth heads stealing mail, copper, or anything else they could sell to buy their next fix. I'm guessing F-M isn't much different.

Meth heads are like zombies. Both figuratively and literally. Except Zombies won't stop until they eat you and meth heads won't stop till they rob you. Once they are infected, thr only way to stop them is to shoot them in the head.

[North Side]

Meth heads are like zombies. Both figuratively and literally. Except Zombies won't stop until they eat you and meth heads won't stop till they rob you. Once they are infected, thr only way to stop them is to shoot them in the head.

http://www.inforum.com/news/4004360-jump-fargo-offenses-2015-blamed-property-crimes-tied-drug-addiction

[MAKBison]

Much of the crime in Oregon was commited by meth heads stealing mail, copper, or anything else they could sell to buy their next fix. I'm guessing F-M isn't much different.

Property crime is usually directly related to drugs. You can generally assume that if you have a lot of theft you have a drug issue

[CAS4127]

Property crime is usually directly related to drugs. You can generally assume that if you have a lot of theft you have a drug issue

Along with convenience store robberies.

[Bison Dan]

What gets me is they always want the taxpayer to pick up the tab for stupid decisions some people make. Take a look at our Social Services budget for the county and state, it's out of control. The majority of which is used for poor decision making.

[EndZoneQB]

http://www.inforum.com/news/4004360-jump-fargo-offenses-2015-blamed-property-crimes-tied-drug-addiction

Treat addiction - don't incarcerate.

[HerdBot]

Treat addiction - don't incarcerate.

In general I agree with that 100% but I'm not going to give some one a free pass on property crimes when they are cracked out. Not an excuse.

I think they need to reinvent drug treatment. Personally I think drug addicts (not pot heads) should be incarcerated but not charged criminally. This after voluntary treatment fails. The only way for a crack head to get clean is to not use. But you can't ruin a guys life and label him as a criminal for life with no future due to drug addiction.

[EndZoneQB]

In general I agree with that 100% but I'm not going to give some one a free pass on property crimes when they are cracked out. Not an excuse.

I think they need to reinvent drug treatment. Personally I think drug addicts (not pot heads) should be incarcerated but not charged criminally. This after voluntary treatment fails. The only way for a crack head to get clean is to not use. But you can't ruin a guys life and label him as a criminal for life with no future due to drug addiction.

Oh, I'm not excusing the property crimes. I'm saying to fix the problem, you treat the source. You charge someone criminally with a drug offense and their life is basically done professionally - talk about stunting potential. Treat it as an illness rather than a criminal offense.

[HerdBot]

Oh, I'm not excusing the property crimes. I'm saying to fix the problem, you treat the source. You charge someone criminally with a drug offense and their life is basically done professionally - talk about stunting potential. Treat it as an illness rather than a criminal offense.

Absolutely. Its totally an addiction. But some people just can't get out of the cycle of addiction and the only way to save them is to temporarily lock them up. I wish they could incarcerate people short term without a life long record.

Now weed should just be totally decriminalized. Hard drugs are a a little different IMO. Meth and heroin are terrible drugs.

[EndZoneQB]

Absolutely. Its totally an addiction. But some people just can't get out of the cycle of addiction and the only way to save them is to temporarily lock them up. I wish they could incarcerate people short term without a life long record.

Now weed should just be totally decriminalized. Hard drugs are a a little different IMO. Meth and heroin are terrible drugs.

I'm absolutely for mandatory treatment...and I don't mean methadone.

You and I differ on the hard drug stance. Decriminalize and legalize. Yes, there is likely going to be a spike in usage right away, but it will pay dividends in the future. It creates a black market full of criminal activity and the substances are unknown. Those overdoses literally would not have happened if it was legal because it wouldn't have been adulterated. Education, education, education. Like I said treat it as a disease...how do you treat the issue of STDs/HIV? Education. Not preaching abstinence.

[HerdBot]

I'm absolutely for mandatory treatment...and I don't mean methadone.

You and I differ on the hard drug stance. Decriminalize and legalize. Yes, there is likely going to be a spike in usage right away, but it will pay dividends in the future. It creates a black market full of criminal activity and the substances are unknown. Those overdoses literally would not have happened if it was legal because it wouldn't have been adulterated. Education, education, education. Like I said treat it as a disease...how do you treat the issue of STDs/HIV? Education. Not preaching abstinence.

I think we're similar in views. I think weed should totally be legal to posess, smoke, grow, and sell. Just like a farmer selling corn at a farmers market. Of course it needs regulation to ensure its not being laced.

Hard drugs like meth I think the dealers are the most despicible people on the planet. The users are kind of a victim of bad decisions and have a very low chance of recovery. Dealers suck so bad they now sell laced drugs that kill people.

The users should given voluntary treatment. Possessing the hard drugs should be a slap on the wrist (like a ticket) and if it's repeated, jail them but with no criminal record. (Treatment )

But one side of me thinks it should be totally legal to poses any drug in small quantities but I don't think you can regulate crack, heroin, and meth. I think you need to lock up the dealers

And education totally works. Just look at drunk driving, seat belts, and smoking. When I was a kid all of those things were epidemic levels and are improving. I wish they ran smoking style commercials showing what meth or heroin does to you. Had meth heads grew up seeing commercials of zombie looking people with rotten teeth, it may have influenced them.

I'm also in total support of legalized prostitution. It's legal to give it away.

[NDSU1980]

What gets me is they always want the taxpayer to pick up the tab for stupid decisions some people make. Take a look at our Social Services budget for the county and state, it's out of control. The majority of which is used for poor decision making.

You can blame that who fiasco on liberal politicians who think those that work should provide for those who don't or won't work.

[tjbison]

You can blame that who fiasco on liberal politicians who think those that work should provide for those who don't or won't work.

the tax payers pay for all the stupid decisions politicians make, liberal and conservative

[bisonaudit]

You can blame that who fiasco on liberal politicians who think those that work should provide for those who don't or won't work.

Such a crock of shit. How may liberals have won an election in ND in the last two decades?

[Answer Guy]

You can blame that who fiasco on liberal politicians who think those that work should provide for those who don't or won't work.

The whole "no politics" policy doesn't apply to you.

Carry on.

[NDSU1980]

The whole "no politics" policy doesn't apply to you.

Carry on.It doesn't seem to apply to audit either apparently.

[bri-dog]

Is this heaven? No, it's North Dakota...

http://www.wcpm3.com/fargo/kevin-costner-explains-why-hes-moving-to-fargo-north-dakota/

[bisonaudit]

It doesn't seem to apply to audit either apparently.

I gave you 3 blatantly partisan post without saying a thing.

[stevdock]

Such a crock of shit. How may liberals have won an election in ND in the last two decades?

What election are you talking about?? There has been at least one Democrat senator from ND since the 60's and over half of the last 60 years I would guess at least 2 out of our 3 reps have been Democrat.

[BlueBisonRock]

Looks like Bisonville will be down tomorrow. Long live the political discussion on a sports board.

[Gully]

I favor legalization. The reason there are so many nasty people involved in the drug trade is there is somewhat of a barrier to entry (it's illegal) so it's more profitable than it would be in an open market......drawing in the nasty people. Legalization will bring competition which will improve the quality (think safety) and drive out the economic profit. Drug related crime will then fall. That's not partisan either, I think most people in both major parties apparently disagree with these views. I suppose you could say I'm a partisan Libertarian though :)

[scottietohottie]

Is this heaven? No, it's North Dakota...

http://www.wcpm3.com/fargo/kevin-costner-explains-why-hes-moving-to-fargo-north-dakota/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svooK-EkPLo

[bisonaudit]

What election are you talking about?? There has been at least one Democrat senator from ND since the 60's and over half of the last 60 years I would guess at least 2 out of our 3 reps have been Democrat.

I think maybe you're confusing liberals and democrats.

[scottietohottie]

Well since we're getting into politics I might as well add my 2 cents before it's shutdown. Ted Cruz a bad lip reading is the funniest shit I've seen in a long time. Once you've watched it that silly little voice is all you hear when he talks on the TV. Mmm I love hair. Can you cut me an orange rug? Nah we don't make those here. Google it or Bing it. It's funny.

[tjbison]

I took a drive this AM to listen to Kolpack and Izzo and check out some areas I haven't been to in the southwest part of the City...wow the growth

[Hammerhead]

I know a jailer at one of the county jails and she says many of the inmate know they are in there due to meth and when she asks them what they want to go when they get out, the universal answer is get high on meth again.


Absolutely. Its totally an addiction. But some people just can't get out of the cycle of addiction and the only way to save them is to temporarily lock them up. I wish they could incarcerate people short term without a life long record.

Now weed should just be totally decriminalized. Hard drugs are a a little different IMO. Meth and heroin are terrible drugs.

[HerdBot]

I know a jailer at one of the county jails and she says many of the inmate know they are in there due to meth and when she asks them what they want to go when they get out, the universal answer is get high on meth again.

Well duh. They are having withdrawal symptoms which will pass only with time. But yeah, some people will relapse even after time. It's usually due to thr fact they hang out with loser friends. It's like trying to quit smoking when everyone you knows smokes.

[HerdBot]

I took a drive this AM to listen to Kolpack and Izzo and check out some areas I haven't been to in the southwest part of the City...wow the growth

52nd and south of it plus along Veterans Blvd is crazy. Google maps last update doesn't even have the bridge going over the interstate

[MNLonghorn10]

I took a drive this AM to listen to Kolpack and Izzo and check out some areas I haven't been to in the southwest part of the City...wow the growth
We do this when looking at the shomes being built West of wf sheyenne. There are some sick homes out there just south of the splash pad. Hope they're on the parade of homes this year to remind me how poor I am when we go on the tour

[unbison]

We do this when looking at the shomes being built West of wf sheyenne. There are some sick homes out there just south of the splash pad. Hope they're on the parade of homes this year to remind me how poor I am when we go on the tour
How about the one just north of 40th I believe with the copper roof me gutters... I can't imagine how much that cost as it was built when copper was ridiculous high priced

[Twentysix]

Lets be honest, other then a few parts of the area where some drug trafficking happens (corridor between Winnipeg and the cities), Fargo is a generally safe city. I am not worried in the least. Ever been to Rockford Illinois for example? I know its larger then Fargo, but still...

Yeah try New Haven. The area around Yale is a fucking nightmare.

It's basically the same size as Fargo. Just a touch over 100,000, and it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US.

When I lived there there were body parts strewn across the city because someone hacked a homeless man apart and played hide and go seek with his body parts. Anytime, literally every freaking day, I sat by the windows there were gun shots. Someone was shot outside my apt at 4pm. (I was a 10 minute walk from Yale)

Fargo is very safe, and affordable. On top of this horrendous crime, a 1 bdrm in this shitty area that was much safer than adjacent areas of new haven was more than $1200/mo for a box built two hundred years ago that hadn't been kept up for 40 years.

[MNLonghorn10]

How about the one just north of 40th I believe with the copper roof me gutters... I can't imagine how much that cost as it was built when copper was ridiculous high priced

havent seen but ill look for it. that would look sweet.

[A1pigskin]

Yeah try New Haven. The area around Yale is a fucking nightmare.

It's basically the same size as Fargo. Just a touch over 100,000, and it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US.

When I lived there there were body parts strewn across the city because someone hacked a homeless man apart and played hide and go seek with his body parts. Anytime, literally every freaking day, I sat by the windows there were gun shots. Someone was shot outside my apt at 4pm. (I was a 10 minute walk from Yale)

Fargo is very safe, and affordable. On top of this horrendous crime, a 1 bdrm in this shitty area that was much safer than adjacent areas of new haven was more than $1200/mo for a box built two hundred years ago that hadn't been kept up for 40 years.

I was in New Orleans in 1991 staying at a Howard Johnsons and as I was leaving one of the workers stopped me and had me wait for a 1/2 hour before going out. Someone was stabbed to death that morning and was still on the sidewalk. I had a few more incidents while in NO. I was happy to leave.

[tjbison]

I was in New Orleans in 1991 staying at a Howard Johnsons and as I was leaving one of the workers stopped me and had me wait for a 1/2 hour before going out. Someone was stabbed to death that morning and was still on the sidewalk. I had a few more incidents while in NO. I was happy to leave.
Place is a first class shithole

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[HerdBot]

Yeah try New Haven. The area around Yale is a fucking nightmare.

It's basically the same size as Fargo. Just a touch over 100,000, and it is one of the most dangerous cities in the US.

When I lived there there were body parts strewn across the city because someone hacked a homeless man apart and played hide and go seek with his body parts. Anytime, literally every freaking day, I sat by the windows there were gun shots. Someone was shot outside my apt at 4pm. (I was a 10 minute walk from Yale)

Fargo is very safe, and affordable. On top of this horrendous crime, a 1 bdrm in this shitty area that was much safer than adjacent areas of new haven was more than $1200/mo for a box built two hundred years ago that hadn't been kept up for 40 years.

Fargo is still generally safe. Maybe not as over the top safe (like if you lose your wallet, people will bring it back with money in it) as it was 5 years ago, but I really never worry about stuff. I forget to lock my car and doors many times per week. Heck a few times I even fell asleep and forgot to close my garage door. I've never been a victim of an assault, burglary, or even vandalism.

it may be different if I lived in a different part of town though and I rarely go to bars or downtown.

I do know some people who have been victims though. i'm concerned with all the creepy people coming in. Doesn't seem like the best and brightest are coming here. Just loser gang people, drug dealers, and just overall shitty people.