Mayport C-G Point Guard

[NDSBISON04]

Why didn't Craig Nelson from Mayport C-G get considered to play basketball at NDSU? I thought he was the second best player in the state after Tyler Koenig. The kid had a terrefic senior year in basketball and was second for Mr. Basketball. Was he NDSU material?

[BisonMav]

When I saw him play this year, I thought some teams in the NCC should pursue him. That didn't really happen. They may have been looking at his size, 5-11 if that tall. Northern State has a good basketball program. Nelson should do well there.

[NDSBISON04]

did NDSU or UND even need a point guard? looking at their classes they went after forwards and big men

[NDSBISON04]

Another thing of note: Ben Nemmers was 5'10". Craig is listed at 5'11''. Unless Nemmers was a lot better than Craig in HS I am not sure that size is that huge. Maybe the fact that NDSU was only losing Tenbroek was a factor. Maybe NDSU wasn't in need of guards considering their signing class. Other than NDSU and UND(who also didn't seem to sign guards), I don't know that Craig would really consider the other NCC schools. Here's a question: Is Northern State Basketball on the same level of college basketball as NDSU or UND? I know that Northern beat NDSU last year and almost beat UND.

[Bison_Kent]

NDSBISON04,

Northern State is in the NSIC (along with Moorhead St.). Yes, the NSIC is the same division as the NCC. In football, the NSIC is considered a lesser class conference but in basketball they might just slightly lower class then the NCC. Northern State has had several teams go far in the DII tournament so it really is a good school to go to.

[NDSBISON04]

thanx Bison_Kent for clarifying that. Maybe NDSU will have to really key on Nelson if he indeed starts in maybe a couple of years. I just wish this guy would be in a Bison uniform cuz he is very deadly to play against. A very fluid athlete who was unstoppable in all aspects of the game. it will be intersting to see how he does at the next level.

[Bisonguy]

Maybe NDSU will have to really key on Nelson if he indeed starts in maybe a couple of years.

NDSU will have a DI basketball program after this upcoming season. I doubt they will be worrying about Nelson.

[NDSBISON04]

HAHAHHA, my bad what was i thinking?? Never mind what i said about playing him then. Maybe the D1 move affected his recruiting as well. Maybe that's why they were looking for more big men, instead of a point guard like Craig.

[BisonMav]

Nelson was a great high school player. Nelson could have played for a NCC school. He does have a better chance for an immediate impact at Northern State than at a NCC school. The Nothern Sun teams usually give the Bison a good game. Moorhead State is not a pushover in basketball, like Football.

[SDSUFAN]

Another thing of note: *Ben Nemmers was 5'10". Craig is listed at 5'11''. Unless Nemmers was a lot better than Craig in HS I am not sure that size is that huge. Maybe the fact that NDSU was only losing Tenbroek was a factor. Maybe NDSU wasn't in need of guards considering their signing class. *Other than NDSU and UND(who also didn't seem to sign guards), I don't know that Craig would really consider the other NCC schools. Here's a question: *Is Northern State Basketball on the same level of college basketball as NDSU or UND? I know that Northern beat NDSU last year and almost beat UND.

Northern has been very good over the years, especially when the now AD, Bob Olson was coach. The current coach came from Lipscomb in Tennessee,but has had a hard time getting his system going. *NSU has played SDSU close too and for the past few years this home and home has drawn good crowds. I know at least one game in Brookings drew about 8000 fans.

The basketball programs at NSU are about the best they have. Northern has not played the NCC's close at all in football. USD with a *basement team beat Northern rather soundly.

[NDSBISON04]

Bison Mav,

What makes it easier for Craig to have an immediate impact at Northern and harder at NDSU or other NCC schools? What makes it harder to play at NDSU or NCC schools than in the NSIC. I know his HS teammate also didn't get a offer at NDSU.

[BisonMav]

In my opinion, the Northern Sun teams may not be as deep as the NCC schools. Not sure if that is because of the basketball budgets & money available for scholarships. The Nelson's may get more playing time, early on at the Northern Sun schools they went to. Notice the Bison have been getting more Jr College players. Players that have developed with playing time, and did not sit on the bench in the NCC. An example is 7-0 James Davis from Minneapolis Henry. Rumor in the Twins Cities is that Louisville coach Rick Pitino set him up in a Jr College to get playing time and develope, rather than sit on the bench in Louisville. Kind of got into a ramble, but that is just my take.

[NDSBISON04]

Thanks for clarifying that. I am aware of the fact that NDSU went after a lot of JC players and none were really guards. It is interesting that NDSU went the JUCO route for this year. Though, after Dobmeier and Nemmers, who are the real talented guards that NDSU got? Was Nelson as good as Dobmeier or Nemmers in HS? Are all 3 comparable?

[NDSBISON04]

the last question i will post on this topic is: Was there any offer for Craig at anytime from NDSU?? Did any NCC schools offer him a scholarship? The reason I ask is I think NDSU could use a point guard in a couple of years. I hope that I am not sounding redundant

[NDSBISON04]

what made Northern pursue him harder than NDSU?? Couldn't NDSU make room for him?

[SDSUFAN]

what made Northern pursue him harder than NDSU?? *Couldn't NDSU make room for him?

My guess and that only, and I believe the reason Northern pursued this individual more than NDSU was that he fit the recruting needs at Northern. Guards, particularily shooting guards are very abundant in supply so if Coach Miles, is filled at that position and does not need a new guard, I can see why NDSU may have back off on recruiting this individual. Its what they need in terms of recruits and what fans like you and I think are very much ignored and maybe that is a good thing.

If teams were recruited based on what some guy in the crowd thought, we would be in big trouble. Thats why coaches are hired. They know their needs in terms of recruiting and worry about filling the slots. What the crowd or fans thinking locally is not important. Fans watch the game, they don't play or coach.


Often the local flashes get passed over because, the local college has no immediate need for their skills. I think this individual is not the first to be passed over by NDSU and maybe not the last either.

[NDSBISON04]

That being said SDSU FAN, do u think NDSU basketball and Northern State basketball are at the same caliber? I know that they are in the same division. Is Northern on the same notch as NDSU, SDSU or UND?? As a conference I know that the NCC has teams that make it much farther in the D2 tourney than the NSIC teams, but is the school Northern at the same reputation level as NDSU or SDSU as far as basketball goes??

[tony]

Northern State is a good basketball school. NDSU leads the series something like 10-5. SDSUFan probably knows better the relative strength of each program.

I don't follow basketball that much - I'm gearing up to follow the team more closely in DI though.

[NDSBISON04]

Thanks tony, see i knew that Northern was in the NAIA for a while, but slowly moved up to D2 when they got better athletes. I think that NSU had their greatest year in 97-98 but as far as a basketball program i just wondered if they were considered as good or not as good as NDSU or UND and if say a given Person #1 went to Northern and Person #2 went to NDSU, would Person #2 be considered playing for a program of better prestige because NDSU is a bigger school.

[SDSUFAN]

*I think that NSU had *their greatest year in 97-98 but as far as a basketball program i just wondered if they were considered as good or not as good as NDSU or UND and if say a given *Person #1 went to Northern and Person #2 went to NDSU, would Person #2 be considered playing for a program of better prestige because NDSU is a bigger school.

NDSBISION04:
You are correct, Northern made it to the Elite Eight that year. I believe it was also Bob Olson's last year as a coach. The next year he move up to AD. They did defeat SDSU in the Regional Finals in Brookings, to a packed crowd of about 8000. *Like I said elsewhere, the coach that replaced Olson has had his problems in getting his program back to Olson's level. I think it has dropped off some. *Also in 1997-98, Mike Miller of Mitchell SD and now playing in the NBA with Orlando, had his two older brothers playing for Northern. Both were very good players but not NBA caliber and they were smaller maybe no more than 6'3.

Right now Northern can play with the NCC teams and occasionally win, but *as far as comparing players between NDSU and Northern, I think that with out a doubt NDSU has an edge. I dont know the players that well to make supported comment to back it up. *That is just my guessestimation. I do know that NSU needs a big crowd on hand to play with SDSU. SDSU has won in Aberdeen the past two or three times, and again they might get something like 6000 to 7000 for the games in Aberdeen.

Olson, was like Miles in one respect, and that was he took on a lot of projects on in developing players such as Miles will be doing with incoming Andrew Brown. *Olson recruited a number of South Dakota kids that SDSU often passed up. It takes some real skill to do that sort of thing.

I remember seeing a Northern game in Aberdeen as far back as 1958 and they had a very good team then. The arena on the campus at Northern is named after Bob Wachs, a long time coach. He was a character to watch during a game, always talking to players and loudly. Never scolding but was rather encouraging kind of guy. *Back then Northern dominated the SDIC league and moved on to a precessor of the Northern Sun League. *They have been playing against Moorhead, Duluth, Bemeji for a long time.

During the 1950's SDSU did not schedule them. Jim Marking, SDSU coach, in the late 1960's and 1970's started to schedule them and maybe that is what started their good following. The big thing in South Dakota for the smaller colleges is to beat SDSU. Thats a big deal.

Right now even though the teams at Northern are not at their apex, they continue to have good fan following and love the 165 mile trip to Brookings for a game.

Moving up to D1AA, I would hope this series continues, but the talent level *difference is going to grow and that game may be less of interest. * NDSU will probably want to keep them on their schedule as long as possible,too.

*Northern though D2 has not went out and done the fund raising and gotten corporate sponsors that *both NDSU and SDSU have and in there lies the big differences between Northern and the NCC and basically all sport programs.

[NDSBISON04]

Thanks SDSU Fan. See the reason why I asked was that Northern was ranked higher than NDSU in the NCC Region this past year. From what I would guess the D1 move will make it harder for Northern to compete with NDSU or SDSU. SDSU actually came off another great year as they were ranked as the #4 team in the NCC region. SDSU has a knack for bringing the best guys from South Dakota and even more impressive Iowa. South Dakota State is definitely of the better programs in the upper midwest. It makes sense about the type of athletes that come to NDSU or SDSu vs. Northern. The bigger schools are gonna have a bigger talent dropoff, because they recruit all over including Junior Colleges. I think it is harder to play at schools like SDSU or NDSU especially now because of the amount of depth on the teams. A school like Northern gets good athletes mostly at the high school level, but not a wide range. SDSU again can easily pass local flashes because they have a lot of options and usually the local flashes are most likely gonna ride the pine. As for Northern, I think that they will be heard from again, and although a small school I think that they represent the NSIC well and just need time to develop. As of recently Northern has won 3 of the last 5 meetings against NDSU so they have to a good extent played pretty well. I do think u are right though in saying that they couldn't beat a lot of NCC teams. The NCC conference is deep and loaded with a lot of talent from all over.

[JBB]

I think you have to tip your hat to the quality of the coaching in the NSIC as well. MIles came from Marshall and Mcdormit (sp) if Im not mistaken was at Northern? A lot of those teams can attract great players and coaches. They might be a fertile ground for NDSU and SDSU with regard to transfers. It has been for NDSU coaches. I dont know how SDSU does it, but they can sure put together the BB teams. I wonder what the NDSU/SDSU series record is?

[NDSBISON04]

JBB, I would guess that SDSU leads the series, but that is only my guess.

[SDSUFAN]

I think you have to tip your hat to the quality of the coaching in the NSIC as well. *MIles came from Marshall and Mcdormit (sp) if Im not mistaken was at Northern? *A lot of those teams can attract great players and coaches. *They might be a fertile ground for NDSU and SDSU with regard to transfers. *It has been for NDSU coaches. *I dont know how SDSU does it, but they can sure put together the BB teams. *I wonder what the NDSU/SDSU series record is?

JBB:
McDermott played his ball at Northern Iowa, and was an assistant to Rich Glas at UND, when they had Vonesh, Galseth and real bunch of players. McDermott, in my opinion made Glas look like a better coach than he is. McDermott left UND and went to Wayne State, Nebraska where he turned around a real poor program into a regional contender. They did host the regional in Wayne one year. The field house at Wayne is kind of small, even has a stage like you used see a lot in high school gyms. Apparently the Drama Dept did or still may do plays right beside the ball court.
That being said, Glas has not had a real good team since McDermott left. If he had stayed at NDSU, he would have had as good or maybe a better program than Miles, because McDermott is good at recruiting and has a network that matches Biliteier now at Augie.

Miles on the other hand is a very good coach and a good recruiter too. He is a native of Doland South Dakota, the same town that produced Hubert Humphrey. Miles knows his stuff and he did a bang up job at Southwest State. I am a Miles fan and wish him the best at NDSU.

I guess I have just been a little more impressed with McDermott who was also a finalist at SDSU when we hired Scott Nagy. The difference here is we knew Nagy and what he could do.

I guess my comment is that I dont think McDermott has been connected with Northern State (SD). I sure he has coached against them though and that being several times.

One side note, and that is a UNI tranfer name Jura about 6-7 is going to UN-Kearney. He is from Columbus and he and a guy named Kappels who played for UNO this year, lead Columbus Lakeview to two state championships. Jura will really compliment a very good Kearney team. Those guys are small but quick and very fundmenatally sound. Also playing on Kearney's floor is tough, they have great fans. Its no surprise that they lead the nation in attendence. Watch out for them again next year. The one thing they did not have was post players with size, and now they will have one post player with Jura.

[tony]

JBB, I would guess that SDSU leads the series, but that is only my guess.

Oddly enough, NDSU leads that series even though SDSU is a better program now.

I found out the Bison basketball media guides are online at www.gobison.com. (http://www.gobison.com/mens/basketball/mediaguide/)

[NDSBISON04]

I agree about Glas, SDSU Fan. They have some major work to do next year with only 1 returning starter. UND had a good year this year, but I think that their future is uncertain. I am uncertain about McDermott, but I do remember him with that Wayne State program. That program did make some noise with McDermott as the general. The cool thing about SDSU is that even though the school is really deep, the coaching staff has a great relationship with the players. SDSU has done a good job of recruiting in the state of Iowa and finding players to fufill immediate and less immediate roles. Hey SDSU Fan, do u know if your team ever recruited Kyle Schwan?? I hear he was really good from the state of South Dakota and if SDSU was ever involved with his recruitment. I also assume that SDSU passes alot on local flashes.

[NDSBISON04]

SDSU Fan, the reason I ask is I have heard taht he had D1 offers and I think he had good AAU play. I know SDSU went after Iowa guys, but did they back off Schwan??

[SDSUFAN]

NDBISON04:
You got me on the Schwan kid. To be totally honest, I have not heard of him. That is not say that Scott Nagy and his assistant Troy Larson, have not heard of him and what they have to offer to Schwan remains to be seen. If this kid fits the bill and we need him, I am sure Scott and Troy will be knocking on his door. Going D1 will certainly not hurt our chances.

Where has Schwan played basketball in SD? Sioux Falls?
I am stumped on this one.

[NDSBISON04]

SDSU Fan, Kyle Schwan actually graduated this past year. He decided to attend Northern University. All I know is that SDSU, NDSU, and a number of d1 schools were looking at him. He attended Aberdeen Roncalli so maybe he isn't from your area. He played summer ball for the Dakota Schoolers and averaged around 23 points per game in high school. Maybe the coaching staff was interested with him as well as a lot of other guys . Maybe he was just one of many guys they were looking at.
As for Craig Nelson(the other kid i asked u about), Northern, Concordia, Jamestown College, Minot State is what he considered. NDSU and UND were also interested, according to his coach and dad. My guess would be is that they(NDSU/UND) offered, but maybe like SDSU, NDSU was looking at a lot of players and Craig was probably looking to play immediately at smaller schools.

[SDSUFAN]

NDBISON04

If Schwan played with Dakota Schoolers, I am sure Nagy and Larson got a good look at him and maybe it was Schwan's choice to stay in Aberdeen too. I sure Meyer the Northern coach made every effort he needed to to to get the kid to sign. Local kids help the fan following at NSU as much as any one else.

I read in the Argus Leader that *USD's Josh Mueller's dad is the coach of the Dakota Schoolers. If so I dont think Mueller's dad would have help SDSU at all. That whole family has no love for SDSU.

The reason SDSU fans are so hard on Josh Mueller is because of his attitude, and Dad has had a great of influence on that matter. The Senior Mueller is a coach of West Lyons Central just outside of Sioux Falls. *In high school, he allowed his son to taunt the crowd from the basketball floor during the state tournament which was on tV so Mueller when he got to USD was very much dispised by SDSU and others. I understand the Nodak fans has sensed a attitude problem with Mueller. Not surprised at all.

As far as SDSU recruiting, Schwan *I am sure they were very interested. Troy Larson, Nagy's assistant came from Morningside College and probably has a very extensive network around the state of Iowa and apparently he got what we needed in Iowa.

I find it interesting that USD did not succeed in recruiting Schwan either. *Boots knows what he wants and is a great coach, but if he could not get him either, that tells me that Schwan wanted to stay home in Aberdeen. Mueller's dad would have pointed Schwan in that direction.

One red shirt player for SDSU who you will get to know this coming season is Andy Kleinjan, from Volga and he will help fill Frost arena with local fans. So we havent passed up the locals completely. Volga is 7 miles west of Brookings.

[SDSUFAN]

One short footnote to my previous post. NDBison04 mentioned that Schwan averaged 23 points per game.
Nagy's philosphy is defense and rebounding win games. So scoring abilities are somewhat secondary in his mind, but I am sure that the defense skills was suffient to go after hime. Some times those D1 interest is not much more than a letter from the school. Its kind of hard to tell what significance that really was. Most of the SD kids who get solid offers usually take them. i.e Reiner from Tripp SD at U of Iowa.

[NDSBISON04]

SDSU FAN, I believe that SDSU offered, but maybe there was some misque. I do know that coaches wanted him to play d1 basketball. THe 23 points per game thing i added really wasn't significant. I wasn't trying to imply anything. I too wondered why he would go to Northern if SDSU would have indeed offered. SDSU has brought in some talent though and that's for sure.
SDSU Fan, Do coaches ever recruit people to walk-on?? Craig Nelson considered Northern, Jamestown College, Minot State, St. Johns. NDSU and UND were also interested. This is what he said at spring signing. Does it look like NDSU offered or were looking for him to walk on??Just kind of make a guess to the best of your ability.

[SDSUFAN]

NDSBISON04

I can only say the reason and I am guessing here that Scwhan picked NSU over SDSU is the playing before a home crowd or maybe there might have been an academic major that SDSU did not have but is offered at NSU. Academics sometimes figure into the mix.

I know most of the walkons at SDSU come about after the recruiting is complete and the kids come to the coach and ask for a tryout with some of the squad. They do this work out with the regular recruits when they visit the camp. I guess Nagy makes a judgement based on how they do in this tryout workout session. I dont think he has recruited a walk-on that I know of. Walkon such as Jarred Gass, Luke Creiver and Hokansen got a great deal of playing time last season due to injuries etc. They will still fill out the roster for next year, but may not get as much playing time. Nagy feels he can count on them for a given number of minutes, but not for a whole. Jared Gass improved very much and he is from Desmet SD, 40 miles west of Brookings. Creiver is from Sioux Falls and Hokanson is from Watertown Mn. and not Watertown SD.

If as you say SDSU offered and he refused, then I guess he is real talented player, but its got to be the home crowd that he wants to play for.

[NDSBISON04]

Thanks SDSU Fan, I do specifically remember it saying that Schwan was offered. I think u could be right about the home crowd. SDSU still has some good athletes to make the d1 jump and it should be interesting to see how they do and maybe Schwan was scared about playing time. You were talking about depth and how much SDSU had, and that could have been a factor. high school and college are not the same and playing at the SDSU level might make him a small fish in a big pond. SDSU, like I said finds a way to find roles for immediate and less-immediate positions very well though.

So u must be implying that NDSU was looking at Craig Nelson as a serious candidate for a scholarship, if they said they were interested(i understand that u don't follow NDSU that closely and are probably not any more familar with this situation than I am). Somebody told me that Miles really liked Craig, but he thought that NDSU offered him to walk on(it was only his guess). To me that wouldn't make sense especially during spring signing period. I am assuming that when Craig's dad named the schools that he considered and then said NDSU and UND were interested, he meant that they offered too or were looking at him seriously. the reason why I assumed that his dad mentioned NDSU and UND last was because maybe Craig wanted to play for smaller schools, as can seen on that list. I, like u assumed that if he were to walk on, coaches wouldn't ask him to unless he had a scholarship from something else especially when NDSU wasn't even close to being done getting signatures of letter of intent.

[SDSUFAN]

NDSBISON04:
Most of the coaches in the NCC know after the first round robin, where their squad stands with the rest of the conference. Their needs in terms of recruiting are pretty well defined by seniors on the squad and the weaknesses of the current squad. I think at that point they have prioritized what type of players they need. In Nelson's case, they may have seen him as having potential, but not capable of picking up where Denver TenBroek left off. TenBroek was a great player in my opinion and is hard to replace. They may have held his scholarship spot open for a Juco or a more talented player out of high school. That is one more skilled than the Nelson kid you have asked about. What they probably saw in Nelson, was a young man with potential, but would need to red shirt and pick up on a number skills. So if they felt they needed to save their scholarships for more skilled and ready to play players such as JUCO;s, I can see that offering a walkon was the only thing left to offer.

I know a number of Brookings fans can not figure why Matt Hammer from Elkton got away from Nagy and went to NSU. The rumor is that he kept telling Nagy he had D1 potential and he was waiting to see what he would receive. Elkton by the way is 20 miles east of Brookings and about on the Minnesota line. Nagy in the meantime saw Kleinjan in a allstar game and was impressed and he got the scholarship. Kleinjan red shirted this year and will be ready to play. My guess the Nelson kid you are asking about may have been in a similar situation.

So what these kids say and how they react to offers by various schools often detemines what they get in terms of a firm offer, Hammer got nothing from SDSU and proudly announced he was going to Northern.

[NDSBISON04]

SDSU Fan, Andrew Kleinjan was State Player of the Year in 2002 for South Dakota so he must have been real good. Nagy offering him doesn't seem surprising at all and I don't know much about Hammer, but Kleinjan might have fit more. He did take a redshirt too. SDSU picked their guy and probably has no regrets. I wonder how redshiritng works. I bet u they were looking for Nelson to redshirt, but wouldn't they give him scholarship after the redshirt season, i do remember u saying that Nagy never recruited walk-ons, but how woudl this situation would be better?

SDSU Fan, I think you probably are right. Craig Nelson plays point guard so I doubt that it will really affect the replacement of Denver Tenbroek though. They were most likely looking at him to redshirt, but I am unsure about offering. How does redshirting work?? You said that Andrew Kleinjan got a scholarship, but redshirted, was that similar here. Would they offer him to walk on if he didn't want to redshirt or did they want him to redshirt and walk on in your guestimation?

[SDSUFAN]

Redshirting means you can practice, but at game time, you sit on the bench. The minute the coach puts the player in the game, its a year of eligibilty down the drain even if its 2 seconds left in a game.

Most of those at SDSU usually sit in street clothes and dont even put a uniform and warmup on. *The only exception was Matt Jones for the Regional in Kearney.
He played as a true freshman, and last year was a red shirt year due to illness. Redshirting preserves eligibilty and I dont know what if any relationship it has with Financial Aid.
Matt dressed for the Regional and went through warmups with the rest of the team. *Matt was finally starting to shake his mono I guess and should be back in full strength this season. *His girlfriend Sarita DeBoer a reserve post player on the SDSU women had a bad ankle injury and also missed most of the season. Sarita would have been additonal post backup. The NC was thin at that position, but somehow we got the first prize.

[NDSBISON04]

SDSU Fan, I already knew that much about Redshirting, but i didn't know how it affected scholarship situations, but i am pretty sure it isn't any different at any college. No further questions your honor.

[NDSBISON04]

tony, do u know of NDSU recruiting Kyle Schwan?