New Fargo Library

[NanoBison]

At first I was quite excited at Fargo building the new library downtown. After looking at the new imagery in the Forum today, I can say, at the very least, I'm a bit disappointed. The city has doubled in size since the library was built. They decided to use part of the old building in the new one, and to top it off, I think it looks pathetic :

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=125003&section=news

Considering other libraries in similar sized cities, are we screwing the pooch on this one?

Anyone else think so?

Why the heck don't we collect a little more money from the sales tax, (it's apparently growing quicker than last thought...), and hold a fundraising drive. Get another $10 million and build something to be proud off?

[MplsBison]

I think this question has to be considered:

with the use of the internet increasing, is there as much of a need for a giant library? Would a smaller one be able to serve the declining usership?

[TheBisonator]

It doesn't matter - That design is WEAK. For the people in charge, their testes shriveled up and died when it came to this one. It just looks like putting an 80's-style box on top of the existing library. That is SO weak. Look at Winnipeg's new library. I'll get some pics of that if I can find it. Picture Winnipeg's new library, but at about 1/3 of the size (with maybe 2 floors instead of its current five). THAT'S the kind of thing I wanted to see. But it looks like in this case, they really pussed out on this one. It may be bigger, but it's the same old piece of crap with something plopped on top. Really crappy design, really crappy plan, overall a piece of small town-minded CRAP. You'd think Minot would do something like this, but not Fargo.

[Bisonguy]

I think this question has to be considered:

with the use of the internet increasing, is there as much of a need for a giant library? Would a smaller one be able to serve the declining usership?


A lot of books are becoming digitized by either Google or Yahoo right now, with plans to have a vast library(much, much bigger than what could be stored in a Fargo library) in the near future .

[MplsBison]

Picture Winnipeg's new library, but at about 1/3 of the size (with maybe 2 floors instead of its current five). THAT'S the kind of thing I wanted to see.

Does Fargo need something of that grandness?

Keep in mind that with Canada's very high tax rate, they can afford to do much more.

[NanoBison]

For an area thats getting close to a 1/4 million people, yes.

[MplsBison]

250 - 180 = 70.

Still a bit to go.

How many people in Moorhead and West Fargo, let alone rural Cass and Clay counties, are going to use the Library?

[broke_back_mnt]

I think a lot of people will use it MplsBison. Im from West Fargo and of course graduated from NDSU. I used the Fargo Library a lot, along with the Moorhead State Library and NDSU library. A lot goes on at the Fargo library that involves members from all communities you mentioned. I dont use it anymore, because I dont live in North Dakota.

[MplsBison]

I'm not trying to put down the library or the people who use it.

I'm questioning the necessity for a grandiose, Taj Mahal temple to books.

[broke_back_mnt]

I never had that feeling about your posts MnplsBison. :) Just wanted to comment about the value of the library to the areas citizens that might use it. It has wonderful childresns programs and great periodicals and newspapers. I didnt do much research there, but used it mainly for entertainment.

[Bison_Pride]

I think this question has to be considered:

with the use of the internet increasing, is there as much of a need for a giant library? Would a smaller one be able to serve the declining usership?


Have you been in the library lately? It's always crowded, and it's getting worse, so apparently there is a need for a bigger one.

[MplsBison]

Hmm.

I guess I really can't comment on the issue further.

Just not a huge fan of over extravagant government spending.

[NanoBison]

Government spending? The citizens voted for it, and are paying for it MplsBison, I think we got jipped on the end result.

[MplsBison]

Government spending? The citizens voted for it, and are paying for it MplsBison, I think we got jipped on the end result.

Is it being paid for by private donations?

I guess I don't understand what you mean.

[TheBisonator]

250 - 180 = 70.

Still a bit to go.

How many people in Moorhead and West Fargo, let alone rural Cass and Clay counties, are going to use the Library?

209,000 live in the Fargo-Moorhead-Wahpeton 4-county metro area. Cass and Clay together have 185,000.

The Census will designate the metro for the 2010 Census as Cass, Clay, Richland and Wilkin counties.

[TheBisonator]

Hmm.

I guess I really can't comment on the issue further.

Just not a huge fan of over extravagant government spending.

I'm sorry, but an adequate library system does not fall under the category of "extavagant government spending". Building new rest areas every few miles on the interstates, definitely. But not libraries.

[MplsBison]

Obviously what qualifies for "adequate" is subjective.

[MplsBison]

The Census will designate the metro for the 2010 Census as Cass, Clay, Richland and Wilkin counties.


How would you know that?

Until I see a link somewhere I'm using the Cass/Clay area that is defined as 174k in 2000.

[NanoBison]

Government spending? The citizens voted for it, and are paying for it MplsBison, I think we got jipped on the end result.

Is it being paid for by private donations?

I guess I don't understand what you mean.


No, its being paid for by the extension of the Fargodome taxes which the citizens voted for by the majority vote needed to pass. We took on the cost of paying for the library, not the government. The government just arranges the project. We got screwed on that part. We should have kept the tax going for another 2-3 years and built something a bit nicer. Actually this should have been a project between the cities of West Fargo, Fargo, and Moorhead, but I know that would have never flown.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe with the Internet, we don't need books any more.

I sure hope we don't take this approach when it comes to building a performing arts center downtown. It would be better done privately.

[NanoBison]

The Census will designate the metro for the 2010 Census as Cass, Clay, Richland and Wilkin counties.


How would you know that?

Until I see a link somewhere I'm using the Cass/Clay area that is defined as 174k in 2000.


As of December 2005, the Census bureau is claiming that Area as a Combined Statistical Area (CSA's)
It's refered to as : Fargo-Wahpeton, ND-MN Combined Statistical Area
You may find the list of others here :

http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/metro_general/List6.txt

(Notice, they also added St. Cloud to the Minneapolis-St.Paul area...)

[MplsBison]

Right you are!






244 Fargo-Wahpeton, ND-MN Combined Statistical Area
244 22020 Fargo, ND-MN Metropolitan Statistical Area
244 47420 Wahpeton, ND-MN Micropolitan Statistical Area

What is a micropolitan area?

Does that mean that just Wahpeton and Breckenridge will be added or that both counties will be added?


Also, according to Google maps (maps.google.com) it takes about an hour to get from Fargo to Wahpeton. They also claim it takes about an hour to get to Fergus Falls from Fargo.

So why isn't Fergus Falls being added to the Fargo area as well?

[MplsBison]

We took on the cost of paying for the library, not the government. The government just arranges the project.

This is the part that confuses me.

I'm not sure where you took civics class, but when taxes are used to pay for something the government owns it. The people don't own it.



Maybe I'm wrong, maybe with the Internet, we don't need books any more.

That's not correct at all. Books are still needed.

However, with the internet the need for huge libraries is maybe not as much as it was.

[NanoBison]

Right you are!






244 Fargo-Wahpeton, ND-MN Combined Statistical Area
244 22020 Fargo, ND-MN Metropolitan Statistical Area
244 47420 Wahpeton, ND-MN Micropolitan Statistical Area

What is a micropolitan area?

Does that mean that just Wahpeton and Breckenridge will be added or that both counties will be added?


Also, according to Google maps (maps.google.com) it takes about an hour to get from Fargo to Wahpeton. They also claim it takes about an hour to get to Fergus Falls from Fargo.

So why isn't Fergus Falls being added to the Fargo area as well?



I don't know to tell you the truth, other than that Fergus Fall is in OtterTail County which isn't included in the new 4 county definition.

[NanoBison]

We took on the cost of paying for the library, not the government. The government just arranges the project.

This is the part that confuses me.

I'm not sure where you took civics class, but when taxes are used to pay for something the government owns it. The people don't own it.



Maybe I'm wrong, maybe with the Internet, we don't need books any more.

That's not correct at all. Books are still needed.

However, with the internet the need for huge libraries is maybe not as much as it was.




I never said the people own it. We voted to take on another tax to pay for it, instead of the government just normally taking your taxes away and constructing what they wanted. We had a say in what was supposed to be the end result, but in my opinion, was manipulated along the way into what we now have, which is using the OLD library building and adding on to it, instead of the completely new construction that was initially so highly talked about. We really don't need a bohemoth of a library, but I'd like to see something better designed than what was shown in the Forum earlier this week.

I also agree that books will always be needed, and personally I'd rather read from paper than a computer screen if I'm going to read 500 pages of material. Heck, I even print out most of the stuff I read anyways. The contrast on a computer screen is just too much for my eyes after a few hours.

[MplsBison]

but in my opinion, was manipulated along the way into what we now have

Welcome to the world of government spending.

[NanoBison]

Government spending? The citizens voted for it, and are paying for it MplsBison, I think we got jipped on the end result.

Is it being paid for by private donations?

I guess I don't understand what you mean.


I give up. Yes, it's being paid for by taxes, through the government, yes it will be OWNED by the City of Fargo, but the main difference I was trying to make is that unlike normal government spending, where they just collect your taxes and spend spend spend, this is case where the people elected to take an additional tax burden on to pay for something they think is needed in the community. There were certain expectations that were present when the whole thing started, but at this point, I don't think the whole project lived up to what it was supposed to be.

I would have been happy with a more practical building, maybe three stories tall, and ALL new construction.

When you consider the size of the other libraries in the state, I believe our library should have been at the top of the list :

(From the Fargo Forum http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=73399&section=news)

Minot's library has about 40,700 square feet, Minot Library Director Jerry Kalpf said. It serves about 36,500 people.

Bismarck's public library has about 70,000 square feet, Bismarck Library Director Tom Jones said. It serves about 69,416 people.

Grand Forks, has a library with about 37,400 square feet, Director Dennis Page said. The library serves about 66,109 people.

Fargo, has a 31,000 square foot main library. It serves 90,500 people.

(end)

I'm think the library should have been larger than the 70,000 sq/ft building in Bismarck since we serve about 21,084 more people than the Bismarck one does.

[NanoBison]

but in my opinion, was manipulated along the way into what we now have

Welcome to the world of government spending.



I think it could be better summed up as "ineffective leadership" on the library expansion committee.

[MplsBison]

I give up. Yes, it's being paid for by taxes, through the government, yes it will be OWNED by the City of Fargo, but the main difference I was trying to make is that unlike normal government spending, where they just collect your taxes and spend spend spend, this is case where the people elected to take an additional tax burden on to pay for something they think is needed in the community. There were certain expectations that were present when the whole thing started, but at this point, I don't think the whole project lived up to what it was supposed to be.

Point taken.



Minot's library has about 40,700 square feet, Minot Library Director Jerry Kalpf said. It serves about 36,500 people.

Bismarck's public library has about 70,000 square feet, Bismarck Library Director Tom Jones said. It serves about 69,416 people.

Grand Forks, has a library with about 37,400 square feet, Director Dennis Page said. The library serves about 66,109 people.

Fargo, has a 31,000 square foot main library. It serves 90,500 people.


I'm think the library should have been larger than the 70,000 sq/ft building in Bismarck since we serve about 21,084 more people than the Bismarck one does.


Just because a city has X people living inside the boundries doesn't mean they all share the same rate of usership.

It could be that many in Fargo will never set foot inside the new library.

[met1990]

(From the Fargo Forum http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=73399&section=news)

Minot's library has about 40,700 square feet, Minot Library Director Jerry Kalpf said. It serves about 36,500 people.

Bismarck's public library has about 70,000 square feet, Bismarck Library Director Tom Jones said. It serves about 69,416 people.

Grand Forks, has a library with about 37,400 square feet, Director Dennis Page said. The library serves about 66,109 people.

Fargo, has a 31,000 square foot main library. It serves 90,500 people.

(end)

I'm think the library should have been larger than the 70,000 sq/ft building in Bismarck since we serve about 21,084 more people than the Bismarck one does.


I agree the Fargo addition should rival the larger libraries. However, I'd rather see a smaller building with more effectively used floor space. I've never been the the Minot and Bismarck libraries and only in the GF library twice. I'd think the Fargo library could take notes from the NDSU library on how to maximize floor space usage (Except the part about flooding. Fargo can disregard that part...).

[IowaBison]

As a pragmatist (ie cheap sob and outcome oriented individual) and a bona fide library user:

I think they should turn the current library over to the city, add two more strip mall libraries (like the one in south fargo), a large book depository, MORE BOOKS, and a new book mobile or two.

Constructing a building isn't going to increase circulation that much, but will cost tens of millions of dollars.

The way the proposal went through the current situation could have been easily foreseen. The library board/community basically didn't little planning other than say, "we need a new library". The result will be the waste of millions of dollars in my opinion.

[MplsBison]

As a pragmatist (ie cheap sob and outcome oriented individual) and a bona fide library user:

I think they should turn the current library over to the city, add two more strip mall libraries (like the one in south fargo), a large book depository, MORE BOOKS, and a new book mobile or two.

Constructing a building isn't going to increase circulation that much, but will cost tens of millions of dollars.

The way the proposal went through the current situation could have been easily foreseen. The library board/community basically didn't little planning other than say, "we need a new library". The result will be the waste of millions of dollars in my opinion.



Agree.

This is nothing but pork spending so on the campaign trail someone can say "look how much money we brought to the city" etc.


A new satillite library in south Fargo would've been a wiser decision.

[roadwarrior]

A new satillite library in south Fargo would've been a wiser decision.


I guess you havent kept up completely on the library expansion in Fargo. A 4000 sq foot library will be opening up in the Northport shopping center and a new 15000 sq foot library will be constructed on 32nd ave south.

[MplsBison]

Northport? Yeah, I guess that's relevent to south Fargo.


It's good that they're expanding south, though.


If they want usership to increase, they need to bring the books out to the people, not the other way around!

[NanoBison]

I think this question has to be considered:

with the use of the internet increasing, is there as much of a need for a giant library? Would a smaller one be able to serve the declining usership?


A lot of books are becoming digitized by either Google or Yahoo right now, with plans to have a vast library(much, much bigger than what could be stored in a Fargo library) in the near future .


Yeah, but there are many copyright issues that have to be ironed out before that can be successful. Right now, they both only have a couple of publishers giving support, but mainly only for people to read a few pages at a time, basically to preview the book and later purchase it. It's still a few years away from being able to read any ENTIRE book online, unless it has always been publicly available (no copyright, not covered by copyright or published under an open license).



As for other comments on the topic, I agree with TheBisonator. The final result, that has been shown thus far, is of what I would expect from a city such as Minot or smaller.


I mean, take a look at the other library buildings the chosen firm has done and tell me we are getting our money's worth :

http://www.msrltd.com/lib_mountprospect.html
http://www.msrltd.com/lib1.html
http://www.msrltd.com/lib5.html

That is the type of design I was hoping to see, ours probably doesn't need to be as large as some of them, but that type of design should have been used.