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MplsBison
04-15-2006, 01:44 PM
When can we expect these university's programs to be folded into NDSU and UND respectively?

02Bison
04-15-2006, 01:54 PM
Never, this DI thing is not about building a North Dakota empire. Hmmmm....according to you, let's just fold two universities that have maintained their own identity for years in the name of DI Supremacy...thanks for a good laugh

buffalobilljr
04-15-2006, 05:14 PM
There is no substantial net benefit to closing the institutions in Mayville or Valley City at this time or for that matter in the future. The real benefits will come from original and creative thinking on how NDSU and UND can cooperate to truly become a D-1 power in the years ahead. The Civil War is over. On a relative basis most people outside of our comparitively small world can't tell or don't know the difference anyway. We are being presented with an opportunity to accomplish things in a landmark and revolutionary way. Continuing this in-fighting is ridiculous and terribly inefficient. Let's think outside the box and our neat little comfort zones and come up with ideas that will advance our State, region, alumni, and constituients in a meaningful way. Let's go forward not backward. How about the University of North Dakota State Fighting Bison for openers. If your response is to scoff at this you are part of the problem not the solution. The STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA FIRST!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :)

MplsBison
04-15-2006, 06:29 PM
Wouldn't we be saving the state of ND substantially by closing the two schools?

02Bison
04-15-2006, 07:10 PM
Wouldn't we be saving the state of ND substantially by closing the two schools?

No, but you would substantially hurt two cities that benefit greatly from their respective universities.

MplsBison
04-15-2006, 08:11 PM
Are you the treasurer for the state?

If not, then how can you claim what you do?

02Bison
04-16-2006, 04:49 AM
Are you the treasurer for the state?

If not, then how can you claim what you do?


Its simple demographics that state the case.

Mayvile estimated population in 2004: 1,929
(http://www.city-data.com/city/Mayville-North-Dakota.html)

Mayville State Current Enrollment: over 800 students (http://www.mayvillestate.edu/about_msu/index.cfm)

I'm pretty sure those 800 students are pretty important to the livelihood of Mayville, North Dakota. *I guess its hard for "big city" minded people such as yourself to comprehend that. *There is life outside of your suburban dream world and in many cases, what goes on outside of the urban world is the necessary foundation for anything that happens in the urban world. *

How about Valley City State?

Valley City estimated Population: 8,000
Valley City State current enrollment: 1,000
(http://www.vcsu.edu/info/about.htm)

These universities are key to the survival of these towns. *

There is life outside of your big city-minded world if you would open up your mind a little bit. *

bowar9
04-16-2006, 05:09 AM
No offense, and I'm not trying to "scoff" at your entry, but having a little rivalry is not part of any problem. Eventually UND will join us in DI, and they'll be the same rivals they always were. Nearly every state does the same thing we've done for decades. When it comes to that, we're no different than the Floridas, Colorados, and Michigans of the world.

MplsBison
04-16-2006, 01:00 PM
Are you the treasurer for the state?

If not, then how can you claim what you do?


Its simple demographics that state the case.

Mayvile estimated population in 2004: 1,929
(http://www.city-data.com/city/Mayville-North-Dakota.html)

Mayville State Current Enrollment: over 800 students (http://www.mayvillestate.edu/about_msu/index.cfm)

I'm pretty sure those 800 students are pretty important to the livelihood of Mayville, North Dakota. *I guess its hard for "big city" minded people such as yourself to comprehend that. *There is life outside of your suburban dream world and in many cases, what goes on outside of the urban world is the necessary foundation for anything that happens in the urban world. *

How about Valley City State?

Valley City estimated Population: 8,000
Valley City State current enrollment: 1,000
(http://www.vcsu.edu/info/about.htm)

These universities are key to the survival of these towns. *

There is life outside of your big city-minded world if you would open up your mind a little bit. *

Neither Valley City or Mayville are research universities.

That means that everyone from students to faculty go home for the summer.

Do those cities shut down in the summer?

No.


Esp. in Valley City's case, the university population and economic impact are minimal.

In Mayville, the situation would be harder to adapt to, but it would be done. The city of Mayville wouldn't simply roll over and die




VC's students to NDSU, Mayville's students to UND.

insane_ponderer
04-16-2006, 02:23 PM
I would really be curious to see how many of those students that go to mayville or v.c. are transfer students from ndsu or und. I would also like to see how many of those students actually live in those respective cities, because just a hunch would say that a decent amount would be commuters.

Tatanka
04-16-2006, 06:18 PM
If my memory serves me correctly, both VCSU and Mayville receive more per student from the state than either NDSU or UND, and both are funded quite well compared to their "peer" institutions. I think it would be interesting to see if they could make it on the amount afforded to the bigger schools.

It's also very easy to understand what these colleges mean to their respective communities, but I think the question of whether or not keeping 11 public colleges open in North Dakota is a fair one. If anyone in the state leadership had the man-berries to bring it up or to do a serious study on it, we might all be surprised at the results.

Flame away. :-*

MplsBison
04-16-2006, 07:35 PM
There's no way that VC or Mayville should be getting more money than NDSU and UND, any way you slice it.

Bison_Pride
04-16-2006, 08:00 PM
Before I'd support anything like this I would be interested in seeing how much total money would be saved by closing these schools and an estimate of how much of that would be allocated to NDSU and teachers salaries. I'd also be interested in seeing an economic impact study done on the schools and their communities.

It is my opinion from having attended VCSU for two years and living near Mayville for 3 years that both NDSU and UND would see an increase by about 150-200 students each at most. Many would have chosen Jamestown, Mary, NDSSS, or UM-Crookston instead.

MplsBison
04-16-2006, 10:42 PM
Many would have chosen Jamestown, Mary, NDSSS, or UM-Crookston instead.

That's fine.

Jamestown and Mary are private schools. They cost the state nothing.

Crookston costs North Dakota nothing.

Wahpeton is a community college. Thus, if the students who were attending VC or Mayville were expecting to get a bachelor's degree, they'll be forced to go to NDSU or UND.

insane_ponderer
04-17-2006, 12:05 AM
There's no way that VC or Mayville should be getting more money than NDSU and UND, any way you slice it.


It's not more money, its more money per student from the state...and I am fairly certain that NDSU is behind both of them, as well as und...it was a big deal last year during the legislative year trying to get an equity funding bill through.

MplsBison
04-17-2006, 12:24 AM
That's a nice start.

How about closing them down?

imabison
04-17-2006, 01:40 AM
Are you the treasurer for the state?

If not, then how can you claim what you do?


Its simple demographics that state the case.

Mayvile estimated population in 2004: 1,929
(http://www.city-data.com/city/Mayville-North-Dakota.html)

Mayville State Current Enrollment: over 800 students (http://www.mayvillestate.edu/about_msu/index.cfm)

I'm pretty sure those 800 students are pretty important to the livelihood of Mayville, North Dakota. I guess its hard for "big city" minded people such as yourself to comprehend that. There is life outside of your suburban dream world and in many cases, what goes on outside of the urban world is the necessary foundation for anything that happens in the urban world.

How about Valley City State?

Valley City estimated Population: 8,000
Valley City State current enrollment: 1,000
(http://www.vcsu.edu/info/about.htm)

These universities are key to the survival of these towns.

There is life outside of your big city-minded world if you would open up your mind a little bit.


Here is something that everyone who talks about closing ND Colleges down to save money need to think about.

Where will all the students go? NDSU or that other place. Ok, let see, now how many more students can NDSU handle.

Let see now, how many more instructors at say $ 42000 will it cost to teach the students, vs the $ 28000 It may cost now.

Its a valid point that anyone who thinks about closing the colleges in ND needs to think about.

MplsBison
04-17-2006, 02:19 AM
As it was already pointed out, a lot of them will go to Mary and Jamestown, taking financial pressure off the NDUS system.

IowaBison
04-17-2006, 02:00 PM
From another, recent thread:

"2) It costs thousands more to educate a student at MaSU or VCSU versus NDSU or UND.

In the current biennium, VCSU is projected to receive $13,200 per full time equivalent student, NDSU $6,331.

If students want to go to a small school, good for them. They need to pay an extra $6,000 a year to do it."


For those of you who have interest in the wellbeing of the university communities, "tough cookies". I'm not for keeping anachronistic institutions (that should have never been established in the first place.


The demographics to look at are not the size of the universities and their communities. It is the number of K-12 students on the northern plains. Their numbers are going to PLUMMET by more than twenty percent in the next 10-15 years.


For those of you who say it is a small amount of money, you are wrong. The numbers 'appear' smaller when looked at annual, (hell it only costs NorthDakotaBison $1.50/day to pay to keep MiSU-B, MaSU, and VCSU open). If you closed them lock, stock and barrel the net present value of the savings would be more than $5,000 to me.

WYOBISONMAN
04-17-2006, 03:12 PM
As it was already pointed out, a lot of them will go to Mary and Jamestown, taking financial pressure off the NDUS system.


I would seriously doubt that a lot of them would switch to private schools and assume the finacial burden that comes with such a choice. ::)

IowaBison
04-17-2006, 03:16 PM
As it was already pointed out, a lot of them will go to Mary and Jamestown, taking financial pressure off the NDUS system.


I would seriously doubt that a lot of them would switch to private schools and assume the finacial burden that comes with such a choice. ::)

But they have no problem with North Dakota taxpayers making up the difference ;).

MplsBison
04-17-2006, 03:22 PM
As it was already pointed out, a lot of them will go to Mary and Jamestown, taking financial pressure off the NDUS system.


I would seriously doubt that a lot of them would switch to private schools and assume the finacial burden that comes with such a choice. ::)

At most of the MIAC schools, from what I hear, students get most of their tuition paid for by federal aid and institutional scholarships.

Bison_Pride
04-18-2006, 03:42 AM
I doubt that anything will be done until such time as their enrollment numbers drop significantly from where they are now. There is just too much statewide vocal support to close these schools with the number of alumni still living and paying their taxes here. Not one of my hometown high school teachers came from NDSU or UND, they all came from VCSU, MaSU, DSU, etc.

Sorry, I just remembered our VO-AG instructor came from NDSU.

MplsBison
04-18-2006, 05:31 PM
How about this compromise:

turn VC and Mayville into state junior colleges like Wahpeton, Bismark, DL, Bottineau, and Williston.

Send VC's bachelor resources and programs to NDSU and Mayville's to UND.

IowaBisonToo
04-24-2006, 02:29 PM
Someone made a good comment about how K-12 numbers will dwindle over the next 10-15 years. *School districts are already having to consolidate more and more to be able to teach those students. *Why can't the same be true for an antiquated university systmem? *Somebody also refered to VCSU and MaSU as the "lifeblood" of their perspective communities. *Well, then find something else that can serve that purpose. *It's all beaurocratic BS! *When people fight to keep these tiny Universities open, they are actually damaging the economics of the state. *Monies end up at these colleges that shouldn't -- not only from the state but also from the feds. *I just found out this weekend that NIH gave a couple million dollars to the state pegged for the non-research universities. *They each get about $150K/year. *What the hell are they going to do with that??? *The faculty on those campuses are there to teach, not to do research. *In fact, most of them don't know how or remember how to do research. *It's a lot of money that could have been better spent had it gone to NDSU and UND. *That much money could easily support 1-2 research facilities per campus. *That's anywhere from 9-18 more research facilities overall. *Many more undergrad and graduate students working in these labs getting very valuable experience. *Millions of dollars making a big difference instead of making a tiny difference. *It just doesn't make sense. :-?

VCSU and MaSU need to be closed. *The city leaders need to become creative and find uses for the infrastructure that is the campuses. *Jamestown did it with the old state hospital, there is no reason why Mayville and Valley City can't do it with the schools. *The problem is, people don't want to put the time and effort into luring some type of business to the community that could take the place of the colleges. *To much work. *The state pumps in plenty of money to those two towns the way it is. *Why should the city leaders actually have to figure out a way to bring in money on their own? *Just another case of welfare if you ask me.

insane_ponderer
04-24-2006, 06:58 PM
I think you nailed it Iowa. If North Dakota had an influx of people it would be a different story. Unfortunately these towns are dying out, and I don't think keeping the schools open with taxpayer money is the best idea for keeping people there. Maybe Valley City could keep theirs open or maybe Mayville, but there is no reason for both.

I would hate to see these towns totally die, i grew up on a farm in small rural north dakota just like a lot of people on this board. When i started kindergarten my class had 31 kids in it, by graduation we were down to 19, that's just the trend and it sucks, but obviously having a school in your city doesn't prevent it from dying, at best its a band-aid.

There needs to be a better way to use that taxpayer money to entice people to stay or move to those areas to keep them alive.

mikelsch
04-24-2006, 07:10 PM
It's hard enough to keep young people in the bigger cities like Fargo and Bismarck, much less rural ND. Nothing is going to prevent the slow decline in those smaller areas, just like it will take an act of God to close any one of the public colleges/universities. The political nature of ND prohibits it.

MplsBison
04-24-2006, 10:37 PM
Did you guys see my compromise proposal to keep VC and Mayville open as Junior Colleges?

Would that work?

Bison_Pride
04-24-2006, 10:56 PM
VCSU and MaSU are considered teachers colleges. Junior colleges tend to function better as techical or trade schools. Closing one or the other would probably have to be preceeded by a large drop in enrollment at this point, or else it would give the impression of economic abandonment of those communities, and it would be widely attacked by alumni/supporters within the state. It's my experience that most of the alumni from those schools do end up staying in North Dakota. In other words it's political suicide even though it might make good economic sense.

Didn't I read that it would take a change in the states constitution to close those campuses, and wasn't something like that voted down in about 1998?

broke_back_mnt
04-24-2006, 11:46 PM
Did you guys see my compromise proposal to keep VC and Mayville open as Junior Colleges?

Would that work?


Yes I think it would. *I would like to see it structured that way. Im not sure what their classification should be and they may be able to support some 4 year degrees, but certainly all graduate work and professional degrees would have to be finished in Fargo or Grand Forks.

buffalobilljr
04-25-2006, 03:51 AM
How about some responses to buffalobilljr's comments on page one

IowaBisonToo
04-25-2006, 01:40 PM
Sure, why not merge NDSU and UND? At the same time, let's get Idaho to merge UI and ISU. Let's get South Dakota to merge SDSU and USD. Let's get Montana to merge MSU and UM. Let's get Minnesota to merge the U of M and all the other state universities. That's neither a solution nor the problem here. The problem here is that these two little universities - along with all the other ones in the state - drain a ton of money from the two (NDSU and UND) that actively and creatively bring money into the state. Not having to pay for the infrastructure and physical plants alone on those two campuses would free up a lot of money.

It's like I said in a previous post. Everybody wants something for themselves. It's become like a welfare system. The two towns rely and these millions of dollars every year to sustain themselves without having to do much of anything. The same can be said about all the smaller state universities in SD. It can be said about Morris and Crookston in MN. Why can't these cities look elsewhere for an economic influx? Why should the taxpayers of Fargo, GF, and Bismark (close to half the population of the state) pay an exhorbinant amount of money to keep schools open that are within an hours drive or less of NDSU and UND? I understand not wanting to "kill" two towns. The fact is, what did the state do to keep some of the smaller towns throughout the state thriving that don't have colleges and universities in them????? Not a damn thing! That's the way life is.

Give it another 50 years. Maybe people will get sick and tired of living in the big cities and move out the country. Then ND, SD, WY, MT will have an influx of people and they can open a new university or two. Or, maybe they could just upgrade the ones that are still open at that point. ;)

MplsBison
04-25-2006, 02:05 PM
VCSU and MaSU are considered teachers colleges. *Junior colleges tend to function better as techical or trade schools. *Closing one or the other would probably have to be preceeded by a large drop in enrollment at this point, or else it would give the impression of economic abandonment of those communities, and it would be widely attacked by alumni/supporters within the state. *It's my experience that most of the alumni from those schools do end up staying in North Dakota. *In other words it's political suicide even though it might make good economic sense.

Didn't I read that it would take a change in the states constitution to close those campuses, and wasn't something like that voted down in about 1998?

Which is why I'm proposing to keep them open as JCs.

The teaching programs at those schools would then be transfered to NDSU and UND respectively.


That way the alumni would have no bullets to fire at the NDUS and state administrations for the logical decision.


It's a win-win-win-win situation for the VC/Mayville , NDUS, state of ND, and NDSU/UND.

JJ_Penn
04-25-2006, 05:04 PM
"Why should the taxpayers of Fargo, GF, and Bismark (close to half the population of the state) pay an exhorbinant amount of money to keep schools open that are within an hours drive or less of NDSU and UND?"


Are you kidding me...do the people in ND have any idea how easily they get off on taxes compared to other states...maybe instead of whining about two small colleges that are educating ND people you should all move across the border and pay a real amount of taxes, or move to pretty much any other state in the country and than you can complain about the amount of taxes you pay. Until then you all need to stop whining about paying too much taxes and instead be glad that those schools are open or ND would be completely helpless in finding teachers who are willing to work for the pathetic amount of money that ND is willing to pay!!!

02Bison
04-25-2006, 05:44 PM
"Why should the taxpayers of Fargo, GF, and Bismark (close to half the population of the state) pay an exhorbinant amount of money to keep schools open that are within an hours drive or less of NDSU and UND?"


Are you kidding me...do the people in ND have any idea how easily they get off on taxes compared to other states...maybe instead of whining about two small colleges that are educating ND people you should all move across the border and pay a real amount of taxes, or move to pretty much any other state in the country and than you can complain about the amount of taxes you pay. *Until then you all need to stop whining about paying too much taxes and instead be glad that those schools are open or ND would be completely helpless in finding teachers who are willing to work for the pathetic amount of money that ND is willing to pay!!! *

You'll have to forgive MplsBison as he/she is blinded by a big dog eat little dog attitude.

MplsBison
04-25-2006, 06:09 PM
Are you kidding me...do the people in ND have any idea how easily they get off on taxes compared to other states.

Let me get this straight, just to make sure I'm not messing anything up (it happens).

- Because the people of North Dakota pay so little in taxes compared to other states, they should just shut up about taxes being increased and be forced to pay more taxes against their will?


Are you kidding me. :-/

IowaBisonToo
04-25-2006, 07:22 PM
JJ Penn, it doesn't matter how much you pay in taxes or what state you live in (and by the way, as per my online name, couldn't you figure out I live in Iowa, not ND), a person should be absolutely pissed at the welfare attitude these communities have! *A person should also be pissed if the particular state you live in, whatever state that may be, is wasting tax payer money which in this case is keeping 11 state-run universities open when 6-8 would be more than enough! *You should be upset that MN keeps Crookston and Morris open. *They are about the equivalent of MaSU and VCSU. *So get off your high horse about paying taxes. *If you don't like the taxes you pay, then you better move to ND if they're so much better off. *Move to TX or WA or SD where they don't have state income tax. *Don't fool yourself. *They make it up in other ways, I'll gaurantee you that! *Check out their property taxes. *Check out the "special" taxes each school district might have (a la Iowa). *Check out how much a person in those states pays in additional taxes on food and clothes. *You might want to know what these other states are actually like before you go spouting off about a subject like this. *If you already do and still feel that strongly about it, then I apologize and you are 100% correct and all should listen to JJ Penn. :-[

IowaBison
04-25-2006, 08:07 PM
"Why should the taxpayers of Fargo, GF, and Bismark (close to half the population of the state) pay an exhorbinant amount of money to keep schools open that are within an hours drive or less of NDSU and UND?"


Are you kidding me...do the people in ND have any idea how easily they get off on taxes compared to other states...maybe instead of whining about two small colleges that are educating ND people you should all move across the border and pay a real amount of taxes, or move to pretty much any other state in the country and than you can complain about the amount of taxes you pay. Until then you all need to stop whining about paying too much taxes and instead be glad that those schools are open or ND would be completely helpless in finding teachers who are willing to work for the pathetic amount of money that ND is willing to pay!!!

Here's something to put in your pipe and smoke:

North Dakota Effective Tax Rate (state and local property, sales, and income tax): 8.21% (105% of the national average)

Higher education support per capita: $642 (154% of the national average don't forget we live in a relatively low cost state!)
this is more than double the $318 that Montanans pay, South Dakotans pay $393


Higher education support per $1000 of personal income: $22 (166% of the national average)
Montanans pay $12.28, South Dakotans $13.43


http://www.nyu.edu/classes/jepsen/chronicle2004-07-16.pdf

Those numbers are indefensible.

Bison_Pride
04-25-2006, 08:14 PM
Sure lets close everything we pay taxes for in North Dakota. Think of the money I'll save, whoopee, I'll start a tumbleweed farm!!

MplsBison
04-25-2006, 08:20 PM
Sure lets close everything we pay taxes for in North Dakota. Think of the money I'll save, whoopee, I'll start a tumbleweed farm!!

Is this the best your side can do?

A slippery slope? And an absurd one at that?


I hope you can do much, much better if you want any chance in hell of keeping the schools the way they are.

IowaBisonToo
04-25-2006, 08:34 PM
Excellent info, NDBison!!! *:) *I knew there was some pork out there, I just didn't have a grasp on how much bacon is actually being eaten. *But hells bells if somebody actually think about streamlining the state's education system. *You know, if there was that much waste in the companies some of these people work for, they wouldn't have jobs for very long because the company would fold because of to much financial waste. *If they were given the task of cutting cutting costs, they'd damn well try their best. *But when it comes to making people all fuzzy inside, you better not even think about it. *Let's make sure we waste money to give people something to do. *Sure, the towns might not do to well but can you imagine the influx into the cities that are already growing, i.e. Fargo, GF? *JJ Penn and Bison_Pride need to come up with some better arguments than, "I'll start a tumbleweed farm." which, by the way, could probably make money if you marketed it right. *People will buy anything these days. *[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Bison_Pride
04-25-2006, 09:23 PM
I think as a taxpaying resident of North Dakota that the benefit at this point still outweights the negative effect of paying a little more in taxes. In time these places will close, along with many other things, all due to changes in an aging and migrating population, I for one think it's too soon. If putting a couple hundred bucks in your pocket is greatly going to improve your quality of life, you'll probably move out of state anyway.

MplsBison
04-25-2006, 10:29 PM
In time these places will close


Umm...ok.

This is your argument for keeping them 4 year schools?

Bison_Pride
04-26-2006, 07:11 AM
It's not a argument, it's probably a reality because of demographics, but I don't agree with your argument to close them now, it's counterproductive to our biggest problem of outmigration. VCSU and Mayville do a good job of bringing in student athletes and having them stay and work in rural North Dakota. Our education taxes wouldn't be so high if people like you didn't all leave the state once you've used our cheap education system.

IowaBisonToo
04-26-2006, 01:38 PM
It's not a argument, it's probably a reality because of demographics, but I don't agree with your argument to close them now, it's counterproductive to our biggest problem of outmigration.
How, exactly, is it counterproductive to outmigration? Are you telling me that if those schools would shut down, that would mean all those students would go to school in some other state? Are you telling me that if NDSU and UND absorbed the programs and, let's say for agruments sake, all the students then went you NDSU and UND, there would be a greater chance of them leaving because they went to school in Fargo or GF? That makes absolutely no sense.

If a kid from say Oakes wants to go to VCSU and become a teacher and then return to his/her roots and teach - whether it be in their home town or a similar burg - it wouldn't happen because they ended up going to NDSU for education. Doesn't this sound a little silly?

I guess I'd like you to expand on the argument that closing these schools (or others) would be counterproductive.

MplsBison
04-26-2006, 01:49 PM
but I don't agree with your argument to close them now,.

If you don't think we should close them down, why are you fine with them closing in the future?

Bison_Pride
04-26-2006, 01:57 PM
Since I doubt you have ever been to these campuses it would be difficult to explain the how their attitudes differ from most students at NDSU and UND. Therefore rather than explain the psychological motivators of why small town people who move to larger, more metropolitan areas, seldom move back to rural areas I just let you have your last word. You have not given any good reasons other than it would save a few bucks, we see what you are all about.

MplsBison
04-26-2006, 02:09 PM
Since when is saving money something that you can use against the character of a person?

We're talking about North Dakota, not New York City.

IowaBison
04-26-2006, 02:23 PM
Since I doubt you have ever been to these campuses it would be difficult to explain the how their attitudes differ from most students at NDSU and UND. Therefore rather than explain the psychological motivators of why small town people who move to larger, more metropolitan areas, seldom move back to rural areas I just let you have your last word. You have not given any good reasons other than it would save a few bucks, we see what you are all about.

Good for them. They like the intimate, small town atmosphere. They should pay for it, about $7000 more per year.

These students are enjoying the private school experience at the public school price and some of us, the people who are paying the difference, are getting tired of it.


I'd also say a primary reason why folks don't move back to rural areas IS BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS!!!

Herd_Mentality
04-26-2006, 03:17 PM
I believe the impact to closing Mayville State would be the town no longer having a Pizza Hut.

MplsBison
04-26-2006, 05:10 PM
Good for them. They like the intimate, small town atmosphere. They should pay for it, about $7000 more per year.

These students are enjoying the private school experience at the public school price and some of us, the people who are paying the difference, are getting tired of it.


I'd also say a primary reason why folks don't move back to rural areas IS BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS!!!


Your effort is wasted.


He'll simply refuse to understand anything having to do with common sense.

02Bison
04-26-2006, 06:14 PM
Good for them. *They like the intimate, small town atmosphere. *They should pay for it, about $7000 more per year.

These students are enjoying the private school experience at the public school price and some of us, the people who are paying the difference, are getting tired of it.


I'd also say a primary reason why folks don't move back to rural areas IS BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY JOBS!!!


Your effort is wasted.


He'll simply refuse to understand anything having to do with common sense.

Are you talking about yourself? ::)

JJ_Penn
04-26-2006, 06:31 PM
I am not saying that I am judging a person's character by them wanting to save money...what I am saying is that its pathetic that you would rather save 100 dollars than give those kids the opportunity to go to a small school in ND and have it be affordable. It tells me several things about you however: 1. obviously your're not in higher ed. and if you are you shouldn't be, 2. you clearly are either bitter about the amount of student loans you had and are feeling sorry for yourself that you didn't attend a cheaper school, or you are very selfish, and 3. you are on the verge of being homeless because $100/year is going to cause you to lose you home. The fact that anyone compares MaSu and VCSU to Morris and Crookston is also very annoying to me...the students at Morris do pay more than the other University school system people do, and Crookston is an agriculutural school, in a farming community near other farming communities...gee we should close that because we don't have to give any breaks to those kids that want to farm, they should just suck it up and move to the Twin Cities they can get a great education, but screw real life experience that's not important... And let's talk about the fact that poor ND has to pay more than SD and Montana, two big hotbeds for academic excellence, keep coming with the great examples!! You're really making me see the light on the situation.

Herd_Mentality
04-26-2006, 06:32 PM
Are you talking about yourself? *::)



02Bison, Have you sent in your TeamMaker dues for 2006 yet?

IowaBison
04-26-2006, 06:49 PM
I am not saying that I am judging a person's character by them wanting to save money...what I am saying is that its pathetic that you would rather save 100 dollars than give those kids the opportunity to go to a small school in ND and have it be affordable. It tells me several things about you however: 1. obviously your're not in higher ed. and if you are you shouldn't be, 2. you clearly are either bitter about the amount of student loans you had and are feeling sorry for yourself that you didn't attend a cheaper school, or you are very selfish, and 3. you are on the verge of being homeless because $100/year is going to cause you to lose you home. The fact that anyone compares MaSu and VCSU to Morris and Crookston is also very annoying to me...the students at Morris do pay more than the other University school system people do, and Crookston is an agriculutural school, in a farming community near other farming communities...gee we should close that because we don't have to give any breaks to those kids that want to farm, they should just suck it up and move to the Twin Cities they can get a great education, but screw real life experience that's not important... And let's talk about the fact that poor ND has to pay more than SD and Montana, two big hotbeds for academic excellence, keep coming with the great examples!! You're really making me see the light on the situation.


1) If students prefer to go there good for them, let them pay the difference.

2) My education was paid for with scholarships and money I earned while working my way through school.

3) I'm doing just fine financially, but I don't have to be in dire straits to be concerned about how my tax dollars are being spent.

4) NDSU and UND are little different than SDSU, USD, Montanta or MSU as far as undergraduate education goes.

Like I give a hoot about what Minnesota does, that Minnesotans' business, not mine.

Your getting very close to personal attacks, JJ Penn and I think I know the reason for it. Your argument is a weak one and you know it. ;)

IowaBisonToo
04-26-2006, 07:41 PM
B_P, we're not talking about a few bucks here. *We're talking about millions! *If that's your idea of a few bucks, could you spare a few bucks for me? *I'm sure you wouldn't miss it, would you. *;D

JJPenn, It's fiscally irresponsible to keep these schools open. *I'm not saying these kids can't go to small schools. *Did I say that? :-? *Absolutely not! *There would still be others in the state that could absorb the students. *The state probably wouldn't save money on faculty salaries if two schools shut down because they'd be absorbed by some of the other campuses. *The state would, however, save money on the physical plants of the campuses which is where the millions in savings would come in.

What I'm saying here - and maybe I shouldn't pick on MaSU and VCSU , maybe I should have said "two small schools in ND" - is that the number of public universities in ND is way to many for being a state with total population in the bottom 3 or 4 in the nation. *Why does everything have to be in dire straits before somebody does something about the waste that government creates on a daily basis. *Sure, the universities aren't the only place government can eliminate waste. *But it's a very big one on the radar.

So, to address your comments; 1) Are you in higher ed? *Just a question - not trying to be an a-hole. *No, I'm not in higher ed but I do have a terminal degree in my field. *That's probably as close as I'm going to get at this point. *On top of that, I probably know quite a few faculty on the campus of NDSU and many residents of ND that agree 100% with my philosophy of closing down a couple campuses within the state. *2) You can't get much cheaper with tuition than by having it waived. ;) *And, on top of that, I got paid to go to school. *Not to shabby, is it!? *So, no, I'm not bitter about anything. *3) Not losing my home nor am I close, thank you very little. *That's because seeing wasted money in my budget gets addressed rather suddenly. *ND ought to think about doing that, too. *4) You have enlightened me on the MN schools and I apologize for bringing them up. *However, if they are paying more for an education than in the Cities, then in that case, ND ought to take a lesson here, as well. *5) ND has to pay more what than SD and MT?????? *I wouldn't go spouting off to much about the academic excellence of those states, either, as they are our peer institutions. *If you went to NDSU, then in reality, you are also slamming your own education and don't think it's worth the paper your diploma is printed on.

MplsBison
04-26-2006, 09:01 PM
1) If students prefer to go there good for them, let them pay the difference.

2) My education was paid for with scholarships and money I earned while working my way through school.

3) I'm doing just fine financially, but I don't have to be in dire straits to be concerned about how my tax dollars are being spent.

4) NDSU and UND are little different than SDSU, USD, Montanta or MSU as far as undergraduate education goes.

Like I give a hoot about what Minnesota does, that Minnesotans' business, not mine.

Your getting very close to personal attacks, JJ Penn and I think I know the reason for it. Your argument is a weak one and you know it. ;)


I bolded the important stuff for you.

IE, the logical basis for which VC and Mayville should not continue the way they are currently.

RodentiaX
04-26-2006, 10:12 PM
If you can persuade the people of ND to close these colleges, that's fine. I will point out that this is unlikely to succeed if this is perceived as more of an effort to move resources to the larger schools.

02Bison
04-26-2006, 10:13 PM
Are you talking about yourself? *::)



02Bison, Have you sent in your TeamMaker dues for 2006 yet?

And why is that any of your business to know?

MplsBison
04-26-2006, 10:34 PM
If you can persuade the people of ND to close these colleges, that's fine. I will point out that this is unlikely to succeed if this is perceived as more of an effort to move resources to the larger schools.


What's wrong with that?


Shouldn't we at least be getting equal resources?

Mayville and VC get more resources than NDSU!

JJ_Penn
04-27-2006, 12:08 AM
OK so before everyone is against me, I would like to clear up a few things...I do believe that VCSU and MaSu should be getting equitable resources when compared to NDSU and UND, but if we're going to be honest with ourselves, VCSU and MaSU are getting what they pay for in their education. I am not trying to be mean, but those schools aren't really known for their academic excellence. So yes the resources should be somewhat comparitive, however, asking those students to pay private school prices for the education they actually get isn't really fair. Not to mention if the state of ND was more interested in higher ed. maybe there would be more people willing to come here for their education thereby making these schools larger and more self-sufficient. It's too bad that ND doesn't have more to offer people so they are more willing to stay or even come in the first place...for example, two of the posters, going by their names are no longer in ND either...hmmm....maybe that's the main problem. :-?

IowaBison
04-27-2006, 02:15 PM
If Mayville State and Valley City State received anywhere near the same amount per undergraduate as UND or NDSU they would be closed within a year.

Students at the the two institutions may be getting their tuition's worth, however the total cost of educating a student at these students is much more than that.

For example:

VCSU gets about $13,500/year/student from the state and about $5000 for full time tuition and fees. Does anyone out there actually believe that a degree from VCSU all things told is worth almost 20k/year?

IowaBisonToo
04-27-2006, 02:39 PM
...for example, two of the posters, going by their names are no longer in ND either...hmmm....maybe that's the main problem. * *:-?
JJ, if you're talking about me, that is correct. I do no longer live in ND. You're right, there is nothing there for me. Hell, there's hardly anything for me in Iowa. There's hardly anything for me in the midwest! That being said, if there was something in ND, I'd most definitely come back. Actually there is a possibility but if the state keeps acting like the a-holes they are, the company will end up in Lincoln, NE. Not exactly your most scenic state in the world either but at least they're willing to ante up to bring high tech and biotech companies into the state.

Do you see a pattern here? It doesn't matter if it's trying to close a school or trying to bring business into the state, the state is absolutely terrible at it when compared to other states. This is why it will take the state's books having to be in the red for years before they'll even think about closing the schools. They want their cake and want to be able to eat it too. It can't always be that way.

Long story short, I do agree with some of your comments but you also need to realize that the primary fault must lie with the state and how they manage their resources.

sdsportsfan
04-27-2006, 03:09 PM
Whats the points of having cake and not being able to eat it? dont you make cake to eat it. never understood that saying.

JJ_Penn
04-27-2006, 03:27 PM
IowaBison...I too see some of your points in what you are saying, it just seems like there are other ways to change the budget without having to close the schools. If we did close the schools who would NDSU play in their reclassification to DI :) Without them they would have a hard time finding a full schedule...so atleast until then we should keep them open ;)

Bison_Dan
04-27-2006, 03:33 PM
IowaBison...I too see some of your points in what you are saying, it just seems like there are other ways to change the budget without having to close the schools. *If we did close the schools who would NDSU play in their reclassification to DI :) *Without them they would have a hard time finding a full schedule...so atleast until then we should keep them open ;)

We'll see how und does scheduling if they move to DI! As far as closing those schools it will never happen. Say you want to close Mayville & VC - all the other small schools all band together (Legislature) from those communities and they can block any closings. It's just a fact of life in ND.

Herd_Mentality
04-27-2006, 03:42 PM
Are you talking about yourself? *::)



02Bison, Have you sent in your TeamMaker dues for 2006 yet?

And why is that any of your business to know?

Simple, because you get so secretive when I ask.

IowaBison
04-27-2006, 03:50 PM
IowaBison...I too see some of your points in what you are saying, it just seems like there are other ways to change the budget without having to close the schools. If we did close the schools who would NDSU play in their reclassification to DI :) Without them they would have a hard time finding a full schedule...so atleast until then we should keep them open ;)

We'll see how und does scheduling if they move to DI! As far as closing those schools it will never happen. Say you want to close Mayville & VC - all the other small schools all band together (Legislature) from those communities and they can block any closings. It's just a fact of life in ND.


I wouldn't be too sure about that. Mayville is still reeling from its heating bill this fall (which put more than 1/2 million dollars over budget) so much so that they are delaying hiring a new president.