10 years down the road

[WePharm]

With the latest enrollment figures showing another record winter enrollment, I was curious where NDSU might be in 10 years. While the number of college age students will drop significantly state & region wide SU is located in a growing community. What's your thoughts? What brick & mortar projects are in the works? Will more classes be located downtown? Would like to know everyone's take on this. I'm really democratic! I would make a great sportswriter ;D ;D ;D

Remember the end to our transition wilderness is not that far off!

[2006gwfcchamps]

I don't think 12k full time undergrads is unreasonable by 2010.

We need to start working on more dorm and class space.


As I said in another thread, the current football practice fields would be a great place to build another F court type of establishment. And with the 2nd LLC building going up, that should give us enough beds to pump up total enrollment to 15k.

[insane_ponderer]

2006gwfc,

Have to remember the graduate students too. They are a very important factor in the growth of the campus and hopefully we can continue down the growth path that Chapman has led us on. Undergrads are great and I would love to see us around that 12k full time range, but we really need to beef up our graduate programs to take the next step.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Well I did say total enrollment 15k. That's 3k undergrads.


If we made the LLC complex (both buildings) strictly for grads and build a new F court type complex on the current football practice feilds and made that and the current F court for undergrads, then I think we'd be in business as far as beds go.


Then we need to work on class, lab, and office space.

[TheBisonator]

Well I did say total enrollment 15k. That's 3k undergrads.


If we made the LLC complex (both buildings) strictly for grads and build a new F court type complex on the current football practice feilds and made that and the current F court for undergrads, then I think we'd be in business as far as beds go.


Then we need to work on class, lab, and office space.

Exactly what I was gonna say. Took the words right outta my mouth. ;)

15,000 by 2010 would be a good number to hold steady for 10 years or so, then we could make a push to 20,000 around 2020 or so as we consider going I-A in football.

[Hammersmith]

12k undergraduates by 2010 seems very achievable. 3k graduate students by 2010 might be a stretch, even though I suggested that in another thread. Here are the last five years of numbers:


YearUndergradGradGrad %
2002
9874127211.4%
2003
10157146612.6%
2004
10549147712.3%
2005
10496160313.2%
2006
10596166213.6%

20% grad students should be a high priority, and I think 25% should be considered if we want to become a serious research university. Some posters have talked about the Mountain West as a possible long-term home. Those schools consider themselves to be some of the elite academic institutions west of the Mississippi. If we want to have a serious chance of an invite, we will need to make ourselves look good in academics as well as athletics.

Regarding the LLC's: keep them as 4th/5th year housing and eventually renovate Stockbridge into graduate student apartments. Kind of a Bison Court extension(hey, they've already matched the roofs). Reed/Johnson and the Weibles will need to be renovated someday, so make them the athletic dorms. After the reno, they'd be nicer than Stockbridge is now and closer to the BSA and the RDC. It almost looks like two more LLC's could be added to the north of the current and future ones. I wonder if that, and a new dining center, is in the mid-range plans?

As for F-Court and UV, anyone got a little spare dynamite? Okay that might be a bit harsh for F-Court 2, but the rest would make a very pretty dust cloud.

Don't put a new football practice area exactly on Dacotah Field. Move it all a bit west to cover the tennis courts. That would leave enough room for some BSA expansions and new tennis courts could be added near the current southwest corner of the BSA. They could be outdoors to begin with, but if a tennis team is added later, they could be enclosed fairly easily(two sides would already abut the BSA).

A new, large, science classroom/lab building would look nice on the site of Shepperd Arena and the green space to the south. If replacement parking space was available, a new engineering building would work on the north side of Ehly Hall or the green space south of the pay lot. I would hate to see Putnam Hall removed, but the library needs a major addition/renovation and it's in the way. It either needs to be moved, or any library addition will have to be designed to wrap around it. I personally would like to see it restored to its original interior and converted into a NDSU historical museum that includes the Center for Regional Studies.

My dream would be for the music and theatre departments to join the visual art department downtown in one or two new buildings constructed just to the north of the old Northern School Supply building. One of the nearby apartment buildings could be bought and renovated into a housing complex with limited food service on the ground floor. From my point of view, it would be very nice if the architechure program would split from the College of E&A and be combined with the art programs to form a new College of Art and Architecture. This last paragraph really feels like a pipe dream to me and I think it has almost no chance of happening in the next ten years, if ever.

[BisBison]

You know Hammer, if you looked at the dreams of SU fans and grads 10 years ago, I doubt if any one of them would have reached where we are at right now. You may look at your post in 5 years and think "that was too easy".

[Hammersmith]

You know Hammer, if you looked at the dreams of SU fans and grads 10 years ago, I doubt if any one of them would have reached where we are at right now. You may look at your post in 5 years and think "that was too easy".
Sorry. I wasn't clear with my last sentence. Fixed now.

(I figure that last paragraph would cost about $100M to do right. That's why I think it's a pipe dream - I'm no Engelstad.)

[IowaBison]

Quality, not quantity.

[2006gwfcchamps]

20% grad students should be a high priority and I think 25% should be considered if we want to become a serious research university.

Well, first of all, I think we are pretty serious about research already.

Carnegie already classifies NDSU as high research activity. The only higher classification is very high research activity. Not sure how they determine that.

20% at 15k total would be 12k under 3k grad

25% at 16k total would be 12k under 4k grad or 15k under 5k grad at 20k total.


Not sure why you'd need to be at either number to be considered a serious research university, but I don't think more grad students hurt.


The only thing about them is that I don't think they pay as much tuition. I think some may even get paid to be grad students.


Undergrads is where you fill the coffers.


Those schools consider themselves to be some of the elite academic institutions west of the Mississippi.

Just for comparison, the public schools in the MWC:

Colorado State 19k FTU (very high research activity)
San Diego State 21k FTU (high research activity)
UNLV 16k FTU (high research activity)
New Mexico 15k FTU (very high research activity)
Utah 23k FTU (very high research activity)
Wyoming 7k FTU (high research activity)

NDSU 10k FTU

(FTU = full time undergrads)

So other than Wyoming we're pretty small compared to most of the MWC.


Reed/Johnson and the Weibles will need to be renovated someday, so make them the athletic dorms.

Those probably have 1.2k students living them now (300 each). There's no way we'd renovate that so 100 freshman athletes could live in them.


It almost looks like two more LLC's could be added to the north of the current and future ones. I wonder if that, and a new dining center, is in the mid-range plans?

Here's the SE intersection of 18th st and 15 ave N:

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2913/llcty2.jpg

There certainly is room, but you'd completely take away that parking lot. That would put a lot of stress on the HR lot, assuming that's where they'd park.

You'd have to build a ramp at the HR lot.



That would leave enough room for some BSA expansions and new tennis courts could be added near the current southwest corner of the BSA. They could be outdoors to begin with, but if a tennis team is added later, they could be enclosed fairly easily(two sides would already abut the BSA).

I agree with this, but there would probably be student complains of no tennis courts during the construction.

I hope NDSU doesn't add tennis.


If replacement parking space was available, a new engineering building would work on the north side of Ehly Hall or the green space south of the pay lot.

Why not build a ramp at the pay lot?



I would hate to see Putnam Hall removed, but the library needs a major addition/renovation and it's in the way.

Do kids even read books these days?

Seems like we need more wireless internet portals and computer clusters, if anything.

Not more books.


Sorry, but a library renovation seems like a pork project in the digital age.

[IowaBisonToo]

Hammer - good post but, I don't think a new science building will go where Sheppard is. In fact, I think you're going to be hard pressed to get that thing torn down - even though it doesn't belong in what will someday be the middle of campus. This is also probably the reason why you don't have anything being built South of Sheppard - to close to an animal show ring and meat processing facility.

I believe the new science building (Biology probably) will go W of where the LLCs will be. At least that is where my advisor said they had planned on it going someday.

To add to the dorm suggestions, I don't think you could convince undergrads to walk more than what they already do when it comes to walking to classes in the winter. The closer you can make undergrad dorms to the middle of campus, the better off you're going to be. This is important to kids when they're deciding where to go to school. In fact, for most grad students I'd say that is the least of their worries. What you will find in the current Univ Village are mostly international graduate students and they really could care less where they live. Many of the grad students that are US Citizens find housing off campus. In fact, while I was in grad school, I think I was one of maybe 5 out of ~35 in the department that lived in university housing. Keep the undergrads close, they're still lazy. ;)

[Hammersmith]

Hammer - good post but, I don't think a new science building will go where Sheppard is. *In fact, I think you're going to be hard pressed to get that thing torn down - even though it doesn't belong in what will someday be the middle of campus. *This is also probably the reason why you don't have anything being built South of Sheppard - to close to an animal show ring and meat processing facility.

I believe the new science building (Biology probably) will go W of where the LLCs will be. *At least that is where my advisor said they had planned on it going someday.

To add to the dorm suggestions, I don't think you could convince undergrads to walk more than what they already do when it comes to walking to classes in the winter. *The closer you can make undergrad dorms to the middle of campus, the better off you're going to be. *This is important to kids when they're deciding where to go to school. *In fact, for most grad students I'd say that is the least of their worries. *What you will find in the current Univ Village are mostly international graduate students and they really could care less where they live. *Many of the grad students that are US Citizens find housing off campus. *In fact, while I was in grad school, I think I was one of maybe 5 out of ~35 in the department that lived in university housing. *Keep the undergrads close, they're still lazy. ;)
I've always wondered about Shepperd; is there some emotional or traditional reason why it should stay? I've seen several posters make comments like your's and I've never really understood them. I'm beginning to think that I'm missing something.

I completely agree with your comments about dorms. If residence density could be increased on campus, I wouldn't mind F-Court and UV being leveled and the land sold or leased to developers. If I had a couple of billion lying around, I'd divide the campus into quadrants and move all residence and student services(Union, Lib., Well. Cent., etc) into one of them. In any case, the LLC's are about as far away from the center of campus as any new dorms should be.

gwfc2006champs, you're right with that sat. photo. I was using the campus map, and the parking lot size/shape was different.
I also don't know if you're aware, but the Carnegie Classifications were changed a year ago and were broken up into different sub-categories. Since the ratio of undergrads to grads is an indicator of the intensity of the college, that has now become a sub-category. NDSU's profile(based on 2004 information) is:


ClassificationCategory
1. Undergraduate Instructional Program:Prof+A&S/SGC: Professions plus arts & sciences, some graduate coexistence
2. Graduate Instructional Program:CompDoc/NMedVet: Comprehensive doctoral (no medical/veterinary)
3. Enrollment Profile:VHU: Very high undergraduate
4. Undergraduate Profile:FT4/S/HTI: Full-time four-year, selective, higher transfer-in
5. Size and Setting:L4/R: Large four-year, primarily residential
6. Basic:RU/H:Research Universities (high research activity)


To improve #1, graduate degrees would need to be offered in more than half of the undergrad fields. Also, an attempt could be made to balance professional programs with arts & sciences. Currently, NDSU's professional programs make up 60-79% of all majors. Equalizing those numbers would not necessarily make NDSU a better institution, but a more balanced one.

#2 could only be improved by adding a med, dental or vet school. The comprehensive label means that neither humanites/social sciences, science/tech/eng/math, nor professional grad degrees are dominant. We currently(2004) offer fewer than 50 grad degrees.

#3 means that graduate students make up less than 10% of the FTE. We would need 10-24% to get to the next level; 'High Undergraduate'.

#4 means that at least 80% of the students are full time(the highest level), the incoming freshmen rank in the middle two-fifths(increasing that to the top one-fifth will change the classification to 'more selective'), and more than 20% of the incoming class are transfers(dropping that below 20% will change the class. to 'lower transfer-in'). Actually, NDSU is between 20-25% transfers.

10,000 students puts you in the 'large' category for #5(the highest), and 'residential' means that 25-49% of undergrads live on campus. We actually have between 25-30% of the undergrads on campus. Going beyond 50% would be 'highly residential'.

The only way to improve #6 would be to move from 'high research' to 'very high research'. This one's complicated and the Carnegie website doesn't really explain it.


I really don't know why I wrote all that, but I guess after mastering the NCAA reclassification rules, I needed a new challenge. :) :)

[westriverbison]

Sheperd arena does have a lot of sentimental value to most An. Sci. grads but I have heard it is pretty certain that a new facility is in the works, probably 2010. Then Sheperd will be torn down. Sheperd had outlived it's usefullness, the ag majors need a better facility, just like the rest of the sciences.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Agreed. I think that what needs to happen is that the university needs to go about replacing and upgrading most of their current science and math related facilities and then start adding new classroom space once this is accomplished.

[IowaBisonToo]

But holy crap! Of all the buildings on campus that need to be upgraded, I would think Sheppard has to be on the bottom of the list yet to say a replacement by 2010???? That's just sick and wrong on so many levels.

[westriverbison]

Building a new an sci facility on the edge of campus and razing Sheperd would not only improve the classroom, animal handling, and meats lab but would open up a large space in the middle of campus for a facility that would have use for a larger number of students.

Sheperd is a piece of sh*t. Compare it to facilities at Neb, KState, Wyo, CSU. It has a crappy classroom, the meats lab is fair at best. It needs to go.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Keep Shepperd. *It is a part of campus history and many of us have fond memories of Little I, etc. *I would be opposed to tearing it down........But build a new facility too....I know both would be used.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

But holy crap! *Of all the buildings on campus that need to be upgraded, I would think Sheppard has to be on the bottom of the list yet to say a replacement by 2010???? *That's just sick and wrong on so many levels.

I'll agree that Sheppard should not be one of the priorities. *Top priorities: Biology, Physics, Biology, Math and Biology. *The mathematics and physical sciences departments are in desperate need of upgrading. *I heard the other day that the math department is reallocating funds to replace lecturers (math instructors with Masters degrees) with full-time professors, so that at least is a step in the right direction.

[mebison]

The only thing about them is that I don't think they pay as much tuition. I think some may even get paid to be grad students.


Undergrads is where you fill the coffers.



I don't recall exactly the details for NDSU (and it will vary greatly by department within NDSU since I don't think they have a collective bargaining agreement), but for engineering at least, most schools offer in-state tuition for graduate students with research assistantships and then pay either ~$14,000+tuition or ~$20,000/yr and you pay your own tuition.

Also, Undergrads do not fill the coffers...research fills the coffers. Most professors are expected to pull in enough grant $$$ to pay their own salary by the time they've been here a few years. Certainly 12,000 students x $10,000/yr = $120 million per year seems like a lot, but I have to imagine that's pretty small on the total balance sheet of a major university? Pure speculation there, does anyone know what kind of total money passes through NDSU in a given year?

[IowaBison]

But holy crap! Of all the buildings on campus that need to be upgraded, I would think Sheppard has to be on the bottom of the list yet to say a replacement by 2010???? That's just sick and wrong on so many levels.

I'll agree that Sheppard should not be one of the priorities. Top priorities: Biology, Physics, Biology, Math and Biology. The mathematics and physical sciences departments are in desperate need of upgrading. I heard the other day that the math department is reallocating funds to replace lecturers (math instructors with Masters degrees) with full-time professors, so that at least is a step in the right direction.

There is a capital improvements bill at the legislature that would provide $5 million to finish the remodel of Minard.

[IowaBison]

I don't recall exactly the details for NDSU (and it will vary greatly by department within NDSU since I don't think they have a collective bargaining agreement), but for engineering at least, most schools offer in-state tuition for graduate students with research assistantships and then pay either ~$14,000+tuition or ~$20,000/yr and you pay your own tuition.

Compensation for research students is all over the place.

Minnesota offered me $20k and dental! fricken dental! six years ago.

When I left Iowa State my major professor offered to more than double my stipend to near $40,000/year.

Then there are liberal arts majors at Ivy Schools that get a tuition waiver and $12,000 no benefits. That would be hell if you were going to school at Columbia.

[westriverbison]

But holy crap! *Of all the buildings on campus that need to be upgraded, I would think Sheppard has to be on the bottom of the list yet to say a replacement by 2010???? *That's just sick and wrong on so many levels.

I'll agree that Sheppard should not be one of the priorities. *Top priorities: Biology, Physics, Biology, Math and Biology. *The mathematics and physical sciences departments are in desperate need of upgrading. *I heard the other day that the math department is reallocating funds to replace lecturers (math instructors with Masters degrees) with full-time professors, so that at least is a step in the right direction.


Razing Sheppard will open up a spot on mid-campus for a building for Biology, Physics, etc........................

[IowaBison]

Razing Sheppard will piss off about 10,000 alumni.

[pmp6nl]

I think the first thing that needs to be done is a renovation of Minard. Everyone probably has a class in there at one time or another and it is really behind on the times.


Additionally if you haven't heard a second LLC is going to be built soon.


A new library is already in the works ;) Student Government is pushing for a new one. A feasibility study is being done. Something will be done with the library situation!

[2006gwfcchamps]

What does the library need that it doesn't have?


It can't be books.

[Hammersmith]

What does the library need that it doesn't have?


It can't be books.
Uhhh....maybe space? Uhhh...maybe more reference materials?

Dude, only a fraction of historical, scholarly material is available in an on-line format. Even if you can get it that way, you still need to pay for it. There's a great choice: pay for the electronic version of a text you already own, or pay to have the text converted to an electronic format. In most cases, that's a waste of limited resources. If a new resource work is available in an electronic format, then fine, get it that way, but don't waste money duplicating already purchased works or converting works that are not available in an electronic format.

The NDSU library was already beyond its capacity before the basement flooded a few years back. After the flood, the insurance company limited what could be stored in the basement levels. Everything down there now must be easily replaced(like computers), be able to be removed upstairs in a short timespan(like 15 minutes), or be stored above a certain height. That rearranging of materials has packed the upper levels even more. Additionally, I believe a large portion of the reference periodical section is still stored off-site at the old 19th Ave Sunmart. Don't you think it would be nice to get some of those works back on-campus for easy access?*

How about comfort? The current library doesn't have much of it. If you want students to use it, it must be someplace they like to be. The post-flood renovations and the new reading room have helped matters, but much more needs to be done to turn that place from a dungeon into something hospitible. I would really like the library to be centrally located on campus(green spaces by Shepperd, IACC or pay lot), but that's just unrealistic. Whatever happens, a well-stocked library(with printed materials) will always be a major part of all quality universities.


*I realize that some of the periodicals and historical documents will never be able to return to general circulation due to the water and biological damage they received during the flood. There's no reason why a clean room couldn't be added to the library during an expansion, though.

[pmp6nl]

What does the library need that it doesn't have?


It can't be books.

Hammersmith has it all right!

---
The lack of books is one of the biggest things. If you compare the number of books, and related resources, to other Universities we are really in pretty bad shape.

The hours are also terrible, they provide little time for students to actually use the facilities. A new library will also offer much more space for studying and student use etc. If you compare us to other Universities you will surely see what is lacking.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Maybe we should do a student survey to see how much the student body uses it.


If students aren't going to use it, it seems like pork to me.

[Hammersmith]

Maybe we should do a student survey to see how much the student body uses it.

If students aren't going to use it, it seems like pork to me.
That wouldn't necessarily give you a good indication of the value of a library. If a facility is poorly designed and difficult to use, those that should benefit from it never learn how. I think that's one of the problems with the NDSU Library. There are so many design flaws in that place, I could write a book on it(no pun intended). A university's library should be the main location where students go to study. In doing so, they should end up spending hours upon hours in the place; sometimes long stretches in one sitting. To make this appealing, the building should be designed for comfort and aesthetics. Can anyone honestly say the NDSU Library succeeds in this way?

Look at the main staircase. It's walled-off in the middle of the north half of the building. Not only is the staircase itself unattractive, it breaks up the openness of the front half of the building on every floor. If it had been built as an open staircase and moved to an outer wall against a bank of windows, it could have been an architectual focal point that enhanced the space rather than restricted it. My biggest pet peeve of building design is in the windows. The only windows meant for students in the NDSU Library are the ones along 12th Ave. Great, you can see traffic and decrepit rental houses. Yay. From the site of the library, there are fantastic views of Putnam, Old Main, South Engineering and Minard, and a decent 3/4 view of Morrill. That's over half of NDSU's architectually interesting old buildings and not one of them is featured from any of the main study areas. That, my friends, is the definition of design stupidity.

There are many more problems with the library's design, but those should highlight the situation. Current students don't use the place because it's uncomfortable and depressing. Make it appealing and things will change dramatically. Just make sure to make it big enough; if the study areas are attractive but crowded, you've just created a new set of problems.

[roadwarrior]

Some of the problems listed above with the library are due to the fact that the north half of the building is decades older than the south half. Not too much was done to the older portion of the building when the addition was put on the south side.

[2006gwfcchamps]

That wouldn't necessarily give you a good indication of the value of a library. If a facility is poorly designed and difficult to use, those that should benefit from it never learn how. I think that's one of the problems with the NDSU Library. There are so many design flaws in that place, I could write a book on it(no pun intended). A university's library should be the main location where students go to study. In doing so, they should end up spending hours upon hours in the place; sometimes long stretches in one sitting. To make this appealing, the building should be designed for comfort and aesthetics. Can anyone honestly say the NDSU Library succeeds in this way?

Look at the main staircase. It's walled-off in the middle of the north half of the building. Not only is the staircase itself unattractive, it breaks up the openness of the front half of the building on every floor. If it had been built as an open staircase and moved to an outer wall against a bank of windows, it could have been an architectual focal point that enhanced the space rather than restricted it. My biggest pet peeve of building design is in the windows. The only windows meant for students in the NDSU Library are the ones along 12th Ave. Great, you can see traffic and decrepit rental houses. Yay. From the site of the library, there are fantastic views of Putnam, Old Main, South Engineering and Minard, and a decent 3/4 view of Morrill. That's over half of NDSU's architectually interesting old buildings and not one of them is featured from any of the main study areas. That, my friends, is the definition of design stupidity.

There are many more problems with the library's design, but those should highlight the situation. Current students don't use the place because it's uncomfortable and depressing. Make it appealing and things will change dramatically. Just make sure to make it big enough; if the study areas are attractive but crowded, you've just created a new set of problems.


I think the internet has changed things way too much.


I think students would rather study in their dorm rooms than walk a mile down to the library in -20 weather. You get the same internet in your dorm that you'd get at the library.

With google and wikipedia, seriously, why would a person take the time to search the database to find a book, if it's in, and then manually read the book vs. searching for the word of phrase you want with a computer?


I also think it's weak to say that students would use it more if you made it nicer. Maybe they would but maybe they wouldn't. Seems like a waste of money to build it and then wait and see if they will use it.


I'd rather see a survey done to see if they would use it. If you wanted, you could include pictures of architect drawings so they could see what the new library would be like.

[Bisonguy]

Google is making the libraries of Harvard, Stanford, University of Michigan, University of Oxford, and the the New York Public Library available online.


There are also new products, such as the Sony Reader that are making the world need a little less paper.

[2006gwfcchamps]

I guess I wouldn't object to a "student study center" or something of the like with computer clusters and perhaps a home for a tutoring service, or something.


But that almost seems exactly the same as the student union.

[Hammersmith]

I guess I wouldn't object to a "student study center" or something of the like with computer clusters and perhaps a home for a tutoring service, or something.


But that almost seems exactly the same as the student union.
It's better to split the two into seperate buildings. The student union should be for socializing, recreation, events, food, etc. Mixing studying into that is counterproductive. Regarding the library, I have no problems with adding technology, in fact I'm something of a tech-freak myself, but the campus and the students lose something if all studying and research is done holed up in dorm rooms. The best studying is done in groups with all the necessary resources available at hand. That's what a good university library provides. There need to be places on campus for students to live(LLC/BC), to eat, to exercise(WC), to socialize(MU), and to study. NDSU has made, or is making, strides in all of the first ones; now it's time to address the last.

BTW, I mentioned earlier that I wish the library was more centrally located; that was because I also think it's silly that students have to truck all the way across campus to get there. However, I don't know if it's finacially possible to build an entirely new structure rather than adding on to the current one. We might be stuck with the current location. The only thing to do is make a renovated facility desirable enough to make the journey. The other good option is a large number of smaller, department-specific libraries with decent computer access, staff, hours, and individual and group study spaces. I could get behind that as well.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

I think that building a new library or at the very least upgrading the current one is a necessity. the current facility leaves a lot to be desired.

[2006gwfcchamps]

BTW, I mentioned earlier that I wish the library was more centrally located; that was because I also think it's silly that students have to truck all the way across campus to get there.

This is probably the main thing against the library.


No way are students walking from the dorms to the library in this weather.


It's too bad the library and Sudro couldn't swap places.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

I made the trek down to the library just about every day, so I liked the location because most students didn't make the walk and it was a nice study environment. No need to move the library for the sake of students; the walk doesn't hurt anyone. The library really does need an upgrade though.

[2006gwfcchamps]

No need to move the library for the sake of students; the walk doesn't hurt anyone.

That's the spirit!

To hell with the student's wants. The administration will do as it damn well pleases. And if the students don't like it, who cares?



That's the attitude that sees the library with little to no interest.



The library really does need an upgrade though.

Not if the students aren't going to use it.


While we're at it, lets make a huge upgrade to Alba Bales too.

[WYOBISONMAN]

The Library at NDSU is probably one of the academic areas that is most lacking. There needs to be major upgrades for the library and I would surely be in favor of a fund drive to get that moving. A DI University needs a DI Library.......NDSU's is marginal.

[BisonCardinal]

If they tear down Sheppard Arena, where am I going to get my fix of the sweet smell of sawdust and cow poop. :D

[westriverbison]

If they tear down Sheppard Arena, where am I going to get my fix of the sweet smell of sawdust and cow poop. :D

The new animal science\equestrian arena, that's one building that won't take long to get rid of the new smell in :) :)

[2006gwfcchamps]

A DI University needs a DI Library


Does a DI university needs a DI typewriter facility too?

[IowaBison]

NDSU's library is wholly inadequate.

While electronic resources have many benefits they will never replace bound copy.

[RodentiaX1]

The idea of computers replacing libraries is like the idea of the "paperless office" - 25 years ago, we were told that computers were going to make paper obsolete at work. But offices use more paper than ever. A library isn't "pork", it's part of the core of what a university is.

[2006gwfcchamps]

While electronic resources have many benefits they will never replace bound copy.




I'm sure wood burning ovens will never be obsolete either. Too reliable. Ahh...good old reliability. We should never change things.

[2006gwfcchamps]

But offices use more paper than ever.

Offices use far less paper now than ever. Thanks to computers, there will be a day when offices literally won't need paper.


That day isn't today and probably isn't tomorrow. But in the future it will happen.

[insane_ponderer]

Yeah, I gotta say I am onboard with an upgrade for the library. Go to any decent library at a quality university and take notice of size and function. Our library has fallen below our standards and needs an update.

"If you build it they will come." and study. :)

[RodentiaX1]

Offices use far less paper now than ever. Thanks to computers, there will be a day when offices literally won't need paper.

You have got to be kidding. Have you been in an office lately? If so, have you been in offices in the past? Thanks to computers, offices use far more paper than ever before. Rather than eliminate paper, computers and printers have made it far easier to produce printed material.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Offices use far less paper now than ever. Thanks to computers, there will be a day when offices literally won't need paper.

You have got to be kidding. Have you been in an office lately? If so, have you been in offices in the past? Thanks to computers, offices use far more paper than ever before. Rather than eliminate paper, computers and printers have made it far easier to produce printed material.

Ok, they use more than in 1970. Sure.

Don't worry, the paperless solution is going to be coming at an exponentially increasing rate.

[RodentiaX1]

I'd bet that monkeys will fly out of various orafices before the paperless office comes.

[2006gwfcchamps]

I'll bet against you.

It will be here eventually.

[Junior]

I'll admit I haven't read all of this but I seem to remember a member on this board some time ago that was against libraries and said everything could be found on the internet now. *I don't remember, was it 1234???? :)

[WYOBISONMAN]

While electronic resources have many benefits they will never replace bound copy.




I'm sure wood burning ovens will never be obsolete either. Too reliable. Ahh...good old reliability. We should never change things.

Libraries are a vital part of any campus....to discount that indicates that you have no understanding of academics at a university. I agree that electronic resources will never replace bound copy as well. It seems to me the Varsity Mart is still selling texts. Each type of media has its place.....

[2006gwfcchamps]

Libraries are a vital part of any campus


You continue saying this as if I'll eventually accept your arbitrary decree.


It seems to me the Varsity Mart is still selling texts.


Book store != library.

Perhaps we should replace the library with a Barnes & Noble? Maybe then the students will actually go in there.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

But offices use more paper than ever.

Offices use far less paper now than ever. Thanks to computers, there will be a day when offices literally won't need paper.


That day isn't today and probably isn't tomorrow. But in the future it will happen.


Swing and a miss. Offices don't use less paper, and there will never come a day when physical, printed copy is totally replaced by electronic copy.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

I find it hard to understand how anyone can doubt that having a library is vital at an institution whose #1 objective is the cultivation and spreading of knowledge. *Regarding the library's location, the current location is fine and if they choose to move it, they should move it to somewhere that fits best within the framework of the campus, not necessarily closer to the dorms. *Most of the times I used the library was when I was out and about for classes and such, in which case the current location was most convenient. *Plus, if a ten minute walk is going to deter a student from using the library I can't say I'm really concerned with their using it at all.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Offices don't use less paper

Sure they do.

Environmentalism has seen to it.


there will never come a day when physical, printed copy is totally replaced by electronic copy.

Right. Wood burning ovens will never be replaced.

[2006gwfcchamps]

I find it hard to understand how anyone can doubt that having a library is vital at an institution whose #1 objective is the cultivation and spreading of knowledge.

Probably because digital knowledge is vastly superior to printed knowledge.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

I find it hard to understand how anyone can doubt that having a library is vital at an institution whose #1 objective is the cultivation and spreading of knowledge.

Probably because digital knowledge is vastly superior to printed knowledge.



Digital knowledge is faster than printed knowledge in most cases, but that in and of itself is an argument for the preservation of printed knowledge. As we all know, the first information in is not necessarily always the most accurate. Typically, it takes about two years to get a book out on a topic and that time allows for the information to be printed in said book to be verified, discredited, or have perspective applied to it. Digital information is nice for high school english students writing term papers, but in the serious academic community printed material is the standard. In some cases it is more useful to present printed materials from journals and other academic sources digitally, but physical printed material still is essential.

[Junior]

some day books may be printed on some type of digital format like a cd, or something not even invented yet, but there will still be a need for a library to store this information. It is a lot easier to find information when it is all stored in one spot.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Anyway.........I hope the Foundation looks at a fund drive to push for Library improvement.....that was what my original point was before being sidetracked by this rather strange debate......

[2006gwfcchamps]

in the serious academic community printed material is the standard.

We all know that tradition dies slow.


But this too will eventually change.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Anyway.........I hope the Foundation looks at a fund drive to push for Library improvement.....that was what my original point was before being sidetracked by this rather strange debate......

Getting back to the point at hand, I agree heartily. Junior also makes a strong point that regardless of what format the information comes in we need someplace to put it. Upgraded library definitely needed.

[Hammersmith]

At least the library was remembered when the Momentum campaign was planned. $1.5M of the $75M will be allocated for the acquisition and preservation of collections as well as improved technology. Unfortunately, it's one of three goals in Momentum that has yet to be met.


On another note:

Probably because digital knowledge is vastly superior to printed knowledge.

You continue saying this as if I'll eventually accept your arbitrary decree.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Digital is superior, whether I say so or not.

It can't be destroyed. Infinite copies can be made instantly. It can go anywhere in the world along a wire or through the air. It requires no trees be cut down.


There is no possible way you can say paper is better.

[insane_ponderer]

There is no possible way you can say paper is better.


Paper beats rock. :)

[Junior]

Digital is superior, whether I say so or not.

It can't be destroyed. Infinite copies can be made instantly. It can go anywhere in the world along a wire or through the air. It requires no trees be cut down.


There is no possible way you can say paper is better.

How do you handle copyright laws with digital media in your scenareo with infinite copies being make instantly? *A lot of things are going to have to change before digital is king IMHO.

[2006gwfcchamps]

The same way they handle copyright law with printed copies.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Repeatedly spouting false information does not make it true. Stop now, you are wrong, just accept it. Ask anyone who has ever done any sort of academic work or research. Digital information is useful, but not superior to hard copy.

[tony]

This just in, "Ad hominem" is still not a noun (if you don't get the reference, be glad).

Some folks it doesn't pay to argue with. If they only speak in absolutes and only post troll-worthy stuff like "NDSU should cut [this sport: golf, baseball, any womens sport]", "NDSU is stupid to sign anybody from small schools," "Blah, blah, blah UND blah", "field turf blah blah blah," etc then maybe I should ban them, but first let's try to ignore them and see if they get the hint and post something worth reading.

[TheDoctor]

As someone who does research as part of my job for a living I see both sides actually. When I am conducting a review of literature for a study, I love to go to the NDSU library websight and pull up EBSCO which is a internet based journal data base. I then enter key worlds like "elementary physical education" and it searches all the journals in the data bases for articles about elementary physical education. When I find an article I like, I print it off. I can't stand to read articles on the computer. So, in 2007 would I ever go over to the library and thumb through the journals looking for a certain subject? NO Do I read all journal articles on line and never use paper? NO Just my two cents. :D

[TheDoctor]

Libraries are a vital part of any campus


You continue saying this as if I'll eventually accept your arbitrary decree.


It seems to me the Varsity Mart is still selling texts. *


Book store != library.

Perhaps we should replace the library with a Barnes & Noble? Maybe then the students will actually go in there.

The funny thing is a particular university we don't talk about on here actually did!!!!! ;D ;D

[IowaBisonToo]

As someone who does research as part of my job for a living I see both sides actually. *When I am conducting a review of literature for a study, I love to go to the NDSU library websight and pull up EBSCO which is a internet based journal data base. *I then enter key worlds like "elementary physical education" and it searches all the journals in the data bases for articles about elementary physical education. *When I find an article I like, I print it off. *I can't stand to read articles on the computer. *So, in 2007 would I ever go over to the library and thumb through the journals looking for a certain subject? *NO *Do I read all journal articles on line and never use paper? *NO *Just my two cents. * :D
B1SON - whole heartedly agree with you. I'd like to see "2006s" computer screen. It must have Hi-Liter markings all over the place. What a bitch when you have to keep switching back and forth from one journal article to another to another on your computer screen and the hi-lited material is in the wrong place depending on which journal you're looking at or whether you scroll down the article. Damn computer keeps messing me up! ;D It seems it would be a little impractical to have 5 or 6 computer screens spread out on your desk while writing a research paper on the 7th one, trying to browse through the journals for the information you need. Great thinking 2006!

[Bisonguy]

As someone who does research as part of my job for a living I see both sides actually. *When I am conducting a review of literature for a study, I love to go to the NDSU library websight and pull up EBSCO which is a internet based journal data base. *I then enter key worlds like "elementary physical education" and it searches all the journals in the data bases for articles about elementary physical education. *When I find an article I like, I print it off. *I can't stand to read articles on the computer. *So, in 2007 would I ever go over to the library and thumb through the journals looking for a certain subject? *NO *Do I read all journal articles on line and never use paper? *NO *Just my two cents. * :D
B1SON - whole heartedly agree with you. *I'd like to see "2006s" computer screen. *It must have Hi-Liter markings all over the place. *What a bitch when you have to keep switching back and forth from one journal article to another to another on your computer screen and the hi-lited material is in the wrong place depending on which journal you're looking at or whether you scroll down the article. *Damn computer keeps messing me up! ;D *It seems it would be a little impractical to have 5 or 6 computer screens spread out on your desk while writing a research paper on the 7th one, trying to browse through the journals for the information you need. *Great thinking 2006!


Why would you need six or seven monitors?
It's not illegal to have more than one window open at time, and switch between them.


Has anyone on here used the Sony Reader yet? I have a couple of friends that really like them.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Yup, Bisonguy.

Technology is well on it's way to getting rid of unnecessary paper.


I'm very confident that one day there will be no more paper used for anything.

[Junior]

I'm very confident that one day there will be no more paper used for anything.

LOL

[Bisonguy]

I'm very confident that one day there will be no more paper used for anything.

LOL *

Don't underestimate the three sea shells. ;)

[pmp6nl]

Wow, I didnt think my comment on a new library would lead to such a plethora of new posts.

Just remember, if money is put into a new library it will be a library built for the future, not the past.

The people designing the library would likely know to make it work pretty well for the future. It not like they would build it 50s style like the current one!

[pmp6nl]

I'm very confident that one day there will be no more paper used for anything.

LOL

Don't underestimate the three sea shells. ;)

haha

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Anyone think it would be possible to build a new library and keep the old one as a supplemental type facility? I'd like to see it, but I think that the current building might need too much money in repairs and upkeep for that to be feasible.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Turn it into a classroom building. I'm sure NDSU can use the class space.

[Jeffdaryl3rd]

Turn it into a classroom building. I'm sure NDSU can use the class space.

That is an idea, but I think to make the repairs necessary and outfit the library as a classroom would be pretty darn expensive. Maybe not, but I'm not betting on it.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Probably cheaper than a new building.

[IL_Bison]

Just a quick update on Sheppard Arena. A new meats processing/fabrication facility is under construction on Great Northern Drive, and will house a couple AnSci faculty as well as a private natural beef company. This is part of the Center of Excellence in Beef Systems. I have no idea of the long-term plans for Sheppard, but one would suspect that an arena out by the Animal Nutrition and Physiology Center on 18th would make sense. The real estate that Sheppard sits on is much too valuable, and the building will soon be underutilized, in my opinion.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Thanks for the info.


Indeed, a number of things could be put on the Sheppard site and the large green area south of it.