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tony
11-29-2006, 12:09 PM
I split this off from Games in the Dome (http://www400.pair.com/bisonvil/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1159359936) because that thread was getting too long and covered a lot of different topics.

Summary: It looks like NDSU is discussing three options (for reference, see the Fargo Forum's article: Walaker proposes addition By Mike Nowatzki. (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=147821&section=news)).

1. Playing basketball in the remodelled BSA.
2. A new arena in the south as part of the Brandt development (8000-8500 seats)
3. An addition to the west side of the FargoDome proposed by Fargo's Mayor, Denis Walaker (7000-8000 seats)

BTW, nice call by Greenie for outlining these options a full two months ago.

TheBisonator
11-29-2006, 12:51 PM
As soon as my medieval torture session (architecture studio for fall semester) ends, I'm planning on drawing up a design proposal for a new arena on the west Fargodome site. Hopefully I'll have a few MS Paint documents done sometime in January.

I'm not a licensed architect, or anything (in fact, I'm not even gonna be an architect - I'm swiching my major to art), but I know all the big brass on a personal basis, and at least it's something that can give them an idea.

drewaely
11-29-2006, 12:51 PM
I'm all for the addition to the Fargodome... A few other things were mentioned regarding paying for the facility.

1. The FargoDome has an extra 12 million dollars from the sales tax (they raised more tax than they anticipated)
2. Sell naming rights to new facility or to the FargoDome itself
3. NDSU kicking in some or all of it's 8 million that is currently raised to renovate the BSA.

I think that all of these ideas are great. While i'm sure that NDSU would pony up 8 million towards this facility they certainly could still raise more money to help renovate the dome (new offices, weight room, track stuff, etc).


This is extremely good news for the City of Fargo, NDSU and I applaud Dennis "all he does is save the city" Wallacker.

Drew

TheBisonator
11-29-2006, 12:57 PM
I'm all for the addition to the Fargodome... *A few other things were mentioned regarding paying for the facility.

1. *The FargoDome has an extra 12 million dollars from the sales tax (they raised more tax than they anticipated)
2. *Sell naming rights to new facility or to the FargoDome itself
3. *NDSU kicking in some or all of it's 8 million that is currently raised to renovate the BSA.

I think that all of these ideas are great. *While i'm sure that NDSU would pony up 8 million towards this facility they certainly could still raise more money to help renovate the dome (new offices, weight room, track stuff, etc).


This is extremely good news for the City of Fargo, NDSU and I applaud Dennis "all he does is save the city" Wallacker.

Drew

I'm thinking this:

$8,000,000 is already acquired for the BSA renovation (donors won't mind if their money will now go toward a new arena)

$13,000,000 (conservative estimate) in excess money from the dome sales tax

$4,000,000 from a corporate sponsor (Scheels? Gate City Bank? Domino's Pizza? Dodge? Outback Steakhouse? Microsoft?) for naming rights

$10,000,000 more from donors (may take a couple years - Could we start construction on the timeframe Walaker is suggesting??)

This would give us $35,000,000 for a nice 6,500-7,000 seat arena that's not bare-bones, and has some good amenities.

I really don't think we'll ever be able to consistently sell out 9,000 seats on a consistent basis, which is why I personally like something in the 7,000 range. Go ahead, flame away. :D

WYOBISONMAN
11-29-2006, 01:17 PM
The Fargodome addition seems pretty appealling. The only drawback I see it that Fargo could NOT host the Mid Con Tourney as that has to be on a neutral court.

Go_Herd
11-29-2006, 01:22 PM
Were they talking about the new Fargodome / B-Ball arena addition to be city owned? I saw last night on the news that they were talking that this new arena could host other things as well as the Fargodome. Isn't the Fargodome always close every year to paying off their expenses, if I remember right they don't make a huge profit and a few years have been in the red.

So my question is, if it is city owned how are they gonna pay for it other than NDSU stuff. They could take stuff away from the Fargodome and than that goes downhill. I just don't think there are enough events to fit into two nice event centers.

I think that they should try to push the 8,500-9,500. What if we do become good and we are overflowing our capicity (might take a few years). Some way of adding in the future or something.
I will go with the saying "Go big or go home."

And please don't put it in South Fargo--that would be terrible.

Go_Herd
11-29-2006, 01:23 PM
The Fargodome addition seems pretty appealling. *The only drawback I see it that Fargo could NOT host the Mid Con Tourney as that has to be on a neutral court.


Wouldn't it still work however to put it in the Fargodome, or not because its attached.

WYOBISONMAN
11-29-2006, 01:26 PM
The Fargodome addition seems pretty appealling. *The only drawback I see it that Fargo could NOT host the Mid Con Tourney as that has to be on a neutral court.


Wouldn't it still work however to put it in the Fargodome, or not because its attached.

Possibly. I would like to see the MidCon comment on that before a decision is made......

BisonBacker
11-29-2006, 01:27 PM
Here's my two cents worth.
1. *Putting money or at least the amount they were talking about into the BSA would be a terrible waste.
2. *South Side arena would be a bad idea, limits student involovement ect.
3. *The new proposal if followed through on should be more then an 8000 seat stadium. *12,000 on two levels with the upper level only being open if the lower level sells out.
4. *They need to have more options/say in when the Bball team can be in the facility. *Currently with the football team our options are limited with the Fargodome. *That is wrong. *If there is no event going on in the dome the football team if they want should be able to practice in the dome.
5. *I can't believe I'm saying this but have the option in the future for another facility (for those who enjoy the sport of hocky) to be added on to the two if and when NDSU ever decides to go with DI hockey. *This last option I don't know if it would ever happen but every possible contingency has to be considered.
6. *Chapmans comment about the southside being an attractive option is just a wild card he's using to get the city to get off their butts and do something to help NDSU. *No way Chapman would IMHO really want to move to an off campus stadium. *But why not use that bargaining chip if you have it which he does.
I think this deal gets done but not until 09-10. *two years is to little time to do everything that needs to get done and do it right.

BisonBacker
11-29-2006, 01:31 PM
One last comment, Denny Walacker is the man! :D

IowaBison
11-29-2006, 01:38 PM
1. I'm almost certain that they are going to do remodel the BSA. If the FargoDome addition goes through it might not include much work on the arena. However, much of the rest of the building needs a face lift badly. The programs over there have been waiting patiently as most the effort has been put into the football program, no it's every one else's turn.


2. The proposal for SW Fargo may be the clincher in this. Having another viable alternative may force the communities hand to expand the offerings of the North side Entertainment Complex.


3. Denny Walaker is the man.

drewaely
11-29-2006, 01:42 PM
Were they talking about the new Fargodome / B-Ball arena addition to be city owned? *I saw last night on the news that they were talking that this new arena could host other things as well as the Fargodome. *Isn't the Fargodome always close every year to paying off their expenses, if I remember right they don't make a huge profit and a few years have been in the red.

So my question is, if it is city owned how are they gonna pay for it other than NDSU stuff. *They could take stuff away from the Fargodome and than that goes downhill. *I just don't think there are enough events to fit into two nice event centers.

I think that they should try to push the 8,500-9,500. *What if we do become good and we are overflowing our capicity (might take a few years). *Some way of adding in the future or something.
I will go with the saying "Go big or go home."

And please don't put it in South Fargo--that would be terrible.

Yes, the new facility would be city owned. You are right stating that the Fargodome does make money (every year). The reason why the city wants to do this has more to do with the limited types of events that the fargodome can host. There is a big need for a "small venue". This venue could hold small concerts, trade shows, etc... I think the idea is that the dome authority could best utilize it's services if it has another way to attract people to the dome/bball facility.

Also, regarding Mid-Con tourney.... Why couldn't we still have it in the Fargodome??? Just becuase there is a basketball facility next door doesn't mean that you couldn't have it at the Fargodome... Really it's no different than having it at the dome when the BSA is only a few blocks away. Also... I don't think that we should put the Mid-Con tourney in front of having a kickass facility. We don't NEED a mid-con tourney. We NEED a new bball arena.

WYOBISONMAN
11-29-2006, 01:45 PM
Were they talking about the new Fargodome / B-Ball arena addition to be city owned? *I saw last night on the news that they were talking that this new arena could host other things as well as the Fargodome. *Isn't the Fargodome always close every year to paying off their expenses, if I remember right they don't make a huge profit and a few years have been in the red.

So my question is, if it is city owned how are they gonna pay for it other than NDSU stuff. *They could take stuff away from the Fargodome and than that goes downhill. *I just don't think there are enough events to fit into two nice event centers.

I think that they should try to push the 8,500-9,500. *What if we do become good and we are overflowing our capicity (might take a few years). *Some way of adding in the future or something.
I will go with the saying "Go big or go home."

And please don't put it in South Fargo--that would be terrible.

Yes, the new facility would be city owned. *You are right stating that the Fargodome does make money (every year). *The reason why the city wants to do this has more to do with the limited types of events that the fargodome can host. *There is a big need for a "small venue". *This venue could hold small concerts, trade shows, etc... *I think the idea is that the dome authority could best utilize it's services if it has another way to attract people to the dome/bball facility.

Also, regarding Mid-Con tourney.... *Why couldn't we still have it in the Fargodome??? *Just becuase there is a basketball facility next door doesn't mean that you couldn't have it at the Fargodome... *Really it's no different than having it at the dome when the BSA is only a few blocks away. *Also... *I don't think that we should put the Mid-Con tourney in front of having a kickass facility. *We don't NEED a mid-con tourney. *We NEED a new bball arena.





I said it should be a consideration and we should get some clarification from the conference, NOT that it should be "in front of having a kick ass facility".

I would also think that hosting the MidCon Tourney should be something that Fargo should aggressively go after. *I think that Fargo fans would support the tourney better than many other cities. *It would also be huge for NDSU and the city. Good for the MidCon, NDSU and for Fargo..........

IowaBisonToo
11-29-2006, 01:49 PM
Regardless of what happens when it comes to actually deciding on a new arena, the BSA is going to be remodelled. People want new offices, they want a new weight room, they want to upgrade locker rooms, etc. That may in and of itself take up the whole $8MM. Now what they do for an arena is another story. My guess is that the BSA still is used as the initial plans were laid out and a new arena would be somewhere down the line say in 10-15 years. $0.02

drewaely
11-29-2006, 02:04 PM
Were they talking about the new Fargodome / B-Ball arena addition to be city owned? *I saw last night on the news that they were talking that this new arena could host other things as well as the Fargodome. *Isn't the Fargodome always close every year to paying off their expenses, if I remember right they don't make a huge profit and a few years have been in the red.

So my question is, if it is city owned how are they gonna pay for it other than NDSU stuff. *They could take stuff away from the Fargodome and than that goes downhill. *I just don't think there are enough events to fit into two nice event centers.

I think that they should try to push the 8,500-9,500. *What if we do become good and we are overflowing our capicity (might take a few years). *Some way of adding in the future or something.
I will go with the saying "Go big or go home."

And please don't put it in South Fargo--that would be terrible.

Yes, the new facility would be city owned. *You are right stating that the Fargodome does make money (every year). *The reason why the city wants to do this has more to do with the limited types of events that the fargodome can host. *There is a big need for a "small venue". *This venue could hold small concerts, trade shows, etc... *I think the idea is that the dome authority could best utilize it's services if it has another way to attract people to the dome/bball facility.

Also, regarding Mid-Con tourney.... *Why couldn't we still have it in the Fargodome??? *Just becuase there is a basketball facility next door doesn't mean that you couldn't have it at the Fargodome... *Really it's no different than having it at the dome when the BSA is only a few blocks away. *Also... *I don't think that we should put the Mid-Con tourney in front of having a kickass facility. *We don't NEED a mid-con tourney. *We NEED a new bball arena.





I said it should be a consideration and we should get some clarification from the conference, NOT that it should be "in front of having a kick ass facility".

I would also think that hosting the MidCon Tourney should be something that Fargo should aggressively go after. *I think that Fargo fans would support the tourney better than many other cities. *It would also be huge for NDSU and the city. *Good for the MidCon, NDSU and for Fargo..........

Lots of things should be a "consideration". My point is more that some people will get stuck in the "WE WANT A MID-CON TOURNEY" mode and forget that we really need a stadium.

Yes, the tourney would be good for NDSU and Fargo. The fact is though that the tourney wouldn't be in Fargo every year and to be honest it should be something that is an aferthought really

markerman
11-29-2006, 02:09 PM
I'm ok with them remodeling the BSA for offices, weight rooms, etc., but for basketball PLEASE get a separate arena. I think without a doubt the Fargodome addition would be the most attractive, but a S. Fargo arena would be decent too. Playing in a remodeled BSA will still keep us as "second rate" IMO. If we want to attract big names (and FSN, ESPN, CSTV) to come to Fargo, we need to have an impressive arena.

BTW, I have always thought the Wells Fargo Dome would be an incredibly natural name for the facility...

IowaBison
11-29-2006, 02:13 PM
there's already a wells fargo arena in des moines.


the only way ndsu should agree to an off-campus facility is it's downtown as the downtown campus is no sure to be more than a one building misnomer.

Go_Herd
11-29-2006, 02:17 PM
Think about how much student attendence would keel off if it was located in South Fargo. Paying attendence I couldn't say what it would do. Whatever they do keep it around campus.

tony
11-29-2006, 02:19 PM
Fargo could still host the Mid-Con tourney since it'd be played in the FargoDome.

Hypothetical Arena (Next To The FargoDome) would be much more of a partnership between Fargo and NDSU than the FargoDome is since NDSU would be paying for a big chunk of the price and would also be using it every day.

imabison
11-29-2006, 02:57 PM
If I recall they Mid Con tourney is held at facilities NOT considered the home court. *If the Fargodome does build the facility, and NDSU plays its basketball games there, then it becomes the Home Court, and they would not hold the Mid Con tourney there.

Ivy
11-29-2006, 03:09 PM
I love the idea of a new basketball arena attached to the Fargodome!!! *Heck, I think they could scrap the BSA renovation all together and build new offices and and weight room into the Fargodome addition. *Football offices are already out the BSA, so why not?

Let the south side arena be for hockey if they still would like to go forward. *It seems like Fargo doesn't have enough Ice Time, and this could help with that problem. *

BisonBacker
11-29-2006, 03:09 PM
Regardless of what happens when it comes to actually deciding on a new arena, the BSA is going to be remodelled. *People want new offices, they want a new weight room, they want to upgrade locker rooms, etc. *That may in and of itself take up the whole $8MM. *Now what they do for an arena is another story. *My guess is that the BSA still is used as the initial plans were laid out and a new arena would be somewhere down the line say in 10-15 years. *$0.02

I disagree with you. I have no problem with them upgrading the BSA but I don't see where 8 million is needed to do that for offices ect. As far as the BSA being used for Bball yes its still a possibility but I don't think it's going to be used for that in 5 years maybe even less. Peoples eyes have been opened to what the possibilities are with a new arena as opposed to a re-mod of an old BSA. No way are people going to be ok dumping money into the BSA with the options out there now. Those plans were made for the BSA when no other viable options were available. That landscape has changed and will continue to but I think the change is good and a much better option for NDSU then longterm 10-15 years of bball in the old BSA remod or not.

IowaBisonToo
11-29-2006, 04:04 PM
Regardless of what happens when it comes to actually deciding on a new arena, the BSA is going to be remodelled. *People want new offices, they want a new weight room, they want to upgrade locker rooms, etc. *That may in and of itself take up the whole $8MM. *Now what they do for an arena is another story. *My guess is that the BSA still is used as the initial plans were laid out and a new arena would be somewhere down the line say in 10-15 years. *$0.02

I disagree with you. *I have no problem with them upgrading the BSA but I don't see where 8 million is needed to do that for offices ect. *As far as the BSA being used for Bball yes its still a possibility but I don't think it's going to be used for that in 5 years maybe even less. *Peoples eyes have been opened to what the possibilities are with a new arena as opposed to a re-mod of an old BSA. *No way are people going to be ok dumping money into the BSA with the options out there now. *Those plans were made for the BSA when no other viable options were available. *That landscape has changed and will continue to but I think the change is good and a much better option for NDSU then longterm 10-15 years of bball in the old BSA remod or not.
I need to back-track with what I said. :-[ I wrote that before I read the Forum article about what the Honorable Walacker was thinking. Now I'm of the ilk that an arena connected to the FFD would be a very good idea. I would also have to agree with those that think that spending $8MM on BSA renovations is probably a little high. You could put basketball offices/locker rooms over in the new arena but, you still need central weight rooms for the other sports based out of the BSA along with administrative offices. How much other remodelling is needed then becomes questionable - although would volleyball head over to the BSA someday??? Something to think about. I guess if they had that much demand for tickets, the new arena would be better than a remodelled BSA.

roadwarrior
11-29-2006, 04:19 PM
The GOOD NEWS is that it seems like a decision on which direction to go is now on the fast track.

I see the Fargodome addition as the best alternative of the three outlined. South Fargo is way way too off campus to be a good solution. The BSA remodel would be limited in scope and all of the money would have to raised from contributors. The joint effort with NDSU and the City of Fargo is the best by far! It keeps basketball on campus and in a brand new facility. The facility can be a boost to Fargodome operations when not needed for basketball.

As I stated in the other thread, basketball practice gyms will almost definitely be built onto the BSA no matter which of the three choices wins out.

Lets not get out of sight on the size we need for basketball. I would hate to see us playing in a 10000 seat arena with only 2400 fans. I know that the fact of having a new arena itself WILL INCREASE ticket sales, but lets not go too big. The real limiting factor on how big it will be is based on how much dough can be thrown together for this project.

I am hoping that the leaders of the City of Fargo and NDSU along with the Fargodome authority members have the vision to get this done! WOW The city did some creative financing to get the baseball stadium built, lets hope they can do it again.

IowaBison
11-29-2006, 04:54 PM
The real limiting factor on how big it will be is based on how much dough can be thrown together for this project. *


I'll throw in $250 if I can get naming rights on a urinal trough. Admin: A little de-smackification.

IowaBison
11-29-2006, 05:11 PM
:( *

(I understand, but can't a guy smack every once in a while?)

Admin: Not in this thread.

tony
11-29-2006, 05:22 PM
Anybody have a clue with what the next step is?

IowaBison
11-29-2006, 06:00 PM
Sounds like they are going to form a commission to study the idea (per the forum story).

I imagine the time line is pretty quick if they want to have the facility ready by 2008.

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 06:17 PM
- What happens to Albrecht north of 17th Ave N? From the Forum map it looked like they were going to put it right on the street.

- Are the 2 buildings going to be physically connected? Skybridge? Not connected?

- Would the Fargodome be able to host the Mid Con conference tournament?

- What happens to the BSA and BBFH? I suspect that the "Fargoarena" will host all NDSU MBB, WBB, Wrestling, and Volleyball matches.
Is there a need for either facility? Perhaps the new arena would have new practice facilities built on as well (IE, new coaches offices for MBB, WBB, VB, and W, practice courts,a wrestling room, weight room, training room, meeting rooms, and new lockers for those 4)? The only team that would use the BSA if those 4 teams left would be the track team for the indoor track season and winter practicing. I suppose the BSA would need to stay for that. But would there be a need to remodel the whole thing just for use as an indoor track? Heck, maybe you even tear out most of it and just upgrade the track locker rooms, offices, etc.? As far as the BBFH, maybe they should just give it back to the school to do whatever they want with (physical education building?).

IowaBison
11-29-2006, 06:27 PM
I've seen plans/sketches? that basically have the new facility sharing a wall with the Dome.

Personally, I'd prefer to keep Albrecht and attach the buildings with a skyway. (Of course there are money and physics issues, but few others on this board take such things into consideration, so why should I?)

sambini
11-29-2006, 06:33 PM
One last comment, *Denny Walacker is the man! :D
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mayor Dennis Walaker is a past president of TEAMMAKERS 2000+++++++++++

markerman
11-29-2006, 07:11 PM
there's already a wells fargo arena in des moines.

Miami Heat: *American Airlines Arena
Dallas Mavericks: American Airlines Center

This would not be an issue... *;D

silkamilkamonico
11-29-2006, 07:48 PM
PLease DO NOT go Southside on this one whatever you do NDSU.

IMHO, I would rather see them stay in the BSA. It would be their home. It's where they practice, and I feel it gives the ultimate home court advantage.

If they did go with the Fargodome addition, how "Bison" would it look, considering it would be a multipurpose venue?

I don't want to go see the Bison play in some generic random "nuetral" venue no matter how beautiful, cozy, additional seating, whatever, if it means it isn't much like a "Bison atmosphere".

drewaely
11-29-2006, 07:51 PM
PLease DO NOT go Southside on this one whatever you do NDSU.

IMHO, I would rather see them stay in the BSA. *It would be their home. *It's where they practice, and I feel it gives the ultimate home court advantage.

If they did go with the Fargodome addition, how "Bison" would it look, considering it would be a multipurpose venue?

I don't want to go see the Bison play in some generic random "nuetral" venue no matter how beautiful, cozy, additional seating, whatever, if it means it isn't much like a "Bison atmosphere".

I'm not sure that this would really be an issue. If NDSU was putting in big chunks of money it would definately be considered NDSU's "home". I think that the arena would be for basketball first -- and then for other things second.

silkamilkamonico
11-29-2006, 08:00 PM
PLease DO NOT go Southside on this one whatever you do NDSU.

IMHO, I would rather see them stay in the BSA. *It would be their home. *It's where they practice, and I feel it gives the ultimate home court advantage.

If they did go with the Fargodome addition, how "Bison" would it look, considering it would be a multipurpose venue?

I don't want to go see the Bison play in some generic random "nuetral" venue no matter how beautiful, cozy, additional seating, whatever, if it means it isn't much like a "Bison atmosphere".

I'm not sure that this would really be an issue. *If NDSU was putting in big chunks of money it would definately be considered NDSU's "home". *I think that the arena would be for basketball first -- and then for other things second.



Will there be yellow/green seats, like there possibly could be with the BSA? Will the scoreboard be Bison centered, or will it be a nuetral scoreboard to cater other sports? Will there be random NDSUism's around the arena, or will they want to keep it clean to cater towards other events?

The Fargodome is a great venue for football, but I do believe it could still be more NDSU oriented.

I'm sure they'll work something out, it's just IMHO that a renovated BSA would be the best fit for them.

And I would surely think the players would rather play on the court they practice on.

TheBisonator
11-29-2006, 08:11 PM
PLease DO NOT go Southside on this one whatever you do NDSU.

IMHO, I would rather see them stay in the BSA. *It would be their home. *It's where they practice, and I feel it gives the ultimate home court advantage.

If they did go with the Fargodome addition, how "Bison" would it look, considering it would be a multipurpose venue?

I don't want to go see the Bison play in some generic random "nuetral" venue no matter how beautiful, cozy, additional seating, whatever, if it means it isn't much like a "Bison atmosphere".

I'm not sure that this would really be an issue. *If NDSU was putting in big chunks of money it would definately be considered NDSU's "home". *I think that the arena would be for basketball first -- and then for other things second.



Will there be yellow/green seats, like there possibly could be with the BSA? *Will the scoreboard be Bison centered, or will it be a nuetral scoreboard to cater other sports? *Will there be random NDSUism's around the arena, or will they want to keep it clean to cater towards other events?

The Fargodome is a great venue for football, but I do believe it could still be more NDSU oriented.

I'm sure they'll work something out, it's just IMHO that a renovated BSA would be the best fit for them.

And I would surely think the players would rather play on the court they practice on.

I'm sure that if NDSU is plopping tens of millions of $$$$ into the arena, they'll be allowed to make it as Bison-themed as they want it.

And I personally spit at a renovated BSA.

silkamilkamonico
11-29-2006, 08:18 PM
And I personally spit at a renovated BSA.



It wouldn't be my first choice, but I would rather have that then NDSU share in some multi purpose venue for the city.

Ideally, I would want a new arena for NDSU only, unfortunately it just doesn't look like an option at this point.

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 08:59 PM
I would expect the following:

Arena constructed to be a smaller version of Fargodome.

Blue seats to match the dome.

Concrete floor.

NDSU would have their bball floor from the BSA laid out when they want to use the arena for bball games in the same manner that the NDSU football field is rolled out onto the concrete floor of the dome.

I suspect the BSA central scoreboard would be installed, perhaps with 4 video boards.

Practice courts (ideally 2, 1 for men and women) would be build in the same building and total control of them would be given to NDSU much like NDSU has total control over the football practice fields. Also, I suspect new offices like the new football offices (but not that expensive) will be build as well as new locker rooms for both MBB and WBB.

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 09:04 PM
And I personally spit at a renovated BSA.


I think it has some useful things like the indoor track, the wrestling room, the weight room, the training room, the pool, and the offices for wrestling, volleyball, and track.

And it's very ugly from the outside.


Ideally, I think I'd like to move volleyball and wrestling operations permanently into the BBFH (IE, all practices, meetings, offices, locker rooms, etc.).

Move all basketball operations into the new arena.

Build a new indoor track/indoor practice facility (similar to what Akron built: http://www.gozips.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10800&KEY=&ATCLID=31953 8) where Dacotah Field is.

http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics19/0/HD/HDFYBBNCXQQBLMQ.20060629160134.jpg

That would house the weight room, training room, and track offices/locker rooms.


Then the BSA could be demolished and used for parking.

Bison101
11-29-2006, 09:08 PM
I would expect the following:

Arena constructed to be a smaller version of Fargodome.

Blue seats to match the dome.

Concrete floor.



If this is the case, count me as one who does not like the idea. If this is going to be a joint venture, it damn well better be a basketball arena first, with Yellow and green seats with good sight lines. A removable floor is fine, put it down when basketball starts, and pull it after the season. The BSA still needs renovation so that Wrestling and Volleyball have their own space. In addition, we need our own practice courts.

Bison_Dan
11-29-2006, 09:10 PM
I would expect the following:

Arena constructed to be a smaller version of Fargodome.

Blue seats to match the dome.

Concrete floor.

NDSU would have their bball floor from the BSA laid out when they want to use the arena for bball games in the same manner that the NDSU football field is rolled out onto the concrete floor of the dome.

I suspect the BSA central scoreboard would be installed, perhaps with 4 video boards.

Practice courts (ideally 2, 1 for men and women) would be build in the same building and total control of them would be given to NDSU much like NDSU has total control over the football practice fields. Also, I suspect new offices like the new football offices (but not that expensive) will be build as well as new locker rooms for both MBB and WBB.

I think a smaller copy of the FD would be kind of ulgy. Use the same brick color but different shape.

Green Seats

Luxury boxes all the way around (good source of income)

Sunken floor

Meeting rooms

I think the committee should go around and look at some venues and get the best ideas of each.

Fun times to be a BISON! ;D ;D

Bison101
11-29-2006, 09:12 PM
http://www.nmnathletics.com.edgesuite.net/pics19/0/HD/HDFYBBNCXQQBLMQ.20060629160134.jpg

Got to give you a +++++++++++++ on that, that is exactly what the next project should be.

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 09:13 PM
If this is the case, count me as one who does not like the idea. If this is going to be a joint venture, it damn well better be a basketball arena first, with Yellow and green seats with good sight lines.

I doubt highly that the actual engineering of the arena won't be with basketball in mind. I have to imagine the sight lines will be great.

Are blue seats really that big of a problem for you? It didn't look like a big problem with 19k+ were in the dome for the Marker game.


A removable floor is fine, put it down when basketball starts, and pull it after the season.

It's really not that hard to take apart and put back together. I think the idea would be when bball is away, the arena could be used for concerts and conventions.

Like I said, if practice courts are constructed, the team will only need to be out on the floor during games.


The BSA still needs renovation so that Wrestling and Volleyball have their own space. In addition, we need our own practice courts.


If volleyball is going to move over to the BSA and wrestling is going to stay, then there should be some improvements made. I agree with that.

But certainly not 8 million dollars worth.

And I think it would be better to put those programs in the BBFH.

If there was ever a big time meet or match, they could always have it in the new arena (or even the dome if it was REALLY big).


That's what I like about this whole plan. It gives NDSU 3 levels of venue (small BBFH, medium new arena, big dome).

roadwarrior
11-29-2006, 09:16 PM
There will not be blue seats.

Bison_Dan
11-29-2006, 09:18 PM
If this is the case, count me as one who does not like the idea. If this is going to be a joint venture, it damn well better be a basketball arena first, with Yellow and green seats with good sight lines.

I doubt highly that the actual engineering of the arena won't be with basketball in mind. I have to imagine the sight lines will be great.

Are blue seats really that big of a problem for you? It didn't look like a big problem with 19k+ were in the dome for the Marker game.


A removable floor is fine, put it down when basketball starts, and pull it after the season.

It's really not that hard to take apart and put back together. I think the idea would be when bball is away, the arena could be used for concerts and conventions.

Like I said, if practice courts are constructed, the team will only need to be out on the floor during games.


The BSA still needs renovation so that Wrestling and Volleyball have their own space. In addition, we need our own practice courts.


If volleyball is going to move over to the BSA and wrestling is going to stay, then there should be some improvements made. I agree with that.

But certainly not 8 million dollars worth.

And I think it would be better to put those programs in the BBFH.

If there was ever a big time meet or match, they could always have it in the new arena (or even the dome if it was REALLY big).


That's what I like about this whole plan. It gives NDSU 3 levels of venue (small BBFH, medium new arena, big dome).


If NDSU is going to put in the majority of money we should get a venue that's BISON not a genetic theme.

NDSUFREAK10
11-29-2006, 09:31 PM
there's already a wells fargo arena in des moines.

Miami Heat: *American Airlines Arena
Dallas Mavericks: American Airlines Center

This would not be an issue... *;D

Arizona State's basketball arena is Wells Fargo.

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 09:41 PM
I'm just telling you what I expect the FDA to want.

IMO, I don't think the color of the seats matters one bit when every seat has someone wearing a green and gold shirt.


Another thing, if we can get the city to build the arena, perhaps we should let them pick up the tab?

We can use the 8 million for other projects.

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 09:45 PM
Here's something I made up using google maps and paint.

It's the block between 15th A N, Albrecht A, 17th A N, and University. Except I replaced the BSA with parking, replaced the tennis courts with parking, and replaced the Dacotah Field area with Akron's field house (they're the same scale) just to see what it looks like:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6708/blockou4.jpg

tony
11-29-2006, 09:46 PM
There will not be blue seats.

Woohoo! I sure want a place that is identifiably the home of NDSU basketball and blue seats don't cut it. Ideally, I'd like mostly green seats with yellow ones spelling out NDSU on one side and BISON on the other.

BTW, if this arena is built, I really don't see how they could put it right up against the FargoDome as that would block the western entrance in and out of the dome. Anybody have insight into how that would work?

TheBisonator
11-29-2006, 10:01 PM
I'm just telling you what I expect the FDA to want.

IMO, I don't think the color of the seats matters one bit when every seat has someone wearing a green and gold shirt.


Another thing, if we can get the city to build the arena, perhaps we should let them pick up the tab?

We can use the 8 million for other projects.

If NDSU is ponying up a majority of the price tag, the Dome Authority will have no problem following NDSU's wishes in every aspect of the design.

This won't be a facility paid for by city taxpayer money. It will be paid for with a dome tax surplus, donations and corporate sponsorship.

RodentiaX1
11-29-2006, 10:10 PM
I wouldn't think that having the basketball arena attached the the Fargodome would make the Fargodome cease to be a neutral court. But, then again, I don't make such decisions, what matters is what the Mid-Con thinks.

bisonranch
11-29-2006, 10:19 PM
A 6-8000 seat arena may be alright as long is it is EXPANDABLE in the future. Something they forgot with the Fargodome.

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 10:43 PM
A 6-8000 seat arena may be alright as long is it is EXPANDABLE in the future. Something they forgot with the Fargodome.

You expect NDSU bball to be bigger than UNI?

2 similar sized schools in or near similar sized markets except we're just starting DI and they've been to the big dance and ranked in the top 25. Yet their new arena has about 6000 seats.

I think 7000 seats would be PLENTY.

If the demand is higher than that, raise the prices.

bisonranch
11-29-2006, 11:07 PM
You expect NDSU bball to be bigger than UNI?

2 similar sized schools in or near similar sized markets except we're just starting DI and they've been to the big dance and ranked in the top 25. Yet their new arena has about 6000 seats.

I think 7000 seats would be PLENTY.

If the demand is higher than that, raise the prices.

That respose in responce to the 10-12K seat arena comments. *I think NDSU will draw more than UNI in the future if successful in bball. *We are a flagship school. Iowa has a lot more people, but UNI is an after thought compared to the Hawkeyes and Cyclones.

tony
11-29-2006, 11:34 PM
Four factors to consider when doing seating:

1. What does the FargoDome want for its purposes?
2. NDSU was regularly drawing over 6,000 when I was a starving undergrad. For example, 90,000+ folks went to NDSU basketball games back in 1983!
3. NDSU should really build something that has the potential to be attractive to potental conferences even if NDSU stays in the Mid-Con forever.
4. Cost... if the cost for going from 6,000 to 8,000 is linear, then I'd say go for the high end. If there is a huge cost to go from 6000 to 7000 or 7000 to 8000, I think you cut it off before the costs balloons unless (or course) they run the numbers and find that the benefit of the extra seats outweighs the cost.

99Bison
11-29-2006, 11:44 PM
8k seats at least...

2006gwfcchamps
11-29-2006, 11:56 PM
if the cost for going from 6,000 to 8,000 is linear, then I'd say go for the high end. If there is a huge cost to go from 6000 to 7000 or 7000 to 8000, I think you cut it off before the costs balloons

That's a fair analysis.

My guess is that going from 6k to 8k wouldn't be a huge deal.

I think once you start talking about 10k and higher, then you're talking serious dough.

Bisonguy
11-30-2006, 12:13 AM
Walaker was on Hot Talk today talking about this today.


Few additional insights-

- they don't know exactly how many seats will be needed. It's still up in the air

- the Fargodome in a BB configuration should still be able to host NCAA and conference tourneys

- at least 5 members on the city commision are already in favor of this

- a vote might not be needed if there's an overwhelming majority in favor of the arena

- judging by the callers, there's a VERY overwhelming majority in favor of this. Only one caller or email against the idea, probably 10-15 in favor of it.

Trimmy
11-30-2006, 01:23 AM
- a vote might not be needed if there's an overwhelming majority in favor of the arena



Bisonguy,

I have a question for you. What did you mean by this line? No vote needed by commision?

Thanks for the recap.

Bisonguy
11-30-2006, 01:32 AM
- a vote might not be needed if there's an overwhelming majority in favor of the arena



Bisonguy,

I have a question for you. *What did you mean by this line? *No vote needed by commision?

Thanks for the recap.


Public vote

Gully
11-30-2006, 01:42 AM
I'm just telling you what I expect the FDA to want.

IMO, I don't think the color of the seats matters one bit when every seat has someone wearing a green and gold shirt.


Another thing, if we can get the city to build the arena, perhaps we should let them pick up the tab?

We can use the 8 million for other projects.

If NDSU is ponying up a majority of the price tag, the Dome Authority will have no problem following NDSU's wishes in every aspect of the design.

This won't be a facility paid for by city taxpayer money. It will be paid for with a dome tax surplus, donations and corporate sponsorship.

Won't be paid for by city taxpayer money? Who do you think pays the dome tax? Don't get me wrong, I am for the expansion, but I just don't understand your point here.

sambini
11-30-2006, 01:52 AM
just do it+++

Herd_Mentality
11-30-2006, 01:55 AM
There will be no EXTENSION of the current tax for this that is set to expire in 2008. Some of the money would be from the tax surplus, but there would be no extension...which is why it's not going to require a citywide vote.

drewaely
11-30-2006, 02:01 AM
While I do think that with success comes more fans the fact of the matter is that with NDSU sharing the "flagship" name with UND there will never be a time when we will consistantly sell out more than 8,000 seats per game. (Hell, not even the t-wolves are averaging that).... Be careful with the number of seats. 8k should be fine.

The fact of the matter is that there is a VERY limited source of people to watch the games. Unless Fargo grows, State of ND grows, Western Minnesota grows or UND decides to cancel all athletic programs we will never have the interest to draw 10+ fans/game.

Bisonguy
11-30-2006, 02:17 AM
Gonzaga chose to build their new arena with only 6,000 seats.


Anything over 8,000 is a waste IMO. The Fargodome can seat up to 14k for BB if needed.

IowaBison
11-30-2006, 02:26 AM
less than 8000, lots of suites.

tony
11-30-2006, 02:31 AM
I definitely think that the upper limit is 8,000.

BisonVifte
11-30-2006, 02:57 AM
I think no more than 6000 we want to have a arena that will be full all the time to give the home court advantage. Which has to include teaching the fans that they are not in thier living room watching tv.

BigBison
11-30-2006, 03:11 AM
I say 8K would be good.

sambini
11-30-2006, 03:29 AM
++++++++++++

TheDoctor
11-30-2006, 04:03 AM
8 sounds like a good #. Cameron Indoor @ Duke is a little over 9

SDbison
11-30-2006, 07:02 AM
8000 - 9000 would be good. 10,000 better. Thinking 6000 to 7000 is way too small........the BSA can handle that now. I agree with Tony, back in the early 1980's I went to all the basketball games and the BSA was packed with 6000 plus fans (Askew put on a great show). Once NDSU appears in the tournamant there will be 9000 wanting tickets. 8000 or less is too small. Don't make the Fargodome mistake. The basketball arena will be around for at least 25 to 30 years.

Bison_Dan
11-30-2006, 12:18 PM
There will not be blue seats.

Woohoo! I sure want a place that is identifiably the home of NDSU basketball and blue seats don't cut it. Ideally, I'd like mostly green seats with yellow ones spelling out NDSU on one side and BISON on the other.

BTW, if this arena is built, I really don't see how they could put it right up against the FargoDome as that would block the western entrance in and out of the dome. Anybody have insight into how that would work?

I'm sure that the new arena will be build around 50 feet to the west of the Dome with a overhead walkway connecting the two buildings. It may go into the SW corner of the dome parking lot with a connecting walkway from the SW corner of the dome. In that location the students have good access from the south and it would save some parking.

BisBison
11-30-2006, 12:20 PM
build it for 10,000 with a second tier that can be closed off when not needed to keep the "full house" feel. This is what the Bismarck Civic Center does for smaller events.

NorthernBison
11-30-2006, 12:36 PM
The Forum Editorial this morning supports the idea. The only thing in the article that made me cringe was when they referred to our basketball program as a Division I-AA basketball program. WTF?

BisBison
11-30-2006, 12:50 PM
The Forum Editorial this morning supports the idea. *The only thing in the article that made me cringe was when they referred to our basketball program as a Division I-AA basketball program. *WTF?

I saw that too, gimme a break for crying out loud. There isn't even D-IAA for anything anymore. >:( Pretty good article, but damn the learning curve is long for some people.

drewaely
11-30-2006, 12:58 PM
8 sounds like a good #. Cameron Indoor @ Duke is a little over 9


8000 - 9000 would be good. 10,000 better. Thinking 6000 to 7000 is way too small........the BSA can handle that now. I agree with Tony, back in the early 1980's I went to all the basketball games and the BSA was packed with 6000 plus fans (Askew put on a great show). Once NDSU appears in the tournamant there will be 9000 wanting tickets. 8000 or less is too small. Don't make the Fargodome mistake. The basketball arena will be around for at least 25 to 30 years.

I still don't understand why people on this board would think that an NDSU program could EVER draw more than Gonzaga (6k arena) or Duke (9k arena).... Making it "small" is not a mistake. There is something to be said about having a stadium that is full... When there are limited tickets that draws interest in the program... It's simple economics. Supply v. Demand...

A few good examples (1 basketball and one not)
1. The Duke students CAMP outside of Cameron a day (or sometimes days) before the game. Since there is limited tickets they NEED to be there early.
2. Another good example.... Playsation 3... Why did people wait in line forever to get one? Because the supply was limited.

Building a arena that either "can be expaned" or 8-10-12 thousand seats is a waste of money and will ultimately make the games less interesting.

IowaBison
11-30-2006, 01:17 PM
right on, drew.

let's have a 300 seat cafe-gyma-torium.

we'd be sure to fill that sucker up every game.

Go_Herd
11-30-2006, 02:09 PM
I get the Fargo Forum paper edition to my door every day. *Had an article about the possible dome/arena expansion.---I'm to lazy to find the link, if someone would that would be great.

"No matter what happens NDSU will still have to renovate the BSA for basketball practice, wrestling, track, baseball and softball", said athletic director Gene Taylor.

Public officials on the propossed expansion
Linda Coates--vice mayor--"says it's an ideal solution"
Tim Mahoney--commissioner--"partnership with NDSU would benefit both parties"
Dennis Walaker--Mayor--"Addition will ensure dome's future sucess"
Mike Williams--Commissioner--"Wary about mone availability, wants public discussion"
Brad Wimmer--Commissioner--"Addition will keep Bison basketball on campus"

Walaker states that 12-15 Million from excess revenue from the Fargodome sales tax could be available for the addition.

"If you build it, they will come"

IowaBison
11-30-2006, 02:55 PM
there's a lot of truth in your last sentence, go_herd.

people will show up to watch bison basketball just because games are being played in a shiny new arena.

Jdubs21
11-30-2006, 03:07 PM
it would be nice to have a new arena but i just dont see it happening anytime within the next 10 years....i am sure we will just renovate the BSA which is fine...i think if we would sell out more basketball games we would get our new arena but when there is only 1500-3000 people at everygame that really isnt gonna spark intrest in building a BIGGER and nicer arena....if we want a new stadium we gotta give the support....sure alot of people will support the bison or say they do by listening on the radio and reading the newspaper but that doesnt put money in the athletic dept. pocket now does it? for god sakes next year and the year after i think we could be a hell of a team that can make it to the dance...and we cant even get our seats halfway full...so i say we need operation sellout for atleast if not more than half the games this year

Paulie
11-30-2006, 03:10 PM
If you're going to build an arena do it right and do it for the next 30+ years. That means a capacity of 16K.

tony
11-30-2006, 03:19 PM
You gotta like our optimism. A week ago, this idea wasn't even on my radar and I'm discussing the colors and number of the seats.

Tidbit #1: If NDSU built a 6000 seat arena and filled it every game, we'd rank between 90 and 100 in NCAA attendance.
Tidbit #2: NDSU averaged a whopping 1653 per game last year.
Tidbit #3: Average attendance in the Missouri Valley: 7200 per game.
Tidbit #4: Average attendance for ALL DI games: 5334.

If we get this thing built for the 2008-09 season, then our first DI class will get to play in it their final year. It would also be NDSU's first as an tourney-eligible DI school. All that combined with a conference schedule and probably USD and UND on the schedule would make for one massive bump in attendance I'm thinking.

Personally I'll be happy with whatever number of seats they come up if they have a clear rationale.

roadwarrior
11-30-2006, 03:34 PM
The number of seats will most likely be determined by the most important factor: $$$$$$$$$$$$

TheBisonator
11-30-2006, 03:47 PM
You gotta like our optimism. A week ago, this idea wasn't even on my radar and I'm discussing the colors and number of the seats.

Tidbit #1: If NDSU built a 6000 seat arena and filled it every game, we'd rank between 90 and 100 in NCAA attendance.
Tidbit #2: NDSU averaged a whopping 1653 per game last year.
Tidbit #3: Average attendance in the Missouri Valley: 7200 per game.
Tidbit #4: Average attendance for ALL DI games: 5334.

If we get this thing built for the 2008-09 season, then our first DI class will get to play in it their final year. It would also be NDSU's first as an tourney-eligible DI school. All that combined with a conference schedule and probably USD and UND on the schedule would make for one massive bump in attendance I'm thinking.

Personally I'll be happy with whatever number of seats they come up if they have a clear rationale.



Uh, Tony, we averaged 2,488 per game last year. I have no idea where you got that 1,653 number from...

drewaely
11-30-2006, 04:05 PM
right on, drew.

let's have a 300 seat cafe-gyma-torium.

we'd be sure to fill that sucker up every game.

not sure why you'd be an ass but i guess i'm not surprised....

Not sure why some on this board think that NDSU can ever draw more than 8k/game.... Let's compare other schools averages:

Goofers: 11,525
Michigan: 10,690
Oral Roberts: 6,296 (probably our best indicator)
Texas Tech: 7,279
Gonzaga: 6,367

These are all programs that regularly go to march maddness. Assuming that our program rises and becomes a highly regarded mid-major these numbers speak to what we can expect our attendance to be. Building an arena with 8,000 or more seats will make the arena ALWAYS seem empty. That would be bad and unfortunate.

Also, the average attendance at all Mid-Con games during the 2005-2006 season was 2,455. The Mid-Con tournament also averaged 3,875 per game.

tony
11-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Oops, I was looking at 2005 attendance to get the 1653 number.

drewaely, the reason that folks think we can get more than 6,000 is that NDSU averaged more than that over 20 years ago in DII. Since then, Fargo has gotten 50% bigger and NDSU has experienced some growth as well (and gone DI). NDSU could get 8,000 a couple of times a year I think. The real questions are: "What do the FargoDome folks need for their purposes?" and "What can be built while staying within the budget?" Believe me, I won't be complaining if they build a 6000 seat arena.

As for the Mid Con, NDSU and SDSU need to take the conference to another level if it is to become a good permanent home for us. BTW, Oral Roberts does average more than 6k per game.

DenverBison05
11-30-2006, 04:30 PM
right on, drew.

let's have a 300 seat cafe-gyma-torium.

we'd be sure to fill that sucker up every game.

not sure why you'd be an ass but i guess i'm not surprised....

Not sure why some on this board think that NDSU can ever draw more than 8k/game.... *Let's compare other schools averages:

Goofers: 11,525
Michigan: 10,690
Oral Roberts: 6,296 (probably our best indicator)
Texas Tech: 7,279
Gonzaga: 6,367

These are all programs that regularly go to march maddness. *Assuming that our program rises and becomes a highly regarded mid-major these numbers speak to what we can expect our attendance to be. *Building an arena with 8,000 or more seats will make the arena ALWAYS seem empty. *That would be bad and unfortunate.

Also, the average attendance at all Mid-Con games during the 2005-2006 season was 2,455. *The Mid-Con tournament also averaged 3,875 per game.


I dont know why you would say that ORU is our best indicator. They share the city of Tulsa with the University of Tulsa (which is a member of C-USA). In all actuality, none of the above examples come close to NDSU's situation.

SDbison
11-30-2006, 05:46 PM
right on, drew.

let's have a 300 seat cafe-gyma-torium.

we'd be sure to fill that sucker up every game.

not sure why you'd be an ass but i guess i'm not surprised....

Not sure why some on this board think that NDSU can ever draw more than 8k/game.... *Let's compare other schools averages:

Goofers: 11,525
Michigan: 10,690
Oral Roberts: 6,296 (probably our best indicator)
Texas Tech: 7,279
Gonzaga: 6,367

These are all programs that regularly go to march maddness. *Assuming that our program rises and becomes a highly regarded mid-major these numbers speak to what we can expect our attendance to be. *Building an arena with 8,000 or more seats will make the arena ALWAYS seem empty. *That would be bad and unfortunate.

Also, the average attendance at all Mid-Con games during the 2005-2006 season was 2,455. *The Mid-Con tournament also averaged 3,875 per game.

The answer is NDSU did have attendance over 6000 for many of the games during the early 1980's. Today at the DI level, and not counting holiday games that have few students, there is no reason 8000 would not be possible when this team matures in the next couple years. Add to that the fact that more Kansas State type games will be played at home, versus Furman types that nobody cares about. It will be intersting to see how many tickets sell for K-State. I bought mine a few weeks ago and the best seats were in row 25 back then. As far as the new arena goes much can be done with the architecture to have a slightly elevated section for capacity crowds (4K) with a lower ring with seating for 6K close in to the court. I believe someone once posted a photo of an existing arena like this.

SDbison
11-30-2006, 05:47 PM
right on, drew.

let's have a 300 seat cafe-gyma-torium.

we'd be sure to fill that sucker up every game.

not sure why you'd be an ass but i guess i'm not surprised....

Not sure why some on this board think that NDSU can ever draw more than 8k/game.... *Let's compare other schools averages:

Goofers: 11,525
Michigan: 10,690
Oral Roberts: 6,296 (probably our best indicator)
Texas Tech: 7,279
Gonzaga: 6,367

These are all programs that regularly go to march maddness. *Assuming that our program rises and becomes a highly regarded mid-major these numbers speak to what we can expect our attendance to be. *Building an arena with 8,000 or more seats will make the arena ALWAYS seem empty. *That would be bad and unfortunate.

Also, the average attendance at all Mid-Con games during the 2005-2006 season was 2,455. *The Mid-Con tournament also averaged 3,875 per game.


I dont know why you would say that ORU is our best indicator. They share the city of Tulsa with the University of Tulsa (which is a member of C-USA). In all actuality, none of the above examples come close to NDSU's situation.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

2006gwfcchamps
11-30-2006, 05:53 PM
If we're going to talk comparisons, there is absolutely no better comparison than the University of Northern Iowa.

Black Hawk County IA had 128,012 residents in 2000.

Cass County ND had 123,138 residents in 2000. (http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab01.pdf)

UNI has 11.2k undergrads and 1.6k grads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_northern_iowa)

NDSU has 10.5k undergrads and 1.6k grads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_State_University)

Both are in the upper midwest.


UNI just built a new oncampus arena with a total capacity of about 7k (about 6k seats).


Yet NDSU is going to build a new oncampus arena with 10k? 12k? even 16k?

Come on now...

8k is not unreasonable, but more than that...I don't understand it.

You realize that there is such a thing as having more demands for tickets than there are tickets availible, right?

According to some of you guys, the U of Texas should be building a 200k stadium right now.

SDbison
11-30-2006, 05:57 PM
Remember it is going to be a multi purpose arena too. Smaller concerts etc. I really think to adequately plan for the future the capacity, or potential capacity, should be closer to 10K. A 6K or 7K arena would be a mistake.

roadwarrior
11-30-2006, 06:04 PM
Its all about money people. They can only build what they can afford. There will not be any long term flow of cash for this project like the Fargodome has. Its a one time shot of money. Some from the Fargodome sales tax revenue surplus, naming rights, and NDSU. If you want an arena to compare to the one in Omaha that Creighton plays basketball in, we will never have it. I believe the Qwest Center costs upwards of $200 million. An arena in the range of 6000-8000 seats is a mid size facility, and that is what the Fargo area does not have. Unless you want to count the BSA.

IowaBison
11-30-2006, 06:08 PM
Remember it is going to be a multi purpose arena too. Smaller concerts etc. I really think to adequately plan for the future the capacity, or potential capacity, should be closer to 10K. A 6K or 7K arena would be a mistake.

the dome in basketball configuration seats 10k.

if we ever have that kind of consistent demand we can move over there.

drewaely
11-30-2006, 06:13 PM
Oops, I was looking at 2005 attendance to get the 1653 number.

drewaely, the reason that folks think we can get more than 6,000 is that NDSU averaged more than that over 20 years ago in DII. Since then, Fargo has gotten 50% bigger and NDSU has experienced some growth as well (and gone DI). NDSU could get 8,000 a couple of times a year I think. The real questions are: "What do the FargoDome folks need for their purposes?" and "What can be built while staying within the budget?" Believe me, I won't be complaining if they build a 6000 seat arena.

As for the Mid Con, NDSU and SDSU need to take the conference to another level if it is to become a good permanent home for us. BTW, Oral Roberts does average more than 6k per game.


Actually you are wrong... Here is the link with ALL of the D1 schools and their attendance...
http://www.ncaa.org/stats/m_basketball/attendance/2006_basketball_attend.pdf

Now that I have shown that i'm basing my numbers on something that's more than speculation... i'll continue. Oral Roberts IS our best indicator... Why? Because as of next year they will be playing an almost IDENTICAL schedule as ours. Why would we assume that we can draw more than them when we will be playing a schedule that includes almost the same teams
*note* Over the past four years, Oral Roberts has also played MANY basketball names (all of which are sizeably more popular than K-State). Some teams that they played at home that drew big crowds.... USC, Marquette and Arkansas to name a few

Regarding the NDSU teams of the 1980s... Yes, we drew many fans then. That was also in a different time. People are much busier now and there are more things "to do" in Fargo now than back then. While we might be able to draw an occasional crowd of 8k for a big game that means that MOST games will be 1/2 to two thirds full. Not good.

roadwarrior
11-30-2006, 06:16 PM
Also remember that those attendance figures from the 80's were estimated by the same person that had 19000 at Dakotah Field.

SDbison
11-30-2006, 06:21 PM
Its all about money people. *They can only build what they can afford. *There will not be any long term flow of cash for this project like the Fargodome has. *Its a one time shot of money. *Some from the Fargodome sales tax revenue surplus, naming rights, and NDSU. *If you want an arena to compare to the one in Omaha that Creighton plays basketball in, we will never have it. *I believe the Qwest Center costs upwards of $200 million. *An arena in the range of 6000-8000 seats is a mid size facility, and that is what the Fargo area does not have. *Unless you want to count the BSA.
The Qwest Center has to seat close to 15,000. *I have been there a couple times. *It is also built to accommodate hockey. *A close in seating arena without space for hockey should be able to be built for much, much, less. *Also, maybe the solution is to build the structure with an upper unfinished mezzanine where 10 more rows could be added to the ring later. *6-7K in the lower ring Phase I. *3-4 K in the upper ring Phase II . *Use your imagination guys, don't have to think small just to fit in a limited budget. *By some of your justification the arena should have a 4K capacity so that nearly all games are sellouts. * *

roadwarrior
11-30-2006, 06:22 PM
Average home attendance (for men's games)

76-77 2,050
77-78 2,788
78-79 3,112
79-80 4,250
80-81 5,308
81-82 4,385
82-83 6,057
83-84 5,327
84-85 4,873
85-86 4,314
86-87 4,820
87-88 4,679
88-89 4,667
89-90 4,440
90-91 3,409
91-92 3,767
92-93 3,456
93-94 3,464
94-95 4,153
95-96 3,265
96-97 3,235
97-98 2,827
98-99 3,180
99-00 2,607
00-01 2,365
01-02 2,538
02-03 2,869
03-04 2,440
04-05 1,654
05-06 2,488

SDbison
11-30-2006, 06:24 PM
Also remember that those attendance figures from the 80's were estimated by the same person that had 19000 at Dakotah Field.
Again, I was at the games back then. Most were as packed as the NDSU-UND games. I think 6000 plus is accurate.

SDbison
11-30-2006, 06:27 PM
Average home attendance (for men's games)

76-77 2,050
77-78 2,788
78-79 3,112
79-80 4,250
80-81 5,308
81-82 4,385
82-83 6,057
83-84 5,327
84-85 4,873
85-86 4,314
86-87 4,820
87-88 4,679
88-89 4,667
89-90 4,440
90-91 3,409
91-92 3,767
92-93 3,456
93-94 3,464
94-95 4,153
95-96 3,265
96-97 3,235
97-98 2,827
98-99 3,180
99-00 2,607
00-01 2,365
01-02 2,538
02-03 2,869
03-04 2,440
04-05 1,654
05-06 2,488
82-84 were the years I am talking about. *Around 6K average. *Those were fun crowds to be part of. *Hope NDSU basketball gets back to and exceeds that soon. *

2006gwfcchamps
11-30-2006, 06:43 PM
don't have to think small just to fit in a limited budget.

8 million raised to renovate the dome. Say 20 million extra taxes.

I think the 6k McLeod arena UNI just built was in the 30 million range.


I can use my imagination all day.

Imagination doesn't get it paid for.



By some of your justification the arena should have a 4K capacity so that nearly all games are sellouts.

I think most people on here have said 6k-8k.

Who said 4k?

WYOBISONMAN
11-30-2006, 08:08 PM
Also remember that those attendance figures from the 80's were estimated by the same person that had 19000 at Dakotah Field.

You mean those numbers were not accurate?!?!? ;)

roper
11-30-2006, 08:43 PM
The reason the Qwest center is 15,000+ seats is because Omaha needed an events center that could hold more than 10,000 for concerts and such. Last time I checked we already had one of those in Fargo. Same reasoning goes for the Wells Fargo Center in Des Moines.

8,000 is a perfect top end.

Go_Herd
11-30-2006, 10:17 PM
8,000 is a perfect top end.

++++Agreed!++++

how about we poll it to see where Bisonville stands on the seating?

Flintstone
11-30-2006, 10:31 PM
If I remember correctly the UNI facility was around 18-20 million and seats around 6500 people.

Looking at those numbers, a facility of similar construction in the 8000 seat range would cost around 25 million. (This is just a ballpart estimate and could vary greatly depending on actual construction)

NDSUFREAK10
11-30-2006, 10:45 PM
Remember it is going to be a multi purpose arena too. *Smaller concerts etc. *I really think to adequately plan for the future the capacity, or potential capacity, should be closer to 10K. *A 6K or 7K arena would be a mistake. *

Well then have it so that they can add seating if possible. I believe 10k is way too much. 6-7k will be alright. All we have had so far is 2,200 in attendence a game. (a magical estimate) But I will say that 8k sounds reasonable when we can get some names to come and play. Plus add the fact of possible NIT and NCAA Tournament births to get the interest flowing.

BigBison
11-30-2006, 10:51 PM
I say you gotta make it bigger or else whats the point of even building a new arena, if we are just going to renovate the BSA anyways? 7-8K hopefully would be 8k, I mean lets say down the road if we ever get a Big Ten team up here or a Big 12, that place will be packed! :o

2006gwfcchamps
11-30-2006, 11:12 PM
The point is that putting 8 million in the BSA is not going to do that much.

The bball team deserves a real arena.

drewaely
11-30-2006, 11:19 PM
I say you gotta make it bigger or else whats the point of even building a new arena, if we are just going to renovate the BSA anyways? 7-8K hopefully would be 8k, I mean lets say down the road if we ever get a Big Ten team up here or a Big 12, that place will be packed! :o


Yea, it we ever get a big 10 or big 12 team to come to fargo (however unlikely) the game woudl would be packed and most likely televised.

So what about the other 15 home games each year where there is 4 -5k there... It will suck when it's only half full. I love the ideas on this board but it seems like many are wanting to build a stadium to fit the demands of 1 or maybe 2 games each year. The atmosphere is only good if the stadium looks and sounds full.

NDSUstudent
11-30-2006, 11:39 PM
I say you gotta make it bigger or else whats the point of even building a new arena, if we are just going to renovate the BSA anyways? 7-8K hopefully would be 8k, I mean lets say down the road if we ever get a Big Ten team up here or a Big 12, that place will be packed! *:o *


Yea, it we ever get a big 10 or big 12 team to come to fargo (however unlikely) the game woudl would be packed and most likely televised. *

So what about the other 15 home games each year where there is 4 -5k there... *It will suck when it's only half full. *I love the ideas on this board but it seems like many are wanting to build a stadium to fit the demands of 1 or maybe 2 games each year. *The atmosphere is only good if the stadium looks and sounds full.

8k is perfect, when NDSU goes on a Mid-Con title run the people will come out in droves to support NDSU basketball. When building a new arena all the past attendance #'s have to be thrown out the window because DI basketball is alot easier to sell then DII hoops. And please don't say we only drew 2.5k last year in DI because until NDSU is in a conference and is eligable for the big dance attendance #s don't mean much since NDSU isn't playing for much and the schedule is poor as well.

roadwarrior
11-30-2006, 11:53 PM
Yea, if we ever get a big 10 or big 12 team to come to fargo (however unlikely) the game woudl would be packed and most likely televised.

Sat Dec 9, 2006 at 7pm, a big 12 team known as Kansas State will be in Fargo.

NDSUFREAK10
12-01-2006, 12:11 AM
And I will go to that game and lose my voice for the first time since when SDSU came to town.
(sorry, just miss football season. :'()

drewaely
12-01-2006, 04:16 AM
Yea, if we ever get a big 10 or big 12 team to come to fargo (however unlikely) the game woudl would be packed and most likely televised.

Sat Dec 9, 2006 at 7pm, a big 12 team known as Kansas State will be in Fargo.

Missed that one... Ok, so we are going to have a Big 12 team at the BSA.... Unfortunatly, to sell tickets in a stadium with 8000+ seats you need a good basketball school from a bigtime conference. K-State does not come to my mind when I think about basketball or Big12. Now, if Kansas, Texas, or other powerhouses came to town that might be worth going to.

Also, the attendance for these early games will be good. But like anything that you've seen before the novelty will wear off. 5 years form now if K-state were to come to Fargo they would NOT draw the crowd that they will this year (unless of course they have a very good team).

max_cool
12-01-2006, 05:41 AM
After reading this thread I fall more closely too the 6-7K stadium. I mean, ASU only has a 14K stadium and that's at a university of 50k plus students and a metro area of near 4 million.

Ok, it's not a great comparison since we have the Suns and ASU is not known as a BBall school, however, by shear numbers, one would think the arena would sellout, however this is a rare occurance and the average attendance last year was only 6,731. This is Pac 10, this is a major university. Univ of AZ (a perennial top 25 team) gets 14k average attendance in Tucson where there are no professional teams and a metro of around 1 million. to think that NDSU could sustain anything around 10k avg attendance is ridiculous, sorry.

6k is good, 7k max

tony
12-01-2006, 08:05 AM
Never thought of this before but doesn't Frost Arena at SDSU hold 9,000?

Is there a consensus that their place is too big? Or has their installation of a giant cowbell limited seating to 5,000?

NDSUFREAK10
12-01-2006, 12:54 PM
Yea, if we ever get a big 10 or big 12 team to come to fargo (however unlikely) the game woudl would be packed and most likely televised.

Sat Dec 9, 2006 at 7pm, a big 12 team known as Kansas State will be in Fargo.

Missed that one... *Ok, so we are going to have a Big 12 team at the BSA.... *Unfortunatly, to sell tickets in a stadium with 8000+ seats you need a good basketball school from a bigtime conference. *K-State does not come to my mind when I think about basketball or Big12. *Now, if Kansas, Texas, or other powerhouses came to town that might be worth going to. *

Also, the attendance for these early games will be good. *But like anything that you've seen before the novelty will wear off. *5 years form now if K-state were to come to Fargo they would NOT draw the crowd that they will this year (unless of course they have a very good team).

Kansas State is getting a lot of eyes this season. Come seasons end you will think Big 12 and Kansas State. New head coach and good players. I am sure people would want to see that. I would guess 8,000 people would.

NDSUFREAK10
12-01-2006, 12:55 PM
Never thought of this before but doesn't Frost Arena at SDSU hold 9,000?

Is there a consensus that their place is too big? Or has their installation of a giant cowbell limited seating to 5,000?
+++ ;D

Bison_Dan
12-02-2006, 05:13 PM
The jealousy over at ss over the possiblility that NDSU and the Dome might partner up for a 8000 seat bb venue is really getting funny. ;D ;D

SDbison
12-02-2006, 05:24 PM
All this talk about arena capacity.......like what we think will matter. Many have posted it all comes down to $$$. Yes and No. If there is a potential need for 1000 more capacity in the near future, or maybe expandibility for 2 or 3K down the road it should be taken into consideration. The actual cost delta and the fact that this will be a 30 plus year facility make this an important factor. Its not like the facility will be paid in cash up front. It comes down to something like this:
7000 seat facility, no expandibility......my guess 35 million cost
8000 seat facility......my guess 40 million cost
7500 seat facility with 2500 future expandibility......my guess 45 to 50 million dollar cost

Mr._Bill
12-02-2006, 07:17 PM
The jealousy over at ss over the possiblility that NDSU and the Dome might partner up for a 8000 seat bb venue is really getting funny. * ;D ;D

Somebody needs to tell the ss crowd that NDSU doesn't give crap about hockey and it is of no priority or significance to ndsu. *They despirately want us to have hockey for some strange reason. *Most of the stuff you read over there as ss is very uniformed. *Also, their take on DI and FCS is very off base and uniformed. *It's like reading posts from 5 years ago when you browse on ss.

NDSUFREAK10
12-02-2006, 07:19 PM
Exactly what I found on there. I am just going to let them find out that it is CS instead of 1AA anymore.

2006gwfcchamps
12-02-2006, 10:01 PM
All this talk about arena capacity.......like what we think will matter. Many have posted it all comes down to $$$. Yes and No. If there is a potential need for 1000 more capacity in the near future, or maybe expandibility for 2 or 3K down the road it should be taken into consideration. The actual cost delta and the fact that this will be a 30 plus year facility make this an important factor. Its not like the facility will be paid in cash up front. It comes down to something like this:
7000 seat facility, no expandibility......my guess 35 million cost
8000 seat facility......my guess 40 million cost
7500 seat facility with 2500 future expandibility......my guess 45 to 50 million dollar cost


And we have 15 million excess tax, 8 million raised for the BSA, and possible 2 million for naming rights?

How much does 25 million get? And that's without putting a dime into the BSA.

DIBISON
12-03-2006, 05:04 AM
The huge win by the Bison over #8 Marquette will fuel more national media attention for NDSU & Fargo and will only help with the new arena effort.

TheDoctor
12-03-2006, 07:59 AM
Lets go 10,000 after the HUGE WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BearsCountry
12-03-2006, 08:03 AM
Actually 10k if you are going for 10 to 15 years down the road would be smart. I think you guys could be an excellent addition to MVC, and that is the size of arena you need.

insane_ponderer
12-04-2006, 02:35 PM
I think i stated in another thread that I would like to ballpark it at 8k. I do like the expandable idea for those bigger games that the bison are sure to draw, not to mention some important Midcon Conference games.

I am also definitely in favor of keeping the BSA around as an all-purpose training facility etc. I think it is still an asset (even though it isn't pretty) it is still very functional.

Just curious if anyone has any ideas on what side of the dome this attachement would go on? Would we need to take current parking spaces to build it on, and if so would we need to maybe make some more room for parking?

Jeffdaryl3rd
12-04-2006, 02:44 PM
I love the idea of 10k, but an 8k would be fine with me. Either way, I don't want to see us cap the potential growth of our basketball program by not making it expandable. Also, as I have been saying every time this topic comes up, in addition to building a new arena I think the BSA should get a facelift (nothing big, just a bit of overdue upkeep). NDSU could use more gym space both for the athletic department and student recreation, and a remodel of the BSA along with the addition to the Wellness center would put us in good shape for the long term.

roadwarrior
12-04-2006, 04:29 PM
Just curious if anyone has any ideas on what side of the dome this attachement would go on? *Would we need to take current parking spaces to build it on, and if so would we need to maybe make some more room for parking?

They have said that it would be on the west side of the Fargodome. All of the mechanical equipment for the dome is in the basement on the west side, which would make a tie in for the basketball arena the most cost effective.

2006gwfcchamps
12-04-2006, 06:18 PM
Just curious if anyone has any ideas on what side of the dome this attachement would go on? Would we need to take current parking spaces to build it on, and if so would we need to maybe make some more room for parking?

They have said that it would be on the west side of the Fargodome. All of the mechanical equipment for the dome is in the basement on the west side, which would make a tie in for the basketball arena the most cost effective.

So that would mean that the dome and the arena would share the dome's west wall?

NDSUstudent
12-04-2006, 11:34 PM
Looks like there will be an arena update on WDAY news at 10pm.

BisBison
12-04-2006, 11:37 PM
Looks like there will be an arena update on WDAY news at 10pm.

keep us out of towners updated.

NDSUstudent
12-05-2006, 12:12 AM
I also saw on the Media Blog that its going to take around 15 million from NDSU to make this arena happen. If thats the case NDSU should do whatever it takes to get this thing done, even if the BSA fix-up has to be sidelined for a while to get it done. The basketball program has way to much potential to be stuck in the BSA any longer. Miles has done a great job on getting the ball rolling on making NDSU into a legit mid-major power and now its time for NDSU to do their part.

DIBISON
12-05-2006, 12:34 AM
The announcement last week that the Mayor wants to use excess tax revenue for an arena located on the NDSU campus was just huge news for the university. Now I hope that they can get the details worked out as I believe that a partnership between the City of Fargo and NDSU is the only way that a new arena could ever be built for Bison basketball. If the cost is split 2-3 ways is makes economic sense for all entities involved. The Mayor has proposed a 7,000-8,000 seat arena which shows good vision, as we wouldn't want Bison Basketball to be limited by too small of a venue. ;) ;)

NDSUFREAK10
12-05-2006, 12:50 AM
If they are too build it, what company would take control over it?
Industrial Builders like they did with the FFD?

Flintstone
12-05-2006, 12:57 AM
I would guess it would be a competitive bid process. There are a number of General Contractors in the area that will be very interested in this project.

NDSUstudent
12-05-2006, 03:13 AM
Looks like there will be an arena update on WDAY news at 10pm.

keep us out of towners updated.

Walaker said the city could give up to 15 million to make the arena happen, he also appointed two comissioners two work with the Fargodome on the proposed arena expansion. This was a positive report but nothing huge.

kchats
12-05-2006, 03:35 AM
The money raised to renovate the BSA will be used to renovate the BSA. Gene Taylor has said as much. Don't count on using the BSA money in a new arena. The only thing that may happen is the main arena will end up designed differently but I believe they will still have a basketball arena in the renovated design along with practice courts. The BSA will be renovated long before they start work on any new arena.

Jeffdaryl3rd
12-05-2006, 07:19 AM
Great news. I have been lobbying for a BSA remodel since about 20 minutes before I signed with NDSU.

IowaBison
12-05-2006, 11:26 AM
I would guess it would be a competitive bid process. There are a number of General Contractors in the area that will be very interested in this project.


I'm getting a new tool belt for Christmas, maybe I'll make a bid. :P

IowaBison
12-05-2006, 12:06 PM
Wondering what everyone's opinions was on suites in the new arena.

Yes/No. How many.....

Bison_Dan
12-05-2006, 12:25 PM
Wondering what everyone's opinions was on suites in the new arena.

Yes/No. *How many.....


I think it would be foolish not to build them. I'd bet anything you could pre sell them all before it's build.
It's alot of extra cash coming in every year.

Flintstone
12-05-2006, 12:49 PM
I would guess it would be a competitive bid process. *There are a number of General Contractors in the area that will be very interested in this project.


I'm getting a new tool belt for Christmas, maybe I'll make a bid. *:P

Are you implying that there are no local contractors who are qualified to construct this project? :-?

IowaBison
12-05-2006, 12:50 PM
no.

more boasting about my manliness.

Flintstone
12-05-2006, 12:54 PM
;D

IowaBison
12-05-2006, 01:01 PM
;)

i put up shelves in my garage, built some window boxes for flowers, and installed a paver patio this year.

building a 6,500 seat arena is the next logical step. the new tool belt is just for show for the Dome Authority.

NDSU_grad
12-05-2006, 01:49 PM
;)

i put up shelves in my garage, built some window boxes for flowers, and installed a paver patio this year.

building a 6,500 seat arena is the next logical step. the new tool belt is just for show for the Dome Authority.

That's impressive. I put up a shelf in my laundry room this summer AND installed a dimmer switch in my kid's room. It only took me like half a day. ;)

99Bison
12-05-2006, 02:51 PM
;)

i put up shelves in my garage, built some window boxes for flowers, and installed a paver patio this year.

building a 6,500 seat arena is the next logical step. the new tool belt is just for show for the Dome Authority.

That's impressive. *I put up a shelf in my laundry room this summer AND installed a dimmer switch in my kid's room. *It only took me like half a day. *;)

I hired landscapers to install a paver patio this year. That should cut me in for about 10M for managing.

99Bison
12-05-2006, 02:52 PM
;)

i put up shelves in my garage, built some window boxes for flowers, and installed a paver patio this year.

building a 6,500 seat arena is the next logical step. the new tool belt is just for show for the Dome Authority.

That's impressive. *I put up a shelf in my laundry room this summer AND installed a dimmer switch in my kid's room. *It only took me like half a day. *;)

I hired landscapers to install a paver patio this year. That should cut me in for about 10M for managing.



Ok, ok, can't cut myself short... I did landscape the entire yard, finish half the basement, build a deck, and sod a different yard this year...

2006gwfcchamps
12-05-2006, 05:48 PM
The money raised to renovate the BSA will be used to renovate the BSA. Gene Taylor has said as much. Don't count on using the BSA money in a new arena. The only thing that may happen is the main arena will end up designed differently but I believe they will still have a basketball arena in the renovated design along with practice courts. The BSA will be renovated long before they start work on any new arena.

You and Gene Taylor are dreaming.

Plain and simple.


A 7k arena alone (no offices, practice courts, etc.) is going to cost a min. of 30 million.

That kind of money doesn't just appear one day.


15 from the excess Dome tax. 8 from the BSA money. Still leaves 7 that needs to come from somewhere.


And that's without a single cent going into the BSA.



IMO we need to build a new indoor practice facility for all sports (indoor track and indoor field) and just level the BSA. The thing has seen better days. Well, actually, it hasn't: http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/archives/ndsubuildings/Bison/history.html


"The architects have also included special opponent seating, an afterthought design decision added 300 permanent seats, of which 160 have views obstructed by two major structural columns. The commentary noted that the numerous rooms contained within the building may "remind the average fan of the labyrinth" and that a "center for trained guides might have been squeezed in behind the facade"

Not really well designed from the beginning.

Jeffdaryl3rd
12-05-2006, 05:51 PM
Why level the BSA to build a new indoor facility. The BSA is not a good basketball facility or a good track facility, but with a new arena and a remodel including a new track both problems are more than adequately solved. It would be cheaper to remodel and we could end up with a nicer facility by modifying it.

RedRiver
12-05-2006, 06:16 PM
The money raised to renovate the BSA will be used to renovate the BSA. *Gene Taylor has said as much. *Don't count on using the BSA money in a new arena. *The only thing that may happen is the main arena will end up designed differently but I believe they will still have a basketball arena in the renovated design along with practice courts. *The BSA will be renovated long before they start work on any new arena.

You and Gene Taylor are dreaming.

Plain and simple.


A 7k arena alone (no offices, practice courts, etc.) is going to cost a min. of 30 million.

That kind of money doesn't just appear one day.


15 from the excess Dome tax. 8 from the BSA money. Still leaves 7 that needs to come from somewhere.


And that's without a single cent going into the BSA.



IMO we need to build a new indoor practice facility for all sports (indoor track and indoor field) and just level the BSA. The thing has seen better days. Well, actually, it hasn't: http://www.lib.ndsu.nodak.edu/archives/ndsubuildings/Bison/history.html


"The architects have also included special opponent seating, an afterthought design decision added 300 permanent seats, of which 160 have views obstructed by two major structural columns. The commentary noted that the numerous rooms contained within the building may "remind the average fan of the labyrinth" and that a "center for trained guides might have been squeezed in behind the facade"

Not really well designed from the beginning.

Who is dreaming, that is the plan. Don't you understand that the BSA remodel is necessary for all sports and will include the BB coaches offices and practice courts. Yes, some of the money that has been raised will still be used for the BSA remodel.

Uh, the new arena plan just came out last week. So if the City has $15 million, and then you get NDSU involved, and also the third revenue source would be naming rights. Didn't Alerus put down $10 million for the tin shed up north?? The task force was just appointed last night, give it time for them to put together a feasible financial plan.

2006gwfcchamps
12-05-2006, 06:22 PM
Don't you understand that the BSA remodel is necessary for all sports and will include the BB coaches offices and practice courts.

As I've already said in the thread, the new arena could potentially house offices and practice facilities at the arena in the same way that the Dome houses those facilities for football at the Dome.

That's the ideal plan. That's what I hope happens.


The farther we can get potential bball recruits away from the BSA, the better for NDSU, NDSU bball, and basketball around the world in general.



Yes, some of the money that has been raised will still be used for the BSA remodel.

What's next, NDSU is going to suspend gravity next week for a research project?

There are actual, physical limitations to these projects. We can't just make people give us the building materials for nothing and we can't make people put them together for nothing.


So if the City has $15 million, and then you get NDSU involved, and also the third revenue source would be naming rights. Didn't Alerus put down $10 million for the tin shed up north?

If we can get 10 million for naming rights, that would be great. Even less money NDSU has to put into the arena.

But NDSU will still have to put money on the table.

Where will it come from? Who is going to loan it to NDSU if it isn't coming from the BSA money?

imabison
12-05-2006, 07:05 PM
So if the City has $15 million, and then you get NDSU involved, and also the third revenue source would be naming rights. *Didn't Alerus put down $10 million for the tin shed up north?

If we can get 10 million for naming rights, that would be great. Even less money NDSU has to put into the arena.

But NDSU will still have to put money on the table.

Where will it come from? Who is going to loan it to NDSU if it isn't coming from the BSA money?
[/quote]

It seems to me that last year after the Wisconsin win the money came for the BSA enhancement. Perhaps with the Marquette win, and the Mid-Major ranking for the first time similar events will follow.

IowaBisonToo
12-05-2006, 07:25 PM
I think naming rights would be HUGE! That would take the onus off NDSU to come up with a large chunk of moola. Imagine what could be built by starting with $25MM right off the bat. It sure makes an arena that much easier to build.

tony
12-05-2006, 07:44 PM
Uh, the new arena plan just came out last week. *So if the City has $15 million, and then you get NDSU involved, and also the third revenue source would be naming rights. *Didn't Alerus put down $10 million for the tin shed up north?? *The task force was just appointed last night, give it time for them to put together a feasible financial plan.

I think Alerus paid $3 million for naming rights. However, it seems to me like they're paying it over 20 years or something. I wouldn't count on anything for naming rights.

IowaBison
12-05-2006, 07:47 PM
;)

i put up shelves in my garage, built some window boxes for flowers, and installed a paver patio this year.

building a 6,500 seat arena is the next logical step. the new tool belt is just for show for the Dome Authority.

That's impressive. I put up a shelf in my laundry room this summer AND installed a dimmer switch in my kid's room. It only took me like half a day. ;)


I'm not good with electrical. Do you want to join my bid as a subcontractor?

roadwarrior
12-05-2006, 07:50 PM
Newman Outdoor paid $1.5 million for naming rights to the baseball stadium. The opportunity for publicity for the "namer" for the basketball arena is much greater, thus I would think much more could be found.

insane_ponderer
12-05-2006, 08:01 PM
and it's times like these that I wish I was the owner of some ridiculously huge and successful company so I could pay for those naming rights.

tony
12-05-2006, 08:59 PM
Just out of curiosity, what would you name the place if you could buy naming rights and didn't have to worry about making it a business expense?

I think I'd want naming rights to both the FargoDome (if only to get rid of the 60-yard long logo that adorns the FargoDome carpet... ok, it's only 30 yards long... still it has to be one of the biggest carpet logos on the planet).

Hehe, originally I was thinking that I'd keep the name for the Fargo Dome or (maybe call it the Fargo Thunder Dome) and the littler arena would be the "West Fargo Thunder Dome. The only problem with doing that is that I'm guessing that the West Fargo Dome would start trying to claim all of the parking lot for future expansion.

Trimmy
12-05-2006, 10:05 PM
Just out of curiosity, what would you name the place if you could buy naming rights and didn't have to worry about making it a business expense?

I think I'd want naming rights to both the FargoDome (if only to get rid of the 60-yard long logo that adorns the FargoDome carpet... ok, it's only 30 yards long... still it has to be one of the biggest carpet logos on the planet).

Hehe, originally I was thinking that I'd keep the name for the Fargo Dome or (maybe call it the Fargo Thunder Dome) and the littler arena would be the "West Fargo Thunder Dome. The only problem with doing that is that I'm guessing that the West Fargo Dome would start trying to claim all of the parking lot for future expansion.





As a West Fargoan, I like that idea!!

westriverbison
12-06-2006, 12:26 AM
The first time I saw the "New Field House", BSA for you youngsters, I was a freshman in high school. I thought it was the best thing since indoor plumbing.

pmp6nl
12-06-2006, 12:30 AM
Maybe Sheels could Pony up some money?


---

BTW Taylor said they will still remodel the BSA, it needs to be done and will be done.

I heard the south Fargo arena option would cost NDSU very little $

roadwarrior
12-06-2006, 01:16 AM
I am very skeptical about that south fargo arena. Who has the resources to build that big of an arena without public support?

The last time that was tried was in Minneapolis by Harv and Marv, the guys that owned the Timberwolves when they started up. That arena, known as the Target Center, was built with private money, but even in a major city with a professional basketball team as a tenant, they could not make ends meet. The City of Minneapolis bailed them out years later and bought the building from them.

NDSUFREAK10
12-06-2006, 01:35 AM
I even live in south fargo and I don't think that it would be a good idea. Keep it on campus.
That is all I have to say on where to build it.

Jeffdaryl3rd
12-06-2006, 03:15 AM
Priorities:
1. Remodel BSA
2. Build new arena

kchats
12-06-2006, 04:18 AM
I agree. Get the BSA remodelled now. That will help with recruiting immediately for most sports since it also includes weight room updates as well. Raising the money necessary to build an arena that NDSU and Fargo would be proud of (we don't want other fans ridiculing the arena as a cheap tin shed). We have the money to remodel the BSA so let's do it.

Hammersmith
12-06-2006, 07:06 AM
Priorities:
1. Remodel BSA
2. Build new arena
++++++


The only thing I worry about is the timing of all of this. How long will the city's $15M be around if they can't get anyone to pay for naming rights and if NDSU can't come up with the money right away? I almost wish this plan wouldn't have been proposed for another year or so. It seems like NDSU might be forced into making a decison it's not ready to make; a decision that will affect it for decades to come. Oh well, happy thoughts.

insane_ponderer
12-06-2006, 01:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, what would you name the place if you could buy naming rights and didn't have to worry about making it a business expense?

I think I'd want naming rights to both the FargoDome (if only to get rid of the 60-yard long logo that adorns the FargoDome carpet... ok, it's only 30 yards long... still it has to be one of the biggest carpet logos on the planet).

Hehe, originally I was thinking that I'd keep the name for the Fargo Dome or (maybe call it the Fargo Thunder Dome) and the littler arena would be the "West Fargo Thunder Dome. The only problem with doing that is that I'm guessing that the West Fargo Dome would start trying to claim all of the parking lot for future expansion.



I do like the idea of the Thunder Dome. I would go with the Terror Dome (just for the public enemy intro music that would accompany it).

Jeffdaryl3rd
12-06-2006, 03:50 PM
I think that the school doesn't necessarily need to start building the new arena immediately to hold that $15M, but what they probably should do is work with the city to plan out when it will be built, etc. This way the city can plan accordingly and there is no need for tension between the school and the city.

2006gwfcchamps
12-06-2006, 05:14 PM
Priorities:
1. Remodel BSA
2. Build new arena

Couldn't disagree more.

The opportunity to get a new arena built for our bball teams, who deserve to play in an actual bball facility, not a makeshift basketball area inside a giant, ugly white box, trumps any other need of the athletic department.

If we have to spend all 8 million of the BSA money to get it done, so be it.

Jeffdaryl3rd
12-06-2006, 07:48 PM
Hmmm...facility for two teams or facilities for all the teams, including football. The bottom line is that if the school puts together a plan to do both facilities it can spend less money on the BSA remodel because they won't be outfitting it as the facility that is meant to be the home for the basketball team. Just do some upkeep and upgrade the weight room and athletic training facilities. The BSA will continue to be a part of the athletic department's future and needs to be spruced up. Priority #1 in my mind.

2006gwfcchamps
12-06-2006, 08:02 PM
So in your mind the main things that need to be upgraded at the BSA are the weight room and the training room. For sake of argument, lets also say that new offices for the rest of the coaches are also needed.

Which is cheaper: adding those things onto the new arena or remodeling the BSA for those things?

My guess is building new facilities at the new arena site is cheaper.


The BSA would need to stay for the indoor track. That's about it.

bisonaudit
12-06-2006, 08:16 PM
Even if the BSA s/b #1 you still need an answer on the FargoDome basketball expansion before you can determine how to proceed with the BSA.

Regarding the capacity of the proposed FargoDome expansion I don't see a reason to go beyond 8,000 seats. Potential basketball configurations for the current FargoDome structure start at around 9,000 and go up from there, so why build anything bigger than that. As the program expands and increased drawing power, we can borrow the U of M's approach for Women's basketball by putting the big ticket games in the larger facility, while retaining intimacy as we build our program.

Seating pipe dream:
100 VIP courtside
1st 5 or 6 rows around the entire court for students (approx 1,000 seats)
A vertical break allowing student to stand for all/part of the game w/o disrupting the view of those behind them.
8-10 suites

IowaBison
12-06-2006, 08:45 PM
1st 5 or 6 rows around the entire court for students (approx 1,000 seats)


right......

bisonaudit
12-06-2006, 08:48 PM
1st 5 or 6 rows around the entire court for students (approx 1,000 seats)


right......


thus "pipe dream" though I did include the courtside and boxes for the high rollers.

roadwarrior
12-06-2006, 09:16 PM
Recent games that I have attended, and where the student section was:

U of Wisconsin - end zone
U of Minnesota - end zone
Marquette U - end zone
Drake - dont recall seeing a student section ??

NDSUFREAK10
12-06-2006, 09:22 PM
I would prefer that the students stretch the length of the court like they do now and what they do at duke. You can't get away from them wherever side you are.

insane_ponderer
12-06-2006, 10:12 PM
I would prefer that the students stretch the length of the court like they do now and what they do at duke. You can't get away from them wherever side you are.


this is a good idea....the one thing that i would stress about the student section is make it substantially lower than the sections above it, that allows for students to stand the whole game and be rowdy without getting in the viewing area of the more reserved living dead.

Mr._Bill
12-06-2006, 11:21 PM
At Duke, Gonzaga and Michigan . . . the fans are not in the end zones they are constantly visible on camera. That is not by chance. That is so everyone sees that they have great student fans.

It just depends on how much priority the students get. Are they given premo seating along the sidelines, or do you stick them in the end zones.

Tatanka
12-07-2006, 12:57 AM
I would prefer that the students stretch the length of the court like they do now and what they do at duke. You can't get away from them wherever side you are.


this is a good idea....the one thing that i would stress about the student section is make it substantially lower than the sections above it, that allows for students to stand the whole game and be rowdy without getting in the viewing area of the more reserved living dead.
++

And we could steal a page from the old Hearnes Center at Mizzou: decibel meter readouts in the corners. not that the noise level at most games rises much above a bumblebee fart but it might encourage some home court advantage...

IowaBisonToo
12-07-2006, 01:34 PM
That would be sweet. Somebody could rig them, too, so they read out a little higher than what they actually are for a psychological advantage (a la the Detroit Tigers pitching radar gun).

NDSUFREAK10
12-07-2006, 01:39 PM
http://members.fortunecity.com/trekkiebeefheart/basketball/dukecameroncrazy.jpg

Seating like that...

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/5418128_7_1.gif

And students like that....

IowaBison
12-07-2006, 01:41 PM
wow! that would be awesome.

i don't know what it is, looks like three balls falling into cog, but i love it!

2006gwfcchamps
12-07-2006, 02:07 PM
Here's the picture.

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8660/dukecameroncrazykq8.jpg

IowaBison
12-07-2006, 02:53 PM
sounds great.

give 1,000 $500 seats to students, that's only $500,000 (about the current basketball budget).

::)

bisonaudit
12-07-2006, 03:18 PM
The student section at the BSA is currently court side along an entire sideline so I don't see where we'd be sacrificing much in the way of additional revenue by maintaining something similar to the current arrangement, properly scaled to the new building and student attendance expectations.

IowaBisonToo
12-07-2006, 03:44 PM
sounds great.

give 1,000 $500 seats to students, that's only $500,000 (about the current basketball budget).

::)
Duke has this cost worked into their tuition and fees, right? ::) ;D

2006gwfcchamps
12-07-2006, 04:54 PM
sounds great.

give 1,000 $500 seats to students, that's only $500,000 (about the current basketball budget).



According to the USDoE OPE, we spent $187k on MBB last season.

IowaBison
12-07-2006, 05:05 PM
yeah, because the OPE......

nevermind.


(also ope reports 716,000 for ndsu mbb)

2006gwfcchamps
12-07-2006, 05:42 PM
You're looking at the wrong page, then.

Here:

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7522/ndsuexptz9.jpg

2006gwfcchamps
12-07-2006, 05:51 PM
Hold on, I'm wrong.

If you click the tab that says revenues and expenses, it shows different numbers for expenses (including your $716k figure for MBB).


I wonder what operating expenses are.

IowaBison
12-07-2006, 05:56 PM
you're a good poster 2006gwfcchamps.

when i'm wrong i usually just refrain from posting for a couple of weeks. :)

2006gwfcchamps
12-07-2006, 06:11 PM
Any idea what "Operating Expenses I" refers to?

Scholarships?

NDSUFREAK10
12-07-2006, 08:21 PM
http://members.fortunecity.com/trekkiebeefheart/basketball/dukecameroncrazy.jpg

Seating like that...

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/5418128_7_1.gif

And students like that....

anybody know what happened to that photo up there?

2006gwfcchamps
12-07-2006, 08:26 PM
anybody know what happened to that photo up there?



Here's the picture.

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8660/dukecameroncrazykq8.jpg

NDSUFREAK10
12-08-2006, 12:07 AM
anybody know what happened to that photo up there?



Here's the picture.

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/8660/dukecameroncrazykq8.jpg


oh, ok. Good that you reposted it to show how the student section is, and how the seats behind are elevated.

sambini
12-08-2006, 01:44 AM
I like it+++++

bisonaudit
12-08-2006, 03:28 PM
Hold on, I'm wrong.

If you click the tab that says revenues and expenses, it shows different numbers for expenses (including your $716k figure for MBB).


I wonder what operating expenses are.

In the context of the athletic department not exactly, but in looking at income statements in general you start with revenue then subtract "cost of goods or services" to get to gross margin then the next section is operating expenses.

So if you're selling burgers "costs of goods" is your patties, greens, condiments, fries, oil, maybe the wages for the people behind the counter. operating expenses are management costs, rent, heat, power, maintenance, supplies that kind of stuff.

So if your product is Basketball I'd guess that scholarships are a direct cost but coaches salaries are operating. I'd think that travel would also be operating but I don't know for sure. These things are kind of amorphous and industry specific.