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NanoBison
03-22-2006, 07:43 PM
Can somebody please explain to me why we still have 11, yes thats right, 11 institutions of higher education in North Dakota?

South Dakota, which has more people than we do, has 8.
Wyoming, which we only have 100.000 more than, has 1.
Montana, which has 900.000, 275.000 more than us, has 2 main schools UM and MSU divided up amonst 11 locations.
Minnesota, which has 5.000.000, has the same number of schools as we do (11), split amongst the UofM system and the MSU system.

Do we really need 11 institutions in this state? Could we get by perfectly say with 5 or 6? Are this smaller schools doing nothing more than mearly keeping a small town alive? Almost like putting a bandage on a severed leg. Pointless.

Also, why does Mayville State, VCSU, and the others, get the same voice as NDSU or UND when it comes to funding?

I think North Dakota could get by very well on the following schools

NDSU
UND
Minot State University
Bismarck State College
North Dakota State College of Science
Valley City State University

Then absorb these schools programs into the schools listed above :

Minot State University - Bottineau
Williston State College
Lakes Region College
Mayville State University
Dickinson State University

What really would it take, seriously, to start legislation to correct this problem?

BisonBacker
03-22-2006, 08:12 PM
Can somebody please explain to me why we still have 11, yes thats right, 11 institutions of higher education in North Dakota?

South Dakota, which has more people than we do, has 8.
Wyoming, which we only have 100.000 more than, has 1.
Montana, which has 900.000, 275.000 more than us, has 2 main schools UM and MSU divided up amonst 11 locations.
Minnesota, which has 5.000.000, has the same number of schools as we do (11), split amongst the UofM system and the MSU system.

Do we really need 11 institutions in this state? Could we get by perfectly say with 5 or 6? Are this smaller schools doing nothing more than mearly keeping a small town alive? Almost like putting a bandage on a severed leg. Pointless.

Also, why does Mayville State, VCSU, and the others, get the same voice as NDSU or UND when it comes to funding?

I think North Dakota could get by very well on the following schools

NDSU
UND
Minot State University
Bismarck State College
North Dakota State College of Science
Valley City State University

Then absorb these schools programs into the schools listed above :

Minot State University - Bottineau
Williston State College
Lakes Region College
Mayville State University
Dickinson State University

What really would it take, seriously, to start legislation to correct this problem?
A miracle and some common sense ;D

TheBisonator
03-23-2006, 12:30 AM
Keep Dickinson State and drop Very Shitty State, and you got yourself a deal there, Partner.

insane_ponderer
03-23-2006, 12:40 AM
first of all, i think you are forgetting the private schools...and i know they dont get state funding, but still count toward the total number. i mean those are 2 more 4 year institutions toward the large number already.

and bisonbacker, with bisonators suggestion...i am with ya as well, sounds like the perfect set of schools to me.

Tatanka
03-23-2006, 01:08 AM
first of all, i think you are forgetting the private schools...and i know they dont get state funding, but still count toward the total number. *i mean those are 2 more 4 year institutions toward the large number already.

and bisonbacker, with bisonators suggestion...i am with ya as well, sounds like the perfect set of schools to me.
++

No way this actually happens in our lifetimes (you'd be absolutely killing the cities of VC and Mayville, for example) but a reasonable argument nonetheless.

roadwarrior
03-23-2006, 01:32 AM
The basic underlying problem is that all of the schools are listed in the state constitution, so an amendment would have to be passed by the voters of the state.

insane_ponderer
03-23-2006, 01:48 AM
++

No way this actually happens in our lifetimes (you'd be absolutely killing the cities of VC and Mayville, for example) but a reasonable argument nonetheless.


I don't know if i totally agree, I mean eventually these towns (especially mayville) are going to kick off by themselves. *Someone in the state legislature has got to realize that keeping these towns on life support by funneling money to substandard 4 year institutions isn't the best idea. *

I understand that a lot of small rural kids don't like the big campus atmosphere, etc. but can anyone on this board vouch for quality of degrees from Mayville or VC etc. *I guess it depends on the degree, but I am going out on a limb and guessing that overall quality isn't what it should be for a 4 year institution.

NanoBison
03-23-2006, 02:12 AM
++

No way this actually happens in our lifetimes (you'd be absolutely killing the cities of VC and Mayville, for example) but a reasonable argument nonetheless.


Why do people just give up and say that over and over again and again. Take some action to see if people might actually support this. All I ever here is people asking why we have THAT MANY schools.

It's understandable that these cities would eventually die, but can someone actually justify simply keeping a college in service in order to prevent a town from dying? Come on people... If the town couldn't survive without it, maybe it's inevitable that your town will die no matter what....

I can just see the arguements from the side of the small town folks, "would Fargo or Grand Forks survive if we decided to keep only one doctoral institute?". A valid question, but I consider both of those schools economic engines on a large scale. There was a study done that said both schools accounted for seperate 1 billion dollar impacts on each of the economies of grand forks and fargo. I don't see VCSU, Mayville, Williston, Lakes Region, etc. coming close to fulfilling that role. Not even half, not even a quarter, probably not even 1/10th.

We don't need to keep subsidizing the smaller towns trying to keep them alive. The ones that want to succeed are working their asses off and are turning the trend of a dying city around. Just look at places like Gwinner with Bobcat, Hankinson with the upcoming 100 million gallon/year ethanol plant.

There are cities that work their asses off to survive and those that feed off of the perverbial government nipple to stay alive,... well it is definitely time to grow up and take responsibility into their own hands.

Even if these towns do die, where are the people going to go? Most likely where they have been the last decade. To North Dakota's largest cities.

Any thoughts?

NanoBison
03-23-2006, 02:15 AM
The basic underlying problem is that all of the schools are listed in the state constitution, so an amendment would have to be passed by the voters of the state.

I would imagine that this could be changed. Does anyone have any idea of what it would take to accomplish this? Do we need to get signatures or something?

(p.s. everyone said legalizing the lottery in this state would NEVER happen....guess what did happen after a vote)

scottheck
03-23-2006, 12:03 PM
I would imagine that this could be changed. Does anyone have any idea of what it would take to accomplish this? Do we need to get signatures or something?

(p.s. everyone said legalizing the lottery in this state would NEVER happen....guess what did happen after a vote)

It would take an amendment of the state constitution which needs to be voted on by the people. It was a referendum on the ballot about 4 years ago, to remove the named cities that would have a post-secondary institution, and failed miserably.

The politics of this issue are volatile. No politician wants to be associated with it.

The NDSU AA board has been talking about this for years with respect to the equitable funding issue.

BismarckBison
03-23-2006, 01:24 PM
As the population shift continues from rural to city in ND, the political atmosphere will also change just as it did for other things such as retail on Sundays and lottery. Besides economics will dictate the closing of the smaller colleges and will push the merger of county courthouses.

NDSU_grad
03-23-2006, 01:56 PM
I would imagine that this could be changed. Does anyone have any idea of what it would take to accomplish this? Do we need to get signatures or something?

(p.s. everyone said legalizing the lottery in this state would NEVER happen....guess what did happen after a vote)
As an aside, it took a constitutional amendment to change the name from North Dakota Agricultural College to North Dakota State Univerisity. Interestingly, that proposition failed the first time it was voted on.

Bison_Pride
03-23-2006, 03:16 PM
I went to Valley City for a couple years. I have a B.S. from there along with a B.S. from NDSU. Most of the students were from smaller communities within 100 miles and most were wanting to become teachers and coaches in rural North Dakota. Although NDSU does a great job of educating future teachers, there is already a shortage of qualified people to fill postitions in communities such as Halliday, Bowbells, and Warwick, and I doubt they would be able to meet these demands if something were to happen to the schools that were mentioned above. So not only would you cripple the economy's that the colleges are in, you'd hurt the supply of teachers and other workers to other areas of the state. I've lived and paid taxes for a long time in North Dakota and I'm not sure what my out of pocket expenses have been to support those schools, but how freakin cheap can you be to whine about it.

I support all areas of the state, not just NDSU and not just Fargo. Those schools are just fine, somebody in Williston shouldn't have to drive all the way to Minot just to take some on-campus night classes to make a better life for themselves.

Paulie
03-23-2006, 03:20 PM
I went to Valley City for a couple years. *I have a B.S. from there along with a B.S. from NDSU. *Most of the students were from smaller communities within 100 miles and most were wanting to become teachers and coaches in rural North Dakota. *Although NDSU does a great job of educating future teachers, there is already a shortage of qualified people to fill postitions in communities such as Halliday, Bowbells, and Warwick, and I doubt they would be able to meet these demands if something were to happen to the schools that were mentioned above. * *So not only would you cripple the economy's that the colleges are in, you'd hurt the supply of teachers and other workers to other areas of the state. *I've lived and paid taxes for a long time in North Dakota and I'm not sure what my out of pocket expenses have been to support those schools, but how freakin cheap can you be to whine about it. *

I support all areas of the state, not just NDSU and not just Fargo. *Those schools are just fine, somebody in Williston shouldn't have to drive all the way to Minot just to take some on-campus night classes to make a better life for themselves.

Some perspective, that's refreshing.

Bison_Pride
03-23-2006, 03:21 PM
After re-reading some of the posts I had to laugh about the logic of this topic. Why doesn't the Federal Government shut off all funding to North Dakota? I mean it's a rural state with no significance, let them fend for themselves huh? Sounds like the same advice your giving to rural colleges, why give them any state funding?

IowaBisonToo
03-23-2006, 03:41 PM
First let me say, I am originally from MN. My wife, however, is from the Bowman/Rhame area. I have learned a lot about rural ND since I met her some 10 years ago. With that said, I am not a big proponent for killing small town economies. I've seen it happen in the area of the state where she's from - eventhough there is a huge oil boom down there right now.

However, there is no way ND should have 11 Universities. When these campuses were established, it was because people routinely did not travel long distances to go to school. They served a tremendous purpose. Now days though, it's not uncommon for kids to drive from Fargo to that area of the state for a weekend and not think twice about it. Like it or not, ND has already become a "commuter" type of state. People will drive over an hour just to go out at night on the weekends. Why can't they drive 6 hours to the East for school when they only come home maybe once a month? If you look at these campuses, most of the students, I would dare to bet, go home every weekend.

I don't have a problem with Dickinson, Williston, and Minot stayng open as that does cut down some on the travel for those that really don't find that appealing. My question is, why are there campuses with 1000 - 1500 students on them so close to UND and NDSU? That, my friends is a waste of money. NDSU and UND, or any of the other campuses for that matter, could absorb not only the programs but also the faculty and staff. Making the remaining Universities that much larger and more efficient not to mention bringing in economic value to those communities. Yes, I know. So what about VC and Mayville. Well, that just takes some economic development brains to work that one out. Didn't Jamestown used to have a state hospital? Didn't they retro-fit that into some type of prison? Why couldn't the communities and state use the existing infrastructure to lure in some type of other business? Maybe even from Bismarch, Fargo or GF?

It is not an easy answer but, it is a question that needs to be taken seriously and, one that I'm sure solutions could be generated to the problem.

Long story short, close down at least 3 campuses.

Bison_Pride
03-23-2006, 04:00 PM
Mayville and Valley City are almost exclusively teachers colleges. Again, read my previous post about rural teaching shortages. Many don't want to go to NDSU or UND and chose to go to those towns for whatever reason, be it smaller campus size, athletics, or whatever. So who's really better off by forcing these people to go to college elsewhere. VCSU and Mayville both set attendance records this fall I believe, unless you can prove me wrong, so what does that tell you.

insane_ponderer
03-23-2006, 04:20 PM
bison_pride, i think ya might have provided some good perspective and swayed me a little bit...that being said, do we need both mayville and v.c. state?

i understand your point and all, but i still think there has got to be a way to get around having that many 4 year schools.

Bison_Pride
03-23-2006, 04:24 PM
Dr. Harvey of the NDSU History Department said our educational system in North Dakota is a result of the value system that the scandanavians who homesteaded the plains placed on their childrens education.

sambini
03-23-2006, 05:52 PM
Bison pride I'M WITH YOU ON THIS ONE. It would devastate those towns if they closed those schools.

MplsBison
03-23-2006, 05:55 PM
somebody in Williston shouldn't have to drive all the way to Minot just to take some on-campus night classes to make a better life for themselves.

What then do you say to people living in states like Wyoming?

Is WY wrong?

RodentiaX
03-23-2006, 06:07 PM
Why should anything be said to the people of Wyoming? Wyoming is not in charge of North Dakota's higher education system, and North Dakota is not in charge of Wyoming's higher educational system.

MplsBison
03-23-2006, 06:46 PM
So it's ok for Wyoming to only have one university located close to the majority of the state's population, but not for North Dakota?

RodentiaX
03-23-2006, 07:06 PM
That's a decision to be left to the people of Wyoming and North Dakota respectively. What Wyoming does has no relevance to what North Dakota does and vice versa.

bisonmike
03-23-2006, 07:13 PM
Those schools are just fine, somebody in Williston shouldn't have to drive all the way to Minot just to take some on-campus night classes to make a better life for themselves.

With online classes becoming more and more popular now people won't have to drive accross the state. At some point in time we have to look if a state of 650K and falling can support that number of institutions.

WYOBISONMAN
03-23-2006, 07:13 PM
While Wyoming has only one University, Wyoming does have many Community Colleges that are similar in purpose and function to Williston State, Bismarck State, Lake Region, Bottineau and Whapeton. *To say that Wyoming has only one school is not at all correct.

Bison_Dan
03-23-2006, 07:19 PM
I think that the only way we get rid of some of the schools is to provide that community with another purpose (business) for the campus. Other wise there's no way it's going to get done.

MplsBison
03-23-2006, 09:40 PM
While Wyoming has only one University, Wyoming does have many Community Colleges that are similar in purpose and function to Williston State, Bismarck State, Lake Region, Bottineau and Whapeton. To say that Wyoming has only one school is not at all correct.


But are any of those 4 year schools (Dickinson, Mayville, Minot, Valley City)?

MplsBison
03-23-2006, 09:41 PM
That's a decision to be left to the people of Wyoming and North Dakota respectively. What Wyoming does has no relevance to what North Dakota does and vice versa.


I don't buy that for a second.

Things aren't that simple.


Wyoming has a good model. Something like that could work well in North Dakota.

RodentiaX
03-23-2006, 09:51 PM
Things are indeed that simple.

Wyoming doesn't write North Dakota's laws. If you're going to argue that North Dakota should do something jsut because Wyoming does it, you could just as logically say that Wyoming should do something just because North Dakota does it.

I'm not from North Dakota, I don't have any stake in this issue. If you want to lobby the North Dakota legislature to change ND's higher education system to match that of Wyoming, I won't stop you. But you would need to back it up on its own merits, simply stating that ND should do it just because Wyoming does won't fly.

MplsBison
03-23-2006, 09:55 PM
Not just Wyoming. Other states with small populations have few universities.

That's the point.

BisonBacker
03-23-2006, 09:59 PM
You can argue this point till the cows come home, the bottom line is the state of North Dakota has to many colleges for a state of this population.

Bison_Pride
03-23-2006, 10:05 PM
And how has this affected you personnally? Are you now broke because of it? The state is running a 107 million dollar budget surplus according to news sources.


www.kfyrtv.com/news_stories.asp?news=1221

BisonBacker
03-23-2006, 10:16 PM
Things are indeed that simple.

Wyoming doesn't write North Dakota's laws. If you're going to argue that North Dakota should do something jsut because Wyoming does it, you could just as logically say that Wyoming should do something just because North Dakota does it.

I'm not from North Dakota, I don't have any stake in this issue. If you want to lobby the North Dakota legislature to change ND's higher education system to match that of Wyoming, I won't stop you. But you would need to back it up on its own merits, simply stating that ND should do it just because Wyoming does won't fly.
I don't think that's what he's saying at all. The problem is that North Dakota's funding formula is flawed and it hurts the larger institutions. Just as bad is the idea that the smaller insitutions have the same voice in the higher ed system as the larger universities do. The system is flawed and not equitable or fair to the institutions that serve the majority of students in the system or for that matter bring in dollars to the state.

BisonBacker
03-23-2006, 10:20 PM
And how has this affected you personnally? *Are you now broke because of it? *The state is running a 107 million dollar budget surplus according to news sources.


www.kfyrtv.com/news_stories.asp?news=1221
The state has a surplus for two reasons.
The first and foremost is that since the state has allowed gambling IE powerball the revenues have gone up sharply.
Second the oil prices have caused a renewed boom in the western part of the state and money is coming in because of that. As far as your comment about the surplus if your saying that because the state has it they should continue to fund small colleges that can't hold there own without funding from the state that hurts the larger institutions as a whole I think your argument is full of holes. I wouldn't want to base my funding formula for schools using either lottery funds or those from the economic boom in the west. Neither is assured to continue.

IowaBisonToo
03-23-2006, 10:21 PM
So in other words, people can bitch about the pay faculty and staff receive, or lack there of I should say, but by all means, lets keep a university within an hours drive of everybody for convenience sake and to hell with paying them a comparable wage and also bring in better and brighter faculty.

I look at it like this. When I was a kid, I attended an elementary and junior high school where I had 25 kids in my class -- in other words, a small school. In 9th grade, my family and I moved to a larger city. My class had 400 kids in it. My opportunities were so much better there than I ever could have gotten in the small school. And, it's just not me. My wife had 11 kids in her grade and because of the finances of the district, she says her education pretty much sucked to put it mildly.

Colleges and universities are pretty much the same. I don't propose ND shuts down every school except NDSU and UND but come on, isn't it fiscally responsible to shut down some of them? Why can't ND divert some of that money to the larger schools where they already have good programs that could be great programs with a few more bucks???? I've heard from many a North Dakotan, we want all these things in the great state but we do not want to pay for them. Well, my guess is if people really thought about it they would rather have fewer things (4-year schools in this case) than have to come up with the money to fund everything they want at the levels they want or should be at.

If these smaller schools still want a presence in their respective areas, turn them into community colleges and use them as feeder schools to the 4-year schools. In this way, there is still a fairly good sized population keeping these schools running and it doesn't cause the town to completely die. And I'm sure with the brains North Dakotans have, they could easily come up with ways to make up for any economic down turn these towns see.

RodentiaX
03-23-2006, 10:30 PM
Montana has public 6 universities that offer 4-year degrees, Idaho has 4, South Dakota has 7. North Dakota has 7 public universities that offer four-year degrees. That seems much more in line with other similarly populated states than it does with Wyoming.

Perhaps some campuses should be closed. But not just because some other state's have less. Pointing out that it is possibile to run a higher education system the way Wyoming is the easy part, making a case that ND should close universities is the more difficult part.

I'm not arguing either way here. By all means, lobby the ND legislature if you wish. But if it perceived as more motivated to benefit a particular university than for the benefit of the state, it might not be so well-received.

Bison_Pride
03-23-2006, 10:34 PM
The bottom line is this. People have been complaining about this for a very long time. Look at all the changes a school like Bottineau has gone through with administrative leadership. In spite of many, many years of people complaining, much like a couple of you on this board are doing, the cost of running and operating them outweights the drawback. Otherwise something would be done. The people have spoken.

Besides, 2-year feeder programs aren't going to put teachers in our rural high schools either.

BisonBacker
03-23-2006, 10:41 PM
I don't quite understand your argument here about putting teachers in the smaller schools. Does it matter where the teacher comes from be it Mayville, Valley City, NDSU or undii? Shouldn't the question be how are you going to continue to put any teacher in a small public school somewhere in North Dakota that can't afford to pay them squat? Whether they get the degree from a school that has to be funded at the expense of the larger institutions is a mute point. Keeping them in the state is the bigger question. I still stand by my argument that having schools like Mayville, Valley City so close to larger universities is ridiculous.

RodentiaX
03-23-2006, 10:45 PM
Getting off on a side topic, there are plusses and minuses to small high schools. I had 26 students in my graduating class. I got a decent education. When you have only one teacher for each department, you have to be sure you get decent teachers. Except for the business teacher, our teachers were good.

I had a lot of opportunities that I might not have been able to do at a larger school. I wouldn't have made the football team at a large school. On the other hand, there are wider opportunities at a larger school.

WYOBISONMAN
03-23-2006, 10:50 PM
But are any of those 4 year schools (Dickinson, Mayville, Minot, Valley City)?

No, as I said in my post, they are community colleges. However, Nanobison's original post lumped the 2 year schols in with the 4 year schools when looking at the North Dakota schools and then Nano stated that Wyoming has only one school. My point was that if you are looking at all schools Wyoming has quite a few schools, just only 1 four year school.

Bison_Pride
03-23-2006, 11:44 PM
I don't quite understand your argument here about putting teachers in the smaller schools. Does it matter where the teacher comes from be it Mayville, Valley City, NDSU or undii? Shouldn't the question be how are you going to continue to put any teacher in a small public school somewhere in North Dakota that can't afford to pay them squat? Whether they get the degree from a school that has to be funded at the expense of the larger institutions is a mute point. Keeping them in the state is the bigger question. I still stand by my argument that having schools like Mayville, Valley City so close to larger universities is ridiculous.


I respect what you are saying in theory, however in actual practice it reeks of abandonment of our rural sectors.

MplsBison
03-24-2006, 12:00 AM
And how has this affected you personnally? Are you now broke because of it? The state is running a 107 million dollar budget surplus according to news sources.

And a budget surplus automatically justifies excess government spending how?

MplsBison
03-24-2006, 12:08 AM
I respect what you are saying in theory, however in actual practice it reeks of abandonment of our rural sectors.





Lets keep the junior colleges and tech schools in those rural sectors.


But, since you bring the up the fact of being rural, have you considered that Mayville less than an hour away from Grand Forks and that Valley City is less than an hour away from Fargo.

You're telling me that those students couldn't drive an hour? Please. They must drive to GF or Fargo at least once a week anyway.


I can see the rural argument working for Dickinson and Minot.


But the duplicity at VC and Mayville is not logical.

BisonBacker
03-24-2006, 01:31 AM
I respect what you are saying in theory, however in actual practice it reeks of abandonment of our rural sectors. *




The mass exodous of the people from rural North Dakota is taking care of that. The larger Universities nor the people in the larger cities have little to nothing to do with that. As far as the small universities in rural North Dakota trying to keep them alive in order to preserve a way of life that is in the past is no ones fault. It is just a sign of the times. If small towns want to survive they need to be creative and attract businesses no different then the larger towns. I respect your opinions also but I think trying to keep smaller towns or cities alive on the teet of the government is a poor plan IMHO.

JACKGUYII
03-24-2006, 01:37 AM
In South Dakota several years ago former Govenor Bill Janklow closed down USD Springfield and some have still not gotten over that. I think like North Dakota South Dakota still has many more colleges than we need for our population. I would like to see more Junior Colleges and fewer 4 years institutes which so often are duplicating majors. Biggest fear of many in South Dakota that another major university in Sioux Falls is evolving with SDSUSD.

NanoBison
03-24-2006, 02:36 AM
I respect what you are saying in theory, however in actual practice it reeks of abandonment of our rural sectors.



I believe the rural sector population is doing it to themselves. According to the Census Bureau's latest figures (2005 estimates compared to 2000 census) :

Only six counties in North Dakota gained population :
Benson, Burleigh, Cass, Morton, Rolette and Sioux (G.F. is in Grand Forks county...they lost population)

Those six counties contributed to a growth of 12871 people. The other remaining counties in North Dakota caused a loss of 18394 people, net effect, we lost people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, it appears to be slowing, but you know what? We still lost those people.

If you look at the towns with those smaller campuses, the campuses are not causing growth in those towns or counties. They are merely a bandage to keep them from dying out.

Again according to the census (2004 city estimates compared to 2000 census) :

Mayville-Portland lost 40
Williston lost 321
Valley City lost 380
Devils Lake lost 380
Bottineau lost 123

( even Minot lost 1,418... ) :o

What the smaller cities need is economic development. Use the money from closing the schools to development of economic incentive packages for businesses, tap into a little extra from the state surplus for a year or two. Give them call centers, industry, whatever. They'll be better off with that type of economical advantage than with a small community college. The money would only be needed for a few years to draw a few businesses to those towns.

I think that is the solution. Of course its not as simple as that. These towns will inevitably die out if something like this is not done. The colleges are simply a bandaid.

NdFaN
03-24-2006, 03:09 AM
I don't see a problem with keeping Mayville and Valley City on the eastern part of the state. Not Everyone in North Dakota can afford to go to UNDii and NDSU. Mayville and Valley City have great educational programs probably the best in the state. Sure get rid of Dickinson State and Williston State college and lose kids on that side of the state to South Dakota and Montana schools.

I have no problem with anyone wanting to get rid of the schools, i just think it would be a mistake in my opinion.

Go Bison!!! ;D

insane_ponderer
03-24-2006, 04:21 AM
Just a thought,

All of these teachers that go to mayville or v.c. for teaching because they want to stay in state and teach...

who are they going to be teaching in a few years? most of those small town schools are consolidating or shutting their doors.

bincitysioux
03-24-2006, 04:45 AM
Just a thought,

All of these teachers that go to mayville or v.c. for teaching because they want to stay in state and teach...

who are they going to be teaching in a few years? *most of those small town schools are consolidating or shutting their doors.

I had a conversation this week with a guy who was on the school board for my district several years ago. He told me that 25 years ago in the township in which he lives there were 17 bus-stops on the route. This year there were 2. :(

Bison_Pride
03-24-2006, 08:22 AM
The funny thing about the whole conversation is that I bet none of you guys in favor of closing any of the colleges in North Dakota even live here. I'm seeing Minnesota, Pittsburg, and other places, but you guys don't even live here, anymore. It feels like your saying, well it won't affect me if they are closed, so screw em.

NdFaN
03-24-2006, 01:06 PM
It's more about greed...They want more money thrown at them.... You should be trying to find ways to bring people into this state not drive them out of this state....Remember these small towns back NDSU just as much as anybody else when it comes to support.

met1990
03-24-2006, 01:35 PM
I had a conversation this week with a guy who was on the school board for my district several years ago. He told me that 25 years ago in the township in which he lives there were 17 bus-stops on the route. This year there were 2. :(


I know what you're talking about. I'm only 25 and when I talk with people that work at my high school, they're already seeing the same thing. The eight-mile stretch of road around me had about 7-8 kids my age when I went through school. Now there are no kids and there won't ever be any to replace us.

IowaBison
03-24-2006, 01:47 PM
1) I live in North Dakota

2) It costs thousands more to educate a student at MaSU or VCSU versus NDSU or UND.

In the current biennium, VCSU is projected to receive $13,200 per full time equivalent student, NDSU $6,331.

If students want to go to a small school, good for them. They need to pay an extra $6,000 a year to do it.

3) Students at UND and NDSU pay more for tuition because of poor policy, ie tuition at these institutions are expected to cover more of the cost of education.

IowaBisonToo
03-24-2006, 02:15 PM
1) I live in North Dakota

2) It costs thousands more to educate a student at MaSU or VCSU versus NDSU or UND.

In the current biennium, VCSU is projected to receive $13,200 per full time equivalent student, NDSU $6,331.

If students want to go to a small school, good for them. *They need to pay an extra $6,000 a year to do it.

3) Students at UND and NDSU pay more for tuition because of poor policy, ie tuition at these institutions are expected to cover more of the cost of education.

This is so very true and I can't see why others can't see this?.?. Why do you think small private colleges charge so much for students to attend? Is it because they have great research and educational opportunities? Some. Mostly because with only a small handfull of students (take ~3500 in the case of Concordia), they have to pay for all the infrastructure and faculty and staff salaries. That, my friends, is not cheap. How is it any different with a small public university? It's not except that everybody pays for it, not just those that go there.

BisonBacker
03-24-2006, 02:58 PM
1) I live in North Dakota

2) It costs thousands more to educate a student at MaSU or VCSU versus NDSU or UND.

In the current biennium, VCSU is projected to receive $13,200 per full time equivalent student, NDSU $6,331.

If students want to go to a small school, good for them. *They need to pay an extra $6,000 a year to do it.

3) Students at UND and NDSU pay more for tuition because of poor policy, ie tuition at these institutions are expected to cover more of the cost of education.


Come on now don't confuse those who want to keep these small universities open with the facts. How anyone in there right mind can look at those numbers and say it's an equitable system and a good idea to keep those schools open is beyond me. Now on the other hand if the students who go there are willing to pay the difference out of pocket rather then the state subsidizing the schools more power to them. If not then I say consolidate them, it make absolutely no fiscal sense to duplicate services with universities when your talking distances of 200 miles or less to other colleges or universities.

MplsBison
03-24-2006, 03:05 PM
I would like to see more Junior Colleges and fewer 4 years institutes which so often are duplicating majors.

Yes.

By keeping tech schools and junior colleges in the rural areas, we can defeat the abandoning the rural areas argument while saving big bucks.


Biggest fear of many in South Dakota that another major university in Sioux Falls is evolving with SDSUSD.


Well...

USF is a private college (right?).

It's one thing to say that there are too many public universities for taxpayers to support. But if a private college springs up somewhere and their students are fully supporting it with their own tuition, nothing much you can say about that.


Maybe that's the answer for Mayville and Valley City?

Privatize them?

insane_ponderer
03-24-2006, 03:44 PM
The funny thing about the whole conversation is that I bet none of you guys in favor of closing any of the colleges in North Dakota even live here. *I'm seeing Minnesota, Pittsburg, and other places, but you guys don't even live here, anymore. *It feels like your saying, well it won't affect me if they are closed, so screw em.

I grew up on a farm in Turtle Lake, ND (Pop. 750) and moved to Grace City, ND (Pop. 60) before I attended NDSU. I have been watching rural North Dakota die for 24 years now and have had plenty of conversations with aunts, uncles, parents, and grandparents to realized that this problem has been going on for along time. I wish Turtle Lake was the way it used to be even just 20 years ago, when I go back there now to visit, its almost like going back in time.

I love the rural lifestyle, I don't like the fact that it is dying, but I don't think that pushing state taxpayer money into all these schools is going to help that problem or slow it down in anyway. Keep a few of them, but use that money in some other way to develop and help out rural areas. How about using that money to help pay teachers or doctors in those areas better so those towns can actually attract people?

NanoBison
03-24-2006, 06:07 PM
The funny thing about the whole conversation is that I bet none of you guys in favor of closing any of the colleges in North Dakota even live here. I'm seeing Minnesota, Pittsburg, and other places, but you guys don't even live here, anymore. It feels like your saying, well it won't affect me if they are closed, so screw em.

I've lived in this state my entire life. 27 years. I've lived in Minot for 18 of those years and the remaining in Fargo. I've been to almost every town in North Dakota with more than 500 people through travel and through sports in high school.

I still say either close them, privatise them, merge their programs into the larger regional universities. I live in Fargo and would love to see NDSU grow from this, but you know what, I think it would be wiser to integrate those programs into the mid-size universities in towns that HAVE A CHANCE of surviving.

For example :

Integrate Lakes Region, Williston, Minot Bottineau all into Minot State University

Integrate VCSU and Mayville State all into Bismarck or Dickinson State.

Keep NDSU and UND the same.

Just closing one, would make me happy to see progress is being made.

WYOBISONMAN
03-24-2006, 06:12 PM
The most efficient model for higher ed is to have a minimal number of 4 year schools and more 2 year schools. How would this integration be more efficient? By having the 2 year schools dispersed across the state there is easy and low cost access to higher ed for all. Then, if one wants to pursue a 4 year degree they can go one of the centers that has a 4 year school.

As far as going private with some of the institutions.....I think that is pretty far fetched.

NanoBison
03-24-2006, 06:35 PM
1) I live in North Dakota

2) It costs thousands more to educate a student at MaSU or VCSU versus NDSU or UND.

In the current biennium, VCSU is projected to receive $13,200 per full time equivalent student, NDSU $6,331.

If students want to go to a small school, good for them. They need to pay an extra $6,000 a year to do it.

3) Students at UND and NDSU pay more for tuition because of poor policy, ie tuition at these institutions are expected to cover more of the cost of education.



Yes, this should be level across the board. Actually in fact, it should be according to what is offered at each institution.

In order of least to most this is what schools should receive (The higher the degree programs offered, the more money should be sent) :

Schools with Associate, Professional Degrees (BSC, Lakes Region, MinotStateBottineau, NDSCS, Williston)
Schools with Bachelor Degrees (DSU,Mayville)
Schools with Master Degrees (Minot, VCSU)
Schools with Doctoral Degrees (NDSU, UND)

whereas in the terms of whats happening right now, its completely ass-backwards.

MplsBison
03-24-2006, 06:39 PM
If we got rid of Mayville and Valley City, we could save a ton of money and lose nothing.

MSU and VCSU students could easily attend UND and NDSU.