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Bisonfan1234
03-21-2004, 09:57 PM
... playing basketball games in the dome?!

After seeing the atmosphere at the Dome for the state B games, i am left dumbfounded as to why we still play in that delappitated box!!

If we were to do this, i think we'd have to keep the magic carpet turf for football, however.

Although i wonder if there could be such a thing as field turf M.C.? I suppose it would have to exclude the rubber bits that they put in, but so what? Hmm...i should email fieldturf and ask them if they've ever considered such a thing.

BisonFan
03-22-2004, 01:26 AM
They've done it and the atmosphere was dead!

WYOBISONMAN
03-22-2004, 05:13 PM
The dome is not a good BB site. Lots of folks are complaining about the atmosphere at the class B tourney and it is possible it may not go back to Fargo.

JBB
03-22-2004, 05:22 PM
The Dome is being used as a political football. Many Class B schools resent Fargo getting the games. They feel it should be in a city that better represents the interests of Class B year around, not just at tourny time. If the atmosphere in the Dome is bad its because of uptight fans not the building. Thats the problem with football too.

Bisonfan1234
03-22-2004, 05:27 PM
Well from what i saw on tv the thing was packed and very loud!


They feel it should be in a city that better represents the interests of Class B year around, not just at tourny time.

Could you explain this a little better? What city does represent class B year round? They should be damn happy it's in fargo. It gives them an excuse to get away from their little villages and visit the big city. They can also go to the mall and buy stuff that they can't get elsewhere.


If the atmosphere in the Dome is bad its because of uptight fans not the building. Thats the problem with football too.

I agree.

BisonMav
03-22-2004, 05:46 PM
Probably has more to do with location, especially with the western fans. *Class B fans like centralized Bismarck and Minot. *

WYOBISONMAN
03-22-2004, 05:56 PM
The people in the West don't like going to Fargo for tournaments. It probably makes more sense to host more of those events in Bismarck and Minot due to the central location of each town.

Herd_Mentality
03-22-2004, 05:57 PM
Which is a laugher....Minot being centrally located is like saying ND is on the Eastern Seaboard.

D
03-22-2004, 06:33 PM
The Class B folks are pissing me off right now. First they complain about the private schools getting into "their" tournament because they "recruit", and they are unhappy with the atmosphere at the tournament at the Fargodome. Here is a thought, if the schools would produce better teams perhaps the private schools wouldn't be in the tournament. It has nothing to do with recruiting, and as McFeeley pointed out, 3/4 private schools lost in the first round. 3 classes in ND for basketball simply would not work. The middle class would represent fewer teams then the current Class A does, which is already way too small. These folks need to stop trying to change the rules just so that their inferior team has a chance to get to the state tournament.

JBB
03-22-2004, 06:51 PM
...These folks need to stop trying to change the rules just so that their inferior team has a chance to get to the state tournament. *

Kind of sounds like the D2 doesnt it? Inferior programs trying to change rules to make themselves more competitive with a playoff chance.

D
03-22-2004, 07:06 PM
Kind of sounds like the D2 doesnt it? *Inferior programs trying to change rules to make themselves more competitive with a playoff chance.


It does a bit, but it also can sound like DI, but that isn't the discussion.

JBB
03-22-2004, 07:27 PM
I dont get the connection to DI. *Im not aware of any DI programs attempting to water down rules making competition easier for them. *

The class B group on the other hand is embroiled in something very similar to D2. *They have programs entering that arent really competitive and, at the same time are trying to establish their own identity seperate from Fargo and Class A ball. *Of course moving into class A isnt a choice, I believe membership is established by enrollment.

West Fargo is one program that moved up from Class C to Class B finally to Class A. *they were a strong competitor in the lower divisions but had trouble when they moved to class A. *Since the move in the early 60's it wasnt until the last 10 years or so that the Packers have truly emerged as a Class A power-house. *Class B might be in for some of the same suprises as the private schools become a little more acclimated to the Class B environment. *

BisonMav
03-22-2004, 07:31 PM
North Dakota used to have 3 classes A,B and C.
I still like the two class system. The Minnesota basketball tourney is not as popular since they "leveled the playing field" into 4 classes.

D
03-22-2004, 07:37 PM
I dont get the connection to DI. *Im not aware of any DI programs attempting to water down rules making competition easier for them. *



It may be time to open up your eyes then. The 5/8 rule is a huge controversy in D1 basketball right now. Look it up, it is dividing the have's and have-nots (big-time schools and mid to low major schools) of college basketball. It gives small schools a clear advantage and is responsible in large part for the partity right now in college basketball, inferior programs pushed for the rule change to make themselves more competitive with a better postseason shot. The big-time coaches want the rule gone while the have-nots want to keep it in place.

MN_BISONS
03-22-2004, 08:00 PM
BisonMav is right on the money here. ND class B schools need look no further than east of the Red River to see what watering down the classes will do to your state tournament. If class B listens to these whiners from the western side of the state, you might as well just give everyone a trophey at the beginning of the year and just save yourself the trouble because the idea of 3 classes will be a complete flop. Nothing compares to the Class B tournament in the state other than Bison-Sioux in football and that's gone, so please leave this one alone.

As for people from the west complaining about the long drive to Fargo, they can stick that one where the sun doesn't shine too. If my high school made it to state, it would be a six hour drive to Bismarck and about four and a half to Minot, so as they would say in the west, cowboy up and stop your bitching!

BisonMav
03-22-2004, 08:05 PM
It may be time to open up your eyes then. *The 5/8 rule is a huge controversy in D1 basketball right now. *Look it up, it is dividing the have's and have-nots (big-time schools and mid to low major schools) of college basketball. *It gives small schools a clear advantage and is responsible in large part for the partity right now in college basketball, inferior programs pushed for the rule change to make themselves more competitive with a better postseason shot. *The big-time coaches want the rule gone while the have-nots want to keep it in place. *


Do you have examples of who wants it and who doesn't? *

Never mind I found a link. Looks like the NBA is the major kink in the rule. Not allowing schools to replace players that leave early for the pros.

D
03-22-2004, 08:20 PM
Phil Martelli, St. Joeseph's coach, is the most vocal guy in favor of it. Pat Kennedy, the former Florida State and current Montana coach is the other guy that comes off the top of my head. Bob Knight, Lute Olson, Tom Izzo have all spoken out against it, and there are countless articles out there readily available about these 3 and other's against it. The reasons they don't like it; the 5/8 rule makes it tough to replace a guy who leaves early for the NBA (which it chould be IMO), it hurts when a player transfers, it hurts when a new coach takes over (Bob Knight) and wants to get "his players" in house. Why do the non-big time schools like it, the reasons pretty much revovolve around the fact that they now get a better quality of player with the 5/8 rule in place because of the trickle down effect it creates. That creates the parity that the big-time coaches don't like.

JBB
03-23-2004, 01:29 AM
the small towns disappearing kind of dried up small town North Dakota BB.

Trainer
03-23-2004, 01:42 AM
North Dakota State football and the Class B State Boy's BB Tournament are about the only things that I come back to ND for every year (no offense Mom and Dad).... I've been to a few SD state BB tournaments, but nothing can compare to the excitement and drama of the ND State Class "B" (no offense Class A folk). As for the Fargodome hosting basketball; it's not a good atmosphere at all. To me, it's like watching baseball in the Metrodome. I've watched BB in all of the major arenas in North Dakota and the place I really enjoy watching BB the most is the Bismarck Civic Center.... Not really a bad seat in the house.... just my two cents.

Bisonfan1234
03-23-2004, 01:47 AM
Anyone who thinks that the atmosphere has anything to do with the venue is just stupid. Sorry.

Atmosphere is 100% based on the mood of the fans.

The dome is better than the BSA because it's newer and can hold more fans.

Trainer
03-23-2004, 01:53 AM
Anyone who thinks that the atmosphere has anything to do with the venue is just stupid. Sorry.

Atmosphere is 100% based on the mood of the fans.

The dome is better than the BSA because it's newer and can hold more fans.


That's like saying a garbage dump is a good place to take a woman out to dinner....... It's big and can seat alot of people.

GFBison
03-23-2004, 03:17 AM
So, are you calling the Fargo Dome a dump? *With the basketball configuration in the dome there isn't a bad seat. *

The tournament committee did a great job. *They put a lot of time into improving the tournament from the last time it was in Fargo. *

As far as atmosphere, class B ball isn't the same game anymore. *It's like class A was before the shot clock. *Class B use to be run and gun, up and down the court. *Most of the games this weekend were slow and sloppy. *That's where the atmosphere went, had nothing to do with the venue.

Oak Grove is class B and is in Fargo, so Fargo is class B year around. *

The press coverage in Fargo is far superior then when it's in the west. *The media outlets did an outstanding job covering the tournament. *

I think it's a slap in the face for them to even consider leaving Fargo out of the rotation. *Fargo was a great host and deserves to host again.

Bisonfan1234
03-23-2004, 03:34 AM
That's like saying a garbage dump is a good place to take a woman out to dinner....... *It's big and can seat alot of people.

I said the venue has ***NOTHING*** to do with the atmosphere.

So with that in mind, yes, you could take a woman out to dinner at a dump, provided she had an excellent attitude.

However, the Dome is anything but a dump. It is one of the best basketball venue's in the state, easily.

So don't bring any of that non-sense here.

bisongold
03-23-2004, 04:05 AM
I wished the NDHSAA would quit trying to "fix" Class B. It is not broken, please keep your hands off! After the Regional first round debacle this year I would think they would have learned! I'm sure their ears are still burning! Please do some research and polling from the Class B fans before you make such stupid changes again. As far as the tournament in Fargo.... the venue was much better this year . They had the seating closer to the floor. Much better. But Fargo and its businesses did not in any way make the Class B people feel welcome. I finally saw 1 sign welcoming Class B at a Cenex station on Sat. ( the day we left) In Bismarck, there seems to be a more organized effort with the businesses to get on board and make everyone feel welcome. Also, we had major problems with the Holiday Inn. Not willing to budge on closing down the poolside area at 11:00 on Thurs. night. The games were not over until 10:00 and people did not get back until 11:00 and wanted to gather to discuss the games and party a bit. No way. Keep in mind that all the teams stayed there along with their parents and many fans, but they would not change. By Sat. night , they caught on to how big this was and became a little more helpful. All in all, I would vote to have the tournament in Bismarck all the time. Much better from a community standpoint. Oh yea, the Forum had alot of coverage this year because the tourn. was in Fargo. When it is not in Fargo, coverage goes way down. Perhaps this is visa-versa when the tourn. is in Bismarck, I'm not sure.

bisonranch
03-23-2004, 04:47 AM
I think Bismarck feels like a better 'B' atmosphere because when the tourney is in town, it is the biggest thing going on. Fargo always has a lot of coverage on all the local colleges and events that make the 'B' tourney seem less important. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just an observation from having lived in both areas. The civic center is also pretty good for BBall, wish the BSA was more like it.

Bisonguy
03-23-2004, 04:50 AM
I think Bismarck feels like a better 'B' atmosphere because when the tourney is in town, it is the biggest thing going on. *Fargo always has a lot of coverage on all the local colleges and events that make the 'B' tourney seem less important. *Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just an observation from having lived in both areas. *The civic center is also pretty good for BBall, wish the BSA was more like it.

From what I've heard about the BSA renovation, it should be pretty nice when done. More comfortable at the very least.

GFBison
03-23-2004, 05:11 AM
We had the same type of problems at the Ramkota in Bismarck, Seven Seas in Mandan, similar situations in Williston, Minot, Dickinson, Watford City, Rugby, Grafton, St Cloud, Minneapolis, *Branerd. * AmericInn in Wahpeton was the most fan friendly motel we ever stayed at. *(Of course these were hockey players, nuff said!!)

My point is Fargo motels/hotels aren't any different then any other city. *The smaller B schools are looking for any excuse to eliminate Fargo from hosting. *We didn't get welcome signs blah blah blah. * All the kids I saw were having a great time.

You know what; I bet if you mention your concerns to the tournament committee, they will make sure to take care of the problems for the next tournament. *I bet they will even get some welcome signs at the local businesses. *I have a hard time believing the west cities put in more time and effort then this group did.

The Forum had over 30 articles on the tournament from th 17th thru 21st. That's amazing!!

Trainer
03-23-2004, 05:12 AM
So did anyone here read that I said the Fargodome is a dump. If you can't understand metaphors, then you have bigger problems then I can help you with.... 1234, as for non-sense, I don't think I have to argue that point coming from you. As for the Fargodome being eliminated from the Class B rotation; it's just a east-west thing. The same argument took place back in the 80s and will take place 20 years from now..... never happen.

WYOBISONMAN
03-23-2004, 05:17 AM
Being the lone gunman from the WEST here (read Williston) I just have to ask BF1234 if he has ever been in the Bismarck Civic Center.....I agree with Trainer.....The Bismarck Civic Center is the best Class B venue in the state....

GFBison
03-23-2004, 05:18 AM
We understand metaphors, just didn't think that was a good one. That's all. ;)

Trainer
03-23-2004, 05:23 AM
Looking back, your right.... just trying to put a little more emphasis on the facility as for basketball. Bad choice of symbolism..... I just regret moving the tournament out of the BSA. I played in the BSA back in high school and thought it was a great venue to play in. Still remember it very well.... After the renovation, it is my hope that the state tournaments will be moved back into the BSA.

BisonWarrior
03-23-2004, 05:29 AM
In class A -- 8 teams out of the @19 schools get to State. In class B--8 out of @120 schools get to State. My point is, it is a tough road for Class B schools to make State. It is frustrating when 3 out of the 8 teams are from bigger cities and still are considered Class "B". Class "B" has always been synonamous with "small town". This is where much of the resentment comes.

These "big city" parochial schools do not draw the same support the "small town" schools do. They don't pack up everybody in town and follow their team. All you had to do this weekend was to look in the stands to see that. Bishop Ryan, Shiloh Christian and Dickinson Trinity had the smallest crowds. They do not seem to draw the same kind of support the small town school do.

There is probably alot of disinformation about these schools. People claim they keep their enrollment just under the Class A levels, but according to the Football Plan at the NDHSAA site, these parochial school's male enrollment is about the same as many of the Class "B" schools. Still, the question of recruiting still bothers many Class "B" people.

Bison1234 you said Class "B" should be "damn happy its in Fargo"... Bismarck and Minot have all the same perks that Fargo has...they have Malls just like Fargo!!! The fact is, when the tournaments are in Bismarck and Minot, every business in those cities know that Class "B' tournaments are in town. Clerks in the stores ask about the games etc. When I went to Hornbachers and purchased several hundred dollars worth of Gatorade, fruit and food for our team, the check out person did not even know there was a tournament in town. I told her right then and there..."Fargo just doesn't get it" And BisonGold if you think the Holiday Inn was bad, the Kelly Inn on Main Ave. was worse. The people that stayed there felt like they were in grade school. Security came around for a bed check at 11 pm!! This kind of stuff just doesn't happen at Bismarck or Minot.

I thought the Dome was better than it was the previous tournament several years ago. I would vote to have the tournament back at the Dome again. I am just not sure I would vote for it to be back in Fargo!

D
03-23-2004, 05:36 AM
GFBison is exactly right. *Class B basketball just isn't what it used to be, fast paced, run and gun, enjoyable to watch not because of it's incredibly skilled players, but because it was up and down and full of runs. *I remember going to St. Thomas-Valley, Fordville-Lankin, and Edinburgh games with my Dad back when those teams were real good, and the games were fullcourt, press until submission type games that were great to watch. *Now, they are nothing more often then not boring, half-court set, run the play to submission type games. *The San Antonio Spurs make even the best of facilities seem drab and boring, a boring team/game can make any arena seem like a mortuary.

GFBison
03-23-2004, 05:42 AM
It happens at the Ramkota Inn in Bismarck. We couldn't even bring the hockey equipment into the motel, so our kids had to put on frozen jocks and socks. We had security check our rooms and told to bring the equipment to the cars, we had $100 hockey sticks being ripped off from our cars.

GFBison
03-23-2004, 05:48 AM
I think a compromise would be to hold it in Fargo every third year. For example: Bismarck, Fargo, Minot, Bismarck, Fargo, Minot.

JBB
03-23-2004, 12:51 PM
No offense trainer but your post did leave the impression you called the Fargo Dome a dump. The Fabulous Fargo Dome will forever be in the shadow of Dacotah Field and will never be accepted by many fans. Its tough to compete with an idealized memory from your youth. Im sure nobody on this board would enjoy themselves at a game held at the old Dacotah Field even it was still all there.

What ever happened to the Class B champ playing the Class A champ?

Trainer
03-23-2004, 01:54 PM
No offense taken JBB..... Just a bad choice of words.

WYOBISONMAN
03-23-2004, 03:23 PM
Getting nostelgic here....how many remember the year the Epping Eagles took second in the State B tourney. An enrollment of 23 at the high school. That is what Class B is all about. (I always liked it better than the Class A tourney and I was from a Class A town).

I think one other thing that has hurt Class B is the huge loss of schools and the consolidation of schools. A lot of towns have lost thier identity. Anyone remember the Alamo Greenwaves....Wildrose Roses.... All are gone including the Epping Eagles. Population loss in rural ND has really been tough.

Bisonfan1234
03-23-2004, 03:56 PM
Not trying to be a dick or anything...but there is nothing out there that you can do to make money except farming.

And that is increasingly becoming a waste of time with corporation farms that can farm more land cheaper and give the consumers better prices.

Humans are not meant to spend all day baking in the sun pounding soil (not that it's done that way anymore...now you buy a $250000 tractor).

Trainer
03-23-2004, 04:29 PM
Remember it well, WYO....

The following was taken from an article titled "Plains Folk: Shining Moments of Class B Basketball" written by Tom Isern, Professor of History, NDSU

--- If you know the story at all, you'll start to cry as soon as they start the reunion in Epping, whose high school closed a few years after its shining moment. "If there is one game that best defines the essence of the State B," intones Olien, "it was this one. . . No one who was there that night will ever forget it."

The wide-eyed boys from tiny Epping came by car to Bismark and faced the top-ranked team in the state headed by its most illustrious coach. They fell behind early and far. They battled back, even while the Burros kept their heads and answered every run. With the score 48-44 Hillsboro in the fourth quarter, Epping scored on a fast break off a jump ball. The basket, though, was disallowed on a call by referee Henry Milkey, legendary guard of Minot Model during its dynasty.

The Epping players lost the game, but they were not losers. As the narrator observes, "The Epping players have become modern folk heroes, symbols of a time when a school with 23 students could dream of glory." One Shining Moment. As Don Allard said, after Epping finished runner-up in the State B, "There was no disappointment that I can recall." Olien says of the state tournaments, "They are events that define a community, and for the athletes can be the moments with which they are identified for the rest of their lives." I know he's right. As a historian I'd love to win the Bancroft Prize, but I know that if I do, it will be reported in my home-town paper something like this: "Tom Isern, who hit the game-winning buzzer-beater in the 1970 state semi-finals, has won the Bancroft Prize, some sort of award for writers." ---

NDSU_grad
03-23-2004, 05:37 PM
Have you guys seen the PBS special "One Shining Moment". It's awesome, and chronicles the history of the state "B". I have to agree with D, class "B" basketball is not what it used to be. 47-26 this year, 35-33 two years ago. I remember when Newburg played Bisbee-England in the championship game in 89. I think the final score was 90-something to 80-something. I remember the inbounder from BE would grab the ball from the hoop on a made basket before it hit the floor and throw a long 3/4 court outlet pass to a guy for a layup. Now it's like wathcing the University of Wisconsin play.

BisonMav
03-23-2004, 06:01 PM
Recently North Border vs Cando was a great game. Hillsboro had some slow paced boring teams in the 1970's. The Epping game was 56-52. I depends mostly on the teams in the tourney.

BisonMav
03-23-2004, 06:10 PM
Link to One Shining Moment PBS.

One Shining Moment (http://www.prairiepublic.org/features/classB/index.htm)

WYOBISONMAN
03-23-2004, 06:30 PM
I have the video tape of "One Shining Moment" and it is good stuff.

And of course once again BF1234 shows an anti ag bias. A damn strange attitude for an alleged fan of the Land Grant school in ND. ::)

Bisonfan1234
03-23-2004, 06:36 PM
It's not like 1/4th of NDSU's students are in the engineering department or anything.

They're moving away from ag (like most other schools) because there is no money in that and thus no students will to take the classes.

Bio-technology, bio-engineering, and general bio-science, however, is quite the opposite story. This is a quickly becoming one of the hottest fields in the nation and i would fully expect NDSU to be a frontrunner in this research as they move into the Carnegie Extensive classification.

BTW, i'm not against ag. It's obviously an estential thing as we need food for us and animals we raise. However, i AM against the government artificially raising prices for family farmers just so they can make a living when a corporation farm can easily stay in business and offer consumers lower prices.

NDSU_grad
03-23-2004, 06:59 PM
Number one, there is no such thing as a corporate farm, at least in the context you'd like to present. Two, enrollment in the traditional "ag" majors has held study across the years. There are far more jobs for traditional field agronomists than their are graduates, so to say "...students are moving away..." from that stuff is ridiculous. And BisonMav, I guess you're right. I can definitely remember the slow paced style of Ed Beyer's Hillsboro's teams. But it still seems like it's not the fun and gun style it used to be.

BisonMav
03-23-2004, 07:39 PM
Isn't May-Port's coach, Eddie Beyers Son-In-Law? I've seen Eddie sitting courtside for his Grandsons games a couple years ago.

D
03-23-2004, 08:06 PM
It's not like 1/4th of NDSU's students are in the engineering department or anything.

They're moving away from ag (like most other schools) because there is no money in that and thus no students will to take the classes.

Bio-technology, bio-engineering, and general bio-science, however, is quite the opposite story. This is a quickly becoming one of the hottest fields in the nation and i would fully expect NDSU to be a frontrunner in this research as they move into the Carnegie Extensive classification.

BTW, i'm not against ag. It's obviously an estential thing as we need food for us and animals we raise. However, i AM against the government artificially raising prices for family farmers just so they can make a living when a corporation farm can easily stay in business and offer consumers lower prices.

So basically you are against the family farm? *That says it all right there. *Can't get any more un-American, un-Midwesterner then that.

Bison_Kent
03-23-2004, 08:14 PM
Bison1234 should move to Russia where they do have the corporate farms like he states. I would guess after being in Russia for any amount of time and he will have a different tune on the American family farm.

Bisonfan1234
03-23-2004, 08:54 PM
So basically you are against the family farm? *That says it all right there. *Can't get any more un-American, un-Midwesterner then that.


American and Midwesterner are completly subjective terms. I qualify for both since i was born in the USA and in the Midwest.

I never said that i was against the family farm.

So lets just get that straight.


However, i am against the government giving family farmers a monopoly on the market. There should be fair competition allowed.

With that being said, i will buy from whoever has the lowest prices and i would also assume that most other would as well.

Understand now?

Bison_Kent
03-23-2004, 09:10 PM
Bison1234,

I am not sure how you say that US farmers are a monopoly. They are competing against produce from Brazil, Argentina, Ukraine, Russia, Canada, and many other countries.

WYOBISONMAN
03-23-2004, 09:23 PM
BF1234.....have you ever heard of a level playing field? *Unfortunately it does not exist in Ag. *Free trade is a joke because of that. *Obviously you are not an Ag grad or an Econ grad.....my guess is you are an engineer from the Twin
Cities and have o experience living in rural America. *If you did, you wouldn't run it down. *Rural North Dakota is the life blood of NDSU.

Bison_Kent
03-23-2004, 09:45 PM
WyoBisonman,

I agree. I can't see how 1234 can run down ND farmers like that. I was prowd to be a farmer while I was going to school at SU. And am now prowd to be working for a agricultural machinery manufacturer as an engineer. Note that all engineers aren't like 1234.

WYOBISONMAN
03-23-2004, 09:51 PM
;) Point well taken Kent!

Bisonfan1234
03-23-2004, 11:09 PM
The topic of discussion is not about me. Do you understand how your attack on me is an ad hominem? (BTW, i'm not an engineer)

Please, lets stay on the topic.

Farmers are not bad people. Farming is an honorable job and is an essential one!

The only thing i don't like is how the government gives farmers extra money which effectively raises the price of their goods. The government gets its money from the people thus the people are paying to keep the livelyhood of family farming in existance when it probably would have gone bankrupt in a completely free market. If you want to talk about level playing fields...that is NOT one!! The government should supplement incomes of ALL occupations OR they should supplement none.

IowaBison
03-23-2004, 11:16 PM
There are no even playing fields.

Life isn't fair.

But at least now we can tailgate.

BisonMav
03-24-2004, 01:28 AM
Farmers are not bad people. Farming is an honorable job and is an essential one!

The only thing i don't like is how the government gives farmers extra money which effectively raises the price of their goods. The government gets its money from the people thus the people are paying to keep the livelyhood of family farming in existance when it probably would have gone bankrupt in a completely free market. If you want to talk about level playing fields...that is NOT one!! The government should supplement incomes of ALL occupations OR they should supplement none.
Farmers get close to the same price for their product that they did 30 years ago. Expenses have skyrocketed. The government isn't supporting farmers like you think. The people between you and the farmer are making the most money.

GFBison
03-24-2004, 01:42 AM
Ok. I know nothing about farming. Here we go anyway...

There are farmers who are very very rich and farmers that are very very poor. The rich farmers continue to get richer, and the poor farmers get run off the farm and the rich farmers buy their assets for little maybe nothing. Gee, kind of sounds like Microsoft. Is Bill Gates a farmer?

See what I mean, I know nothing about farming.

bisonranch
03-24-2004, 01:55 AM
Lots of foreign countries have high tariffs on incoming US ag products and there is little tatiffs for goods coming into this contry. US farmers can't compete in other markets, our food remains cheap, and the government subsidizes some farmers to make up for it.

Anyway, was the dome full for the B? What does it hold for basketball configuration?

NDSU_grad
03-24-2004, 02:29 AM
The dome was nowhere close to full for the "B". I think championship night they had just under 7,000, which is pretty crappy.

GFBison
03-24-2004, 02:59 AM
There is nothing wrong with subsidizing the farmers. *The government subsidizes many businesses. Rural cooperatives rebuilt many miles of lines with FEMA money. * *Look at the money they gave to the power industry in the western United States after the disaster of the power industry deregulation.

Hover dam is a government handout. Prior to 1987, the power plant, transformer and switching facilities were operated and maintained by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, and the Southern California Edison Co. *Talk about a subsidy, with out the government backing that dam how much would California and Arizona had to pay for electrical power. (I guess they are finding out now).

The coal industry, automobile industry, airlines, cable companies, oil industry and TV and Radio broadcast industry. *What about the entire "economic development" taking place in everywhere. Who pays for that? *

Heck the farm subsidies are just a drop in the bucket. *I'm not say farm subsidies are right, I'm just saying they aren't the only ones getting "Welfare".

roadwarrior
03-24-2004, 04:04 AM
here we are again.....arguing with 1234.....its pointless

GFBison
03-24-2004, 04:41 AM
here we are again.....arguing with 1234.....its pointless


Good Point. :)

tony
03-24-2004, 04:52 AM
I've just got to this one. Let me get this straight:

Corporate farms are efficient, unsubsidized businesses and family farms are welfare cases unfairly preying on the corporate farms?

Here I thought corporate farms got 80% of all agricultural subsidies :)

Bisonfan1234
03-24-2004, 05:00 AM
The only thing i'm arguing is my opinion:

the government should stay out of at. Then we'll see where the chips really fall.

I'm just trying to look out for the consumer. They deserve the lowest price possible.

IowaBison
03-24-2004, 07:23 AM
and we have the lowest priced food in the world period.

it's tax payers for the most part who carry the burden of u.s. farm policy.

what, am i the only ag economist on this site?

NDSU_grad
03-24-2004, 02:26 PM
It has always been a federal policy in this country to keep food as cheap as possible. Government subsidies are a form of welfare, but moreso for the consumer rather than the farmer. In other words, they keep food prices low for the consumer. In the U.S. about 10% of disposable income is spent on food. In developed European countries about 20% of disposable income is spent on food.

Bison7925
03-24-2004, 02:34 PM
I think that if we just covered all farm land with field turf the world would be a better place ;D

Bisonfan1234
03-24-2004, 05:21 PM
Don't you guys understand that food prices are not being kept down via government income supplementation??

The tax payers have to pay the taxes AND pay for the food, while in the free market they just pay for the food.

So nothing is being kept down by using taxes, you're paying for it one way or another. It's just that when you use taxes you're forcing everyone to pay for it whether they want to or not.

NDSU_grad
03-24-2004, 05:36 PM
Don't you guys understand that food prices are not being kept down via government income supplementation??

The tax payers have to pay the taxes AND pay for the food, while in the free market they just pay for the food.

So nothing is being kept down by using taxes, you're paying for it one way or another. It's just that when you use taxes you're forcing everyone to pay for it whether they want to or not.

You're partly right. But an extremely small amount of our taxes go to subsidizing food. And in most cases, these are not direct subsidies. If you added up the amount U.S. citizens pay in taxes to support food production and the actual amount we pay for food, the costs would still be considerably lower than what many other developed countries pay for food. And remember, much of Western Europe is socialist, so they also pay much higher taxes than we do. Our system is not perfect, but better than alot of other countries.

Bisonfan1234
03-24-2004, 08:22 PM
Any system that isn't an unregulated free market is not a good system.

IowaBison
03-24-2004, 08:37 PM
Bison1234, clearly you no nothing about economics or politics or football or basketball or.....

Bisonfan1234
03-24-2004, 09:24 PM
Ad Hominem

WYOBISONMAN
03-24-2004, 10:14 PM
I guess BF1234 knows about the MidCon and it ends right about there. It is obvious he know nothing about North Dakota or anything West of the Twin Cities.

Bisonfan1234
03-24-2004, 10:59 PM
I currently live west of the twin cities.

IowaBison
03-25-2004, 02:16 AM
St Louis Park doesn't count.

Or are you being smart and actually live in Vermont which is technically west of anywhere.

Bisonfan1234
03-25-2004, 03:30 AM
heh...no..i don't even live in Minnesota.

Junior
03-26-2004, 05:54 AM
Interesting how this one got off topic. All I am going to say is that I take exception to the negative comments about agriculture and government programs. The American farmer is the most productive and efficeint producer in the world. In part this has been thier demise. So, please do a little research before you are critical of a system you don't understand. Not trying to flame anyone just trying to promote education.

For the record I grew up on a 3500 acre farm in ND, graduated from NDSU with an engineering degree and now work for an ag equimpent manufacturer. I deal with customers large and small every year.

Bisonfan1234
03-26-2004, 03:08 PM
How many english classes did you take at NDSU?

How many times do i have to say that i'm not against farmers?

WYOBISONMAN
03-26-2004, 05:14 PM
Bisonfan1234.......have you ever heard of a credibility gap?? You have one....

Junior
03-26-2004, 06:15 PM
Posted by: Bisonfan1234 Posted on: Mar 23rd, 2004, 5:09pm
The topic of discussion is not about me. Do you understand how your attack on me is an ad hominem


Hmmm, so what does that make your english class comment?

Bisonfan1234
03-27-2004, 01:12 AM
Well obviously the answer is "yes, i had english classes", so it's more of a sarcastic remark.

However, the main thing is that i provided a real counte-arugment under that.