PDA

View Full Version : Band Wrap-up??



mebison
11-30-2006, 05:03 AM
This is like opening a can of worms in a playground, but how'd the band turn out this year? Other than the early discussions of red drums I haven't heard a peep. Is it a "no-news-is-good-news" thing that means the band did what they needed to, nothing more nothing less, or was everyone so busy watching the team that no one noticed the band at all?

Insiders, anything new or particular cool this year?

An old veteran's gotta know!

SDbison
11-30-2006, 07:30 AM
NDSU band......way too small to notice. Need to bring up to DI standards.

Bison_Dan
11-30-2006, 12:23 PM
Most of the songs they play suck!

WYOBISONMAN
11-30-2006, 02:16 PM
I thought the band did a great job, but they need more members. NDSU needs to really push the GSMB.

Till
11-30-2006, 02:39 PM
I think it was before the SDSU game I foretold that they would play Chicago at half-time. They did not disappoint in that regard. They need to get some music that people recogize though. No more 'bargain bin' oldies. If they're gonna play the oldies, play some good ones at least.

insane_ponderer
11-30-2006, 05:51 PM
I agree. I think music selection would make a big difference. I would like to see the size of the band increase, but just some different music to keep the crowds interest would be greatly beneficial.


On a side note, I was just curious how teammakes membership works, are there applications that give the different donation options?

I was curious because I think that would be an excellent way of raising money for the GSMB, if somewhere on the app put a box asking if you would like to also donate 20 dollars to the GSMB. Just a thought.

roadwarrior
11-30-2006, 06:12 PM
This is the purpose of Team Makers:

Team Makers is a non-profit organization committed to raising scholarship money for student-athletes and assisting them in earning degrees for a successful future.

sambini
11-30-2006, 07:08 PM
I thought the band did a great job, but they need more members. *NDSU needs to really push the GSMB.
++++++++++++++

insane_ponderer
11-30-2006, 08:17 PM
This is the purpose of Team Makers:

Team Makers is a non-profit organization committed to raising scholarship money for student-athletes and assisting them in earning degrees for a successful future.




fair enough...but a little cooperation maybe? *I am definitely not going to stand up and say anything about Team Makers needing to change, as it is above and beyond in supporting NDSU.


I think we athletics fans that want to see the GSMB at the athletic events should help out the music dept because with the GSMB they are providing us a service. *I really think that both NDSU athletics and the Music Dept. could really help each other out with this one and I would like to see more cooperation on both sides.

BigBison
11-30-2006, 11:11 PM
The Band needs to get bigger!!!

Hammersmith
12-01-2006, 03:47 AM
I agree. *I think music selection would make a big difference. *I would like to see the size of the band increase, but just some different music to keep the crowds interest would be greatly beneficial.


On a side note, I was just curious how teammakes membership works, are there applications that give the different donation options?

I was curious because I think that would be an excellent way of raising money for the GSMB, if somewhere on the app put a box asking if you would like to also donate 20 dollars to the GSMB. *Just a thought.
UND used the Fighting Sioux Club to raise funds to restart the UND Marching Band several years ago. I believe they were quite successful. As long as no one is forced into it(either Team Makers or GSMB), I can't see the problem. In the end, it's a matter of priorities. As long as the GSMB is viewed as a burden by the music department instead of an opportunity, nothing will change. Personally, it drives me nuts.

chuckles
12-01-2006, 06:06 AM
I think i may have found the answer to our shrinking band....

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=205260

This stuff is coming right from the students, needs to be looked into by some "higher up" at SU.

WYOBISONMAN
12-01-2006, 11:14 AM
I think i may have found the answer to our shrinking band....

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=205260

This stuff is coming right from the students, needs to be looked into by some "higher up" at SU.

Good information......that could well be the problem!

Hammersmith
12-01-2006, 11:23 AM
I think i may have found the answer to our shrinking band....

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=205260

This stuff is coming right from the students, needs to be looked into by some "higher up" at SU.

Rhetorical(and darkly humorous) Question:

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get rid of a tenured professor?

WYOBISONMAN
12-01-2006, 11:26 AM
I think i may have found the answer to our shrinking band....

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=205260

This stuff is coming right from the students, needs to be looked into by some "higher up" at SU.

Rhetorical(and darkly humorous) Question:

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get rid of a tenured professor?

You can always reassign them......ie: take them out of any position at all with the GSMB.......

insane_ponderer
12-01-2006, 11:38 AM
I think i may have found the answer to our shrinking band....

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=205260

This stuff is coming right from the students, needs to be looked into by some "higher up" at SU.

Good find chuckles. Obviously this guy isn't getting the job done. Definitely something to look into.

TriCollegeBison
12-01-2006, 02:06 PM
Well, if a prof. is doing so bad on one of these "entertainment" websites, then I would assume he/she isn't doing well on the course evaluation forms that everyone fills out at the end of the semester. *Therefore, people higher up would already know if or if not there was a problem. *That website is known by academia and its comments are generally dismissed. *Oh, and UND's band is still smaller than NDSU's *:o

WYOBISONMAN
12-01-2006, 02:33 PM
If the job isn't getting done, send him an email and ask, "What's up?"

His name is Dr. Warren Olfert and his email is Warren.Olfert@ndsu.edu

and while you are at it cc Joe Chapman at Joseph.Chapman@ndsu.edu

It never hurts to have the alumni ask a few questions. That website may be just BS, but then again, maybe not. Email those guys and let them know that the GSMB is important to you.

IowaBisonToo
12-01-2006, 04:30 PM
Believe me, there was almost a prof who got kicked out of Biol. Sci. after students went to the Dept Chair, the Dean of Math & Sci., and maybe even higher up after he had been such a Richard Noggin. And, I think he might have been tenured (if not, awfully close and well respected by his faculty peers). I know he changed initially but I think he's back to his old tricks. For those who might remember, his name was Dr. Fawley. Sounds like a very similar instance to me.

chuckles
12-01-2006, 04:40 PM
Well, if a prof. is doing so bad on one of these "entertainment" websites, then I would assume he/she isn't doing well on the course evaluation forms that everyone fills out at the end of the semester. Therefore, people higher up would already know if or if not there was a problem. That website is known by academia and its comments are generally dismissed. Oh, and UND's band is still smaller than NDSU's :o

This website, though may be entertaining for you, speaks the truth. They don't go out an bash profs on here to make them look bad. The profs that students enjoy and do a good job get good comments. I have had a few classes, and when I looked up the profs comments on this site, I couldn't agree more with them.
Something else that is generally dismissed are those course evals. Those are the biggest waste of time ever. The questions are so generic for every course, there is no way to effectly evaluate a prof.

TriCollegeBison
12-01-2006, 05:25 PM
I should clarify myself. *This website is known by another school across the river. *This school's paper even did an article about it. *The findings showed that faculty and staff generally dismiss the content of the website. *This does not mean that the information is true or false, it just shows that they probably do not use that information to evaluate teaching performance and if the content was brought up as a reason to dismiss or reassingn a teacher, they would probably ask you to try harder. *Also, I do not know how the evaluation forms work at NDSU, but at another school, it has a question that asks "give an over all rating of this professor." *I agree, the evaluations are pretty pointless, but I don't think the website has anything new that hasn't been seen before. *Regardless of the professor, I think there are many other reasons why this marching band hasn't taken off yet. *Some are pretty obvious if you think about it for a while.

Bisonips
12-01-2006, 11:00 PM
I don't think that the class evaluations carry much weight at all to be honest. Most of the times I took them the professors 'strategically' picked a day when half of the class decided not to show up, like the last class before finals week and they were handed out at the absolute last minute so the students just wanted to get outta there. I did see them 'work' one time with one of my professors my Sophomore year...I don't know if she retired, was let go, or just quit, but she came in with the evals the next class period and started reading some of them to us...they were harsh enough to make her cry, but she was no longer part of the faculty the next year.

I ran into a couple professors at NDSU that were probably on staff because of their researching abilities...very bright and friendly, just tough to learn from them because their teaching skills weren't as sharp...not knocking the Music Dept., but other than tenure, why would they keep someone around that isn't satisfying the students or the crowds they seek to entertain? Wouldn't that be a major measuring stick in their performance or teaching ability?

Looking around on that site, it was usually pretty accurate from my past professors...I'm sure every professor, no matter how great, is going to have at least one pissed off student write something bad about them. Looking at Dr. O's though, every one of the reviews is something negative...

02Bison
12-02-2006, 12:30 AM
Those online rate my professors things need to be taken with a grain of salt. Out of curiousity I looked at it after I had graduated from NDSU and from what I saw the opinions on there were usually only from people with extreme opinions of a professor. I saw people totally ripping on some of the best professors in the department simply because they didn't do well in the class. What really got me was looking at people saying a professor in an introductory course to their major was horrible. With all due respect, if you can't do well in an introductory course to your major, you probably are in the wrong major. It certainly wasn't the professor's fault.

insane_ponderer
12-02-2006, 04:14 PM
Those online rate my professors things need to be taken with a grain of salt. Out of curiousity I looked at it after I had graduated from NDSU and from what I saw the opinions on there were usually only from people with extreme opinions of a professor. *I saw people totally ripping on some of the best professors in the department simply because they didn't do well in the class. *What really got me was looking at people saying a professor in an introductory course to their major was horrible. *With all due respect, if you can't do well in an introductory course to your major, you probably are in the wrong major. *It certainly wasn't the professor's fault. *

Definitely true. You have to think that the only people that are going to take time to fill out those online surveys are either people that really liked the teacher or really didn't. I still like to use it as an indicator and I think in this case it may be a fairly accurate one.

WYOBISONMAN
12-02-2006, 05:01 PM
....Send some emails........ask some questions........

MizBison
12-09-2006, 09:53 PM
You know the one thing that I am hearing throughout the entire topic? It's that the GSMB - while the people in it are good - the band itself as an organization sucks...What's the one thing I'm not hearing though - how can these comments be made into suggestions that can make a difference???

For example, if someone thinks the music sucks - maybe that someone should suggest what kind of music they want to hear........

Or another example, if someone thinks the band needs to be bigger - maybe that someone should suggest quality tools to recruit band members at orientation......

We all know darn well that there are people from the band that read on bisonville, the only way that we can actively help them make it better is to be proactive.....right now, all I'm hearing is people being reactive.

insane_ponderer
12-11-2006, 01:12 AM
MizBison,

You are definitely right, some positive suggestions should be made.

Type of music: *As I think we all agree that the music sucks (Chicago, Beatles, Jefferson Starship) Something upbeat would be greatly appreciated. *Anyone that played pep band in high school remembers the basics like wipeout, land of a thousand dances, louie louie...etc. *While I feel that we should be above that level, we aren't and even those songs would be an improvement.

I am not exactly how we would recruit band members actively besides uping scholarships, and that takes money. *The real model would be to look at SDSU. *Do they have more scholarships for their marching bands?

I certainly don't have all the answers, and I don't expect a sudden turn around. *But I feel it does need to improve and hopefully we can all pitch in and figure something out.


(EDIT): I would just like to point out that the Beatles, Chicago and Jefferson Starship don't necessarily suck, however they aren't exactly "get the crowd fired up music".

Hammersmith
12-11-2006, 06:59 AM
Man, I really shouldn't do this but...

Since someone asked(using MzBison's points):

Music:
Two words: Tom Wallace. Three more words: Arrangers' Publishing Company. Wallace is one of the better marching band arrangers and the GSMB already has many of his charts. If they aren't using and adding to them, they should be. I've got two of their promotional CD's in front of me and here are a few of the tunes: Land of 1,000 Dances, Hey! Baby!, Mr. Pitiful, Rock the Boat, School's Out, Midnight Special, Disco Inferno, Mustang Sally, Mercy, Mercy, Mercy, Let's Groove, House of the Rising Sun, Shake a Tail Feather, I Saw Her Standing There, Back in Black, Tear the Roof of the Sucker(Give Up the Funk), She Loves You, Chameleon, Everybody Needs Somebody to Love, Vehicle, Night Train, You Shook Me All Night Long, Jungle Boogie, Rescue Me, and Come on Feel the Noize. That's more than a good place to start.

The typical marching band show consists of an opener, a ballad, a percussion feature, and a closer. Since the GSMB isn't given the full halftime, and since they don't use pit percussion, they drop the perc feature. The best shows are based on some theme. In our region, and with our audience, the most successful shows are based on classic rock, Blues Brothers tunes, heavy metal and disco/70's music. Patriotic shows work, if used sparingly, along with broadway themed shows(West Side Story), movie hits(LotR/Jurassic Park/Titanic/etc), classical(Carmen/Copland), and jazz/blues/swing. All of those also used sparingly(1 of any of those per year).

If you can tie the show to an event, all the better. The Cal Poly game on Veteran's Day was a perfect chance for a patriotic show(I don't remember if they did one, but I don't think so). Back in the mid-90's, we did a disco show of Jungle Boogie, Disco Inferno and YMCA for homecoming because one of the 70's-era football teams was being honored. Sure it was cheesy, but it fit, it was fun, and it was only one show. I think if they would get back to those Blues Brothers and classic/metal rock shows, the fans would be happier. What do you think, fans?

Also, in a standard show, the band is moving for all songs except the perc feature(which the GSMB doesn't do). I believe currently the band isn't marching during the ballad/flag feature. I'd like to see that change. You can do some nice marching during a ballad and, since the speed is slower, it normally isn't as hard as the opener/closer. (Hell, I'd like to get rid of the flag feature altogether, but that's just me.)


Bigger band:
Improved recruiting at orientation won't help. The improvement needs to be in retention. On average, over half the first-year members don't return for the second year. About half the seconds' don't come back for the third. Imagine if the football team operated that way.

Two choices to fix it: fast or slow. The fast way is to offer scholarships to students in the MB. You could use a graduated scale based on years in the band as a way to reduce attrition. Something like one semester's worth of books for your second year, two semesters' for the third and two semesters' plus $100 for the fourth. The problem, of course, is that you're talking about a huge chunk of cash every year. It's fast, but expensive. The slow way is to build esprit de corps from within. That would add the pride necessary to reduce attrition. The best way to accomplish that would be to improve leadership within the band. I would like to see the department recruit two or three recent graduates from Big 10-style marching schools and give them grad assistantships to run the band while getting their masters' or doctorates'. Olfert would be in-charge in name, but the grad students would be the real bosses. Then I would add intensive training for the section leaders to bring up the ability level of the older students. That would trickle down to the rookies and greatly improve the overall performance of the band as well as creating the needed esprit de corps. Not easy, not quick, not free, but it would bring results if handled correctly.



The problem with all of these suggestions is that they must be implemented at the faculty/administration level. I don't know if there's much the students can do from within. If I was advising them, I would suggest they take ownership of the band by creating a self-run leadership council filled with passionate, dedicated and charismatic students. They should watch videos of Big 10 style bands(not corps style - that won't work at NDSU for quite some time), try to talk with section leaders from those bands to get ideas, hold meetings outside of rehearsal to establish goals for each section and identify weaknesses, and really ratchet up the intensity of the sectionals at the beginning of each rehearsal. All of this is a huge amount of work and I can't guarantee success even with the best effort.


Well, I'm almost at the size limit for posts and I apologize for the dissertation. Obviously, I've thought about this quite a bit and I'm long winded at the best of times, so it's easy for me to get out of hand on this subject. The fact that this is my profession doesn't help either. If you've managed to read this far, congratulations and take your parting gift on the way to another thread. Pretty much any of them will seem exciting after this.

insane_ponderer
12-11-2006, 01:42 PM
Hammersmith,

that was outstanding, excellent vision and ideas. hopefully this can get to people in the right places.

tony
12-11-2006, 02:55 PM
Excellent post, Hammersmith!

Considering I think the FargoDome should be called The Brick House (quick before the Gophers take it back or Michigan steals it), I'm wondering how much the sheet music to some 30 year old song by the Commodores - if the band doesn't already doesn't play it.

Presenting: Brick House by the Commodores (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C719cRXZ9t0)

Hammersmith
12-11-2006, 06:02 PM
Excellent post, Hammersmith!

Considering I think the FargoDome should be called The Brick House (quick before the Gophers take it back or Michigan steals it), I'm wondering how much the sheet music to some 30 year old song by the Commodores - if the band doesn't already doesn't play it.

Presenting: Brick House by the Commodores (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C719cRXZ9t0)

Thanks for the kind words.

It looks like the only arrangement for Brick House is by Michael Brown in the Hal Leonard Easy Contemporary Series. Translation: the arrangement probably sucks. It's too bad since I think that might be a tune that could migrate well. That might be an interesting idea for a commission. BTW, I meant to mention that a typical arrangement costs about $50-$60(published, not commissioned) for a ~50 piece marching band. If you really want to stay within copyright law, you buy extra sets rather than photocopying.

The "How to get fired from your high school job in one easy show" Show:
Mustang Sally
This Bed of Rose's
House of the Rising Sun
Brick House

:) ;)

mebison
12-11-2006, 06:45 PM
Bigger band:
Improved recruiting at orientation won't help. The improvement needs to be in retention. On average, over half the first-year members don't return for the second year. About half the seconds' don't come back for the third. Imagine if the football team operated that way.

Two choices to fix it: fast or slow. The fast way is to offer scholarships to students in the MB. You could use a graduated scale based on years in the band as a way to reduce attrition. Something like one semester's worth of books for your second year, two semesters' for the third and two semesters' plus $100 for the fourth. The problem, of course, is that you're talking about a huge chunk of cash every year. It's fast, but expensive. The slow way is to build esprit de corps from within. That would add the pride necessary to reduce attrition. The best way to accomplish that would be to improve leadership within the band. I would like to see the department recruit two or three recent graduates from Big 10-style marching schools and give them grad assistantships to run the band while getting their masters' or doctorates'. Olfert would be in-charge in name, but the grad students would be the real bosses. Then I would add intensive training for the section leaders to bring up the ability level of the older students. That would trickle down to the rookies and greatly improve the overall performance of the band as well as creating the needed esprit de corps. Not easy, not quick, not free, but it would bring results if handled correctly.

This by far the best, most well-thought-out, most practical set of suggestions for band size I've ever read. I wish you could take over the band for a bit.