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View Full Version : Schedule UND or not: pros and cons



tony
08-22-2005, 01:58 PM
I would like to compile a list of pros and cons about scheduling UND for football. I welcome your comments as well.

Pros
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1. Good gate, guaranted sell out.

2. It might help season ticket sales.

3. Restores one of college athletics oldest rivalries.

4. If we are going to play a DII school every year, it might as well be UND.

Cons
------

1. NDSU fans haven't covered themselves in glory by their behavior at the UND game. Give the bad feelings a chance to simmer down. I don't care what UND fans did - they aren't my problem.

2. NDSU needs time to establish rivalries in DI, especially with SDSU. Leave off scheduling UND until new rivalries are given a chance to develop.

3. It's better to strive for new rivalries built on mutual respect rather than continue an old one with a school that has shown NDSU nothing but ill-will and contempt.

4. NDSU has a lot to lose from playing UND - much more than UND ever had to lose from playing NDSU. No matter how good UND is, DI-AA playoff selection folks aren't going to be impressed with a win over them. DI-AA doesn't have 20-team playoff fields and NDSU doesn't have an autobid to get in.

5. To impress DI-AA playoff selection folks, NDSU has to play as many of the best DI-AA programs as possible. Playing UND takes away one slot a year for getting that done.

One thing is certain: The offer for a home and home series is off the table. NDSU would be assuming the greatest amount of risk; NDSU should get the greatest reward. I figure that there are three possible ways of having this work. One, have two games at NDSU followed by one at UND with no guarantees paid by either team. Two, have two games at NDSU followed by one at a neutral site, splitting the proceeds of the third game. Three, have all three games at NDSU, but NDSU pays a generous guarantee for each. However, given UND's past behavior, any three-game contract would have to include a hefty penalty for breaking off the series.

And, of course, we have to take Coach Bohl's preference into account. We gave him a 2-8 team and told him we wanted to be playoff ready in five years. We should not force him into doing anything that he doesn't think is in line with that goal.

Bison_Dan
08-22-2005, 02:53 PM
All good points Tony -

On the con:

1. We can get a good gate with most teams.
2. I doubt it.
3. I don't care about it.
4. We need to try to play all D1-AA teams

It's und that needs us. When was the last time they had the gate that we brought. Look at their schudules in fb, bb, etc. there's nothing for the fans to get excited about. They had 8,200 at their one playoff game last year. Even their own fans are compaining about the quality of teams in their bb schedule. They blew us off last year, so good bye.

JBB
08-22-2005, 04:31 PM
CONS:

It divides North Dakota sports fans into two camps doing as much harm to each school as good.

The game will not provide NDSU with any exposure it doesn’t already enjoy.

There is no real financial incentive. We average 13,500 without them on the schedule. Any contribution that game might make to the bottom line has to be put into the context of the entire season. Its delusional to assume you can look at last yrs schedule, take out one of the poorer attended games and add a sell out.

They are in the wrong division.

They are unreliable in their contractual relationships and have not been good neighbors or good associates.

As a Fargo BISON fan I would not be happy to have some of my season ticket money going to them. I want the money to go to somebody else, anybody! The backlash against them may actually cost us season ticket money.

PROS.

Leave it up to Coach Bohl. After their rejection (and the und/usd led NCC rejection of NDSU and SDSU) Coach Bohl said it was their decision, we would be fine and they would probably be back in the future. Maybe he is anticipating a game. I hope not.

Bison_Pride_99
08-22-2005, 04:39 PM
Pros:

1) The casual fans want the game- see forum poll
2) The student population loves this game- a given
3) The student atheltes want to play the game-just my guess
4) Guaranteed sellouts in FB, WBB, MBB with little travel expence means a needed boost to our bottom line.
5) We'll get the Nickle Trophy home.

I was pissed at UND when they didn't want to play us last year and I will be almost as upset if SU turns down UND because they are to stubborn to forgive.

mikelsch
08-22-2005, 04:43 PM
Higher division schools DO NOT play at lower division schools EVER. If NDSU/UND play again in any sport, the games must be in Fargo. Also, UND is entitled to the same guarantee that any other DII school would receive.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 04:46 PM
Higher division schools DO NOT play at lower division schools EVER.*

I must have been seeing things when I was at a sold out REA for a Kansas Jayhawks @ UND basketball game.

mikelsch
08-22-2005, 04:51 PM
Only DI basketball game you will see there. Big dog threw you some token table scraps.

Bison_Dan
08-22-2005, 04:52 PM
I must have been seeing things when I was at a sold out REA for a Kansas Jayhawks @ UND basketball game.

Now you can come to the BSA to see DI teams!!

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 05:05 PM
Only DI basketball game you will see there. *Big dog threw you some token table scraps.

Yeah, just wanted to make sure that you realized that "EVER" was just wrong. *Actually, it happens every once in a while.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 05:06 PM
Now you can come to the BSA to see DI teams!!


Thanks for pointing that out. Wasn't saying anything negative about NDSU, just pointing out that higher division schools DO play at lower division schools.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 05:15 PM
But back to the topic at hand. I think that a game would be good for both sides. This whole ordeal has been handled poorly by both sides. Bringing the rivalry back to the field could hopefully help clean up the garbage that is being tossed by both sides off the field.

I don't think that it would split the state any more then the state is split right now. If you are a UND fan, you are going to cheer for the Sioux, if you are a Bison fan you are going to cheer for the Bison. I don't think there are many people in this state that would say "dang, now I need to choose a team because they are playing each other."

I just look for the build and excitement that the state as a whole saw for Sioux-Bison week.

I don't like the thought of it being in Minny as that would make it less fans for each side to see. It should be a showcase for the state of North Dakota and held in North Dakota. If it were to be held at NDSU each year, then UND would need to get a large gaurantee of ticket availability for Sioux fans and probably a decent sized gaurantee for the game. I don't think NDSU should be expected to pay out huge money for it, just make it worth it for UND to play at NDSU each year, rather then a home sell out.

87Bisonfan
08-22-2005, 05:32 PM
If NDSU ever does play UND in football, remember that UND still owes NDSU a game in Fargo. Therefore, there should be no guarantee for the first game, UND got their $27.50 last time we played.

Bison_Dan
08-22-2005, 05:38 PM
But back to the topic at hand. *I think that a game would be good for both sides. *This whole ordeal has been handled poorly by both sides. *Bringing the rivalry back to the field could hopefully help clean up the garbage that is being tossed by both sides off the field.



Both sides? Seems to me you're forgetting alot of the bs that und threw at NDSU when we wanted to continue the rivalry. Please explain to me NDSU's poor handling of the topic?

JBB
08-22-2005, 05:57 PM
I agree. This was not handled poorly by NDSU. *

NDSU kept the conference fully informed and even delayed our plans to give the conference and extra year to adjust.

The arogance in the statement that it was handled poorly by both sides is enough to tell me that und and its fans are not ready yet.

Let Kuppy show how things have changed. *Let him go to the state legeslature as a friend and supporter of NDSU instead of an enemy. *Let him retract his statement that he hates everything about NDSU (not a good signal for us if we are planning to enter into contracts with you). *

Let more time pass. *NDSU doesnt even know yet how our BB teams will do with the DI schools coming in. *We dont know how well our football will draw. *We feel good about it, but certainly we dont need a desperation game like the one being suggested.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 06:23 PM
Both sides have gone to the press with their sides, whining about the other school. You can't sit there and say that NDSU has done everything right and UND everything wrong. That would be ignorant. I do not think that UND has done everything right and NDSU wrong, both sides have had their dark moments. It's time to clean it up and get the rivalry going on the field rather then in the papers, if both sides can benefit from it. If the NDSU administation really though that the renewal of the rivalry would hurt them then giving good, solid reasoning would be helpful. Rather then saying, they hurt us, so we are taking our ball and going home.

I think this whole thing would be laughable if you didn't have any stake in it. A bunch of he said/she said crap. Get the game going, UND @ NDSU for the next 3 seasons. UND gets no $ gaurantee for the first game, only a ticket gaurantee. NDSU pays a decent sized gaurantee for second game. NDSU pays smaller gaurantee for third game. Winner takes Nickel Trophy. Play it out on the field. Would be a lot of fun to come back to ND for, or to watch via satellite from elsewhere!

WYOBISONMAN
08-22-2005, 06:48 PM
I am in favor of playing the Sioux on NDSU's terms. In no way has NDSU mistreated UND. It was UND shooting all the daggers when NDSU wanted and needed the rivalry to continue. The bottom line is now NDSU does not in any way need the UND game.

JBB
08-22-2005, 06:50 PM
I disagree. I can say with confidence that NDSU did everything right. Please list the NDSU "dark moments" as you put it. und2*# has never taken this well, as individual fans or as a community. It has been very unbecoming, but certainly typical when measured in the light of the on-line pharmacy, Fargo Campus and the way your sports administration behaved the last time we traveled to grand forks.

NDSU has no obligation to play. We dont even have any obligation to say one way or another why or why not. It is our schedule you want to get on, after all.

To insist that its child like or otherwise vindictive for NDSU not to play is just another sign that und and its fans are not ready. Trying to dictate the terms of this game you want so badly is another sign you are not ready.

Let the university spend several years showing us how they have changed. When there is a good track record of contructive behavior on your part in our association then let NDSU take seriously your desire to play us in sports. Until then no thank you.

As bad as you want it you dont deserve the spotlight that a game with NDSU would provide.

tony
08-22-2005, 06:53 PM
Sioux_yeah_yeah makes sense.

However, just for the sake of argument, try to see things how Gene Taylor viewed them. Mr. Buning went to the press with his desire to renew the rivalry before talking to NDSU about it. Why wouldn't Taylor view this as some sort of PR thing dreamed up by UND to attempt, yet again, to make NDSU look bad?

For all Taylor knows, this is the first part of a bid to convince the legislature to force NDSU to play UND on UND's terms. That is exactly how UND has operated in the past and, so far, there is no reason to think things are any different now. However, I think Mr. Buning is going to turn out to be a stand-up guy.

The only thing that will convince me that this isn't a ploy is some sort of public apology. Since that's probably not going to happen, the rivalry will probably have to get put on hold until Kupchella leaves and UND's new president shows some signs of not being an complete ass.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 06:59 PM
Tony, I agree.

I hope that there is more talk going on behind the scenes then what we see in the papers. I don't think you'll ever see a public apology from anyone. I think that the media is being used to much to try persuade people to see from their side. I wish one paper or media outlet would just take an outside look at it, see what needs to be done, don't bash either one of the schools in the process and hopefully get everyone to move on. It just seems that every article bashes one shool or the other on each issue. Let's build them both up and get a game that would showcase the game. Who knows, it would maybe get some votes for game of the week and be televised by somone other then WDAZ/WDAY. Now that would be great!

JBB
08-22-2005, 07:09 PM
Its nice to be nice, but I disagree that syy makes sense. You make sense Tony. He is just spouting the party line.

Because they want to play us in sports we have a problem? I would say they have the problem and if it takes an act of congress for them to get their game they should get busy. Heaven forbid they should call us.

Let them demonstrate good will by their actions, including an apology would be nice. In several years we can revisit the issue.

(Can you imagine the uproar from them if NDSU had gone to the legeslature to force the game when their position was no games out of division and they returned our contracts?)

Herd_Mentality
08-22-2005, 07:36 PM
I believe the ONLY thing that NDSU has done wrong was finally standing up for itself...after not doing so for so many years.

Bison_Dan
08-22-2005, 07:43 PM
I still haven't heard from yea yea what was done or said by NDSU. Bison fans have a couple pages of "quotes" by sue coaches, president, assoc. president, etc. In hearing Gene Taylor on Hot Talk it sounded like he was disappointed that the sue AD when public with this. tb is learning fast isn't he!

kchats
08-22-2005, 07:46 PM
The only reason to play UND would be to help them out by giving them a financial reward and exposure of playing a division I school. When we made the move to division I UND said we already have a division I budget because of our hockey team and adding a little to that pot wouldn't take much. Why do we need to help them out then? The game means nothing to either school since we aren't even in the same division so it is a waste of time for the Bison. I think our football team needs to start playing division I-A teams in place of the division II teams on the schedule, where we get paid instead of paying someone. As for basketball we have Moorhead State a local division II school that is strapped for cash that needs our help much more than UND.

UND killed the rivalry by refusing to play NDSU last season in the transition year. NDSU isn't having difficulty scheduling anymore so we don't need them.

I stand by my position that we play UND only after they move up to division I and after they have completed the transition year.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 07:57 PM
Dan, You don’t think the NDSU people went straight to the media as soon as UND would not play them to try to get public opinion on their side? *How about the mess in the state legislature that went both ways. There have been instances on both sides of childish behavior.

At first UND wanted to look like the tough guy and not play NDSU, NDSU went out and tried to get UND to look like the bad guy for ending the rivalry. *Now, NDSU wants to look like the tough guy and UND wants NDSU to look like the bad guy for ending the rivalry.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
08-22-2005, 08:06 PM
And just to make it clear, I'm probably a bit selfish to want the game back. I want it mainly because I love a good rivalry. I still have Florida Florida State to look forward to and UND UMN, but I would have to say that UND NDSU was probably my favorite. Some have implied that UND is begging NDSU to play, I think a lot of Sioux fans actually don't want to play. There is little to no talk about this on ss.com right now. I guess I liked the rivalry more then some people. Quite possible Buning just brought this up to stir conversation and get some excitement brewing for the athletic season to start.

teamsioux
08-22-2005, 09:37 PM
SYY, you are correct about the very little talk on siouxsports.com or around town/GF area in general. A very high % of the people(Sioux supporters) I talk to could care less about the rivalry renewing right now. There are some, but I see that as being a very small segment, just as it is on the Bison side wanting to play the Sioux. I believe they will play again one day, whether it is UND moving up or the NCAA jumbles classes Everyone is kinda of wondering where Bunning is coming from on this one. I believe he is talking before knowing all the facts and about the people in this region, both schools should go their own way for now. He has other things to worry about than getting everyone riled up over this right now. I really doubt that many from UND are "begging" to play NDSU.

Bison_Dan
08-22-2005, 09:42 PM
SYY, you are correct about the very little talk on siouxsports.com or around town/GF area in general. *A very high % of the people(Sioux supporters) I talk to could care less about the rivalry renewing right now. There are some, but I see that as being a very small segment, just as it is on the Bison side wanting to play the Sioux. I believe they will play again one day, whether it is UND moving up or the NCAA jumbles classes *Everyone is kinda of wondering where Bunning is coming from on this one. I believe he is talking before knowing all the facts and about the people in this region, both schools should go their own way for now. *He has other things to worry about than getting everyone riled up over this right now. I really doubt that many from UND are "begging" to play NDSU.

Then please tell your new AD to stop bugging us about playing us again!!

Bisonguy
08-22-2005, 11:01 PM
SYY, you are correct about the very little talk on siouxsports.com or around town/GF area in general. *

There seems to be too much time occupied with some sort of name issue, rather than talking about the actual athletic teams in the Grand Forks area for this topic to be on the frontburner.

kchats
08-22-2005, 11:14 PM
And just to make it clear, I'm probably a bit selfish to want the game back. *I want it mainly because I love a good rivalry. *I still have Florida Florida State to look forward to and UND UMN, but I would have to say that UND NDSU was probably my favorite. *Some have implied that UND is begging NDSU to play, I think a lot of Sioux fans actually don't want to play. *There is little to no talk about this on ss.com right now. *I guess I liked the rivalry more then some people. *Quite possible Buning just brought this up to stir conversation and get some excitement brewing for the athletic season to start.

Florida State versus Florida, Kansas State versus Kansas etc are all rivalries because their teams are in the same division. You don't here a public cry for Nebraska to schedule their other state schools (Omaha and Kearney) just to have a rivalry. NDSU vs. UND will never be a rivalry game until UND moves up to division I. As a lower division school the games mean nothing to either school as far as post-season or conference titles.

I don't really believe UND wants to play NDSU this season. I think the timing of this request for games is all about publicity since they knew the Bison had full schedules.

teamsioux
08-22-2005, 11:17 PM
Then please tell your new AD to stop bugging us about playing us again!! *



I couldn't agree more. *Like I said I don't know if he has the full story if UND fans even want the rivalry to be renewed right now.

Bisonguy
08-22-2005, 11:19 PM
Although I would enjoy a game in 2006 and 2007, the following is reason enough(at least if I was in charge of scheduling the games) for not having the game in 2008 and beyond-

From the handy, dandy,NCAA DI-AA Football Championships Handbook (http://www.ncaa.org/library/handbooks/football/2004/d1aa_football_handbook.pdf)


Championship Selection
[Reference: Bylaws 31.01.2, 31.01.3 and 31.3 in the NCAA Manual.]
At-large teams shall be selected by the Division I-AA football committee,
assisted by four regional advisory committees that serve in an advisory
capacity only.
The following principles shall apply when selecting at-large teams:
1. The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to
complete the bracket;
2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one
conference;
3. The won-lost record of a team will be scrutinized to determine a team’s strength of
schedule; however, more than three losses will place a team in jeopardy of not being
selected;
4. The committee may give more consideration to those teams that have played all
Division I opponents; and
5. If the team of a committee member is under consideration, the member may not vote for
the team being considered and will not be in the room when a vote is taken.
[See Appendix B (page 29) for a map of the geographical regions.

Come on, Gene. Schedule the game for the next two years. Pay UND a good guarantee (remember, Montana paid NDSU $75, so somewhere in the $50-75k range would be fair IMO), and then simply state that you can no longer schedule them because it would hinder NDSU's chance at the postseason. Of course, a $35-50k cancellation clause would have to be in place in the contract.

teamsioux
08-22-2005, 11:24 PM
There seems to be too much time occupied with some sort of name issue, rather than talking about the actual athletic teams in the Grand Forks area for this topic to be on the frontburner.





Once again I couldn't agree more. That's two in a row with Bison fans. ;) That is a much more important issue than worrying about the rivalry game which if they did agree to play again won't be until at least '06-07 anyway. If he (Buning) is seeing $$ signs in the game, well the nickname controversy involves alot more money than the game would generate. Between fighting the NCAA, the controversy of the logo at the hockey tourney, possible uniform changes for all playoff teams and the loss of support/$$$ if the name goes is a much bigger worry than rehashing this same old story.

DIBISON
08-23-2005, 03:44 AM
There is no more rivalry between the two schools because they are in different NCAA classifications.

undII even stated that NDSU ended the rivalry when they moved to DI.

So what is the point of discussing the scheduling of the two schools. Doesn't logic tell you that it ain't going to happen until they are both in the same NCAA division?

DG_Moore
08-29-2005, 05:29 PM
Our fence line is two miles from SD and I live closer to Brookings than Grand Forks; many of us in agriculture feel that SD State and MT State are the two premier games partly because we know alumni and researchers from those institutions.

Games with UND would be even for only a few years if UND stays at Division II. The tougher competition and increased number of scholarships in all sports for NDSU will make UND non-competitive.

We are not going to make progress and make a name for ourselves in Division I by playing in Division II any more than UND improved by playing Crookston. This would be especially troublesome in football where there is a limited number of games.