NDSU and UND nickname

[BisoninHuskerland]

I just read that teams may not consider playing UND because of the name. What do others feel? Would NDSU not schedule them because of this. Why does Minnesota take such a hard stand on this. I figure if Florida would come knocking on their door they would embrace them whole heartedly. I know this is for NDSU sports but this may affect their relations with other teams that play. interesting topic.

[Mr._Bill]

IMO, this is the beginning of the end for the fighting sioux nickname. This will really hit them where it hurts, in the pocket book. If NDSU was in this same position, and major neighboring teams like MN, WI and IA would not play us, I would be urging the leaders to make a change NOW, and I mean NOW. All the major conferences who have a choice of who they play will say, thanks but no thanks to the sioux. Just a matter of time.

Why fight this thing . . . it is suicide if you ask me. I'll set the over/under for the change to "Force of the North" at 9 month. By Sept. 1st, 2007 we will see a change IMO. Why even go DI if you can't play a money game in FB or BB. You've got to change that name.

If they love their nickname so much, they better stay DII and keep a low profile. At the DI level this thing is going to blow up in their face. Kuppy is really painting the school into a corner. No win situation.

[TheDoctor]

IMO, this is the beginning of the end for the fighting sioux nickname. *This will really hit them where it hurts, in the pocket book. *If NDSU was in this same position, and major neighboring teams like MN, WI and IA would not play us, I would be urging the leaders to make a change NOW, and I mean NOW. *All the major conferences who have a choice of who they play will say, thanks but no thanks to the sioux. *Just a matter of time.

Why fight this thing . . . it is suicide if you ask me. *I'll set the over/under for the change to "Force of the North" at 9 month. *By Sept. 1st, 2007 we will see a change IMO. * Why even go DI if you can't play a money game in FB or BB. *You've got to change that name.

If they love their nickname so much, they better stay DII and keep a low profile. *At the DI level this thing is going to blow up in their face. *Kuppy is really painting the school into a corner. *No win situation.






++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +

[tony]

Just my opinion but I don't think that NDSU would ever refuse to schedule UND because of the nickname. OTOH, NDSU and other schools might not want to schedule UND because it is a potential PR nightmare, but that wouldn't be enough to stop NDSU from doing it.

Why is scheduling a school with an Indian-related mascot a potential PR nightmare? Simple: Opponents' mascots are not treated with respect. Think back to any Homecoming parade you've ever seen - how was the opponent's mascot depicted? The opponent's mascot is not sacrosanct - they aren't now and never have been. *When two teams meet there is a high probability that mascot mayhem will ensue. However, UND makes a huge, public stink every time somebody does something disrespectful involving their mascot (unless UND is making money off of licensing, of course).

NDSU has already gotten raked over the coals because of our fans' treatment of UND's mascot. Every time this controversy flairs up, UND tries to deflect blame to other schools and they use NDSU as their primary scape goat, "Hey, we are all about respect here at UND; it's those racist bastards at schools like NDSU that are the problem."

Suspend a teddy bear from a stick with a noose, and that's not news. Put stuffed bunnies through a hay baler and HBO and Bryant Gumbel aren't going to show up with a news camera to expose the racism inherent in NDSU's system. However, if some college kids yell, "Sioux suck!" at a football game or wear t-shirts with an unflattering depiction of UND's current mascot, and UND is fairly likely to hold a press conference *to express their outrage. When that happens in DI, Bryant Gumbel or somebody IS going to show up with camera crew and NDSU WILL make the national news and it WILL NOT be good.

Hehe, I'm very serious this morning... bunnies in a hay baler - man that photo cracks me up. (Edit: Um, I can't find the photo - maybe it was thresher rather than a baler)

[Mr._Bill]

I don't care what side the fence you are on, you have to admit that there is a serious lack of vision by the leaders at und. Is this MN annoucement a surprise? It certainly should not be, and I think that teams at the top levels that will play und with their current ncaa problems with be the exception not the rule. We will see.

It's not one thing at und, it's one thing after another. In the end, I think the man at the top has to go and someone with a different attitude and approach should lead the way with positive energy. This move to DI should be a positive and special time. I hope it ends up that way, but the current approach seems to be apprehension and negative energy. I think that Bunning would be glad to make changes and lead the way into DI, but others do not seem as capable.

[max_cool]

Just my opinion but I don't think that NDSU would ever refuse to schedule UND because of the nickname. OTOH, NDSU and other schools might not want to schedule UND because it is a potential PR nightmare, but that wouldn't be enough to stop NDSU from doing it.

Why is scheduling a school with an Indian-related mascot a potential PR nightmare? Simple: Opponents' mascots are not treated with respect. Think back to any Homecoming parade you've ever seen - how was the opponent's mascot depicted? The opponent's mascot is not sacrosanct - they aren't now and never have been. When two teams meet there is a high probability that mascot mayhem will ensue. However, UND makes a huge, public stink every time somebody does something disrespectful involving their mascot (unless UND is making money off of licensing, of course).

NDSU has already gotten raked over the coals because of our fans' treatment of UND's mascot. Every time this controversy flairs up, UND tries to deflect blame to other schools and they use NDSU as their primary scape goat, "Hey, we are all about respect here at UND; it's those racist bastards at schools like NDSU that are the problem."

Suspend a teddy bear from a stick with a noose, and that's not news. Put stuffed bunnies through a hay baler and HBO and Bryant Gumbel aren't going to show up with a news camera to expose the racism inherent in NDSU's system. However, if some college kids yell, "Sioux suck!" at a football game or wear t-shirts with an unflattering depiction of UND's current mascot, and UND is fairly likely to hold a press conference to express their outrage. When that happens in DI, Bryant Gumbel or somebody IS going to show up with camera crew and NDSU WILL make the national news and it WILL NOT be good.

Hehe, I'm very serious this morning... bunnies in a hay baler - man that photo cracks me up.

I would go as far as saying that big time schools won't play UND simply because of the way we (NDSU) have treated their mascot. I don't think any school wants to run the risk of negative press if their fans start chanting "Sioux Suck". It was tollerated, for the most part, between NDSU and UND because it was DII and it's looked at as a rivalry. Does anyone think that Oklahoma would want to play a school with that name, or how about a school just about anywhere in the midwest or west?

I understand that their is an attachment to the name, it's who they are, but if they can't make nice with the Sioux tribes they will always have trouble.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

I just read that teams may not consider playing UND because of the name. *What do others feel? *Would NDSU not schedule them because of this. *Why does Minnesota take such a hard stand on this. *I figure if Florida would come knocking on their door they would embrace them whole heartedly. *I know this is for NDSU sports but this may affect their relations with other teams that play. *interesting topic. *

If NDSU opts not to play UND at this stage it probably has less to do with any nickname issues than it does residual frustration over some conflict early on in NDSU's transition. It really does seem that it is time for them to change the nickname for the good of all their programs, but apparently they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep it, so we'll just have to wait and see how that turns out.

[IowaBison]

I think that if NDSU has legitimate concerns about playing a team with a Native American nickname then maybe we shouldn't play.

I don't think we should use this issue to 'stick it to 'em'.


(Note that Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa have had their policies for a while.)

[IABZN]

The “Hawkeye State” was first suggested by James G. Edwars as a tribute to indian leader Chief Black Hawk.
source: State Names, Seals, Flags, and Symbols by Benjamin F. Shearer, Barbara S. Shearer


Iwoa should Talk ;D ;D :P :-X

[NDSUFREAK10]

Well dont get too comfortable guys, because peta could be coming after us. ;D ;)

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

A couple years back PETA tried to get the University of South Carolina to change their "Gamecocks" monicker, which I thought was a little absurd.

[IowaBisonToo]

The “Hawkeye State” was first suggested by James G. Edwars as a tribute to indian leader Chief Black Hawk.
source: State Names, Seals, Flags, and Symbols by Benjamin F. Shearer, Barbara S. Shearer


Iwoa Iowa should Talk ;D ;D :P :-X
Corrected your post for you, IABZN.

They may have nicknamed the state as a tribute to a Black Hawk leader but they don't depict a Native American anywhere on their uniforms/logos. BIG difference!

I've actually never looked at like Tony just did. There could be huge implications if UND were to keep the nickname/logo and the chants started if we began competition again. The national press would have been/would be covering the current status of the law suit and here come NDSU starting the "Sioux Suck" chant. Opportunistic journalism. It's happened in the past.

Remember during the Atlanta Braves World Series runs. When they first started their long run, the "Tomohawk Chop" became an issue of huge controversy. Why? Because the team was in the spotlight. Same goes for when the Washington Redskins were doing well in the 80s/90s. If memory serves correctly, there was a large contingent of Natives that protested outside of Metrodome both during the '91 World Series and the '92 Super Bowl.

The same could happen if UND begins playing a DI schedule with the current nickname battle. Exposure to the situation is high, it is going to get a lot of press - for good or bad.

[IABZN]

The “Hawkeye State” was first suggested by James G. Edwars as a tribute to indian leader Chief Black Hawk.
source: State Names, Seals, Flags, and Symbols by Benjamin F. Shearer, Barbara S. Shearer


Iwoa Iowa should Talk ;D ;D :P :-X
Corrected your post for you, IABZN.

They may have nicknamed the state as a tribute to a Black Hawk leader but they don't depict a Native American anywhere on their uniforms/logos. *BIG difference!

I've actually never looked at like Tony just did. *There could be huge implications if UND were to keep the nickname/logo and the chants started if we began competition again. *The national press would have been/would be covering the current status of the law suit and here come NDSU starting the "Sioux Suck" chant. *Opportunistic journalism. *It's happened in the past.

Remember during the Atlanta Braves World Series runs. *When they first started their long run, the "Tomohawk Chop" became an issue of huge controversy. *Why? *Because the team was in the spotlight. *Same goes for when the Washington Redskins were doing well in the 80s/90s. *If memory serves correctly, there was a large contingent of Natives that protested outside of Metrodome both during the '91 World Series and the '92 Super Bowl.

The same could happen if UND begins playing a DI schedule with the current nickname battle. *Exposure to the situation is high, it is going to get a lot of press - for good or bad.

Thanks for my misspell. I do agree that they need to change. You need to remember the President at Iowa stated that they would play NO sports teams whose name is derived from Indians. They did not say it had to be offensive, just that it had to be! He didn't even know his own mascott was an Indian tribute until it was pointed out after the fact.

It really doesn't matter what und changes its name to, because you can create anything on a T-shirt. ;)

I agree with tony, that it is the context. We did some awful things to bunnies, mavericks, and bears in my day and nobody complained.

[tony]

Make no mistake, I'm totally serious when I say that if NDSU plays UND while they have that nickname, it is a public relations disaster waiting to happen. However, I can't see NDSU using that as a reason to stop playing UND until after we get burned again.

It isn't going to help to tell the UND folks what to do though - it'll just reinforce the bunker attitude they already have. We should be more concerned about what NDSU does.

[IowaBison]

but is it a big enough in combination with other factors for the mid-con to not admit them as members?

[bison_once]

This issue is not going away any time soon. *Until one of the three entities (UND, NCAA, Souix Tribe) concedes their current position, this will continue. *At the present it does not appear any party is going to give in.

Questions:
Why is the Fighting Sioux nickname such a big deal? *It was never a problem for decades, but now it is "hostile and abusive".

What was UND's nickname prior to the current? *

Why is it that Florida State can use a native american nickname, and other schools can't? *They are obviously on a much bigger stage than und.

I hate to agree with UND on anything, but I can't blame them for fighting to keep their nickname. *We would go absolutely nuts if the NCAA came to us and said you can't use BISON as your nickname. *OTOH UND is on the doorstep of their exploratory year and this issue is not going to make things easier for them. *The scheduling is tough enough as is.

[Junior]

This issue is not going away any time soon. *Until one of the three entities (UND, NCAA, Souix Tribe) concedes their current position, this will continue. *At the present it does not appear any party is going to give in.

Questions:
Why is the Fighting Sioux nickname such a big deal? *It was never a problem for decades, but now it is "hostile and abusive".

What was UND's nickname prior to the current? *

Why is it that Florida State can use a native american nickname, and other schools can't? *They are obviously on a much bigger stage than und.

I hate to agree with UND on anything, but I can't blame them for fighting to keep their nickname. *We would go absolutely nuts if the NCAA came to us and said you can't use BISON as your nickname. *OTOH UND is on the doorstep of their exploratory year and this issue is not going to make things easier for them. *The scheduling is tough enough as is.
Right or wrong, sometimes you just have to take your lumps and move on. *This is a no win for UND. * Sometimes you just need to take a step back and look at what is best for the greater good of the university. *Even if they win and get to keep the mascot, the NCAA and other schools are still going to treat them like the little brat university that that had to get their way. * Too many negatives an not enough positives in prolonging the issue IMO.

I never had and still don't have a problem with the mascot but it just causes too many problems in the world today. If you want to play, you have to play by the rules, even if you don't agree with them.

[sambini]

Maybe its finally time to change it. Florida State has approval from the tribe for using there name.

[IowaBison]

Questions:
Why is the Fighting Sioux nickname such a big deal? It was never a problem for decades, but now it is "hostile and abusive".


Awareness of the issue. A scholarly study released in 2003.



What was UND's nickname prior to the current?


The Flickertails.



Why is it that Florida State can use a native american nickname, and other schools can't? They are obviously on a much bigger stage than und.


This is a gray area. Florida State demonstrated to the NCAA that it had the support of Seminole Tribes.


This issue is not going away any time soon. Until one of the three entities (UND, NCAA, Souix Tribe) concedes their current position, this will continue. At the present it does not appear any party is going to give in.

The NCAA and their member institutions are not going to give in on this. Momentum against the use of Native American nicknames is only going to grow.

The sentiment of the Sioux Tribe may change, but I don't think that will be the deciding force.

Also note that the NCAA doesn't say that it wants UND to change its name. It does not want the use of such names at its events.

[IowaBisonToo]

Personally, I think if UND got rid of the word "Fighting" it might make some people a little more accepting of the name (read as getting the favor of the tribes). Whether or not this would be enough in the eyes of the NCAA, I don't know. My guess is that they know how much FSU means to college athletics and didn't want to make a big deal out of it since the Seminole tribes in Fla said it was OK. I don't think some of the other Seminole tribes were in agreement but, they don't live in Fla so didn't get a say.

Not quite sure what's going on with Illinois. I think they can keep the name "Illini" but have to get rid of the word "Fighting" and the moniker/logo.

One thing of note, though, none of these schools have the word "Fighting" in the name or is "offensive" in terms of using an adjective to describe the tribe in question. All they have is the name of the tribe.

[IowaBison]

The adjective alone is not the issue.

Removing it would not defuse the situation.

-The OK Seminoles did voice approval for the FSU moniker (there was a quick about face within about a week of the initial decision).

-There are no Illini left (if there ever were, there is some debate on if the native inhabitants were actually Illini). Illinois is voluntarily pulling any reference to Native American culture beginning next fall.

[IowaBisonToo]

So if they removed the word, "Fighting" and got the OK from the tribes, then do you think the NCAA would lighten up?

My question is, why can FSU, Utah, etc., get away with it yet others can't? Personally, I think it's a waste of valuable resources to continue fighting it but, it can get a little confusing as to why some can and others can't use certain names.

[IowaBison]

No. I don't think that would change a thing.


I strongly believe that it is only a matter of time before no school makes use of Native Americans nicknames. For a school like FSU, it will take a lot of time.

[NDSUguy]

So if they removed the word, "Fighting" and got the OK from the tribes, then do you think the NCAA would lighten up?

My question is, why can FSU, Utah, etc., get away with it yet others can't? *Personally, I think it's a waste of valuable resources to continue fighting it but, it can get a little confusing as to why some can and others can't use certain names.

Several reasons.....

1. The tribes associated with each of those schools gave the green light to be able to use that nickname.
2. These schools are widely known and are good for the NCAA.

I think that the biggest issue surrounding the Sioux is that the lakota tribe has yet to say that it's ok to use the nickname of their tribe.

[IowaBison]

And by Lakota you mean whom?

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Many issues for UND to resolve with their nickname. First of all I think that they would have to drop "Fighting" as part of the nickname and then extend the olive branch to the tribes. I'm not sure that at this point the tribes would really even care to cooperate with the university, but if they were to be given some input and also the school were to make some sort of other concessions (not really sure what these would be) then maybe the NCAA would drop its objection. Of course saying all of this is sort of like saying that Fargo could get an NFL team as long as they can build a $550 million stadium, beef up the fan base and attract someone to move there. As I posted somewhere earlier, it is time for a change, and even if they were to win their lawsuit the lack of teams willing to schedule them may force them to change the nickname at some point anyway. Messy situation to say the least.

[Jdubs21]

i jsut have a question....are u playing against a name or an group of guys that make up the team??.....its fricken teenie bopper HS drama...some people just need to grow up, its just a name, some people just blow things way outta proportion

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

To a certain extent that is true, but if the name is offensive to the tribes, then it should be a no-brainer to change it. It isn't like their nickname is "The Huskies" or something like that that people would have to be pretty stupid to be offended by. If the tribes don't want the name used, they should probably change it.

[Jdubs21]

very true but i highly doubt UND chose the nickname to offend people...i mean if anything they should be happy, teams have brought alot of pride back to the state like their girls bball, football and not to mention their hockey team

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

The nickname doesn't offend me personally, so I want to agree with you, but even if they didn't choose the name with the purpose of offending, apparently it is and I can't speak for those people, so I'll stick to saying the nickname needs to be changed until there is a percieved change in that regard.

[roadwarrior]

but is it a big enough in combination with other factors for the mid-con to not admit them as members?


The name issue will be a big hurdle to gain conference membership.

[NDSUguy]

And by Lakota you mean whom?



Here's a little bit about the "Sioux"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux

I made a mistake. I meant to say Nakota but basically the "Sioux" indian tribe is that of three different tribes - none of which are called the Sioux. The use of the word "Sioux" is a nickname of the three tribes.

The "Sioux" (Lakota, Nakota and Dakota tribes) are generally against UND using their nickname as a nickname.... :)

[WePharm]

For und's transition in d1 to be successful, they are going to need all the friends they can find. This whole mascot issue is and will be a giant drain on their programs and good will (if they have any left)
und may cry foul over the the whole mascot issue but they didn't hesitate a second to blackball NDSU
when we went D ONE!

I say as a BISON community we should keep a low profile. Let the farce of the north stew in there own
juices and slowly implode.

[IowaBison]

The name issue will be a big hurdle to gain conference membership.

I agree.

I think the University of Minnesota just upped the ante on UND. I'd be stunned if Wisconsin and Iowa don't follow suit (although it probably won't make the papers or have the impacts that Minnesota's decision does).

This is bigger than the NCAA's decision because UND has zero recourse.

[imabison]

The name issue will be a big hurdle to gain conference membership.

I agree.

I think the University of Minnesota just upped the ante on UND. *I'd be stunned if Wisconsin and Iowa don't follow suit (although it probably won't make the papers or have the impacts that Minnesota's decision does).

This is bigger than the NCAA's decision because UND has zero recourse.

I do not agree that U of M upped the anti, remember they made the decision back in 2003, and when the AD asked the committee to allow the games to be schedule he was told to reinterate the policy and not schedule the games. This decision was made 3 years ago.

[bison_once]

The solution to the problem is revert back to the old nickname.......................THE FIGHTING FLICKERTAILS!!!!!!

[IowaBison]

I do not agree that U of M upped the anti, remember they made the decision back in 2003, and when the AD asked the committee to allow the games to be schedule he was told to reinterate the policy and not schedule the games. This decision was made 3 years ago.

they enacted the policy in 2003, they revisited their interpretation this fall.

[IowaBisonToo]

When push comes to shove, it appears that none of the regional Big10 schools are going to want anything to do with UND except when forced to for hockey. Now, if UND can live with that if they want to keep the nickname, so be it (granted that is if they win their law suit). Problem is, this isn't going to stop with U of Mn, U of I, U of W. There will be other schools that will follow suit.

Gouge my eyes out but I was lurking over on the Firetrucks board. They've suggested coming up with some sort of tournament between Fla St., Illiniois, E (??) Mich, and themselves. They've termed it the "Hostile and Abusive Bowl." Niiicce. Sort of a meeting of the Native American nickname schools. IMO, a short-term solution not to mention a thumbing of their noses in the face of those schools that have strong feelings against the use of Native Amer. names as mascots.

[sambini]

It just proves they need to called FIGHTING FIRETRUCKS+++

[Mr._Bill]

When push comes to shove, it appears that none of the regional Big10 schools are going to want anything to do with UND except when forced to for hockey. *Now, if UND can live with that if they want to keep the nickname, so be it (granted that is if they win their law suit). *Problem is, this isn't going to stop with U of Mn, U of I, U of W. *There will be other schools that will follow suit.

Gouge my eyes out but I was lurking over on the Firetrucks board. *They've suggested coming up with some sort of tournament between Fla St., Illiniois, E (??) Mich, and themselves. *They've termed it the "Hostile and Abusive Bowl." *Niiicce. *Sort of a meeting of the Native American nickname schools. *IMO, a short-term solution not to mention a thumbing of their noses in the face of those schools that have strong feelings against the use of Native Amer. names as mascots.

You are forgetting about the $100 million gorilla on their back, the REA. Are they going to be able to live with never hosting any post season events? I don't think so. How will the REA group react to the need for und to change their name? It should be interesting.

You say that it is an option for UND to just keep the name and live with the consequences? I don't think so. That will be too painful in the pocketbook. There is no guarantee that the ncaa will not up the ante either. They could take the next step, which I'm sure they have queued up and ready to go.

[NDSUFREAK10]

Why is this in football?? :-?

[RedRiver]

Why is this in football?? :-?

Good question..... UND doesn't belong in Bison Football!!!!

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

suggested coming up with some sort of tournament between Fla St., Illiniois, E (??) Mich, and themselves. *They've termed it the "Hostile and Abusive Bowl."

I think it is Central Michigan that is the Chippewas. Eastern Michigan is the Eagles I believe.

Back to the topic at hand, I think that while UND wants to show people that they will not be forced to do anything by anybody, they are totally screwing themselves over by doing it. They are going to fall on their faces during the transition anyway in my slightly educated opinion, and this just makes that all the more likely. When schools are making it university policy not to schedule you or apologizing to their student body and offering community service/counselling to their fans (Dartmouth), it is time to change mascots. Is this really that important that you need to set yourself back over it?

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Why is this in football?? :-?

It should probably get moved to a different section, but as long as it is here I am going to post on it.

[bisonranch]

Wow, 3 pages of UND that hasn't turned into a flame fest.

Personally, I think the NCAA is ridiculous for allowing some schools and not others to keep their indian mascots. With the schools that can keep theirs, it's all about $$$ whether they have tribal support or not. Bad NCAA.

OTOH, UND should have been working harder to gain support from the tribes years ago, especially before the arena was on the way. You could see this storm brewing from miles away and it's here now. There could have been more PR work done in the past to prevent this. Anyway, good luck to them if they plan to stay the course, they're going to need it.

[Junior]

Wow, 3 pages of UND that hasn't turned into a flame fest. *

Personally, I think the NCAA is ridiculous for allowing some schools and not others to keep their indian mascots. *With the schools that can keep theirs, it's all about $$$ whether they have tribal support or not. *Bad NCAA.

OTOH, UND should have been working harder to gain support from the tribes years ago, especially before the arena was on the way. *You could see this storm brewing from miles away and it's here now. *There could have been more PR work done in the past to prevent this. *Anyway, good luck to them if they plan to stay the course, they're going to need it.

I don't think Ralph did UND any favors, eventhough he may have meant well. *I seem to remember the logo issue was a hot topic back when they were building the new arena. *There was talk of changing the logo then and long story short, Ralph threatened to take back something like 100 million if the mascot and logo did not remain. *I may not have all the details correct but I do remember reading a multiple page letter the Forum received about the subject. *

The the whole issue could have been resolved then, like it should have been in my opinion (change the mascot and logo), and UND would be in a much better position today. * Now, it is a PR nighmare no matter what way you look at it. *I would have to think there may be some leadership changes in the futureas a result of what is going on right now. *

[bisonmike]

It doesn't matter what (or if) they change their name to I still plan to chant that they suck. (insert name here) sucks! Always have, always will. I'm all about keeping that tradition.

[Junior]

It doesn't matter what (or if) they change their name to I still plan to chant that they suck. *(insert name here) sucks! *Always have, always will. *I'm all about keeping that tradition.

You know, I used to be a diehard chanter of that but, times change.

[NDSUFREAK10]

Why is this in football?? :-?

It should probably get moved to a different section, but as long as it is here I am going to post on it.


Well, somebody move it.

[56BISON73]

Wow, 3 pages of UND that hasn't turned into a flame fest. *

Personally, I think the NCAA is ridiculous for allowing some schools and not others to keep their indian mascots. *With the schools that can keep theirs, it's all about $$$ whether they have tribal support or not. *Bad NCAA.

OTOH, UND should have been working harder to gain support from the tribes years ago, especially before the arena was on the way. *You could see this storm brewing from miles away and it's here now. *There could have been more PR work done in the past to prevent this. *Anyway, good luck to them if they plan to stay the course, they're going to need it.

The NCAA should worry about doing the job it was intended to do and not try to dictate social conscious. Plus the whole political correctness thing makes me want to hurl. Of course thats just me. PL

[NDSUFREAK10]

and me. political correctness sucks.

[SDbison]

Wow, 3 pages of UND that hasn't turned into a flame fest. *

Personally, I think the NCAA is ridiculous for allowing some schools and not others to keep their indian mascots. *With the schools that can keep theirs, it's all about $$$ whether they have tribal support or not. *Bad NCAA.
OTOH, UND should have been working harder to gain support from the tribes years ago, especially before the arena was on the way. *You could see this storm brewing from miles away and it's here now. *There could have been more PR work done in the past to prevent this. *Anyway, good luck to them if they plan to stay the course, they're going to need it.
Finally a voice of reason. *Right on Bisonranch! *I might not like UND but this tribal name is OK for the Seminoles but not UND is bullshit! *Either you are against all tribal names or OK with them everywhere. *So Florida State bought the tribes off. *BFD! *I for one hope UND wins the lawsuit. *

SD.....ease up man....ease up..... (edit by moderator)

[SDbison]

Wow, 3 pages of UND that hasn't turned into a flame fest. *

Personally, I think the NCAA is ridiculous for allowing some schools and not others to keep their indian mascots. *With the schools that can keep theirs, it's all about $$$ whether they have tribal support or not. *Bad NCAA.

OTOH, UND should have been working harder to gain support from the tribes years ago, especially before the arena was on the way. *You could see this storm brewing from miles away and it's here now. *There could have been more PR work done in the past to prevent this. *Anyway, good luck to them if they plan to stay the course, they're going to need it.

The NCAA should worry about doing the job it was intended to do and not try to dictate social conscious. Plus the whole political correctness thing makes me want to hurl. Of course thats just me. PL
Another voice of reason. *All you PC pieces of crap go get a life. *The Dakota Indians own the Sioux name no more than I own the Vikings name. *BTW, lets talk Bison topics not this BS.

[IowaBison]

Finally a voice of reason. Right on Bisonranch! I might not like UND but this tribal name is OK for the Seminoles but not UND is bullshit! Either you are against all tribal names or OK with them everywhere. So Florida State bought the tribes off. BFD! I for one hope UND wins the lawsuit. All you liberal bastards can go find another cause to latch onto.


You know that if UND had it's sh*t together they should have done the same thing.

I believe the technical term is 'outreach'.

[IowaBison]

SDBison, you need to keep in mind that the NCAA is a membership-driven organization.

It is the members of the Executive Committee that made the decision-leaders of various member institutions.

[kchats]

The schools in the WCHA with the same policy as Minnesota should start a petition to have UND removed from the WCHA if they don't change their nickname. There are plenty of hockey schools in Minnesota; Bemidji State, Mankato State, St. Cloud and they could even add Nebraska Omaha.

[Trimmy]

Think of this as a television. If you dont like the show use common sense and turn the channel or turn the TV off. Pretty simple. PL


Moses himself couldn't deliver better advice. :)

[WYOBISONMAN]

Posts by Lakes deleted for whining about UND discussion. *Lake's.....if you don't like it, don't read it. *

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Wow, 3 pages of UND that hasn't turned into a flame fest. *

Personally, I think the NCAA is ridiculous for allowing some schools and not others to keep their indian mascots. *With the schools that can keep theirs, it's all about $$$ whether they have tribal support or not. *Bad NCAA.

OTOH, UND should have been working harder to gain support from the tribes years ago, especially before the arena was on the way. *You could see this storm brewing from miles away and it's here now. *There could have been more PR work done in the past to prevent this. *Anyway, good luck to them if they plan to stay the course, they're going to need it.

Some schools like Florida State have a lot of tribal support, to the point where the Seminole tribe was angered when faced with the possibility of FSU no longer being the Seminoles. This doesn't fall at the NCAA's feet, it is entirely UND's fault for not making peace with this issue a long time ago.

[Junior]

Another voice of reason. *All you PC pieces of crap go get a life. *The Dakota Indians own the Sioux name no more than I own the Vikings name. *BTW, lets talk Bison topics not this BS.

You sure do paint with a broad brush. *I can tell you my opinion has nothing to do with political correctness, unless you think you know my opinion better than I do. *

Quite frankly, for once this was actually a civalized discussion, well until posts like yours. *To each his own I guess.

[WYOBISONMAN]

To me it seem like a bit of a double standard. I don't see how the use of Seminole would be any less demeaning that the use of Sioux as a mascot. Personally I don't like any mascots like that, but you have to be fair and even in your approach and I don't think that the NCAA has been.

[WYOBISONMAN]

..........And..........let's keep the discussion civil ........

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

If their goal was to end the use of "abusive" nicknames then I think they've done okay. They put all the schools with native american mascots on notice and told them to prove the name wasn't abusive or they'd have to deal with the consequences. Some schools have shown that, others like UND have decided to fight them and waste money. I don't usually take the NCAA's side on anything, but in this case I think they hit the nail on the head.

[Junior]

..........And..........let's keep the discussion civil ........

...coffee hasn't kicked in yet...

[56BISON73]

Hmmmmmm was wondering if UND changed the name to the "Fighting SUE" would all the the women with that name get pissed off???? LOL PL

[Junior]

To me it seem like a bit of a double standard. * I don't see how the use of Seminole would be any less demeaning that the use of Sioux as a mascot. *Personally I don't like any mascots like that, but you have to be fair and even in your approach and I don't think that the NCAA has been.

I believe the NCAA has bigger issues to work on than the logo/mascot. But, at this point they have made their decision and member schools have to address the issue.

[IowaBisonToo]

The schools in the WCHA with the same policy as Minnesota should start a petition to have UND removed from the WCHA if they don't change their nickname. *There are plenty of hockey schools in Minnesota; Bemidji State, Mankato State, St. Cloud and they could even add Nebraska Omaha.
KC, Mn St - Mankato and St Cloud State ARE in the WCHA. I highly doubt you could get enough support to oust the sue from the conference unless it was unanimous and then I don't even know if that's possible. Don't know the conferences by-laws and am not about to read them as I could care less.

I think not scheduling und in FB, MBB, WBB, Swimming, Track & Field, etc., will be a big enough blow to the Farce of the North to get them to think a little bit - of course that's the extent of their thought process up there - a little bit.

[IowaBisonToo]

Hmmmmmm was wondering if UND changed the name to the "Fighting SUE" would all the the women with that name get pissed off???? LOL PL
That's funny stuff for this early in the morning, 56/73. :D

[IowaBisonToo]

I agree with you, WYO but, the NCAA is about money and what the schools can do for the association. FSU, Utah and others are big enough to warrant stirring the pot in those communities/states. Illinois is a big-time school but, they had the word "Fighting" in their nickname. They had to deal with it. I think that is a major issue as to why the NCAA is allowing schools like FSU and Utah to keep their names (along with permission from certain tribes).

Whether this is right or wrong isn't the issue at hand and it's not going to change as the NCAA is a members only association. Kind of like Lakes - if you don't like something, you don't have to be part of it. ;)

[56BISON73]

Hmmmmmm was wondering if UND changed the name to the "Fighting SUE" would all the the women with that name get pissed off???? LOL PL
That's funny stuff for this early in the morning, 56/73. :D

Yeah it surprised me too as Iam usually brain dead at this hour unless Im hunting or fishing. Where you from in Iowa? PL

[IowaBisonToo]

Hmmmmmm was wondering if UND changed the name to the "Fighting SUE" would all the the women with that name get pissed off???? LOL PL
That's funny stuff for this early in the morning, 56/73. :D

Yeah it surprised me too as Iam usually brain dead at this hour unless Im hunting or fishing. Where you from in Iowa? PL
North of Sioux City but (disclaimer), I'm a MN transplant.

[THEsocalledfan]

Hmmmmmm was wondering if UND changed the name to the "Fighting SUE" would all the the women with that name get pissed off???? LOL PL

I think they should do this, then have a guy cross dress as a hooker to be the mascot. I think they would then be successful in piss%ng off every special interest group in America!

[Bison_Backer]

Well dont get too comfortable guys, because peta could be coming after us. ;D ;)



This is the same group that wanted U of Arizona to change their name for because they were making fun of Mentally disturbed Cougars, beside Why would "People who Eat and Torture Animals" worry about us I mean Jessica Simpson Said she wouldn't eat Buffalo Wings on National T.V. thats enough publicity.

[56BISON73]

Heres a pretty good article. PL

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/29/sports/ncaafootball/29seminoles.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

[NorthernBison]

The thing that I found most interesting in the article is the comment that the President of FSU went to the tribal council and told them that if they didn't approve of the university using the name, that the university would drop the name. I wonder if the same offer has been made to the tribe(s) in ND?

[56BISON73]

The thing that I found most interesting in the article is the comment that the President of FSU went to the tribal council and told them that if they didn't approve of the university using the name, that the university would drop the name. *I wonder if the same offer has been made to the tribe(s) in ND?

The article also mentioned in so many words that the Seminoles were business savy. They realize that it only helps in the marketing of their businesses etc.
I also liked the comment from the student. She really hit the nail on the head IMO. PL

[Hammersmith]

Heres a pretty good article. PL

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/29/sports/ncaafootball/29seminoles.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
My impression of FSU through that article is one of intelligent and forward-thinking administrations. They involved the Seminole tribe in decisions long before the NCAA ruling and created a basis of communication and trust that bore fruit. Perhaps the NCAA hasn't handled this situation perfectly, but it has brought to light which universities have healthy relationships with the tribes they purport to honor and which do not.

[IowaBison]

Heres a pretty good article. PL

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/29/sports/ncaafootball/29seminoles.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
My impression of FSU through that article is one of intelligent and forward-thinking administrations.


Hence the use of the word 'ain't'?

:)

[Hammersmith]

Heres a pretty good article. PL

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/29/sports/ncaafootball/29seminoles.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
My impression of FSU through that article is one of intelligent and forward-thinking administrations.


Hence the use of the word 'ain't'?

:)

There's dumb and then there's folksy. I choose to believe he was being folksy. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Nice catch though. :)

[NorthernBison]

The differences in the relationships with the tribes is striking. FSU had the kind of relationship with the Florida Seminole Tribe where their administration was able to go to the Tribal Leadership and say "if you don't like what we are doing, we'll stop right now"

I don't think Kupchella, Strinden, or anybody else at UND would have dared to lay the same offer on the table at either Spirit Lake or Standing Rock. They've been asked for support, but I don't think the Tribes have ever been given veto power.

I still think that, ultimately, the only hope of retaining the nickname rests in getting the kind of Tribal support the FSU has. Time will tell.

[sambini]

I believe the Florida tribe just bought Hard Rock cafes?

[56BISON73]

I believe the Florida tribe just bought Hard Rock cafes?

Yes they did. PL

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Their spokesman said something to the extent of "we are going to buy back Manhattan one hamburger at a time." Kind of ridiculous.

[sambini]

They just might.... because as Lonely Griz says all they have is time...

[56BISON73]

They just might.... because as Lonely Griz says all they have is time...

They have a TON of money and alot of politicians in their pocket. For an example look how they changed the fishing regs in MN. Also they are challenging the rights of property owners.
It was one of the reasons we didnt buy land around Lake Mille Lacs awhile back. PL

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Well, they can do whatever they want with their money I guess, I just thought it was a sort of odd pairing.

[imabison]

The differences in the relationships with the tribes is striking. FSU had the kind of relationship with the Florida Seminole Tribe where their administration was able to go to the Tribal Leadership and say "if you don't like what we are doing, we'll stop right now"

I don't think Kupchella, Strinden, or anybody else at UND would have dared to lay the same offer on the table at either Spirit Lake or Standing Rock. They've been asked for support, but I don't think the Tribes have ever been given veto power.

I still think that, ultimately, the only hope of retaining the nickname rests in getting the kind of Tribal support the FSU has. Time will tell.

Maybe a new beginning at that school up north "how about the "Englestads Idiots" Catchy don't yah think. Someone else came up with this, and its sounded pretty good.

[THEsocalledfan]

[quote author=NorthernBison link=1166597289/75#79 date=1167430598]
Maybe a new beginning at that school up north "how about the "Englestads Idiots" *Catchy don't yah think. *Someone else came up with this, and its sounded pretty good.

Not sure of many Universities that would turn down $200,000,000, so I think that is a tad unfair. Anyone who tells me they would on principle I think is deluding themselves based on irrational hatred of UND.

Hostile and abusive my %ss.......

[TheDoctor]

The differences in the relationships with the tribes is striking. *FSU had the kind of relationship with the Florida Seminole Tribe where their administration was able to go to the Tribal Leadership and say "if you don't like what we are doing, we'll stop right now"

I don't think Kupchella, Strinden, or anybody else at UND would have dared to lay the same offer on the table at either Spirit Lake or Standing Rock. *They've been asked for support, but I don't think the Tribes have ever been given veto power.

I still think that, ultimately, the only hope of retaining the nickname rests in getting the kind of Tribal support the FSU has. *Time will tell.

Maybe a new beginning at that school up north "how about the "Englestads Idiots" *Catchy don't yah think. *Someone else came up with this, and its sounded pretty good.



;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[NDSU1980]

One thing I don't understand on the UND name lawsuit is why it's being heard in GF? That's hardly a neutral site. Judge Lawrence Janke has already shown bias by granting an injuction and stalling the lawsuit out until next December. Does anyone think UND could even remotely lose this lawsuit when it's on their homecourt? Anyone want to bet the judge went to UND law school?

[roadwarrior]

Yes, the judge is a UND grad, as are the lawyers on BOTH sides of the case.

[Stromer]

One thing I don't understand on the UND name lawsuit is why it's being heard in GF? *That's hardly a neutral site. *Judge Lawrence Janke has already shown bias by granting an injuction and stalling the lawsuit out until next December. *Does anyone think UND could even remotely lose this lawsuit when it's on their homecourt? *Anyone want to bet the judge went to UND law school?

So just cause someone went to school at UND, they support the name? Boy try telling that to the profs who work at UND that are against the name and the few Native American students who are against it that attend. Nobody knows what the judges position on the name is. There is a slight bias in every court case and I think it will be handled fairly. It seems like the NCAA dosesn't really care.

[imabison]

One thing I don't understand on the UND name lawsuit is why it's being heard in GF? That's hardly a neutral site. Judge Lawrence Janke has already shown bias by granting an injuction and stalling the lawsuit out until next December. Does anyone think UND could even remotely lose this lawsuit when it's on their homecourt? Anyone want to bet the judge went to UND law school?

So just cause someone went to school at UND, they support the name? Boy try telling that to the profs who work at UND that are against the name and the few Native American students who are against it that attend. Nobody knows what the judges position on the name is. There is a slight bias in every court case and I think it will be handled fairly. It seems like the NCAA dosesn't really care.

I don't think Bias will have anything to do with it. The president of the NCAA has already said its going to the Supreme Court if they lose. Can the the supports of the school up north afford it.

[Tatanka]

If they keep getting the state AG and his staff to chip in for free (the AG himself doesn't log his time spent on this case or bill out said time) or close to free (avg $53/hr for staff time), then yes, I believe they can come up with the cash.

All this but "it's not costing the taxpayers a dime". Somebody tell me where I can retain a law firm for $53/hr. Hell, in the real world you can't sniff a lawyer's fart for $53 an hour.

I call shenannegans.