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JBB
11-28-2005, 08:09 PM
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/13265612.htm

A formal proposal to play single sports at any level has been made by a DII university president as documented above.

This is a clear signal they are not prepared to move up a Division, but it may find some support at some levels. Why would we want this to be made the rule instead of the exception?

There is already talk in hockey about moving away from this. It is unfair to those shouldering the cost of the higher division through full participation. Why allow underfunded and uncomitted programs access to benefits reserved for paying members?

If this were come to pass would NDSU move some sports down?

What types of universities might support this?

Rodentia
11-28-2005, 08:32 PM
I think this would proposal would be devastating to college athletics if passed, but I doubt it has a chance, as it would be a strong reversal of NCAA policies.

If this passed, schools would cherry-pick the most profitable and high profile sports for D-I, and would bury the rest. It's interesting that he calls this "a modest proposal". That's also the title of a satirical essay by Johnathan Swift, in which he proposes solving the problems of poverty in 18th century Ireland by eating their children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal


The author (who is not to be confused with Swift himself, but is merely a persona) argues, through economic reasoning as well as a self-righteous moral stance, for a way to turn the problem of squalor among the Catholics in Ireland into its own solution. His proposal is to fatten up the undernourished children and feed them to Ireland's rich land-owners. Children of the poor could be sold into a meat market at the age of one thus combating overpopulation and unemployment, sparing families the expense of child-rearing while providing them with a little extra income, improving the culinary experience of the wealthy, and contributing to the overall economic well-being of the nation.

He offers statistical support for his assertions and gives specific data about the number of children to be sold, their weight and price, and the projected consumption patterns. He suggests some recipes for preparing this delicious new meat, and he feels sure that innovative cooks will be quick to generate more. He also anticipates that the practice of selling and eating children will have positive effects on family morality: husbands will treat their wives with more respect, and parents will value their children in ways hitherto unknown. His conclusion is that the implementation of this project will do more to solve Ireland's complex social, political, and economic problems than any other measure that has been proposed.

This is widely believed to be the greatest example of sustained irony in the history of the English language.

Bisonguy
11-28-2005, 09:12 PM
I doubt this has any chande to pass, but I can see the Title IX lawsuits piling up if this passes......

MinotBison
11-28-2005, 09:14 PM
Then again, what other kind of proposal would you expect from them?

Bisonguy
11-28-2005, 09:52 PM
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/13265612.htm

A formal proposal to play single sports at any level has been made by a DII university president as documented above. *

This is a clear signal they are *not prepared to move up a Division, but it may find some support at some levels. *Why would we want this to be made the rule instead of the exception?

I don't know of any Bison fans that would want this to be the rule.




There is already talk in hockey about moving away from this. *It is unfair to those shouldering the cost of the higher division through full participation. * Why allow underfunded and uncomitted programs access to benefits reserved for paying members?

Good point. That's why there's the *Trophy Eligible Only teams in some DI sports.




If this were come to pass would NDSU move some sports down?


No. NDSU wants their athletics to compete at the highest level that can be afforded, which is DI and DI-AA in football



What types of universities might support this?

Schools that have a decent amount of pressure to move to DI, but cannot afford the costs associated with it. UND and possibly a couple other schools are probably the only ones that support such a move.

Remember, this would have to be DI legislation, and so far DI has been strongly opposed to this concept when it was brought up by Roger Thomas.

TransAmBison
11-28-2005, 10:24 PM
I'm sure the ncaa will bend over backwards to please a few small minded schools.

Tatanka
11-29-2005, 12:34 AM
::)

bisongold
11-29-2005, 01:00 AM
Especially when the NCAA can't be happy about the Sioux nickname possible lawsuit. Good luck Kuppy.

TransAmBison
11-29-2005, 01:30 AM
kupp has a way with words, doesn't he? he could charm the....ummm...errr....I'll get back to you on that one.

roadwarrior
11-29-2005, 02:36 AM
First it was "we aren't going to follow your rules regarding nicknames", now he proposes "pick a division" for each sport. How much credibility do you suppose he is gathering at the executive level in the NCAA?

Bisonguy
11-29-2005, 02:43 AM
I think it's a red herring being thrown to the new AD and the those that are pushing the move (i.e. the football lettermen and boosters). Now, they can simply be silenced with "We cannot afford to move all the sports by our estimates, and we tried everything in our power to move football to I-AA, but the NCAA wouldn't let us."

MinotBison
11-29-2005, 02:45 AM
First it was "we aren't going to follow your rules regarding nicknames", now he proposes "pick a division" for each sport. *How much credibility do you suppose he is gathering at the executive level in the NCAA?

Hmmm. Let me see. Probably not much would be my guess. Anyone else? ??? ???

kchats
11-29-2005, 04:06 AM
Dumb proposal. If you want to be an actual division I university you have to make the committment and move all the programs up. You can't just choose the money making sports. There is no way the big schools in the NCAA would allow this, they would all leave the NCAA and start their own governing board and take all the TV money with them. That is why the transition period was so long in basketball and they would definitely make it that long again to curb any of this idiotic talk out of Grand Forks. There was talk a few years back of the really big football schools leaving the NCAA and negotiating their own TV agreement. That would happen if this idotic proposal went anywhere. This is one of those things where they need to look at it from the division I perspective instead of their perspective. Every division I school is where they are because they made the committment both institutionally and financially. Any other school that wants the benefits of being division I should make that same committment. That is the problem with division II they don't make the other schools make a full committment so they see no problem doing something halfassed.

tony
11-29-2005, 07:17 AM
Ah, I'm not too worried about this one. If DI allows DII or DIII schools to play DI sports, I think that there would suddenly be 1,000 DI basketball schools, 0 DII basketball schools, and 0 DIII basketball schools - it's just not going to happen for basketball.

Let's say that the NCAA does decide to allow schools to pick whatever division they want for their sports programs other than basketball. OK, what's to worry about? UND will suddenly jump up to DI-AA in football? Are you kidding me?

UND's administration and coaching staff have gone out of their way to say that DI-AA football is not better than DII, that it takes away opportunities from North Dakota kids to play, that it doesn't get schools any additional exposure, that it is much more expensive, and that DII is a superior division from a moral standpoint. Those are not promising themes for future DI-AA fundraising campaigns. Even if UND fans haven't been buying into the UND line, hearing those points hammered home by their leadership and other fans for three years will make it hard to generate any excitement about going DI in football. Heck, NDSU had a tough time getting fans excited about moving to DI and they were working from a background where many thought that the move was 10 or 20 years overdue.

However, to protect itself from DII-type dilution, DI-AA should require that any DII school playing up must average 55 or more scholarships for the three previous years to be playoff eligible. If DI-AA makes some slight changes like that, I think there are some real advantages in for NDSU in having UND and some other NCC teams try their hand at DI-AA football – at least once they start counting as DI wins for the Bison.

What's not to like?

JBB
11-29-2005, 01:05 PM
The hockey exception was created because there just werent enough teams to form leagues. *The other exception is there to provide championship opportunities in minor sports where none exist in the lower division. *Why create a football exception?

There are more DII universities in North Dakota then there have ever been with more on the way. *The NCC is a going concern in *all sports. *

The way the letter was written isnt going to win any friends either. *Its at a high school debate level with pointed jabs at those universities that have moved up, insinuating they are jeopardizing their educational programs by funding losing athletic programs.

Most of you have probably read the letter but its near the top on this thread link: http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5169

sambini
11-30-2005, 01:16 AM
I don't see this one passing..

Rodentia
11-30-2005, 01:31 AM
Who would have to approve this change? Would it be the D-I member schools? I'm sure that they would reject it.

tony
11-30-2005, 09:25 AM
Grand Forks Herald Chimes In (http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/opinion/13288798.htm)

Hehehe, they might want to do some fact checking when they add commentary to UND press releases.

Anyway, rodentia, fortunately DI has to approve plans like this and it's not going to happen. The only part of it that might is letting DII teams play DI-AA football - and I kind of doubt that DI-AA will be too receptive about that.

TransAmBison
11-30-2005, 12:27 PM
Hahahahaha, national contender practically overnite!!! I love it...those guys up north have a great sense of humor!

Bison_Dan
11-30-2005, 01:12 PM
They can't even win the ncc outright now that it's a shadow of its former self.

bisonmike
11-30-2005, 02:43 PM
What a joke. Does UND think that they are better than everyone else and somehow prefer special treatment? What's next? If they go 7-4 on a DI-AA schedule and miss the playoffs do you think they will petition to get into the d2 or even NAIA playoffs. Come on UND. Hold your university, your students and your faculty to a higher level. Don't cop out and pick and choose where you can compete. Either your a Division I institution or your not. You can't be both.

TheBisonator
11-30-2005, 07:34 PM
What a joke. *Does UND think that they are better than everyone else and somehow prefer special treatment?

Yes they do, bisonmike. Yes they do.

It's sad. I'm so proud to not be a student at UND.

TheBisonator
11-30-2005, 11:25 PM
Reading siouxsports.com, I see a LOT of und fans that are in favour of this whole idea, even though the idea is at its root, egotistical, childish and unfeasible. These people must somehow think they're sooooo much more special than any other kind of school in the United States that they feel the need to pass legislation that would give only THEIR school and a few others an advantage is somehow a good idea, and are doing nothing but parroting the official opinion of their wonk president and their fishwrap of a newspaper. I mean, if there was an idea being proposed by Pres. Chapman that I personally (as a student) thought was unfeasible and reactionary, I would speak my mind about that and say that I thought it was a bad idea, no matter what anyone else said, and I think that at NDSU, there would be a LOT more dissent to an idea like that in a similar situation if the roles were reversed with us and und.

und can make me REALLY fucking sick sometimes.

JBB
12-01-2005, 01:26 AM
Hey, I get it. *Tony wrote the Harold article too! * ::)

Im also wondering why they never mention the restrictions on the Division I hockey participation. *After all it is exhibition only. *By restricting the participation of lower division schools the NCAA is nodding in the direction of those schools bearing the full cost of membership. *

Not mentioning the restriction is misleading.

Rodentia
12-01-2005, 01:39 AM
I don't know whether or not the the I-AA schools have the authority to allow D-II schools to play I-AA football. I'm not sure whether that is a matter for the I-AA schools or a matter for all of D-I.

But there's no way that the I-AA schools would be interested in allowing D-II schools to play I-AA football. The I-AA schools are not itching to drop down to D-II.

Bisonguy
12-01-2005, 03:00 AM
Let's see....

Doesn't college hockey have one of, if not THE, lowest graduation rate of any collegiate sport? That sure paints a good picture of the 'a la carte' system.

Hmmmm.... Hasn't Kupchella been in the doghouse with the NCAA Executive Committee on some other issue? Can't quite put my finger on it, but the terms 'hostile' and 'abusive' ring a bell. Seems like Kupchella is stirring a pot that's boiling over.....

kchats
12-01-2005, 04:45 AM
What are there 60 or less hockey colleges in the USA? How many division I-AA colleges and universities play football 120 or more? Seems to me there are plenty of colleges and universities that currently play division I-AA football and have the rest of their programs in division I sports. The only reason hockey has an exception is there are hardly any colleges or universities that sponsor it. If their president wasn't such an idiot he might be able to see the difference. As Tony has said before why does UND want to play division I-AA football so badly when they have publicly degraded the division stating that it isn't any different or better than division II? Their heads are so far up their ass they can't see anything somebody better help them pull them out.

tony
12-01-2005, 12:26 PM
Hmmm, I hate to get preachy, but some of these posts make it seem like some of you are actually angry about this proposal. Heck, it made my day when I read it. Two of his three arguments in favor of it are contradictory and the third one (being DII means you can recruit locally but being DI means that you can't) makes no sense at all. Getting that GFH editorial thrown in was like getting a complimentary glass of Macallan 18yo after a dinner at my favorite restaurant.

Think happy, funny thoughts.

WYOBISONMAN
12-01-2005, 02:41 PM
like getting a complimentary glass of Macallan 18yo after a dinner at my favorite restaurant.

You have excellent taste..... ;)

TheBisonator
12-01-2005, 05:50 PM
Hmmm, I hate to get preachy, but some of these posts make it seem like some of you are actually angry about this proposal. Heck, it made my day when I read it. Two of his three arguments in favor of it are contradictory and the third one (being DII means you can recruit locally but being DI means that you can't) makes no sense at all. Getting that GFH editorial thrown in was like getting a complimentary glass of Macallan 18yo after a dinner at my favorite restaurant.

Think happy, funny thoughts.

You have a point there, Tony. Why stoop down to an agressive level and get all pissed about it, when they're showing themselves to be a complete satire of their OWN SELVES. Maybe we should see the humourous part in all of this...

Tatanka
12-02-2005, 12:51 AM
Sometimes the best smack is of the self-generated variety! ;)

BisonBacker
12-02-2005, 03:05 PM
I just get the biggest kick and really enjoy watching them and their prez make complete asses of themselves. It kind of reminds me of the old saying "give them enough rope and they will hang themsleves" Now we just have to find a tall tree! ;D

Bisonguy
12-22-2005, 12:07 AM
Interesting commentary about the Kupchella 'Modest Proposal' from an objective source (just look at the title of the link) at http://www.i-aa.com/


I didn't realize that an objective national source would be so scornful of Kupchella's letter-


Anything to avoid riding NDSU's coat-tails...

Obviously, the motive of this proposal is transparent enough to most everyone.

sambini
12-22-2005, 03:50 AM
He is quite a guy that KUPCAKE? Ride on those coattails+++

Tatanka
12-22-2005, 04:03 AM
RIDE, Sally, RIDE!

sambini
12-22-2005, 04:18 AM
THANK GOODNESS WE HAVE JOE CHAPMAN.++++

MinotBison
12-22-2005, 04:50 AM
THANK GOODNESS WE HAVE JOE CHAPMAN.++++

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JBB
12-22-2005, 05:46 PM
If anybody goes to BisonGuys link and hasnt taken the “DI-AA Needs You” poll yet you should do it. *

Clearly kupcake is looking for a free ride into the DI-A football guarantee money. *His proposal is entirely contradictory. *Its full of half truths and "gloss-overs". *

He never mentions the rational behind allowing out of class play in minor sports. He also forgets to mention that out of class participation is not full participation, but limited to trophies only. Clearly the NCAA is drawing distinctions between In Division and Out-of-Division competition in the minor sports. *Hockey would be the first sport to move up because of the money.

His suggestion that members be able to move programs up over a period of yrs rather than all at once is just another ploy to get guarantee money sooner rather than later. *It doesnt matter that the suggestion tells me a university doing this is not ready to move and may never be. *A university should have its ducks in a row before moving. Thats what the transition and first year bail-out clause are about anyway!*

He never mentions That the DI classifications for football are the result of the division managing its own internal issues. *These same divisional options are available to DII. The reason he is not working on that is because there is no DI-AA football guarantee money in that solution and hockey doesnt benefit.

His other comments about saving division I transfer programs from their own mistakes is totally gratuitous. *If there is no advantage to *moving up, and, as he so carefully pointed out, DII football is better than DI-AA football anyway, why in the world would the rules be changed to allow these marginal institutions that cant fund Division I athletics into the division where ever they see a pot of gold to be tapped?

This is how it was before the College divisions were established. *You scheduled whomever you could. *Then came several divisional reorganizations to better manage the varying needs of all the members. *The last great reorganization allowed the divisions more autonomy. *DII has mismanaged their division. *The solution for their mistakes is within the division not the NCAA as a whole.
*

Bisonguy
01-15-2006, 08:13 AM
:o :o :o :o :o :o

Wow, the GF Herald pulls the old Freedom of Information Act on UND.


Looks like the "modest proposal" is DOA- NCAA takes no action on UND proposal (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=114552&section=Sports)

Bisonguy
01-15-2006, 08:30 AM
Here's the full version from the Herald-

UND: NCAA chooses 'no action' on proposal (http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/news/13624260.htm)

In a nutshell:

"The committee noted many of the points you mentioned in support of the proposal: however, several concerns were raised, including increased challenges in the area of governance and the difficulty, under such a model, to define divisional rules like recruiting and eligibility that impact a wide cross-section of sports," Franklin wrote.

"After some discussion on the advantages and disadvantages of the proposed structure, the committee chose to take no action."

NDSU_grad
01-15-2006, 04:51 PM
:o :o :o :o :o :o

Wow, the GF Herald pulls the old Freedom of Information Act on UND.


Looks like the "modest proposal" is DOA- NCAA takes no action on UND proposal (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=114552&section=Sports)
Shocking!! ;)

sambini
01-15-2006, 05:33 PM
++++

GFBison
01-16-2006, 04:31 AM
I can’t believe the number of people who thought that was an original idea. WOW! Nobody ever brought that up before.

Sometimes it’s entertaining living here. :)