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TheBisonator
02-14-2005, 12:32 PM
When in the future will we FINALLY be accepted to join an established conference?? (And no, the proposal of forming a new conference with other Indy's doesn't count).

Keep in mind that if we find an established conference in basketball by the time July 1, 2008 rolls around, we would officially be tourney-eligible for basketball on that date.

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
02-15-2005, 10:52 PM
What exactly are the rules for eligibility for both the men and the women's teams as far as postseason play?

Bisonguy
02-15-2005, 11:01 PM
What exactly are the rules for eligibility for both the men and the women's teams as far as postseason play?

No chance at the NCAA tourney until 2008-2009, and then probably the only realistic chance is to win a conference crown (i.e. receive an autobid). The NIT tourney is a possibility next year, as NDSU will have a RPI-qualifying schedule.

silkamilkamonico
02-16-2005, 06:12 AM
Since Big Sky fell through I think it could be a loong time before we can get in a conference in basketball. I haven't been keeping up but I don;t know any other possabilities around here. I think 2010 could come around and we would still be looking for a tourney eligible conference. We aren't in the best location.

JBB
02-16-2005, 06:16 PM
I agree with that. I picked 2008 because the poll only went that far out. Unless something changes in the BSC, we are going to probably have to start another new conference or play independent for a long time. If that happens a move to DI-A football might be the only way to find a full conference affiliation.

Wild card: on going reorganization in all of division one and reclassification of more DII schools.

mikelsch
02-16-2005, 07:29 PM
The closer we get to being fully eligible, the closer we will get to an established conference. Conferences are in no hurry to invite a team that is so early in the transition. NDSU's success and credentials will eventually overcome geography and we will pique the interest of the Big Sky, Mid-Con, and Horizon/Gateway.

IowaBison
02-16-2005, 08:01 PM
The closer we get to being fully eligible, the closer we will get to an established conference. *Conferences are in no hurry to invite a team that is so early in the transition. *NDSU's success and credentials will eventually overcome geography and we will pique the interest of the Big Sky, Mid-Con, and Horizon/Gateway.

I agree with you completely, Greenie. There might be flirtations, but I think beginning in the fall of '06 there will be greater interest and by Christmas '07 something will happen.

silkamilkamonico
02-16-2005, 09:47 PM
I hope you guys are right. I hate the idea of not being in a conference, and no light at the end of this tunnel, it has to affect recruiting to some degree.

BisBison
02-17-2005, 12:13 AM
I hope you guys are right. I hate the idea of not being in a conference, and no light at the end of this tunnel, it has to affect recruiting to some degree.

COME ON!! We just started down this tunnel. Take a pill, we'll get there. Nobody said this would be easy of fast, if it was undII and every other pretender would be doing it. :-/

JBB
02-17-2005, 01:36 PM
I found this link on AGS:

WKU approached by MAC (http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050217/SPORTS/502170433/1002/SPORTS)

This would shake up the Gateway for sure and might provide the Dakotas with an opportunity, but it wont help at all with BB. *This is part of a chain reaction starting with re-shuffeling in DI-A conference memberships. *This type of thing is able to trickle all the way down to us and our conference search.

IowaBison
02-17-2005, 01:44 PM
Being in a conference with UNI would be just as good as the Big Sky for football, helluva lot closer too.

Too bad we sponsor other sports that need a home:)

mikelsch
02-17-2005, 03:36 PM
If we were accepted into the Gateway FB conference, the "Valley" or Horizon league (for the other sports) would not be far behind.

JBB
02-17-2005, 04:31 PM
Obviously our first choice is the BSC. Thats where we have concentrated our efforts and continue to seek admission. If the BSC is serious about us but on some kind of hidden time line as has been suggested, a viable Gateway option might speed them up if in fact your right about the MVC or Horizon. If your not they will know that the move is only lateral out of the GWFC and really does us little good.

mikelsch
02-17-2005, 05:00 PM
I would take the Gateway any day over the GWFC. More teams, more stability.

IowaBison
02-17-2005, 05:27 PM
and the autobid doesn't hurt ;)

silkamilkamonico
02-17-2005, 06:05 PM
COME ON!! We just started down this tunnel. Take a pill, we'll get there. Nobody said this would be easy of fast, if it was undII and every other pretender would be doing it. :-/


We just started? I hope to God that they considered the conference dilemma while we were making the adjustment, and not banking everything on Big Sky. Rumors within the programs even state that they banked on Big Sky letting us in a little too much.

What other conference possabilities are there right now, I don't know, I'm asking?!

JBB
02-26-2005, 04:03 PM
IPFW struggles with conference affiliation (http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/sports/10845669.htm)

This is a school that plays independent men/women DI Basketball. I dont think they have a football team but they have a full slate of other sports.

I dont know if they are at a disadvantage without football but is it possible they could emerge with NDSU/SDSU as part of a new conference along the lines of the Horizon? The GWFC is a good model too. Building new conferences could be a real winner in the long run.

TheBisonator
02-27-2005, 04:37 PM
IPFW struggles with conference affiliation (http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/sports/10845669.htm)

This is a school that plays independent men/women DI Basketball. *I dont think they have a football team but they have a full slate of other sports. *

I dont know if they are at a disadvantage without football but is it possible they could emerge with NDSU/SDSU as part of a new conference along the lines of the Horizon? *The GWFC is a good model too. *Building new conferences could be a real winner in the long run.

But do you know what a newly-formed conference will bring us?? No autobid for mens or womens basketball until the year 2015.

I'll be 33 years old by that time. :P

JBB
02-28-2005, 04:15 PM
Apparently, remaining an independent will never bring an auto-bid. *If the conference can ever get one it would be on par with the Mid Con or any other auto bid conference for that matter. *It simply may be a question of lowering expectations and accepting the waiting period.

I havent looked into what teams would be included in a conference of independents but it seems like a good idea for a couple of reasons:

1) *It gives new schools moving up a place to go
2) *It would gain value over time
3) it would make a nice pairing with the GWFC, joining a couple of other dual conference models.

greenandgold01
02-28-2005, 04:20 PM
I think WKU might be serious about going to the Sun Belt.

Lets not give up on a Gateway/(whatever) combo yet.

JBB
02-28-2005, 04:57 PM
I agree, we have to keep every option open. *Membership in the Gateway is preferable to the GWFC because of the auto bid but it would certainly diminish the GWFC. *Membership in an associated sports conference might be expected but it isnt guranteed.

Conference affiliation with the DI-AA football classification seems very difficult. *It might be another issue why this classification should be looked at. *On the other hand financial issues seem to be paramount.

1) *reduced share of conference revenues resulting from the addition of new members.
2) *cost of operating existing conferences after adding new members especially travel.

The only way to sove these issues is to offer some type of compensation to existing members.

I think its inevitable that some type of payment will be needed to get a conference membership because the membership does have value.

It may also be necessary to make some type of travel cost concesion by new members. * Maybe when existing members visit for the first year or two a certain travel guarantee would have to be paid?

IowaBison
02-28-2005, 05:28 PM
JBB, you've forgotten WyoBison's Rule #1 when it comes to travel & conference affiliation...

they will still have to travel to another locale if they don't come to fargo!

the rare exception (ie Montana) is where they are giving up a home game or IA game ($$$$$$$)

JBB
02-28-2005, 05:42 PM
I think the rule is reasonable and should help us hold the line on cost abatement payments if in fact we can get to that point in our conference negotiations.

Rodentia
02-28-2005, 06:42 PM
I think that forming a new conference is a wise idea. There are enough independents to make a new conference. The NCAA already has a "play-in game". Why not add one more? I think that the NCAA may relent and do this.

It would give something concrete to play for, a conference trophy. Never ingore the lure of hardware. :D

This would not preclude seeking a better conference when the opportunity arises. If NDSU can get membership in a football-only conference, a new conference for other sports makes sense.

WYOBISONMAN
02-28-2005, 08:55 PM
Forming a new conference would be OK......but ya know what.....those schools are not the ones we want to go to bed with. We need a conference with the Montana schools because of thier drawing power. Unfortunately we will never see the Griz in Fargo for a non conf game as they loose way too much revenue not playing at home. Regardless of what we do in the short term, the long range plan has to include us trying to get into the Big Sky's pants. If it is a dry spell you always have to get laid, but.......don't marry any old girl that comes along......especially a hogger.......and keep working on the one you really want to nail....... 8)

Rodentia
02-28-2005, 09:20 PM
A conference of former independents wouldn't be a marriage. More like a "no-strings-attached" relationship. I would expect that if this conference was formed, and if NDSU joined it, that NDSU would continue to work on upgrading their conference affiliation.

mikelsch
02-28-2005, 09:53 PM
Montana and the Big Sky Conference are the girl that looks good from far, but is far from good. The Gateway for football; and Missouri Valley, or Horizon, or Mid-Con for all the other sports is the way to go. These other conferences have all our sports. The Big Sky lacks softball and baseball. Hard enough to be DI, even harder to play as an independent.

WYOBISONMAN
02-28-2005, 10:23 PM
We want to be with peer institutions for FB and BB. Only the Big Sky will give us that.

89rabbit
02-28-2005, 10:29 PM
Montana and the Big Sky Conference are the girl that looks good from far, but is far from good. *The Gateway for football; and Missouri Valley, or Horizon, or Mid-Con for all the other sports is the way to go. *These other conferences have all our sports. *The Big Sky lacks softball and baseball. *Hard enough to be DI, even harder to play as an independent. *




I'm with Greenie on this one.

Rodentia
02-28-2005, 10:35 PM
Get what conference you can get into, and then move later.

mikelsch
02-28-2005, 10:42 PM
Gateway/Valley, Gateway/Horizon kicks the snot out of the Big Sky. The Valley is # SEVEN in men's bball sagarin ratings, Horizon FIFTEEN, and Big Sky is 27 out of 32 conferences. NDSU and SDSU don't want to be peers with #27.

Football: Great West #13, Big Sky #14, Gateway #20. NDSU and SDSU would vault the Gateway to Big Sky level in football.

jjbluecw
02-28-2005, 10:47 PM
Gateway/Valley, Gateway/Horizon kicks the snot out of the Big Sky. The Valley is # SEVEN in men's bball sagarin ratings, Horizon FIFTEEN, and Big Sky is 27 out of 32 conferences. NDSU and SDSU don't want to be peers with #27.

Football: Great West #13, Big Sky #14, Gateway #20. NDSU and SDSU would vault the Gateway to Big Sky level in football.

I couldn't agree more. I like those stats. The main reason I agree is for recruiting purposes. It's been stated before but I will say it again there is a much larger pool to recruit going east than going west

Bisonguy
02-28-2005, 10:59 PM
I couldn't agree more. *I like those stats. *The main reason I agree is for recruiting purposes. *It's been stated before but I will say it again there is a much larger pool to recruit going east than going west

Add in the fact about where NDSU is recruiting already for FB and BB (Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, etc.).

Kelli Layman was on the Bison BB show last night talking about their new recruiting area for women's BB. It's Indiana and Illinois, not Montana and Idaho. :-/

Don't know for sure, but I heard the NCAA has essentially put a moratorium on new BB conferences in DI. The independents will have a "scheduling alliance" starting next year, but nothing that will start the process of attaining an autobid.

WYOBISONMAN
02-28-2005, 11:07 PM
Look outside of athletics......that is why the Administration has worked the Big Sky so hard. Again.....whom in the other conferences would be our peers...flagship institutions in thier respective states??

89rabbit
02-28-2005, 11:17 PM
What happens if Montan and or Montana State leave the Big Sky? Not many "flagships" left in the BSC.

jjbluecw
02-28-2005, 11:37 PM
What happens if Montan and or Montana State leave the Big Sky? Not many "flagships" left in the BSC.

No kidding, calling any of the other schools the flagship institution of their state would be a reach to say the least. I'm not trying to belittle those institutions either, I'm sure they are all fine schools.

Bisonguy
02-28-2005, 11:40 PM
What happens if Montan and or Montana State leave the Big Sky? *Not many "flagships" left in the BSC.

What about Idaho State? ::)

And then, of course, there's some great directional schools like Eastern Washington and Northern Arizona, some "city-States" such as Sacramento State and Portland State, and last but not least, Weber State. ;D ;D ;D :o ;D ;D ;D ;)

jjbluecw
02-28-2005, 11:52 PM
What about Idaho State? ::)



I don't know how Idaho State ranks as far as academics are concerned but the first shool in Idaho that comes to my mind is Boisie St. Probably because the broncos qb can throw a potato 80 yds. :D :D

Bisonguy
03-01-2005, 12:04 AM
I don't know how Idaho State ranks as far as academics are concerned but the first shool in Idaho that comes to my mind is Boisie St. *Probably because the broncos qb can throw a potato 80 yds. * :D :D

Back in '82, I could throw a pigskin a quarter mile.... ;D

TaTonka_31
03-01-2005, 12:14 AM
Three teams, Tulsa, Rice and SMU are moving out of the WAC into Conference USA. *Does anyone know what teams are moving into the WAC and what ramifacations that would that have on the conferences they are moving out of. *It seems with this much movement there would be some incentive to realign some schools to match up sports and geographic areas. *

For instance, there is a team from Louisana in the WAC. *

Also, maybe its time for Southern ILL to move out of the Missouri Valley and into a more prestigious basketball conference. *They have been dominating the Missouri Valley for a number of years and are ready for the big time in basketball. *I would hope any movement out of the Missouri Valley would give NDSU and SDSU a chance because of geography and sports the schools participate in. *They would be the best possible dream senario for the Dakota schools.

greenandgold01
03-01-2005, 12:30 AM
What about Idaho State? ::)

And then, of course, there's some great directional schools like Eastern Washington and Northern Arizona, some "city-States" such as Sacramento State and Portland State, and last but not least, Weber State. ;D ;D ;D :o ;D ;D ;D ;)





Believe it or not, The University of Idaho is the flagship in that state.

No wonder the legislature is pushing them so hard to keep pace with Boise.

JBB
03-01-2005, 12:33 AM
For sure Boise State is headed to the WAC, but I dont know the others.

greenandgold01
03-01-2005, 12:33 AM
I think going to the Big Sky might be attractive now, but what about in 10 years?

There is a strong possibility that Montana is going to be upgraded to DIA and join the WAC or MWC. Montana State might be along for the ride as well.

Montana is really are only bridge to the Big Sky. The rest of the teams are western US schools.


The Gateway (other than Northern Iowa) doesn't really fit us geographically either, but the thing I like about the Gateway is that it gets our foot in the door for the MVC. The MVC would be a dream for both NDSU and SDSU and I think it should be something to aim for.

My vote is the Gateway + MVC, however unlikely it is.

greenandgold01
03-01-2005, 12:34 AM
For sure Boise State is headed to the WAC, but I dont know the others.


Boise is already in the WAC.

With a stadium upgrade that might be headed to the more powerful MWC.

greenandgold01
03-01-2005, 12:35 AM
Three teams, Tulsa, Rice and SMU are moving out of the WAC into Conference USA. Does anyone know what teams are moving into the WAC and what ramifacations that would that have on the conferences they are moving out of. It seems with this much movement there would be some incentive to realign some schools to match up sports and geographic areas.

For instance, there is a team from Louisana in the WAC.

Also, maybe its time for Southern ILL to move out of the Missouri Valley and into a more prestigious basketball conference. They have been dominating the Missouri Valley for a number of years and are ready for the big time in basketball. I would hope any movement out of the Missouri Valley would give NDSU and SDSU a chance because of geography and sports the schools participate in. They would be the best possible dream senario for the Dakota schools.


Idaho, New Mexico State, and Utah State are all moving to the WAC from the Sun Belt and Big West.

bisonranch
03-01-2005, 03:17 AM
There is a strong possibility that Montana is going to be upgraded to DIA and join the WAC or MWC. Montana State might be along for the ride as well.


I believe there's a law in MT that says MSU and UM have to be in the same comference. MSU moving on is pretty unlikely so UM will probably just talk about moving to the NFL or where ever without it actually happening. If that's the case, then there are 6 schools that will be Big Sky for a long time.

I agree with WYO about being in a conference with the Montana schools and ISU but I don't think the other schools fit unless UNC gets in. I think we also have to look east though especially since that's where we recruit from. Hopfully the BBall program is respectable in the future and one of the better conferences considers us. Otherwise, if we get in the 'sky perhaps we'll improve their hoops rankings with successful Dakota teams and their recruiting bases.

Bisonguy
03-01-2005, 03:33 AM
Believe it or not, The University of Idaho is the flagship in that state.

No wonder the legislature is pushing them so hard to keep pace with Boise.

Exactly. Neither one is in the Big Sky.



There is no legislation that keeps Montana and Montana State in the same conference or division. This was debunked on the egriz board quite a while back. It's an old myth. Montana State might feel pressure to move to I-A if Montana made the move, but there's nothing stopping the Grizzlies (well, other than money) if they so choose.

bisonranch
03-01-2005, 03:49 AM
There is no legislation that keeps Montana and Montana State in the same conference or division. This was debunked on the egriz board quite a while back.

O. Well, judging from Idaho's success, I still think they'll be I-AA for a while.

jjbluecw
03-01-2005, 05:30 AM
For sure Boise State is headed to the WAC, but I dont know the others.

The way their fb program has been playing they are well on their way out of the wac. I love watching these guys play on thursday night.

JBB
03-01-2005, 01:49 PM
Don't know for sure, but I heard the NCAA has essentially put a moratorium on new BB conferences in DI. The independents will have a "scheduling alliance" starting next year, but nothing that will start the process of attaining an autobid.


If conference formation is discouraged shouldnt there be some type of NCAA involvement in placing independents in existing conferences?

greenandgold01
03-01-2005, 03:04 PM
If conference formation is discouraged shouldnt there be some type of NCAA involvement in placing independents in existing conferences?


I don't think that would be fair to the conferences.

I think the message from the NCAA is clear: we have enough conferences. Join one on your own, suffer as an independant, or leave DI.

WYOBISONMAN
03-01-2005, 03:34 PM
By the time a team is eligible for the playoffs they should be able to find conference affiliation. *If they can't, they may have not been the right team to jump to DI. *NDSU will definitely have a conference by the time we are eligible. *


On another issue.......I have always believed that the Big Sky without the Montana schools is of little interest to NDSU...

Rodentia
03-01-2005, 03:56 PM
The NCAA can't prevent the formation of new conferences. They are private organizations. They can, however, decline to give them an auto-bid to NCAA tournaments. However, if you're an independent, you aren't getting an auto-bid anyway, so what's the difference?

There are ten independent teams in DI basketball, it seems as if there is need for a new conference. Also, look at the "play-in" game in the NCAA basketball tournament. It would be only a small change to add a second play-in game to the tournament. Just having one play-in game is asymmetrical.

You could call it a scheduling alliance, but all you have to do would be to give it a name, such as the BNC (brand new conference), schedule a tournament, and have a trophy, and you've got yourself a D-I conference.

I figured out the seeding for the BNC, based on the Sagarin ratings. (They may not be accurate, but they are the only comparison I have).

#1 Seed: Texas A&M Corpus Christi
#2 Seed: Utah Valley State
#3 Seed: UC Davis
#4 Seed: SDSU
#5 Seed: Texas Pan America
#6 Seed: IPFW
#7 Seed: NDSU
#8 Seed: UNC
#9 Seed: Longwood
#10 Seed: Savannah State

NDSU would play Savannah State in the first round of the tournament.

greenandgold01
03-01-2005, 05:30 PM
By the time a team is eligible for the playoffs they should be able to find conference affiliation. If they can't, they may have not been the right team to jump to DI. NDSU will definitely have a conference by the time we are eligible.


On another issue.......I have always believed that the Big Sky without the Montana schools is of little interest to NDSU...


Thinking down the road, a conference with UWY, COSU, UNC, UMT, MTSU, and NDSU might be good.

IowaBison
03-01-2005, 05:43 PM
Thinking down the road, a conference with UWY, COSU, UNC, UMT, MTSU, and NDSU might be good.

If that happened, WyoBison would shit and die.

greenandgold01
03-01-2005, 06:13 PM
That probably would be far down the road and probably could only happen if NDSU takes the Big Sky route.

JBB
03-01-2005, 08:17 PM
Rodentias list looks good to me too. I agree call it a conference get a trophy made, open up a web site and play ball.

Bisonguy
03-02-2005, 03:05 AM
#1 * Seed: Texas A&M Corpus Christi
#2 * Seed: Utah Valley State
#3 * Seed: UC Davis
#4 * Seed: SDSU
#5 * Seed: Texas Pan America
#6 * Seed: IPFW
#7 * Seed: NDSU
#8 * Seed: UNC ???
#9 * Seed: Longwood
#10 Seed: Savannah State



UC Davis will be a member of the Big West Conference in 2007-2008. UNC might be going to the Big Sky.

Most of the above-mentioned schools will be part of the "scheduling alliance", and a possible independent tournament at the end of the season.

jackrabbit1979
03-02-2005, 04:17 AM
The NCAA can't prevent the formation of new conferences. *They are private organizations. *They can, however, decline to give them an auto-bid to NCAA tournaments. *However, if you're an independent, you aren't getting an auto-bid anyway, so what's the difference?

There are ten independent teams in DI basketball, it seems as if there is need for a new conference. *Also, look at the "play-in" game in the NCAA basketball tournament. * *It would be only a small change to add a second play-in game to the tournament. *Just having one play-in game is asymmetrical.

You could call it a scheduling alliance, but all you have to do would be to give it a name, such as the BNC (brand new conference), schedule a tournament, and have a trophy, and you've got yourself a D-I conference.

I figured out the seeding for the BNC, based on the Sagarin ratings. *(They may not be accurate, but they are the only comparison I have).

#1 * Seed: Texas A&M Corpus Christi
#2 * Seed: Utah Valley State
#3 * Seed: UC Davis
#4 * Seed: SDSU
#5 * Seed: Texas Pan America
#6 * Seed: IPFW
#7 * Seed: NDSU
#8 * Seed: UNC
#9 * Seed: Longwood
#10 Seed: Savannah State

NDSU would play Savannah State in the first round of the tournament.

as bisonguy noted its not likely, but if all these teams were around it would be great. The bison would probably play IPFW though in a ten team tourney with the above seeds. ;)

WYOBISONMAN
03-02-2005, 06:30 AM
Damn right.........I would shit and die if that one happened........so would about 95% of Wyoming!!!! ;)

Rodentia
03-02-2005, 03:00 PM
Even better. In the Brand New Conference (BNC), with nine teams, NDSU is a #6 seed, gets a first round bye and plays #3 seed SDSU.

When NCAA College Hoops 2006 comes out, I will have to simulate this tournament.

greenandgold01
03-02-2005, 03:57 PM
Even better. In the Brand New Conference (BNC), with nine teams, NDSU is a #6 seed, gets a first round bye and plays #3 seed SDSU.

When NCAA College Hoops 2006 comes out, I will have to simulate this tournament.


Can you imagine what the BSA will look like on the game? LOL!

Sioux_Yeah_Yeah
03-02-2005, 05:55 PM
Do they make arenas for every team or do they just have a generic one they use for many of the lesser teams, with just their school colors? I would guess the latter but have not played the game before.

greenandgold01
03-02-2005, 06:04 PM
Do they make arenas for every team or do they just have a generic one they use for many of the lesser teams, with just their school colors? I would guess the latter but have not played the game before.


They may just do the generic arenas.

jackrabbit1979
03-02-2005, 06:33 PM
i don't know how the setup would work in a nine team tourney, but i doubt the 6th seed would get a bye.

Unfortunately i don't expect NDSU and SDSU to be on NCAA March Madness 2006. *If this years game is any factor, UNC is not present, and they are one year ahead of us in the transition. *Hopefully i am wrong. *I would love to play SDSU v. NDSU and kick some bison butt. *;)

Rodentia
03-02-2005, 06:49 PM
In a 9 team tourmament, the 8th and 9th seeds play in the first round. The winner of that game advances to the second round.

In the second round:

#1 seed vs winner of the game between the 8th and 9th seed.

#2 seed vs the #7 seed.

#3 seed vs the #6 seed.

#4 seed vs the #5 seed.