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tony
03-16-2006, 03:52 PM
Read a story about this today - about ND's new "The We Don't Like Accents" law (as I like to think of it).

I wonder about the four complaints. Two by parents? I hate to be an ass but that sounds like junior had bad grades and told ma and da that the problem was the instructor not good speaking english was.

There is a decent chance that students are going to have to decipher all sorts of accents in their working life and they'd be well served to learn to deal with it now (for example, by preparing for each day's classes). It's amazing how knowing what a person is going to be talking about beforehand helps you to figure out what they are saying.

Oh well. It just seems like kind of a witch hunt to me, I guess.

WYOBISONMAN
03-16-2006, 03:57 PM
Although, I do have to say that I had some TAs for Chem labs at NDSU that were virtually impossible to understand. The problem back then was that they had to be proficient on the TOEFL test, but that did not evaluate speaking skills.

IowaBisonToo
03-16-2006, 05:36 PM
Remember, TAs perform the crap jobs the professors don't want to do, i.e. teach labs. As a grad student at NDSU, I dealt with many, many foreign students. Yes, some were extremely hard to understand but if you asked them to repeat themselves, they would and eventually, the point was communicated effectively.

I have to agree with Tony on this one in terms of a "witch hunt." The thing is, most college-aged students (now I'm not saying all of them) don't want to speak up in class and ask the prof/TA to repeat himself/herself. They don't want to "stand out." Heaven forbid someone else thinks them weird for asking a question.

As international as the world is becoming, people need to realize that at some point in their life, they will encounter a person whose first language is not English and they need to learn to deal with that situation - especially if they are going into the sciences, engineering or computer fields. I think it truly is a question of laziness on most students parts.

However, if the professors in question absolutely cannot speak a lick of english, even after working with a speech therapist like the article states, then the situation is different. Not sure what the profs role was within the department but, they may have been able to keep him/her on staff if they were really bringing in a bunch of money in terms of grants.

bisonranch
03-17-2006, 12:28 AM
One reason some foreign teachers are good is it prepares students for real world situations....like Tony said. However, when I was at SU I had two professors that didn't understand basic questions, and one never did resolve questions. In that class, the teacher passed most students with A's and B's and I learned very little. He didn't last after that semester.

In that situation the University should stop it before it happens. But the state having a law on it, that makes ND look bad I think.

insane_ponderer
03-17-2006, 04:58 AM
i think its a pretty good thing regardless...it is kinda fun to learn language from each other.

i just hope those students that had their parents fight their battles for them, and the other students that complained have to deal with a foreign born, english as a second language boss some day...

NanoBison
03-17-2006, 05:02 AM
I agree. I hate to burst the poor students bubbles, but there are thousands of people in technical jobs who speak very poor english. Guess what, they are already there. So if you don't understand them and can't work with them becuase of communication, guess who has the problem. You do. I myself have to ask sometimes for individuals to repeat themselves, but they don't mind and I usually get it by the second attempt.

IowaBison
03-17-2006, 04:59 PM
what upsets me about the whole situation is that universities evaluate their employees, there is no need WHATSOEVER, for the legislature to get involved

TransAmBison
03-17-2006, 06:13 PM
I agree. I hate to burst the poor students bubbles, but there are thousands of people in technical jobs who speak very poor english. Guess what, they are already there. So if you don't understand them and can't work with them becuase of communication, guess who has the problem. You do. I myself have to ask sometimes for individuals to repeat themselves, but they don't mind and I usually get it by the second attempt.
I don't know if I exactly agree with you. The Professors are getting paid to communicate their material effectively. I'm not saying that the majority should be put on the chopping block...but some need to go in my opinion.

WYOBISONMAN
03-17-2006, 06:58 PM
I don't know if I exactly agree with you. *The Professors are getting paid to communicate their material effectively. *I'm not saying that the majority should be put on the chopping block...but some need to go in my opinion.


Yes, if one is a TA or an instructor of any sort, they have to have reasonable spoken english skills.

BisonBacker
03-17-2006, 09:21 PM
This should all be addressed by the hiring institution before they are ever hired. I had one prof at NDSU that was very hard to understand. I don't agree that it's the students problem and learn to deal with it. Would it be in there best interest to learn to understand them or learn the material in the class as opposed to trying to figure out what someone with subpar english speaking skills is saying. You have to graduate first before you can get a job where learning someone's poor attempt at english is even an issue. Some of the upper level classes are hard enough let alone trying to decipher what someone with poor english skills is trying to say who is supposed to be teaching you. ND is not the only state with this type of legislation and I support it. If you want to work in this country then learn proper english.

IowaBisonToo
03-17-2006, 09:27 PM
Remember also that the particular departments in which these faculty work are the science and engineering departments. Lest we forget, teaching is only about 50% of their work load - or even less. These are the faculty that are bringing in the big bucks in terms of grants -- i.e. Sibi (sp?) in Chem who is from India, along with 4 other faculty brought in a grant from NIH for somewhere in the vicinity of $5 million. NDSU is NOT a liberal arts school and the faculty do a lot more than just teach.

Now don't get me wrong, there is a fine line between a faculty member being difficult to understand and one who is impossible to understand. Sometimes those who are only difficult to understand are chastised by students being lazy and wanting the information spoon-fed to them by someone who can communicate easily vs. one who they will actually have to pay attention to and work at understanding him/her. I know. As a former TA, I've seen and heard students complain about the english of foreign TAs who I've had no problems understanding.

That being said, if a prof absolutely can't communicate, then they should be let go. No different than if a prof can't get grad students out the door in a timely manner or bring in funds through grants. While working on my Ph.D., our department hired 5 faculty during that time. They have recently asked 3 of them to leave (all born and raised in the US) based on their inability to obtain grants, produce papers, and in the case of one of them, teach effectively.

However, I will have to agree with NDB, the university should be able to police themselves effectively enough where the state probably doesn't have any business.

WYOBISONMAN
03-17-2006, 09:36 PM
It is important that a faculty member can do both.....communicate and research.

westriverbison
03-18-2006, 05:43 PM
If they have a teaching assignment they should be able to be understood by the students. I know I'll get blasted but one of the big complaints by current and recent students that I know is the lack of interest in undergrads by the University. It's all about the money in grants for research. Grad students that can't speak English are teaching lower level classes. Land Grant universities are not just about research. They need to teach the undergrads too.

IowaBisonToo
03-20-2006, 07:28 PM
I don't disagree one bit. You know, we had a grad student in our lab from Taiwan. I didn't think he was that hard to understand and, he did pass his TOEFL before coming over. The department wouldn't let him teach a lab because they thought he would be to hard for the students to understand. Maybe more departments should take that stance. The problem is, that's an easy way for a professor to pay a grad student - make them teach a lab or a full lower level class. I think it varies between departments as far as which have some "guidelines" and which don't.

tony
03-20-2006, 08:35 PM
Heck, yeah, teachers at NDSU should be able to speak English. However, there's a big difference between having an accent that is hard to understand and being unable to speak English. In my experience, my fellow students who complained about teachers not being able to speak English were complaining about accents. Hell, deaf people are going to be hard to understand too. You know what? We have email now and instructors have always had office hours. I had a teacher once who was a little hard to understand. He always answered his emails exceptionally well and I found, especially once I did a minimal amount of reading before each class, that he was a damn good teacher.

Come to think of it, next time I interview somebody, I'll be sure to get the candidate's opinion on foreign language instructors (sneakily of course). Right now, I can think of no better indicator that somebody is going to be a pain-in-the-ass whiner to deal with than some kid who complains too much that he or she couldn't understand teachers. I'm sick of spoiled brat babies who can't be bothered to make the least amount of effort to overcome the slightest difficulties. It's bad enough that they get laws written on their behalf but hell if I'll work with them. (this is me being blunt)

insane_ponderer
03-20-2006, 08:36 PM
and quite honestly, for those of us who grew up in north dakota, learning how to deal with people who don't necessarily speak english well is also a good thing...think about how sheltered and not diverse north dakota h.s. in general is, and even the universities comparatively aren't that diverse.

If you take it for what it is and try a little it will help you in the long run, because you can't hide in your little non diversity hole for your entire life.

BisonBryce
03-20-2006, 09:19 PM
I think everyone has some good points here. I've been a TA teaching in a class the past two years at NDSU and a student for a very long time.

I can empathize with a student wanting a good english speaker. They are paying a lot of money to get their education. I do agree that there should be a minimal standard and that instructors should be able to communicate. Whether or not TOEFL is "good enough" is another question.

What I'd like to point out is that the University and Departments do review student evaluations closely, especially in regards to TAs. I know for a fact that colleagues of mine in the past did not get asked to teach again after they did not receive a good enough review. However, that doesn't do much for the current student with a less than adequte speaking TA.

westriverbison
03-21-2006, 04:36 PM
Come to think of it, next time I interview somebody, I'll be sure to get the candidate's opinion on foreign language instructors (sneakily of course). Right now, I can think of no better indicator that somebody is going to be a pain-in-the-ass whiner to deal with than some kid who complains too much that he or she couldn't understand teachers. I'm sick of spoiled brat babies who can't be bothered to make the least amount of effort to overcome the slightest difficulties. It's bad enough that they get laws written on their behalf but hell if I'll work with them. (this is me being blunt)



That is your right as an employer, and probably is the way I would hire also, but, the undergrads and the state are hiring the University to educate them so they have the right to understand their employees(instructors) if they so wish.

insane_ponderer
03-21-2006, 05:04 PM
That is your right as an employer, and probably is the way I would hire also, but, the undergrads and the state are hiring the University to educate them so they have the right to understand their employees(instructors) if they so wish.

well unfortunately a lot of students are getting catered to, 4 year school isn't for everyone and to continually make it easier for these students puts them at a disadvantage in my opinion. If i was a student and had the opportunity to learn under some of the best minds, or some of the best english speaking minds i think i know which one i would choose. Granted there needs to be some level of understanding otherwise all that knowledge is wasted, but you have to try too, and like i said before, learning how to deal with other "accents" will be a valuable skill later on in life.

tony
03-21-2006, 06:51 PM
That is your right as an employer, and probably is the way I would hire also, but, the undergrads and the state are hiring the University to educate them so they have the right to understand their employees(instructors) if they so wish.

Just to clarify - I'm not an employer. I have just interviewed people. The only employee I've ever considered hiring has been a nanny, but my wife nixed the idea (probably because we don't have any kids yet).

Off topic a bit, but I think we have two philosophical differences. First, NDSU doesn't educate students. Students educate themselves (or not) with the help of teachers. Second, students are not employers. Students are consumers who pay for part of their education. That doesn't make students the boss though. In fact, I'd argue that if you make students the boss, the value of what they are buying drops. Frankly, a lot of students would be perfectly happy buying a good GPA and a diploma.

Obviously, we all agree that NDSU should hire the best possible teachers and that speaking and writing English is a fundamental skill for being able to teach in the US. However, some kids just can't seem to get past accents and I'd hate to see good teachers dropped because some kid doesn't like having to expend the mental energy necessary to understand an accent (or maybe the student has an undiagnosed hearing problem or ADD or is just plain exhausted). My only concern: Will this state law pressure the university into dropping good professors that they would have normally kept?

I just thought this state law sounded reactionary and xenophobic. That kind of stuff always gets me riled up. Very riled up :)

NanoBison
03-22-2006, 07:48 AM
The other thing that gets me riled up, is the fact that even though we are rising the teachers salaries, in order to hire the BEST talent possible we still don't even come close to what is typically expected. We've had to turn away quite a few potential professors and department chairs simply becuase they want a decent salary. I'll admit the current salaries aren't that bad, but still it makes it very difficult to compete with the other universities such as Minnesota, Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan, etc...

I've always found it interesting that North Dakota is quite proud of it's educational reputation of having the best students in the country, but when it comes to higher education, there is quite a few people who get quite stingy very quickly.

Here is a prime example :

Edited by Admin: removed a link to a political blog (at least I think it was political, hard to tell). I just don't want to get too much politics in here.

(Actually that blog didn't have much value in it period...)

IowaBison
03-22-2006, 03:37 PM
And then to think that North Dakota spends about $250/year/person on higher ed while the national average is less than $200.

NanoBison
03-22-2006, 09:00 PM
And then to think that North Dakota spends about $250/year/person on higher ed while the national average is less than $200.






Yes, but it's spread out amoungst 11 campuses.