UND Sioux--No More??

[Bison_Kent]

Here is a Forum article, courtesy of the AP stating that Indian names will be banned from any NCAA postseason tournament.

http://in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=99569&section=sports

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

I was just reading about this on ESPN. This will be big. FSU will have to change their uniforms for bowl games, removing the "Noles" from their jerseys and Helmets (very small) and from their pants. illinois will have to have new unis for any post season play also. UND will have to have new jerseys for post season play and will need to remove the Sioux name from the front of their helmets.

UND will also, according to the story, need to cover up all Sioux head logos when they host the Regional Tourney for hockey next season and any other playoff game they will host.

This is going to be a very expensive ruling and I see it as a stepping stone to a more aggressive ruling about the use of the names. Although, the NCAA cannot force the teams to change their names, they can choose to not allow them in NCAA sanctioned events. It will take an awfully long time to pass the ruling though, as it will be hard to sort out what names are offensive. Do all names of people have to go? Will Notre Dame need to change their name? It will be very interesting if Notre Dame, FSU, Illinois, UND, and all these schools join together to fight this. May take quite some time.

[JBB]

1) Apparently this only applies to NCAA tournament games:

Nicknames or mascots deemed "hostile or abusive" would not be allowed by teams on their uniforms or other clothing beginning with any NCAA tournament after Feb. 1, said Harrison, the University of Hartford's president.

"What each institution decides to do is really its own business" outside NCAA championship events, he said.

2) Maybe und can get a favorable ruling on this. How much would the management company have to pony up to control the NCAA like they influenced the university:

Guidelines were not immediately available on which logos and nicknames would be considered "hostile or abusive."

3) I guess this means change or no more playoff games in any sport:

The NCAA plans to ban schools using Indian nicknames from hosting postseason events. Harrison said schools with such mascots that have already been selected as tournament sites would be asked to cover any offensive logos.

Such logos also would be prohibited at postseason games on cheerleader and band uniforms starting in 2008.

[BISON_PRIDE]

I almost feel bad for the die hard fans at UND. I guess it's go back to being the Flickertails for them, unless they put in a call to the NAIA.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

I almost feel bad for the die hard fans at UND. *I guess it's go back to being the Flickertails for them, unless they put in a call to the NAIA.
Don't feel bad for us, we'll take of it one way or another $$ talks and FSU, Illinois, Notre Dame, UND and the others have quite a bit of money to fight this with.

[JBB]

I thought the athletic budget was in the red?

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

I thought the athletic budget was in the red?

We seem to have alumni that are willing to support their school, unlike some other schools. 8)

[Bison_Dan]

I wonder how long it will take for und to blame NDSU for this? The last time this came up it was because Bison fans yelled sue suck and we all needed sensitively training according to Phil H. at und.

[Gamehunter]

We seem to have alumni that are willing to support their school, unlike some other schools. 8)


Oh come on SYY, it is not even fair to compare your alumni base to the likes of Mankato and Mayville State. Of course und* alum matter are going to have deeper pockets for their highly successfull dii sports that consistently become national champions every century or so.

[kchats]

Don't feel bad for us, we'll take of it one way or another $$ talks and FSU, Illinois, Notre Dame, UND and the others have quite a bit of money to fight this with. *

Which tribe is the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame? I don't think Notre Dame will be protesting the Indian mascot name very much.

[kchats]

An article from CBS Sportsline that mentions UND's nickname of Fighting Sioux as being ridiculous and says it is as bad at St. Johns former nickname the Redmen. He says they didn't do enough if they were going to do something basically.

http://www.sportsline.com/collegefootball/story/8707724/1

[Bisonguy]

Looks like Mike McFeely won't be making it on the "A" list in Grand Forks any longer:

The clock ticks on nicknames (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=99640&section=Sports)


MikeMcFeelyThe Forum, The Forum
Published Saturday, August 06, 2005


Oh, those were halcyon days, weren’t they? Ralph and his boys could thumb their noses, flip their middle digits and slap each other on the back – laughing dismissively the entire time, of course – while reasonable people tried to be heard.
The voices said, “This Sioux logo isn’t right. It is from another time, a time when we didn’t appreciate that making a race of people into stereotyped cartoon characters was offensive. This needs to change.”

But Ralph Engelstad and his minions would bully, intimidate and name-call. Mature, intelligent discourse was shoved aside by the arrogance of all those dollars.

Ralph threatened to let his beautiful arena, his $100 million ode to Sioux hockey and the all-important logo, turn to dust and blow away in the prairie wind should the nickname be changed. He wrote insulting letters to University of North Dakota faculty members who dared disagree with him. What was it one of his lackeys called those who were protesting the Sioux logo? Wasn’t it “pimples on an elephant’s behind?”

And, of course, there were all those logos in the arena. About 3,000 of them, by some accounts. On the ice, the floors, the walls, the seats. Anywhere. Everywhere. It was Ralph’s final punchline to the big joke he was playing on those who protested the Sioux nickname.

“May this logo and the Fighting Sioux logo stand forever,” Ralph said at his arena’s grand opening.

It very well might. But not without a hefty price to UND. Unless it wants to join the NAIA.

Payback for all that arrogance and condescension began Friday, when the NCAA banned the use of American Indian nicknames and mascots by teams during its postseason tournaments. The NCAA also said teams with such nicknames cannot host postseason play.............................................. ..........

[wfduck]

Looks like Mike McFeely won't be making it on the "A" list in Grand Forks any longer:

The clock ticks on nicknames (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=99640&section=Sports)




so where is McFeely welcomed...I hear he's on the A list in Abercrombie

[JBB]

Not much on this story in the hearold. this is all I found.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/local/12317416.htm

[Bison_Dan]

I see und is already hinting that the state should pay for the cover up or name switch. I feel much better that the shed and rea are not state owned.

[Bisonguy]

I see und is already hinting that the state should pay for the cover up or name switch. *I feel much better that the shed and rea are not state owned.

The Alerus has very few Sioux logos or names, in fact, the only major one that I know of are the logos in the endzones of the turf. Those are not painted on, they're permanently in the turf (just like the Fargodome logos and the lines in the Fargodome turf). REA, on the other hand, would take some work......

[SDbison]

I don't like und or most Sue fans but I can't believe all the Political Correctness (PC) and sensitivity crap. Someone has too much time on their hands, especially a-hole lawyers trying to make a buck over anything. America is soon to be land of the wimps. We can't stop the influx of illegal foreigners, including terrorists, because of the fear of insulting the hispanic population. We can't focus on the physical attributes of those who have attacked our country since racial profiling is now wrong. Even the PC folks in England have to provide dignity to the "terrorists" by calling them "bombers" instead. Now the NCAA in its ultimate wisdom wants to mandate what is an appropriate mascot. If it is really the intent of the Indians to remove the war painted faces that they believe is a negative image, then maybe they should first look at improving the attributes that most in the Midwest know to be their real problems, not a Sioux mascot. Does anyone else see the current PC epidemic as wrong, or has enough of the younger generation been brainwashed into oblivion? Here I am siding with und, but if the NCAA wants fighting Sioux removed, then the fighting Irish has to go too. Are all Irish little men with beards that fight? I guess we are all too stupid anymore to know the difference between a mascot and reality!

[Bisonguy]

I don't have enough info (and probably never will) to make a decision on whether the American Indian nicknames are appropriate or not, but the comparison to Notre Dame holds no ground (at least in respect to UND). Notre Dame was founded by people of Irish decent, UND was not founded by Sioux tribes.

[JBB]

This is my barroom assessment:

Lawyers did this. *Political correct is a creature of the feminist movement. *What we say is what we are so we cant say fireman, no, fire person. *Lawyers saw to it that the changes were made and it has now become a driving principle. *Well, because of lawyers, the tail has been able to wag the dog a lot in this country and Title IX is another good example. *It seems ironic that und*# should now become a victim of lawyers. *After all, they turn them out by the dozen every year! *

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

Which tribe is the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame? *I don't think Notre Dame will be protesting the Indian mascot name very much.

If they make the schools with indian names change you can bet there will be much talk about changing Notre Dame, USC, etc. Anyone with a name that represents a group of people will be looked at.

[insane_ponderer]

NDSU's student government a few years ago passed a bill to not recognize UND as the Fighting Sioux, it was kinda a joke at the time and sort of a publicity stunt but at the time I was against the bill. I don't really see anything wrong with say the cleveland indians, atlanta braves, or some of the other ones.

I think the problem comes in when its:

1. a direct tribal name, i.e. sioux, seminoles, utes etc.

or 2. when its especially offensive i.e. the wash. redskins

i mean lets think about it that would be like having a sports team called the negros...

it would be nice if both sides of this could reach a compromise and get rid of the offensive ones and keep the non offensive ones, but naturally both sides think they are right so we will see who wins in the end.

[stater]

If they make the schools with indian names change you can bet there will be much talk about changing Notre Dame, USC, etc. Anyone with a name that represents a group of people will be looked at.

The difference between Indian names and the fighting irish, trojans etc. is that irish citiizens were never subjected to the same types of injustices in this country that indians were. I don't recall ever having wars with and putting irish people on reservations, while taking their land, do you? I don't understand how people on the one hand can say that indian nicknames like fighting sioux are alright, but then shudder at the thought of having names like fighting negros, the blackies etc are terrible. Why does nobody equate these names with fighting irish? Could it be because african americans in this country went through hundredes of years of persecution and slavery, and the irish and trojans didn't? Its stupid to lump all groups in the same category, because not all groups of people have the same social experiences. Irish people haven't suffered in this country in the same way that other social groups have.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

The difference between Indian names and the fighting irish, trojans etc. is that irish citiizens were never subjected to the same types of injustices in this country that indians were. *I don't recall ever having wars with and putting irish people on reservations, while taking their land, do you? *I don't understand how people on the one hand can say that indian nicknames like fighting sioux are alright, but then shudder at the thought of having names like fighting negros, the blackies etc are terrible. *Why does nobody equate these names with fighting irish? *Could it be because african americans in this country went through hundredes of years of persecution and slavery, and the irish and trojans didn't? *Its stupid to lump all groups in the same category, because not all groups of people have the same social experiences. *Irish people haven't suffered in this country in the same way that other social groups have. *


Good points.

So only groups that have REALLY suffered should not be used as mascots. Blacks suffered quite a bit so we won't use "negroes" or "niggers" as team names. Whites haven't really suffered that much so we can use "Crackers" or "Hokies" (which V Tech does)

We also need to see which animals have "really suffered":

The American Bison was killed down to small numbers and run off much of their native land. There are very few "free roaming" buffalo around anymore. So NDSU should stop using the name Bison because of the suffering that the American Bison has gone through.

There are millions of gophers around the country so Minnesota should be able to keep their name, but if kids keep killing them with shovels and pellet guns then that may change.

The whole thing will have to now be looked at to see which names are offensive. Who is to judge which ones are offensive? Should we have a nationwide vote?

This is so dumb, there will be many, many hours spent in the courts over this!

[GCWaters]

Except "Hokies" doesn't refer to white people. Widely rumored to have referred to a castrated turkey, it is apparantly just a word from a fight song that the university used early in its history. You, I believe, are thinking of "honkies."

What I find amusing in this is that UND fans, having spent the last year telling Bision fans not to put NDSU in the same league as Minnesota, Nebraska, etc., are now acting as if UND is a national peer to Florida State, etc., and acting as if the NCAA gives a crap what administrators in Grand Forks think.

My opinion is that this will stand. The NCAA is a voluntary organization, no one has to belong. Schools make a decision to join, to let the NCAA make rules, and to abide by those rules. Where's the legal loophole that I'm not seeing?

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

I was thinking of honkies, my bad. And one of my buddies just told me about the turkey thing, pretty funny.

The legality issue is that they are allowing some groups of people to be used but not others. It is unfiar for the NCAA to tell American Indian tribes that their name cannot be used as a nickname but that people of Irish descent can. Who is going to decide whether it is showing pride for the tribe or not? Why would a school/team ever choose a name to mock the people for which it stands? I understand the stance on names like Redskins where the name is obviously offensive, but to use the name of a people you would have to believe it is in the truest honor of the name.

Having said this, I'm not one who is "all out" "balls to the wall" about keeping the name. I wouldn't be up in arms if they made UND change, but if they do they should make all schools with names of people change theirs. I also am irritated that they only went half way with it. Take the time, do the research and make the big decision that needs to be made. This ruling really doesn't mean too much to any of the schools involved, but may get the ball rolling on the much larger issue at hand. The only problem this causes UND in the near future is the possibility of not being allowed to host playoff football games (which has been a regularity in the recent past) or other post season events. The REA covering up the "Sioux" name and logos will be pretty funny IF it happens. Remember the NCAA is "asking" them to do this. It will be an interesting time with many schools involved. Hopefully the "pull" that FSU, Illinois, and other big time rograms have will help this process be an even one. It won't be just UND v. NCAA.

By the way, I'm Irish and I don't find the drunken Irishman offensive as of now, but believe me, if the NCAA passes the name change policy the Notre Dame mascot and nickname might sound a little more offensive to me and many others. ;)

[Bisonguy]

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah,

Isn't UND supposed to be hosting one of the DII BB regionals or finals in the near future?

[GCWaters]

The difference between Indian names and the fighting irish, trojans etc. is that irish citiizens were never subjected to the same types of injustices in this country that indians were. I don't recall ever having wars with and putting irish people on reservations, while taking their land, do you? I don't understand how people on the one hand can say that indian nicknames like fighting sioux are alright, but then shudder at the thought of having names like fighting negros, the blackies etc are terrible. Why does nobody equate these names with fighting irish? Could it be because african americans in this country went through hundredes of years of persecution and slavery, and the irish and trojans didn't? Its stupid to lump all groups in the same category, because not all groups of people have the same social experiences. Irish people haven't suffered in this country in the same way that other social groups have.



I think this is on the money...plus, wasn't Notre Dame founded by Irish Catholics? Surely we see a difference...

[roadwarrior]

PLEASE PLEASE dont let PETA get involved and argue that the use of animal names is "hostile or abusive" to animals ::)

[Bisonguy]

PLEASE PLEASE dont let PETA get involved and argue that the use of animal names is "hostile or abusive" to animals ::)

If a herd of bison begin protesting outside of the Fargdome and the BSA, and start writing letters to president Chapman asking for the removal of the Bison nickname by NDSU, I hope that president Chapman would at least form a committee to look at the nickname issue. *:P

Edit - a bunch of hippie freaks dressed up like bison would not count. They have to be the real bison bison.

[Bison_Kent]

I think this is on the money...plus, wasn't Notre Dame founded by Irish Catholics? *Surely we see a difference...

That is correct GCWaters. UND wasn't founded by a Sioux Chief or a Sioux tribe.

Personnally, I can't imagine UND with a different nickname. But I am sure fans and alumni of St. John's(NY), Marquette, SE Missouri State, and Morningside never thought their mascots would change but all of these schools now have new mascots replaceing the Native American nicknames they had previously.

St. John's was the Redmen (now Red Storm). Marquette was the Warriors (now the Golden Eagles). SE Missouri State was the Indians (now the Redhawks). Morningside was the Maroon Chiefs (now the Mustangs).

Some schools believed that they should change their nicknames and likely saw the writing on the wall coming from the NCAA.

[SDbison]

Still a sad day in sports that all mascots must be screened to satisfy the sensitivities of some disenfranchised group. I am sure that when all the indian related mascots are removed the reservations will be cleaned up and all their problems will go away. Maybe its time to start paying reparations to everyone that was ever wronged. Where does that stop? I think the Scandinavians owe big time for all the raping and pillaging by the Vikings. How agout the Germans paying the families of the Holocaust and other victims of WWII. What about all the killing during the crusades? Maybe we should give America back to the indians and the mexicans. That would solve everything. My advice to the whiners......get over it! Start looking to improve your own self. family and ethnic group before you blame others and demand sympathy.

[Hammerhead]

Why don't the Fighting Flickertails go back to their original colors of pink and green when they get rid of the logos. ;D

[02Bison]

Still a sad day in sports that all mascots must be screened to satisfy the sensitivities of some disenfranchised group. * I am sure that when all the indian related mascots are removed the reservations will be cleaned up and all their problems will go away. *Maybe its time to start paying reparations to everyone that was ever wronged. *Where does that stop? *I think the Scandinavians owe big time for all the raping and pillaging by the Vikings. *How agout the Germans paying the families of the Holocaust and other victims of WWII. *What about all the killing during the crusades? *Maybe we should give America back to the indians and the mexicans. *That would solve everything. *My advice to the whiners......get over it! *Start looking to improve your own self. family and ethnic group before you blame others and demand sympathy. *

Actually SDBISON, its not the nickname that is the problem. Its the defacing of the symbols/mascots that is being done by so many that is so appaling. I can understand the Sioux Nation being upset when seeing signs on TV with defaced symbolisms of them being diplayed with such sayings as "a century or sucking", etc. The problem isn't the mascot itself, its the idiots that choose to deface their oponents rather than respect them and display sportsmanship. Its time for sports fans to start acting like good sports again. The game in the stands has gotten "way too dirty".

[JBB]

I think you should read the letters from the tribal chiefs BisonGuy posted on AGS. *You will learn from those letters that the name is objectionable because it means snake in the grass and was used as an insult by the early traders. *Never was it mentioned by any of the Tribal Leaders that poor sportsmanship was at the heart of this issue. *

Self loathing is a tradition with some and as much as some want to make it our fault you should focus on the objectional marketing like the "Siouxper” shot glass if you need to point to a reason outside of the Indian Nations true objection.

[Bisonguy]

I think you should read the letters from the tribal chiefs BisonGuy posted on AGS. *You will learn from those letters that the name is objectionable because it means snake in the grass and was used as an insult by the early traders. *Never was it mentioned by any of the Tribal Leaders that poor sportsmanship was at the heart of this issue. *

Self loathing is a tradition with some and as much as some want to make it our fault you should focus on the objectional marketing like the "Siouxper” shot glass if you need to point to a reason outside of the Indian Nations true objection.

The other major objection that I have seen by members of the Sioux tribes is that the name is stereotyping them as warriors.

[GCWaters]

Couple of posts on SiouxSports suggesting that Notre Dame was not founded by Irish Catholics, and that there are a number of other possible origins of the nickname....

[BISON_PRIDE]

I doubt that anyone who says the Native American tribes are being too sensitive have, ever been truely offened by others regarding their race, religion, or culture. Unless you have lived in their shoes you just can't understand the situation.

[SDbison]

I doubt that anyone who says the Native American tribes are being too sensitive have, ever been truely offened by others regarding their race, religion, or culture. *Unless you have lived in their shoes you just can't understand the situation. *
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
So the Mascot thing prevents an Indian from exercising religion, pursuing his or her career, or participating in a cultural event. This is all a bunch of crap by a small minority of do gooders and whining tribes that want to get back at the rest of America for taking their land. GET OVER IT!

[SDbison]

The other major objection that I have seen by members of the Sioux tribes is that the name is stereotyping them as warriors.

Gee, I don't remember the last time I saw an Indian coming down the street with a war bonnet and spear in hand. Most people with any sort of education know many indian tribes were peaceful, but then there were others that were not. Was the white man peaceful? Some were and some were not. Get a grip people. If you can't separate a mascot from the real heritage your IQ must be awefully low. This whole thing is just ridiculous. Its's like, I have Scandinavian heritage, give me some money Minnesota Vikings or I will have your mascot removed. This is totally absurd, stupid, and a waste of everyones time.

[JBB]

right now the do-gooder name changers have the power and can make these schools at least sacrifice something if they dont submit. The name changers win one! I enjoy it without trying to decide who is right or wrong. ::)

Its one heck of a negative position, and expensive one too, for the university. Whos money are they going to spend to protect their position? I dont think there will be any divisional change until this issue is resolved.

I say they keep their name, have non-denominational playoff jerseys, and be allowed to host if they cover all symbols. Who cares, really? But hey, tough luck boys! :D

[markerman]

Some of you need to think before you speak. These comparisons to other ethnic group teams (i.e. Irish, Vikings, etc.) not only hold no water, but it mocks the valid complaints that Native Americans and others have about some of these nicknames. If you are ACTUALLY offended by the Irish or Vikings or Trojans, then that is fine. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! But don't pretend to be offended just to try and justify your viewpoint.

I, or any other WASP cannot pretend to know what it makes some Native Americans feel like to see their culture portrayed as a people who do nothing but start wars and have "red" skin.

If you aren't offended, fine, but some are and to not be sensitive to that is spitting in the face of the very people these schools are "honoring."

[Gamehunter]

Ummmm yeah.....that is just what I was about to say :-/

[kchats]

When UND decided to become the Figthing Sioux did they consult with the Lakota tribal leaders? If so did they get their blessing and do they have that blessing in writing? If not you can't say the tribal leaders feel honored by having schools use Native American imagery and nicknames. Florida State had one tribe in Florida that is OK with the use of Seminoles but others protest. If UND wants to honor the Lakota tribe maybe they need to visit with the tribal leaders and come up with a new nickname that meets their approval. Maybe they could become the UND Lakota or something like that but I really don't think it will happen.

If they go back to the Flickertails what a rivalry the hockey matchup will be with the Gophers playing the Flickertails. A rodents dream.

Another great option would be the mosquitos since they strike fear in everyone. The mascot could generate a good buzz around town. ;)

[kchats]

Why The Bison?
North Dakota State University's
athletic teams have progressed
from the "Farmers" in
the 1890s, to the "Aggies" in the early
1900s, to the "Bison," North Dakota
State's current athletic symbol. It was
developed by head football coach
Stan Borleske in 1919 because he
and members of the football team
didn't like being known as the Aggies.
Borleske wanted a strong and fierce
mascot. The Bison was a logical
choice. The great animals once
roamed the North Dakota prairie in
vast numbers, and over the years
Bison athletic teams added an
additional name, the "Thundering
Herd."

This comes from the media guide for the Bison. It provides an explanation for the nickname and also the origin of the nickname. Does UND have a similar explanation for the Fighting Sioux in their media guide? If so I would love to see it.

[BISON_PRIDE]

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
So the Mascot thing prevents an Indian from exercising religion, pursuing his or her career, or participating in a cultural event. *This is all a bunch of crap by a small minority of do gooders and whining tribes that want to get back at the rest of America for taking their land. *GET OVER IT! *

The point I was trying to make which I think you missed was this - when have YOU ever had your race, religion or culture truly offended? *If never, than you are ignorant to their situation, like I am.

The mascot of the Fighting Sioux offends their race and culture. *How does it do that? *Read this from SCSU President Roy H. Saigo’s presentation on the use of American Indian Mascots to the NCAA Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee on Monday, Jan. 28, 2002. * It explains it much better than I can. *http://condor.stcloudstate.edu/issues/mascot.html

[tony]

I think there are a lot of Sioux who don't mind the nickname.

OTOH, UND had their chance to meet with the Sioux and come to an agreement. They chose to ignore their objections. Maybe it's not too late. Cripes. Go to the Sioux tribes and tell them, "If you put this issue to a vote of your people, we will abide by their decision. If you do grant us use of your nickname, we will consult you before releasing products and, if you ever feel that we have violated your trust in this matter, you can stage another vote - in fact, we could schedule a new vote to renew this agreement every ten years.

To me, some of the arguments against the nickname seem patronizing and some seem misguided (if "Sioux" is insulting, then why use it in tribal names?). However, just telling the Sioux that "You are being stupid" or "You don't care about this issue anyway" (or worse (http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/images/buck.jpg)) is tremendously insulting. That's not how you treat an honored friend.

I'm also pretty sure it's not helpful when Bison fans get involved in telling UND what to do either - funny how they don't like to be talked down to :)

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

Some of you need to think before you speak. *These comparisons to other ethnic group teams (i.e. Irish, Vikings, etc.) not only hold no water, but it mocks the valid complaints that Native Americans and others have about some of these nicknames. *If you are ACTUALLY offended by the Irish or Vikings or Trojans, then that is fine. *DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! *But don't pretend to be offended just to try and justify your viewpoint. *

I, or any other WASP cannot pretend to know what it makes some Native Americans feel like to see their culture portrayed as a people who do nothing but start wars and have "red" skin. *

If you aren't offended, fine, but some are and to not be sensitive to that is spitting in the face of the very people these schools are "honoring."

Hold no water? Portraying the Irish people as small, drunk, and always getting in fights? That's not portraying them in a bad light? You need to think before you post.

[JBB]

It doesnt matter, UND (not und*#) was established by the Irish so they can call it anything they want. The same test applies to other universities. You are exempt if you were founded as part of the group your nickname represents. Unfortunately not the case for und*#.

[Herd_Mentality]

Actually...if you were to "think before you post", you'd realize that Notre Dame's mascot is not a Irishman at all, but a Leprechaun. *Leprechauns are a fictional being, so it be hard to find one opposed to the mascot.

The "Fighting Irish" moniker was adopted at Notre Dame in 1927. *Before that they were known as the Catholics and the Ramblers. *The "Fighting Irish" moniker was what opponents would call Notre Dame teams to mock them...and the university turned around and accepted it and used it as a sign of strength.

With that in mind...the University of North Dakota Fighting Suck might be appropriate.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

Actually...if you were to "think before you post", you'd realize that Notre Dame's mascot is not a Irishman at all, but a Leprechaun. *Leprechauns are a fictional being, so it be hard to find one opposed to the mascot.


Aren't they called the "Fighting Irish"? So they are saying Irish are Leprechauns. I find that to pretty offensive, as I am Irish and not a Leprechaun, I just play one on TV. UND does not have a mascot, so that must be just fine then as you only speak of the Irish mascot. Come on!

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

It doesnt matter, UND (not und*#) was established by the Irish so they can call it anything they want. *The same test applies to other universities. *You are exempt if you were founded as part of the group your nickname represents. *Unfortunately not the case for und*#.

So there were a group of buffalo that started NDSU? I guess I didn't know that. Would explain some stuff though ;D

[JBB]

Good one! *But no sense in being rediculous? *We dont have a group of lawyers representing the community of native Bison who feel a deep injustice to NDSU using the nickname BISON forcing the NCAA to make us stop using it. * :)

Lacking the social outcry that has driven the NCAA to abandon abusive nicknames like yours, I doubt BISON will ever be challenged.*

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

Good one! *But no sense in being rediculous? *We dont have a group of lawyers representing the community of native Bison who feel a deep injustice to NDSU using the nickname BISON forcing the NCAA to make us stop using it. * :) *

Lacking the social outcry that has driven the NCAA to abandon abusive nicknames like yours, I doubt BISON will ever be challenged.*

PETA ;)

[markerman]

SYY, if you are SERIOUSLY offended by the Irish moniker and mascot, then I'm sure you understand why the Lakota and others want the Sioux name changed, thus I'm sure you have no problem with the NCAA's decision. :-/

[Bison_Dan]

So there were a group of buffalo that started NDSU? *I guess I didn't know that. *Would explain some stuff though ;D

SYY I wouldn't worry about the BISON nickname, it will be here for a long time. Too bad I can't say the same thing about the und's name. Be ready to open the checkbook sue fans.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

SYY, if you are SERIOUSLY offended by the Irish moniker and mascot, then I'm sure you understand why the Lakota and others want the Sioux name changed, thus I'm sure you have no problem with the NCAA's decision. *:-/ *


The problem I have is that I don't see how it is going to help the people to whom the name offends. I would rather see the NCAA set up rules that schools, in order to have a name of a group of people, need to have programs and money, in set amounts, that teach about or benefit that group. I think this would be a great way to not only help these groups, but make everyone happier in the end.

I do not find the Irish name to be offensive actually, but I do find it quite offensive that the NCAA is telling groups of people that they are not going to be allowed to be honored in name. Why allow one group and not another? That's where the problem is.

[BisonMav]

Although I am not a anti-native mascot person. It would probably be cheaper and cause less of a scene if UND just changed it's name and moved on. A lot of time and money that could be used for something more positive. 100 years from now, none of us will care.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

SYY I wouldn't worry about the BISON nickname, it will be here for a long time. *Too bad I can't say the same thing about the und's name. *Be ready to open the checkbook sue fans.


Yeah, I'm not real worried about the Bison name. It would be a shame if they had to change it, for an arument from PETA.

This does go back to my last post however. Maybe schools with the names of animal should have to put money into that species to help maintain it. That could be really helpful and a good use of money.

[BISON_PRIDE]

We already DO!!

Buffalo burgers are tasty! :D

[kchats]

Do the Native American Tribal Leaders actually feel they are being honored by the college and professional teams nicknames and mascots? I don't think they do but I could be wrong. Can you post a letter where a Tribal Leader is upset that his tribe won't be honored by a nickname or mascot at a college or university?

The Kansas City Chiefs have quite a few protests at Arrowhead Stadium and their name was actually in reference to the Mayor of Kansas City that helped bring the team to Kansas City. He was known as the Chief. The symbols and imagery are now more Native American in nature but that isn't why they are the Chiefs.

[Bisonguy]

Do the Native American Tribal Leaders actually feel they are being honored by the college and professional teams nicknames and mascots? *I don't think they do but I could be wrong. *Can you post a letter where a Tribal Leader is upset that his tribe won't be honored by a nickname or mascot at a college or university?

The Kansas City Chiefs have quite a few protests at Arrowhead Stadium and their name was actually in reference to the Mayor of Kansas City that helped bring the team to Kansas City. *He was known as the Chief. *The symbols and imagery are now more Native American in nature but that isn't why they are the Chiefs.

Here's a collection of letters from the Sioux tribal councils- http://www.uiuc.edu/dialogue/und_pdf/Tribal_Statements.pdf
I don't know how complete or accurate it is, as it seems the tribal councils sometimes have their opinions swayed.


posted by: BisonMav Posted on: Today at 1:41pm
Although I am not a anti-native mascot person. It would probably be cheaper and cause less of a scene if UND just changed it's name and moved on. A lot of time and money that could be used for something more positive. 100 years from now, none of us will care.

That's the same opinion my father-in-law (avid Sioux fan, GF resident, and booster) has, which was a little suprising to me. When REA first opened he stated something along the lines of "They're going to be protesting the name again at the opening of the Ralph. I don't see why UND just doesn't change the name back to the Flickertails. It would put an end to all these protests." (paraphrased to the best of my memory).

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

Do the Native American Tribal Leaders actually feel they are being honored by the college and professional teams nicknames and mascots? *I don't think they do but I could be wrong. *Can you post a letter where a Tribal Leader is upset that his tribe won't be honored by a nickname or mascot at a college or university?

The Kansas City Chiefs have quite a few protests at Arrowhead Stadium and their name was actually in reference to the Mayor of Kansas City that helped bring the team to Kansas City. *He was known as the Chief. *The symbols and imagery are now more Native American in nature but that isn't why they are the Chiefs.

I do not have access to one at this time, but no doubt they will be available in the near future. That is part of why I think setting up programs would really help. Why not help these people through knowledge of their heritage and also through money. Wouldn't that be better then just not allowing their name to be used for sports teams?

Like I've said, I'm not totally for the names. I just think that there are better things to do with the time and money being put into it. I would expect that if the NCAA offered tribes either choice (programs and money or the stripping of the team names) the tribes would choose the programs. If not that is fine too. Some people are just so stuck with it being either have the names or not have the names that they are not open to other possibilities, which could be the best for everyone. Having these programs would really help the relationships between tribes and schools, which in my eyes is a win-win.

That is too bad about the Chiefs. It would be great if they just had a pic of the mayor on their helmets instead.

[JBB]

The Tribal Leaders have by a huge majority spoken out against the use of the nickname. (see link above) The best you will find speaking in favor of it will be "an activist". :)

und*# markets everything in their name and doesnt pay a dime to anyone. How do they show their gratitude about making millions?

They hire an actor to lead the hockey team out when they made their big trophy run, and they offer a few classes patronizing the entire situation. Almost as good as money Im sure?

Maybe they should seek a license? Finally pay their fair share so they have a right to use the nickname?

If they dont figure it out they need a new marketing gimmick. I dont think the flickertails is it. Too bad, without that license the hockey rink up there is forever disgraced in the eyes of the NCAA.

[Herd_Mentality]

Aren't they called the "Fighting Irish"? *So they are saying Irish are Leprechauns. *I find that to pretty offensive, as I am Irish and not a Leprechaun, I just play one on TV. *UND does not have a mascot, so that must be just fine then as you only speak of the Irish mascot. *Come on!

UND had a mascot, and it offended everybody.

[Bisonguy]

Looks like this could be even bigger than just the NCAA-

Div. I-A football takes up mascot issue (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2005-08-07-bcs-mascot-issue_x.htm)


By Steve Wieberg, USA TODAY
College football's Bowl Championship Series will weigh in next month on whether to adopt new NCAA restrictions on schools' use of American Indian mascots and imagery.
Big 12 Conference Commissioner and BCS coordinator Kevin Weiberg said the commissioners of all 11 major football-playing conferences and Notre Dame athletics director Kevin White would "review" the issue during BCS meetings Sept. 19-20 in Chicago.

"It seems to me this is a question for all of the bowl games, not just those that are part of the BCS," Weiberg told USA TODAY via e-mail during the weekend. (Related item: NCAA bans Indian mascots during postseason)

The NCAA forced the issue Friday, culminating four years of its own debate. The association's top-level Executive Committee barred schools from using Indian nicknames, mascots or logos deemed "hostile and abusive" at any of its championships. That covers all but Division I-A football, where the 28-bowl postseason — including a BCS-staged, No. 1-vs.-2 game for the national title — is largely run by the commissioners...................

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

Having the BCS accept it would certainly jolt FSU's fight.

Many people are talking about, if they were forced to change the name, what the new name would be. Many have suggested going with no nickname, just North Dakota.

I know many of you would be in favor of Flickertails, but what do you think of going with no name? Would probably be all right, I can't think of any other school that does this.

[IowaBison]

I still like the idea of UND becoming the Reds with their mascot being a giant potato.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

I still like the idea of UND becoming the Reds with their mascot being a giant potato.

I'm sure people would be offended, thinking it was a play to the indian people. Just like someone had suggested raging reds. Meant to be the river, but also seen as a play on the indian names.

[JBB]

North Dakota is used a lot now instead of the Sioux. That would be a good change.

In the old days even though the NDSU team had a nickname it was never mentioned at all, always "The AC".

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

North Dakota is used a lot now instead of the Sioux. *That would be a good change. *

In the old days even though the NDSU team had a nickname it was never mentioned at all, always "The AC".

Can you think of any teams that don't use a nickname now? I can't think of any. Wouldn't be a bad change though, probably better then some generic new name.

[kchats]

I think you need a nickname. If you don't have one everyone would think you were wearing a sweatshirt or T-shirt for the State of North Dakota and not the University of North Dakota.

I really think it should be the University of North Dakota Mosquitos. You could have a great mascot and when people think about North Dakota they think about mosquitos.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

I think you need a nickname. *If you don't have one everyone would think you were wearing a sweatshirt or T-shirt for the State of North Dakota and not the University of North Dakota.

I really think it should be the University of North Dakota Mosquitos. *You could have a great mascot and when people think about North Dakota they think about mosquitos.

You could still sell University of North Dakota stuff though.

I don't know about mosquitos. Hate them so bad, that don't really want to even think about them. By the way, how are they this summer? Bugs aren't bad here at all. That's weird that they wouldn't be bad here. Going to Bemidji this weekend so I'm sure I'll get my taste of them!

[Green-N-Gold]

Just don't do something stupid like the Syracuse "Orange."

[Bisonguy]

You could still sell University of North Dakota stuff though.

I don't know about mosquitos. *Hate them so bad, that don't really want to even think about them. *By the way, how are they this summer? *Bugs aren't bad here at all. *That's weird that they wouldn't be bad here. *Going to Bemidji this weekend so I'm sure I'll get my taste of them!

It's been too dry in the FM area lately for mosquitos to be at their normal numbers. Don't know about Bemidji, though.

[kchats]

They were terrible when I was in North Dakota in June. Couldn't even be outside without being carried off. My son had welts everywhere and we sprayed him with every bug repellent we could find.

[coloradobison]

No mosquitos down here ;D

[Bisonguy]

They were terrible when I was in North Dakota in June. *Couldn't even be outside without being carried off. *My son had welts everywhere and we sprayed him with every bug repellent we could find.

The early part of summer had a lot of rain and mosquito habitat. I believe it's only rained a couple times in the last month.

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

It doesnt matter, UND (not und*#) was established by the Irish so they can call it anything they want. *The same test applies to other universities. *You are exempt if you were founded as part of the group your nickname represents. *Unfortunately not the case for und*#.


Just wanted to make sure that I correct you before you take your argument to other people and end up looking like a fool...

"Notre Dame’s founding can perhaps best be characterized as an outburst of missionary zeal. How else can one describe the action of Father Edward Sorin, the 28-year-old French priest of the Congregation of Holy Cross who, with $310 cash and three log buildings in various stages of disrepair in the middle of the northern Indiana frontier, had the temerity to christen his enterprise the University of Notre Dame du Lac?"

- http://und.collegesports.com/school-bio/nd-school-bio.html


Looks like your argument just went up in flames!

[GCWaters]

Just wanted to make sure that I correct you before you take your argument to other people and end up looking like a fool...

"Notre Dame’s founding can perhaps best be characterized as an outburst of missionary zeal. How else can one describe the action of Father Edward Sorin, the 28-year-old French priest of the Congregation of Holy Cross who, with $310 cash and three log buildings in various stages of disrepair in the middle of the northern Indiana frontier, had the temerity to christen his enterprise the University of Notre Dame du Lac?"

- http://und.collegesports.com/school-bio/nd-school-bio.html


Looks like your argument just went up in flames!


I made the same mistake earlier--Catholic ties to N.Dame, but apparantly not Irish Catholic...

[JBB]

What is so typical about this is the "you do it so why cant we" mentality. *What do the Fighting Irish have to do with the problems of the 18 universities now under pressure to change their identities? *No one has deemed their nickname hostile and abusive. *

My suggestion would be to get up a huge group of irish catholics, or people that sympathise with them, and start hounding the real UND to change their nickname. *

After 10-20 yrs of stubbornly making fools of themselves and refusing to have empathy, rewriting the origins of the nickname to include paragraphs about how they are honoring the irish culture, creating some classes about the Irish, *maybe they will have to change too?

Be careful though, you will have to endure endless abuse from them, name calling and such, but it will be worth it dont you think?

;)

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

I guess you are changing your argument now huh ::)

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

No one has deemed their nickname hostile and abusive. *


You sure about that? Why then are there so many articles that bring this up as a response to the NCAA's decision? Why was there a letter to the editor of your own Fargo Forum today about Notre Dame? I guess someone has deemed it hostile and/or abusive.

[JBB]

No, the principal I stated is precedent and makes the childish tactic of “they are doing it too” unfounded. * The post was meant to poke a little ironic fun. *Hope I didnt ruffle your feathers too much? * :)

Ps. by no one, I meant people that count. The shouting masses have no account on this issue. Refer to earlier post for advice on getting the real UND to change their name! ;)

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

No, the principal I stated is precedent and makes the childish tactic of “they are doing it too” unfounded. * The post was meant to poke a little ironic fun. *Hope I didnt ruffle your feathers too much? * :)

Ps. *by no one, I meant people that count. *The shouting masses have no account on this issue. *Refer to earlier post for advice on getting the real UND to change their name! *;)

I'm pretty sure that the "shouting masses" were the ones who got the NCAA to make this decision. I'm sure that the NCAA didn't just sit down and say, "hey, you know what, those native american names are offensive."

When people began fighting the use of the Sioux name it began just like it has now for the use of the ND name. I just don't see how you can sit there and argue that one should go while the other shouldn't? Both names are from the French language. Both names were adopted by the school's teams. Both schools have people attending their school who are part of the group of people the teams are named after. So without your "founded by" argument, where do you go?

I guess what I really want to know from you is this:

Why is it ok to use one group of people as a nickname, but not another?

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

and just so you know...

letter to the editor by Larry Stammen of the UND Alumni Association which was printed in the Feb. 18, 1999, Grand Forks Herald.


QUOTE
I think everyone will be interested to learn that the name Sioux,which some American Indian students have claimed is derogatory in its origin and means snake, is a tribal name only. It actually means speaker of a foreign language, and its usage in the English language has never been taken as insulting.

The source of my information is Ives Goddard, curator and head of the ethnology division in the Department of Anthropology at the National Museum of Natural History, which is part of the Smithsonian Institution. Goddard is a specialist in Algonquian languages. He is the linguistics editor and technical editor of the Handbook of North American Indians.

The name Sioux has been rejected by some because it allegedly means `snake,' Goddard writes. In the first place, Sioux is meaningless in any Indian language since it is a French shortening of earlier Nadouessioux. This is a Gallicization, with the substitution of the French plural -x for the Ojibwa plural -ak, or an earlier Nadouessiouak, a direct borrowing from Ojibwa na-towe-ssiwak. This Ojibwa word (specifically from the Ottawa dialect) is only used as a tribal name, never as a word for snake, but it is derived from another ethnonym, na-towe, `speak a foreign language.' By the most likely analysis, the Proto-Algonquian word na-towe-wa would mean etmologically, `speaker of a foreign language.'

John Koontz, a linguist and leading authority on Siouan Languages at the University of Colorado, confirms Goddard's conclusions. Nadouessioux and similar French spellings representing Ojibwa Nadouessiouak are the source of the word Sioux as an English term for the various Dakota people and embodies no insulting implication. As far as I know, there is no trace of the terms Sioux or Nadouessioux being taken as insulting in either French or English usage, ever.

[tony]

Hehhehe, now your hittting me where I live with the Notre Dame thing.

I guess if the Houses of the Oireachtas or the Prime Minister of Ireland ever come out against Notre Dame using the nickname the Fighting Irish, then Notre Dame would have a situation similar to the University of North Dakota... wait a second, it would be somewhat similiar, but even then, it would not quite be the same.

Notre Dame, while founded by French Catholics, had a student body of predominantly Irish kids. Notre Dame's name reflects their heritage, UND's nickname does not. Just look at the list Notre Dame's Presidents: Sorin, Dillon, Corby, Colovin, Lemonnier, T. E. Walsh, Morrissey, J.W. Cavanaugh, Burns, M. J. Walsh, O'Donnel, O'Hara, J.J Cavanaugh, Hesburgh, and Malloy. Almost all of those are Irish names - and, with the exception of Sorin, I'm guessing even the ones without Irish surnames have Irish names in their family tree.

The Irish parliament has the best claim for speaking for the Irish people. The Sioux tribal councils have the best claim for speaking for the Sioux people. The Sioux tribal councils have spoken; the Irish parliament (Houses of the Oireachtas) has not.

Come on Sioux_Yeah_Yeah, are you telling me that you can't see any difference between Irish kids at Notre Dame calling themselves the Fighting Irish (with no objection from the Irish government) and white kids calling themselves Fighting Sioux (with a whole lot of objections of the Sioux government)?

[GCWaters]

You sure about that? Why then are there so many articles that bring this up as a response to the NCAA's decision? Why was there a letter to the editor of your own Fargo Forum today about Notre Dame? I guess someone has deemed it hostile and/or abusive.



The ONLY people complaining about the Irish, Cajuns, Vikings, etc., are people who want to use the argument to justify the use of Native American names...I have yet to see a protest by the Irish, Norwegians, or Louisiana natives complaining, nor do I think I will...

[JBB]

I guess what I really want to know from you is this:

Why is it ok to use one group of people as a nickname, but not another?

Read Tonys post.

I also disagree about the shouting masses. They may have echoed what was happening or foretold what would happen with their out cry, but they didnt change anything. SYY, your part of the shouting masses, the Tribal Chiefs that have formalized their opinion on behalf of their people are not. And neither are the lawyers that make all of this possible.

It seems funny, or maybe its just ironic, that a school turning out lawyers has now become a victim of their own product!

[teamsioux]

The ONLY people complaining about the Irish, Cajuns, Vikings, etc., are people who want to use the argument to justify the use of Native American names...I have yet to see a protest by the Irish, Norwegians, or Louisiana natives complaining, nor do I think I will...



Exactly. You probably never will. These groups don't feel they have a "right to be offended" as the Indians do. According to them, they are always getting screwed by society in some form.

[SDbison]

The way I see this whole thing is...........
1. Some Bison fans on this site want to see UND squirm over this issue and "pay the price" by having to change their team name. A lot of UND's tradition is built around their mascot and regardless of which side you are on the transition to some new name would at best be an uneasy one. For arguments sake what if NDSU had to remove the Bison (go along with me here, i.e. Colorado says it has sole rights to the Buffalo image) would this not be debated and painfully considered?

2. This issue is being brought up by a relatively small group of people who want to have the feeling of power over others. Maybe even revenge is a motivation. The Indians (sorry PC folks but I don't buy into the Native American rename) need to take a close look at their REAL problems on and off the reservation, not the issue of a mascot. The problem is lawyers and liberal propaganda have assisted to bloat this truly meaningless issue into some sort of civil rights violation.

3. On principle I disagree with the tactics used used to implement the name changes and if it is really enforced I hope the NCAA as an organization loses its stranglehold on college sports. The NCAA needs to focus on sports, not trying to social engineer the universities it oversees. Hopefully the apathetic masses will see the NCAA is overstepping its authority in this matter and let them know.

NOTE: Sorry Tony, just had to state my opinion which may not sit well with some. I am sick of seeing frivolous things like this dumped on the American people. We have much bigger things to worry about.

[GCWaters]

The way I see this whole thing is...........
1. Some Bison fans on this site want to see UND squirm over this issue and "pay the price" by having to change their team name. A lot of UND's tradition is built around their mascot and regardless of which side you are on the transition to some new name would at best be an uneasy one. For arguments sake what if NDSU had to remove the Bison (go along with me here, i.e. Colorado says it has sole rights to the Buffalo image) would this not be debated and painfully considered?

2. This issue is being brought up by a relatively small group of people who want to have the feeling of power over others. Maybe even revenge is a motivation. The Indians (sorry PC folks but I don't buy into the Native American rename) need to take a close look at their REAL problems on and off the reservation, not the issue of a mascot. The problem is lawyers and liberal propaganda have assisted to bloat this truly meaningless issue into some sort of civil rights violation.

3. On principle I disagree with the tactics used used to implement the name changes and if it is really enforced I hope the NCAA as an organization loses its stranglehold on college sports. The NCAA needs to focus on sports, not trying to social engineer the universities it oversees. Hopefully the apathetic masses will see the NCAA is overstepping its authority in this matter and let them know.

NOTE: Sorry Tony, just had to state my opinion which may not sit well with some. I am sick of seeing frivolous things like this dumped on the American people. We have much bigger things to worry about.

Agree to some extent on some parts of your points (certainly not all), BUT: the NCAA doesn't just oversee its members, it IS its members--the executive committee, which made this decision, is made up of presidents and provosts, right? This isn't someone from outside imposing a decision on college athletics, this is college athletics imposing a decision...

[SDbison]

Exactly GC. Even so, these presidents of the universities, etc., are often social elitists that don't represent the populace. They know better even if a majority of the public disagrees. Somehow they think by taking on some of these special issues that they are saving us from ourselves, when in reality they are making more dissent than relieving it.

[GCWaters]

Exactly GC. Even so, these presidents of the universities, etc., are often social elitists that don't represent the populace. They know better even if a majority of the public disagrees. Somehow they think by taking on some of these special issues that they are saving us from ourselves, when in reality they are making more dissent than relieving it.


SOmetimes--I've certainly met university presidents who meet that description...whether that's true or not, though, they are paid to make decisions for the university and, by extension, for the NCAA...

[kchats]

I don't think the NCAA would be doing anything unless they were receiving a large number of complaints from the Native Americans and others regarding this issue. I'm sure they get tons of letters complaining about it.

[tony]

SDBison, you don't have to apologize for having an opinion. If a Bison fan brings up the nickname issue just to twist some UND panties, that is definitely not helpful.

Anyway, no Bison fan can say anything about UND until he or she stops with the "Sioux Suck" stuff and anything else like that. Believe me, just as many Sioux (probably more) are upset about that as are with UND using their name. If you demand that UND must respect the Sioux's wishes in one matter, you can't honestly ignore their request in this other matter. I mean, it's easy for me to tell other people how to act, but it's a whole lot harder (but better for the soul) to change the way I act.

Anyway, I only chimed on in this thread because that Fighting Irish analogy was so lame.

[Bison_Dan]

The way I see this whole thing is...........
1. *Some Bison fans on this site want to see UND squirm over this issue and "pay the price" by having to change their team name. *A lot of UND's tradition is built around their mascot and regardless of which side you are on the transition to some new name would at best be an uneasy one. *For arguments sake what if NDSU had to remove the Bison *(go along with me here, i.e. Colorado says it has sole rights to the Buffalo image) would this not be debated and painfully considered?

2. *This issue is being brought up by a relatively small group of people who want to have the feeling of power over others. *Maybe even revenge is a motivation. *The Indians (sorry PC folks but I don't buy into the Native American rename) need to take a close look at their REAL problems on and off the reservation, not the issue of a mascot. *The problem is lawyers and liberal propaganda have assisted to bloat this truly meaningless issue into some sort of civil rights *violation. *
*
3. *On principle I disagree with the tactics used used to implement the name changes and if it is really enforced I hope the NCAA as an organization loses its stranglehold on college sports. *The NCAA needs to focus on sports, not trying to social engineer the universities it oversees. *Hopefully the apathetic masses will see the NCAA is overstepping its authority in this matter and let them know. *

NOTE: *Sorry Tony, just had to state my opinion which may not sit well with some. *I am sick of seeing frivolous things like this dumped on the American people. *We have much bigger things to worry about. * * * * *

I agree with you - especially the first part of *#1. *If und fans wouldn't have had their nose in the air about the rea and weren't such a**wholes about NDSU's move to DI I'd be on their side 100%, but now I like to see them squirm!! * ;D ;D

[JBB]

I have no opinion on the matter. * This issue is a reality of life like many others including affirmative action. But the Sioux nations who have specifically requested they drop the name, the general offense and outrage expressed by significant segments of society and pressure from the NCAA should be enough signs for them. *

The emotional and very often juvenile responses by their supporters is also degrading to their image. *You do it so I can too is hardly a mature and well though out position, about as good as liberal PC jerks want to control everything or even this is a free country. *

The fact their position is bought and paid for doesnt help them either. *Rewriting history to make the nickname use seem to have more honorable origins doesnt work either.

Whats wrong with the leadership up there:

1) *Fargo Campus cost $ and reputation
2) *On line pharmacy cost $ and reputation
3) *Naming issue cost $ and reputation

thats just in the past year!

People and institutions are not free to do as they please in this country. *Behavior is controlled by social standards reflected in our laws and policies. * I see these same types of emotional responses against Zoning regulations. *People and institutions are bound by rules, policy and law. you cant yell fire in a crowded theater. Apparently, in the NCAA, you cant use nicknames that outrage those it marginalize. *

[Sioux_Yeah_Yeah]

Looking at this now from a different direction, trying to see what the PCers out there see, answer me this.

How will the extinction of Indian names in athletics help these people?

Many people say they don't want UND to use it and on and on. One Sioux tribe actually gave UND its blessing. Which is another argument, isn't one tribe allowing UND to use its name (which comes from the French language) enough?

[JBB]

No, in the eyes of the NCAA its in poor taste and the name is out for champmionship events. *that is, despite the whining. Its no surprise and the other foot could fall if there is no compliance. *

Maybe a license with a tribe that can lay claim to the image, with resulting payments to the image owner related to the proceeds generated by the image use would help, but apparently a buddy buddy agreement without any payment doesnt work for und*#

[JBB]

Right now would be a good time for the university to act with class and grace in their acceptance of the ruling. It would a welcome change from the image the university has project in the recent past. One that has turned down right ugly since they got trumped by Decision I.

[imported_admin]

This would be an interesting issue for highschoolers to debate, but seeing as pretty much all we're doing is using the issue to tick off the nickname-loving folks at UND, I'm going to lock this topic down.

Seriously, they should debate this in HS and have people from both sides of the issue watch the debate - we all would probably learn something about critical thinking.

[THEsocalledfan]

I've had an interesting journey on this. I went from hating the NCAA (well, that has not changed), to being mad at UN_ for dragging this mess out when they clearly agreed to retire the nickname even if I disagreed, to finding it comical that fans who are clinging to the name were destroying their own university.

Now, I had a deep thought today. Is it possible that those clinging to the nickname could keep a cult following going that Sioux is the name and "Hawks" is just a ruse to keep the NCAA off their back? My point being, they could just keep booing the name every time they here it, put it at the end of the national anthem, etc. It could kind of take up a life of its own.

Just wondering if I am just nuts or not.

[BisonNation11]

I've had an interesting journey on this. I went from hating the NCAA (well, that has not changed), to being mad at UN_ for dragging this mess out when they clearly agreed to retire the nickname even if I disagreed, to finding it comical that fans who are clinging to the name were destroying their own university.

Now, I had a deep thought today. Is it possible that those clinging to the nickname could keep a cult following going that Sioux is the name and "Hawks" is just a ruse to keep the NCAA off their back? My point being, they could just keep booing the name every time they here it, put it at the end of the national anthem, etc. It could kind of take up a life of its own.

Just wondering if I am just nuts or not.

To me, this would be the saddest, face palm move ever. If you want to honor your history, fine, that's one thing. To keep trying to live in the past is just sad. So sad. And to boo your own university that you're there to "support". These people having some serious growing up to do.

[Bison bison]

A boy's best friend is his mother.

[bisonaudit]

I've had an interesting journey on this. I went from hating the NCAA (well, that has not changed), to being mad at UN_ for dragging this mess out when they clearly agreed to retire the nickname even if I disagreed, to finding it comical that fans who are clinging to the name were destroying their own university.

Now, I had a deep thought today. Is it possible that those clinging to the nickname could keep a cult following going that Sioux is the name and "Hawks" is just a ruse to keep the NCAA off their back? My point being, they could just keep booing the name every time they here it, put it at the end of the national anthem, etc. It could kind of take up a life of its own.

Just wondering if I am just nuts or not.

You're not nuts.

http://www.bndflagpoles.com/750_500_csupload_42887081.png?u%201747286463

[THEsocalledfan]

You're not nuts.

http://www.bndflagpoles.com/750_500_csupload_42887081.png?u%201747286463

Not a perfect analogy, but pretty darn good.

[THEsocalledfan]

To me, this would be the saddest, face palm move ever. If you want to honor your history, fine, that's one thing. To keep trying to live in the past is just sad. So sad. And to boo your own university that you're there to "support". These people having some serious growing up to do.

They would be booing the name to let people know "that is not the real name," not against the University. If it went on long enough, they would just quit saying the name over speakers, etc as all it does is cause boos. Folks would need to keep this up about 5 years to really get entrenched. It would probably also cause merchandise sales to suffer; you could certainly get Chinese companies to produce knew Fighting Wioux ware.

[bisonaudit]

Not a perfect analogy, but pretty darn good.

Analogies are rarely perfect.

[THEsocalledfan]

Analogies are rarely perfect.

Agreed.........

[Bison 4 Life]

Not a perfect analogy, but pretty darn good.

by and large, college kids are lazy. Give it a couple of classes and a cool logo and it will go the way of the Marquette Warriors.