Higher Ed Funding: This Sh$t is outta Control!

[IowaBison]

an extra $73 million, no problem!

http://www.in-forum.com/News/articles/145729


$461 million/32,000 students/2 years

that's only $7,600 per student. :o

[IowaBisonToo]

I know this is like beating a dead horse but, how much more would be needed and how much would tuition go up if there were 2 or 3 fewer schools in this state? :-/ :-? >:(

[IowaBison]

tell me which schools you'd like to see axed and I can get you the numbers pretty quick.

[IowaBisonToo]

tell me which schools you'd like to see axed and I can get you the numbers pretty quick.
Let's use Mayville St., Valley City St., and the Williston campus.

[IowaBison]

Mayville $5 million.
Valley City $6
Williston $3 *bad choice IowaBisonToo!


with about 32,000 full-time students that would be an annual 'decrease' in tuition of $500/student, other things being equal.

(alternatively, you could think of it as an additional $5 million for NDSU each year, if funding levels stayed the same.)

[TheDoctor]

tell me which schools you'd like to see axed and I can get you the numbers pretty quick.
Let's use Mayville St., Valley City St., and the Williston campus.

VC is the most stable of the four years outside the big 2. So, I say drop Minot State instead of VC.

[Mr._Bill]

VC more stable than Minot? Yeah Right, that's a laugh. No way.

[mebison]

And now you have seen the biggest reason none of ND's 11 schools will close anytime soon....Everyone's got a different opinion of which school is dead weight.

[99Bison]

And now you have seen the biggest reason none of ND's 11 schools will close anytime soon....Everyone's got a different opinion of which school is dead weight.

Then close them all except the 2 that everyone agrees on! ;D ;D ;D

Really though, it is necessary for everyone is the state to see other things than their hometown... gives people perspective.

[insane_ponderer]

And now you have seen the biggest reason none of ND's 11 schools will close anytime soon....Everyone's got a different opinion of which school is dead weight.

Then close them all except the 2 that everyone agrees on! ;D ;D ;D

Really though, it is necessary for everyone is the state to see other things than their hometown... gives people perspective.


And for that matter get out of the state and see things to, you won't die, the boogeyman won't get you. In the current info age it's pretty damn easy to stay in contact with people all over the globe. All those people in mayville, valley city, minot etc. that think that they have any right to call those schools quality institutions and think that by holding onto those institutions is the only way to keep their town alive are completely off their rocker.

The day the higher ed funding situation in this state gets fixed will be a very happy day, i feel its gonna be a long time and a lot of wasted dollars in the making, but hopefully it happens.

[mebison]

And now you have seen the biggest reason none of ND's 11 schools will close anytime soon....Everyone's got a different opinion of which school is dead weight.

Then close them all except the 2 that everyone agrees on! ;D ;D ;D

Really though, it is necessary for everyone is the state to see other things than their hometown... gives people perspective.

On this board I can think of one school everyone would agree on, what's the other one? :)

[sambini]

DICKINSON STATE?

[bison_once]

DICKINSON STATE?

I don't think so!!!!!!!

[IowaBisonToo]

DICKINSON STATE?
Dickinson State is remote enough where it still serves a purpose. I think the one (s)he is referring to is Mayville. Absolutely no reason to keep that open when there are two large universities within a 30-45 minute drive from there. Complete and utter carelessness on the part of the Higher Board of Education (if you can even call them that with their mentality when it comes to things of this nature). Anybody that ran a business in a similar fashion to the way the state runs the university system would either be fired or out of business - plain and simple!

[BisonBacker]

Simply a waste of taxpayers dollars. Eventually it will come to an end. Rural ND is losing population and the number of kids in the small towns are decreasing. Over time it will eventually have to change as there will not be as many students attending the smaller colleges and it will get to the point that even the most die hard backers of those schools will have to see the light or get steamrolled by the outcry of taxpayers who will finally say enough is enough. Which schools those will be is yet to be determined but it will be more then one thats for sure.

[bisonaudit]

Every one of these institutions was established by and are explicitly named in the state constitution. In order to close any of them you have to amend the constitution. I don't know the exact details but I believe that it is similar to the federal process in that it's a two step process requiring a super majority in each vote. Good luck with that.

[IowaBisonToo]

We'll see in the years to come as the population of rural ND declines and people in these areas insist that these schools stay open. Once it can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt how much it costs to keep these schools open and show they are a big stone around the states neck, then maybe the people of ND will get sick and tired of pumping in excessive tax dollars and require that the state close the schools with a constitutional ammendment. Might be a long ways out but it makes no sense at all to keep them open, I don't care how hard you argue that statement.

[bisonaudit]

It doesn't make sense to keep them all open. Some probably should have been shuttered years ago.

Politically, they are constitutionally protected pork projects and it's going to be very difficult to assemble the political will to amend any of them out of existance.

[bisonaudit]

To amend requires a simple majority in both houses plus a majority in a public vote. Or via initiated measure signutures from 4% of the population to initiate and a simple majority to amend.

So, not as difficult as I thought. But still not easy. Initiated measure is probably your best bet.

[insane_ponderer]

So does anyone think that it would be best to do this one at a time. I have to think that you could open enough eyes in the state to go after mayville and shut it down. We all know how protective everyone is of their money, and with good reason. If it could be shown what a waste of taxpayers money mayville is I have to think the rest of the state would jump on the bandwagon.

And once you do mayville than maybe you could hit one of the other ones. If you do it one at a time that whole divide and conquer thing comes into play and you could probably get enough votes.

[IowaBison]

Every one of these institutions was established by and are explicitly named in the state constitution.

They were not established by the state constitution.

A number of schools, BSC and Lake Region State for example, were created post-WWII.

[bisonaudit]

Every one of these institutions was established by and are explicitly named in the state constitution.

They were not established by the state constitution.

A number of schools, BSC and Lake Region State for example, were created post-WWII.


Artilce VIII
Section 6.
1. A board of higher education, to be officially known as the state board of higher
education, is hereby created for the control and administration of the following state
educational institutions, to wit:
a. The state university and school of mines, at Grand Forks, with their substations.
b. The state agricultural college and experiment station, at Fargo, with their
substations.
c. The school of science, at Wahpeton.
d. The state normal schools and teachers colleges, at Valley City, Mayville, Minot,
and Dickinson.
e. The school of forestry, at Bottineau.
f. And such other state institutions of higher education as may hereafter be
established.


Williston, Bismarck, an Devils Lake are not explicitly named in the constitution. The others are.

[IowaBison]

(Section 6 refers to the creation and authority of the SBHE, ie post Higher Ed breakdown in the 30s)

UND was already established prior to Statehood

NDSU, Mayville State, VCSU were established in 1889 (as part of the constitution)

NDSCS was established in 1903
Bottineau was founded in 1907
MiSU was founded in 1913
Dickinson was founded in 1916

(BSC-1939, LRSC-1941, WSC-1957, all were added to the NDUS/constitution later)

[IowaBison]

Section 12 of Article IX includes the language for UND, NDSU, MaSU, and Valley City.

Section 13 contains the language for NDSCS, Bottineau, MiSU, and Dickinson.

[Hammersmith]

There are two ways to close down a ND college. The first method is the one that was used for Ellendale. In that case, a single school was targeted for closure and the amendments referred only to that college. The other method is to strip all individual college-specific language from the constitution so that the SBoHE can close campuses as they (and the legislature) see fit. This method was tried a few years back and it failed when it was put to a statewide vote.

I'd like to see the second method tried again with a better informational/marketing campaign. I don't know if it would succeed, but I think it's the best way. If we try the first method, even if we would succeed, we'd have to go through the whole process again and again for each campus closing.

[broke_back_mnt]

Keep the Universities in Dickenson, Minot and Bismarck.

[IowaBison]

There are two ways to close down a ND college. The first method is the one that was used for Ellendale. In that case, a single school was targeted for closure and the amendments referred only to that college. The other method is to strip all individual college-specific language from the constitution so that the SBoHE can close campuses as they (and the legislature) see fit. This method was tried a few years back and it failed when it was put to a statewide vote.

I'd like to see the second method tried again with a better informational/marketing campaign. I don't know if it would succeed, but I think it's the best way. If we try the first method, even if we would succeed, we'd have to go through the whole process again and again for each campus closing.

I say go with the former, else the action will be seen as another scheme concocted by Imperial Cass.

[Bisonguy]

There are two ways to close down a ND college. The first method is the one that was used for Ellendale. In that case, a single school was targeted for closure and the amendments referred only to that college. The other method is to strip all individual college-specific language from the constitution so that the SBoHE can close campuses as they (and the legislature) see fit. This method was tried a few years back and it failed when it was put to a statewide vote.

I'd like to see the second method tried again with a better informational/marketing campaign. I don't know if it would succeed, but I think it's the best way. If we try the first method, even if we would succeed, we'd have to go through the whole process again and again for each campus closing.

I say go with the former, else the action will be seen as another scheme concocted by Imperial Cass.

*cue* Imperial March

[insane_ponderer]

Looks like the forum is gonna do some work on this issue.


http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=147535&section=news

Unequal funding strongly debated
By Amy Dalrymple, The Forum
Published Sunday, November 26, 2006


There is also a graphic on the front page, link below.
http://www.in-forum.com/articles/full_photo.cfm?id=178796

[BisonBacker]

I'm glad to see the Forum doing this to bring this issue back to the forefront but it will no doubt be met with disagreement and talk of being politically motivated ect. This issue will have no winners but only losers which is one reason why it is so contentious. Even though if or should I say when the state and the taxpayers finally act on closing one or more universities there will be no winners. This is something that should have been done long ago and for those who say it won't happen I disagree, it has to happen. Either that or the State needs to see a huge influx of population into the rural areas and we all know that isn't about to happen soon. The sooner the better as far as I'm concerened but I think it will be another 10-15 years minimum before one or more are closed. This issue would have had to been addressed sooner had ND not voted and passed on gambling and the lottery. That has brought more money into the state coffers and only extended the problem of which schools need to close. Closing universities, it will happen but how much farther behind will the schools left open be by that point?

[kchats]

Hey if Kupchella gets his wish and adds in the agricultural extension funding to NDSU's share NDSU may actually have a funding cut. *Of course he would gladly take that money.

[Shawn-O]

Hey if Kupchella gets his wish and adds in the agricultural extension funding to NDSU's share NDSU may actually have a funding cut. *Of course he would gladly take that money.

What's it like to live with that much hatred and jealousy in your heart each day, Jerome?

[kchats]

Pretty good normally Shawn. *The article quotes your buddy Kupchella as to trying to get the agricultural extension funding included in NDSU's funding. *Why not write your buddy a letter and tell him that he is once again flat out wrong? *How many more times does that idiot get to be flat out wrong before he is fired?

You UND guys are having quite a bit of fun knowing who I am aren't you? You like to point it out in all blogs and posts like it will change my opinion. Not going to happen because like NDSU I am a leader not a follower. I don't think what others think because it is convenient or easier, I have my own mind and that is why I attended NDSU.

[IowaBisonToo]

Notice who is the least funded compared to their "peers?" :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Also notice - with the exception of Whapeton - who is the most funded? Why is Valley City funded so much? :-?

[IowaBison]

the peer comparisons are pure hog wash.

(i know i've posted this before)

who are valley city state's peers?

mayville, northern state......

who are NDSU's peers?

UND, SDSU, Montana State.........


every few years the peers change, so we're trying to hit a moving target as well...................

[IowaBisonToo]

NDB - I think those peers are the schools they were being compared to. Even at that, VCSU and the smaller schools are a lot closer to equity funding compared to other small schools in other states as opposed to NDSU and, dare I even say, UND - although UND is a good ways ahead than NDSU is. Bottom line, the smaller schools are dumping millions of dollars into infrastructure for what? 800 - 1200 students? It's CRAP!

[Bison_Dan]

Hey if Kupchella gets his wish and adds in the agricultural extension funding to NDSU's share NDSU may actually have a funding cut. *Of course he would gladly take that money.

I'm pretty sure that in the Forum article that the Higher Ed Board voted to not include Ag extension funding. So that's a done deal.

[insane_ponderer]

I think another major thing to consider in this argument is the revenue generated by each university. I know NDSU does really well at generating revenue so that the state gets a good return on the money it does give to NDSU.

[westriverbison]

Hey if Kupchella gets his wish and adds in the agricultural extension funding to NDSU's share NDSU may actually have a funding cut. *Of course he would gladly take that money.

I'm pretty sure that in the Forum article that the Higher Ed Board voted to not include Ag extension funding. *So that's a done deal.


This was the battle between Chapman and the former chancelor that Chapman won in the legislature. After the session, the Board of Higher Ed decided it was in their best interest to agree with the legislature.

[bisonranch]

I don't know much about this, but does anyone know how the large number of Minnesota students at NDSU/UND effects funding? If there's an effect at all?

[DORMIE]

The Ag funding had nothing to do with the Board of Higher Education. Former Senator Gary Larson of Casselton testified that both Senate and House made it a State Law XXX-0 that you could not mix agriculture with education. Just that Kupojello thought that he rules. As far as the State Board of Higher Education, President Chapman has nothing but praide as to how NDSU has been treated by the Board. He just had a couple of issues with Potts that even he didn't understand. Look for good things in the future with equity funding.

[sambini]

Thanks Dormie+++

[BisBison]

Hey if Kupchella gets his wish and adds in the agricultural extension funding to NDSU's share NDSU may actually have a funding cut. *Of course he would gladly take that money.

What's it like to live with that much hatred and jealousy in your heart each day, Jerome? *

It's only hatred and jealousy when it is not based on fact. The fact is your guy, Kupchella does everything he can to try and keep NDSU down. Even if it does his institution no good. He should concentrate on raising the bar at his school and not worrying about being left behind by NDSU. He spends as much time trying to skrew us in state funding as getting more $$ for UND. THAT'S hatred and jealousy.

[Bison_Dan]

Hey if Kupchella gets his wish and adds in the agricultural extension funding to NDSU's share NDSU may actually have a funding cut. *Of course he would gladly take that money.

What's it like to live with that much hatred and jealousy in your heart each day, Jerome? *

It's only hatred and jealousy when it is not based on fact. The fact is your guy, Kupchella does everything he can to try and keep NDSU down. Even if it does his institution no good. He should concentrate on raising the bar at his school and not worrying about being left behind by NDSU. He spends as much time trying to skrew us in state funding as getting more $$ for UND. THAT'S hatred and jealousy.

Case in point - read the today's article in the Forum on Higher Ed. - Kupchella opposed every schools effort to add a major, etc. He's more worried about everyone else than he is about und.