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Bison_Kent
03-12-2004, 02:08 AM
http://www.ndsu.edu/ndsu/administration/president/chapman/interview/

Very good recall of NDSU's growth and its move to DI.

OCBison
04-12-2004, 08:25 PM
President Chapman spinning the propaganda machine once again. It's too bad he hasn't read the literature.

Increased alumni donations? Of the schools that receive the most in alumni funding only two schools that play I-A football are in the top 20 - Duke and Notre Dame. The rest are either Ivy League or DIII schools.

The highest ranked D-IA school? Maryland at 121. The Adminsitration at NDSU, and particularly in the Athletic Department, are seriously deluding themselves that this is in the best interest of the university.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more backlash from the faculty.

Bison_Dan
04-12-2004, 09:19 PM
ocbison sounds like a frightened und fan. We are already way ahead of und in research dollars and with Alien Tech coming to town it just kills them. It won't be long and NDSU will over take und in students too. Remember ocbison - und - think small be small! 8) 8) 8)

BisonMav
04-12-2004, 09:30 PM
....* und - think small be small! * 8) 8) 8)

;D ;D ;D ;D

89rabbit
04-12-2004, 09:59 PM
Increased alumni donations? *Of the schools that receive the most in alumni funding only two schools that play I-A football are in the top 20 - Duke and Notre Dame. *The rest are either Ivy League or DIII schools.



OCBison is your typical FES person. *She dosen't let the facts get into her way. *Again do you even understand what NDSU is doing. *They are moving up to I-AA in football, the SAME as the Ivy League. *NDSU is not moving to I-A were Duke and Notre Dame play. *::)


Since you don't seem understand the situation, why*should anyone take you seriously? *:-/

NDSU_grad
04-12-2004, 10:36 PM
OCBison, if you are here to engage in a civil debate over the parodies and benefits of going DI, then please speak your mind. If you're here to bash the move, then you are seriously wasting your time. Believe it or not, most on here are very educated about the move and understand all that goes along with it. I know in some of your other posts you've cited a book that apparently decries the pitfalls of big-time athletics. Could you summarize what that book says, since I've never read it.
A few other questions. What division do you think NDSU should be in and why? Why do you think the DI move will have negative impacts on undergraduate education?
Also, a point about alumni giving. What's your source, and could you separate private from public schools. I'm guessing you'd find a much greater divide using those criteria than you would classifying by athletic division.

OCBison
04-13-2004, 02:20 AM
The book I'm referring to is "Beer & Circus: What Athletics is Doing to Undergraduate Education". The author is Murray Sperber. He also wrote a book called "College Sports Inc". Two other excellent sources for trials and tribulations of DI athletics are "Major Violation: The Unbalanced Priorities In Athletics and Academics" by Gary Funk and "Intercollegiate Athletics and The American University" by James Duderstadt. (Duderstadt, by the way, happened to be the president of The University of Michigan.)

The academic literature is full of studies chronicling how DI Athletics bleed the university. Former Bison coach Ray Giac just got a job at Utah where he'll receive $500,000 a year to coach b-ball. 500K a year! Do you think the Bison will ever be paying their coaches that much? Let's hope not.

But in order to compete at the DI level the salaries are going to have to go up. Where is that money going to come from?

Where do I think the Bison should be? DII. NDSU is a regional university and that's the best place for it.

It's too bad that BisonBob (Entzion) screwed up the hockey bit so much. That would have been the smart way for NDSU to go. It's just that their marketing campaign for the hockey program was so backwards that it didn't stand a hope in hell of passing.

How does the move to DI hurt undergraduate education? In and of itself it doesn't. Except for the fact that more money will have to come from the University to support the Athletic Department but we can save that for a snowy day.

It's the desire by Chapman to couple the move to DI with becoming a Carnegie Research Level 1 institution. That's because he wants the school to be more like its peer institutions. In order for this to happen the professors will have to spend more time doing research and less time in the classroom. More classes being taught by TA's or part-time staff as the tenured professors focus more on research. Trust me on this one.

BisonMav
04-13-2004, 02:39 AM
So if NDSU had hockey, how would they be able to compete for recruits against the Ralph. No way, it would be a waste of time. The state of North Dakota has a school with hockey, they don't need two. This topic has been discussed by a lot of non-NDSU people that come to this messageboard and are very negative. IMO NDSU is looking to the future, willing to change, and the Bison will be successfull. NDSU must be gaining ground because others are throwing dirt in their face.

NDSU_grad
04-13-2004, 03:29 AM
The book I'm referring to is "Beer & Circus: What Athletics is Doing to Undergraduate Education". *The author is Murray Sperber. *He also wrote a book called "College Sports Inc". *Two other excellent sources for trials and tribulations of DI athletics are "Major Violation: The Unbalanced Priorities In Athletics and Academics" by Gary Funk and "Intercollegiate Athletics and The American University" by James Duderstadt. *(Duderstadt, by the way, happened to be the president of The University of Michigan.)

The academic literature is full of studies chronicling how DI Athletics bleed the university. *Former Bison coach Ray Giac just got a job at Utah where he'll receive $500,000 a year to coach b-ball. *500K a year! *Do you think the Bison will ever be paying their coaches that much? *Let's hope not.

But in order to compete at the DI level the salaries are going to have to go up. *Where is that money going to come from?

Where do I think the Bison should be? *DII. *NDSU is a regional university and that's the best place for it.

It's too bad that BisonBob (Entzion) screwed up the hockey bit so much. *That would have been the smart way for NDSU to go. *It's just that their marketing campaign for the hockey program was so backwards that it didn't stand a hope in hell of passing.

How does the move to DI hurt undergraduate education? *In and of itself it doesn't. *Except for the fact that more money will have to come from the University to support the Athletic Department but we can save that for a snowy day.

It's the desire by Chapman to couple the move to DI with becoming a Carnegie Research Level 1 institution. *That's because he wants the school to be more like its peer institutions. *In order for this to happen the professors will have to spend more time doing research and less time in the classroom. *More classes being taught by TA's or part-time staff as the tenured professors focus more on research. *Trust me on this one.

NDSU is a national university. Look at the schools in DII. What do we have in common with UMC, Winona St., etc. Nothing. The money for the move up will come primarily from increased corporate sponsorship (which goes hand in hand with the move up to DI) and student fees. The students have complete control over any fee increases and the attitude amongst students on campus has been very positive. No money will come from the university's general fund or from the state taxpayers.
As for hurting undergraduate education, the scenario you present is going to happen at universities all across the nation as state appropriations become smaller with each legislative session. NDSU began to vamp up research long before any move to DI was announced, so I don't see how those two things go hand in hand. You suggested reading material for us, I suggest you read this:http://www.ndsu.edu/ndsu/news/division_I/NDSU_Division_I_MarketRes.pdf

I think the university has to be responsible to concerns such as yours, but I guess what bothers me about your posts is that you seem to know very little about NDSU's specific situation. We're moving to I-AA, not DI. Our atletic budget will need to be increased by about 2 million dollars, an extremely small portion of the university's total budget. Also, this is about the same amount that would be required to add DI hockey. I don't understand how you can say DI athletics is evil and yet be a proponent of DI hockey. That doesn't make any sense.

Bisonguy
04-13-2004, 04:07 AM
OCBison,

How much does Dean Blais make? ::)

Bison_Dan
04-13-2004, 01:11 PM
Not as much now that Ralph has passed away. No more cash in paper bags passed out at the frozen 4.

::) ::) ::)

Oh ocbison - und had a lot to do with NDSU not going D1 in hockey.

OCBison
04-13-2004, 09:08 PM
A) NDSU is NOT a national university it's a regional university. Look at where it draws students from.

B) Why is that you're unwavering in your believe of the study that NDSU has commissioned regarding their move to DI but you question what the independent research says on the matter. That makes no sense whatsoever.

C) Are you prepared for increased ticket fees, games on weeknights, no back to back games for men's and women's b-ball? More importantly are you prepared for losing seasons? Look what happenend when the Bison went 2-8 a few years ago. The customers stayed away in droves.

NDSU_grad
04-13-2004, 09:30 PM
This is starting to get fun.
A) NDSU draws students from all over the country and globe. It's peers our Oregon State University, Wyoming, etc. It is a national university.

B) I cannot comment on the "indenpendent" research you provided because I haven't read it. However, I question any social science research. I think their use of statistics is questionable and their methods prone to bias. JMO.

C) Yes, yes, yes, and ? My main focus is football, and we will not suffer through losing seasons in football. I would like to see M/W bball do well and I think it will in time, but in the short run I am very prepared for losing seasons.

I've answered all your questions, but you still haven't answered mine. Why is DI hockey ok but all other DI athletics are pure evil?

somebison
04-13-2004, 09:39 PM
Look what happenend when the Bison went 2-8 a few years ago. *The customers stayed away in droves.

even with the "droves" staying away, NDSU averaged over 10k (http://www1.ncaa.org/eprise/main/Public/pa/stats/football/attendance/division2)

Bisonguy
04-13-2004, 09:53 PM
even with the "droves" staying away, NDSU averaged over *10k (http://www1.ncaa.org/eprise/main/Public/pa/stats/football/attendance/division2)


NDSU was even second in the nation for DII in 2002. That says a lot about DII, but even more about NDSU. ::)

OCBison
04-13-2004, 09:54 PM
True enough - quid pro quo.

I didn't necessarily say that DI hockey was OK and all other DI sports are pure evil. IMHO I think NDSU should have worked harder to get the hockey program up and running. Perhaps we'll agree on the fact that they did an absolutely horrible job of presenting the idea to the F-M area.

Why am I anti-DI sports? I believe that DI athletics long ago passed the stage of helping college's fulfill their missions. Is the mission of the University of Michigan to provide entertainment to 110,000 of it's "supporters" for a minimum of 6 home dates every fall? I don't think so. It's mission is to educate its students.

Every year DI athletics is moving closer and closer to "display" from "play". For the big-time DI sports like football, basketball (men's and women's) and, yes, even hockey the whole concept of the student-athlete is a misnomer. At DII you get a purer version of what a student-athlete should be.

As coaches and AD's it's no longer about using sport to help develop the individual it's about increasing revenue streams.

What's going to happen to the V-ball program? For years they've been able to attract top quality S-A's because they could honestly tell them that they had a legitimate shot at a National Championship. What do they tell them now? That was the recruiting pitch for women's b-ball, softball started to use it and look what it did for them.

On the men's side that was a claim that Bucky could make year in and year out. Look what it did for them. Football had it going for a while and almost did it again a few years ago. It's never happenend for men's b-ball and the likelihood of it happening at DI are as remote as Pluto.

Look we disagree. I don't think Chapman did his research well enough when he decided he wanted to make this move and I would be very surprised if he stuck around long enough to see it through.

NDSU_grad
04-13-2004, 10:04 PM
I actually agree in part with your view of DI athletics. *However, we *have to keep some perspective. *NDSU isn't going to be Nebraska, Michigan, etc.
I do agree that the old administration handled the hockey thing horribly. *In hindsight I'm glad they did because I don't like hockey and would much rather watch I-AA football. *
As far as the purity of college athletics, I would argue that DIII is the only pure form of college athletics left. *However, unless you're a small private college I don't think DIII is the place to be.

As far as what the coaches will tell kids during their recruiting visits, it's quite simple. They'll tell them they'll be playing DI ball, and that means everything to a 17 year old kid. It has been basically impossible in mens bball to recruit talented high school kids because of the perception of DII basketball. We've already signed our best high school recruiting class in history despite the fact we will not be eligible for postseason and don't even have a conference to play in. That says alot about DII right there.

To turn this thread around a little bit, if you were queen for a day what kind of changes would you make to DI athletics to make it more "pure".

Bison_Dan
04-13-2004, 10:08 PM
First: Generic independent research on moves from DII or DIII to DI A does not apply to all universities. If you're using that as a basis then you're dealing in generalities, not facts.

Second: Increased tickets prices are a fact of life. What I am looking forward to is playing the Gophers, Iowa state and U of Iowa, Wisc. in all sports and watching und lock horns with mighty crookton and still increase their ticket prices. Just look at the hockey and FB tickets pricing and all the bitching going on at the sue site.

Third: NDSU has been either first or second in attenance since ever. In 2002 they were second and lost 1400 people and und lost 1040 fans. So what's your point!

I get the feeling that ocbison isn't very smart. I wonder who read you that book that you quote all the time.

::) ::) ::) ::)

89rabbit
04-13-2004, 10:52 PM
First let me say that OC_Bison has not "quoted" her book yet. She just says that it backs up here point and she is waiting for us to do the homework to disprove her assertions.

Second she does not understand what NDSU's move is all about. She has not demonstrated a basic understanding of what D-I is. Let me ask you OC, can you tell me the difference between I-A, I-AA, and I-AAA. It is not hard. It is on the NCAA web site. Do some homework before you start bashing.

Third does she understand what D-II looks like outside of the NCC. If not look up Upper Iowa, look up Newberry, look up the new face of D-II and tell me that any of the NCC schools (besides Augie) fit the profile.

Forth, her last post made a better arguement for D-III then staying D-II. Unlike OC_Bison I can show you D-II school (with and without hockey) that are in our old Conference (the NCC) that are having the kind of problems she is talking about. USD is cutting baseball (D-II no hockey).

http://www.usdcoyotes.com/sports/news/release.asp?RELEASE_ID=1831

MSU-M is thinking of cutting Men's swinning and Men's tennis (D-II with hockey)

http://startribune.com/stories/503/4685145.html

Looks like even in D-II revenue streams are important.

Finally in her last post she again shows her ignorance of College athletics by using Michagan as an example. They do have a killer athletics dept. and they are also very well represented academically. When I was looking looking to apply to law school in 1989 do you know who had the #1 ranked school in the country? That is right Michiagan was ahead of Harvard, go figure. Oh and by the way OC_Bison has held up the Ivy League as an example of folks who do it right. Well, first the name Ivy League comes from their athletics conference. Second NDSU is moving into the same classification as the Ivy Leauge schools. OC, I am ready to have an intelligent exchange with you, but please do your homework and back the things you say up with some evidence that you can share.

89rabbit
04-13-2004, 10:59 PM
It is time to bring out the FES article again. *OC, this one is for you. *SDSUFAN posted this over on the Jackrabbit board, but I am sure you can see its relevance to NDSU.




Chuck Cecil Class of 1959 and M.S 1970 at SDSU and an administrative aid to the SDSU President, the Late Hilton M. Briggs, writes a weekly column for the Brookings Register. *Unfortunately his column is not on the internet. I retype his column from my print version of the August 22, 2003 edition of The Brookings Register.

Chuck *like myself is over 50 and has *been a big proponent for the move to D1. This column is for the nay-sayers

STUBBLE MULCH- AUGUST 20, 2003
BY Chuck Cecil *

A hotbed for FES recruiting

Recruiters for the Flat Earth Society are coming to Brookings. They believe our ;someplace special; town has great potential for membership.

The FES decision was made after the society officials read comments by those who oppose the University;s decision to move to Division I in athletics.

These perpetual nay-sayers *are just the kind of folks the society is looking for.

The Flat Earth Society, as some of you may recall from your history lesson, also kicked and screamed over approval of funds to finance the voyage *in 1492 of the Pinta, the Maria and the Santa Maria.

In fact the FES members became so distraught that they called for the heads of *Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand, who financed the journey to the end of the world. *Believe it or not there is some of that going around in Brookings relative to the current situation.

The Society, which remains comfortable with the world as it was 50 years ago when there were only 97 chemical compounds on the element chart has also been against acceptance of every one of the last eight chemicals since they were discovered and added to the *chart. *The new elements were discovered by the way in a Division I school laboratories. *

FES was also against highway maps.

Last Friday morning, South Dakotans were the only citizens of any state that did not have a Division I school. *SDSU was the only Land Grant University not a *Division I member. *By 10:15 a.m. that *morning, we joined the rest of *society.

Interestingly, just a few hours after the *Division I announcement was made, two SDSU basketball greats, Austin Hansen of Valley Springs, and Sherri Brende of Baltic, were married in Baltic.

With the wedding of these two shooting guards, No 10 and No 22, I look for a pretty good *three point *expert to be playing Division One basketball for the Jackrabbits in about twenty or thirty years.

The future of South Dakota State and students not yet born is, what this thing is really all about.

We all need to remember that the university was here and survived changes long before any of us were admiring the skills of the likes of Hansen and Brende on the Frost Arena Basketball court. *

I am quite certain the university that belongs to all the South Dakotans , not just Brookingsites, will survive other changes coming down the pike, too. *I guarantee you that SDSU will be here long after we temporary residents are no longer season ticket holders.

So for all the students who in the next century *will come to SDSU, *let;s make our state;s entry into Division I a successful one.

Oh by the way, they;re some Division II news. *Among the *10 new members of the athletic division SDSU just left were four schools from Puerto Rico, plus Goldey-Beacom College, Green Mountain College, Holy Family College, North Greenville College and the University of Sciences in Philadelphia.

Fortunately, despite FES objections, we now have detailed road maps so we;ll all be able to eventually locate just where these obscure Division II *members are located.

I;m pretty sure the last six are all within the confines of *America, which fortunately Christopher Columbus discovered despite efforts to the contrary.

JBB
04-14-2004, 12:03 AM
Volleyball or any sport for that matter is going to get better, thats whats going to happen. We wont see competition like the NCC again, its generally going to be better, a lot better. Our schedules, in all sports, will be full of teams that would win the NCC or the DII national titles. Those things dont mean much to us anymore and certainly dont mean anything to the athletes that are coming to NDSU.

If NDSU keeps its focus on student athletes our programs will succeed because they will provide outstanding athletes with a chance for an education. Thats what its all about. From there you can be as cynical as you want.

bisonranch
04-14-2004, 05:27 AM
The debate about the D-I decision is over. If you want to compare NDSU to any schools in sports, compare to Idaho St, Montana St. and Montana. Those schools aren't powers in all sports but they compete. Fargo is in a much larger city than any of those schools are in and we have the possibility of getting recruits from more populated areas such as WI, IL, & MN like we already have. We will do fine, and I think there is good leadership in Taylor and Chapman as they have proven already.

OCBison
04-14-2004, 08:25 PM
OK I'm not really sure how to do that little box thing with someone else's quote so you'll just have to bear with me. I also don't have a lot of time today so I can't respond to everything. :-[ I know how that must disappoint some of you.

Anyway, with regards to the comment regarding the Ivy League by 89rabbit "first the name Ivy League comes from their athletics conference".

The Ivy in Ivy League refers to the buildings on the campuses. Not only do many of them look alike on the outside but they are alike on the inside. The reason these fine academic institutions got together in the first place was because they are peer institutions. Their academic profiles are very consistent with each other. They also shared the same philosophy with regards to intercollegiate athletics.

That's why the NCC was such a good conference for NDSU. With the exception of Augie and Morningside they were like institutions. I know this upsets some of you when I say this but it was a very good grouping of regional schools. Just because NDSU draws international students and students from outside the upper midwest that does NOT make it a National university. (Please check to see how NDSU is characterized in ratings done by U.S. World News and other periodicals)

Do you know why the Presidents of the schools in the Big 10 were so reluctant to have Penn State join the conference? Because PSU did not meet the same academic profile as the other schools in the Big 10.

NDSU_grad
04-14-2004, 09:36 PM
Luckily for me I happen to have the latest edition of U.S. News and World Report America's best colleges. By the way, if you use this to rate colleges you're making a huge mistake. But since you brought it up NDSU is classified as National University, Doctoral, as is UND, USD, and SDSU. SCSU, UMD, and Minn. St.-Mankato are classified as Master's instituions. But the NCC is clearly the exception. I'm not going to take the time to look it up but I would assume all NSIC schools are not national universities, and the same could probably be said for the MIAA, LSC, and RMAC schools. It's very clear that NDSU and SDSU (and probably UND and USD, although the latter is in a world of hurt) are currently in the wrong division and need to align themselves with like institutions.

By the way, to use the "quote" feature, just find the message you want to quote. Towards the upper right hand corner of the message, there's small print that says quote. Click on that and it will take you the window that you normally type replies in. Just type your message after the quoted text and you're set.

89rabbit
04-14-2004, 09:41 PM
.

Anyway, with regards to the comment regarding the Ivy League by 89rabbit "first the name Ivy League comes from their athletics conference".

The Ivy in Ivy League refers to the buildings on the campuses. *Not only do many of them look alike on the outside but they are alike on the inside. *The reason these fine academic institutions got together in the first place was because they are peer institutions. *Their academic profiles are very consistent with each other. *They also shared the same philosophy with regards to intercollegiate athletics.

That's why the NCC was such a good conference for NDSU. *


You are 100% right. The NCC is full of peer schools. However the NCC does not have peers in D-II. The NCC is a D-I conference and NDSU and SDSU tried really hard to convince the others of that.

tony
04-14-2004, 09:41 PM
OCBison, you called Chapman's interview propaganda and seemed to think he was talking about the move to DI. If you watched the interview, you should already know that he didn't say anything about athletics until about twelve minutes in.

You also seem to be under the misapprehension that NDSU is moving to DI because the NCC is a poor fit. That's not it. The NCC was a very good fit. It's DII that isn't. NDSU's peer institutions are almost all in DI.

The median DII institution has less than 2500 students, doesn't offer any, or a minimal number of, graduate-level degrees, and has a mission nothing like NDSU's. This difference is becoming more pronounced every year. Not only is NDSU growing and adding graduate-level programs, but DII is adding smaller schools and losing bigger ones. Heck, most of the new schools being added to DII can best be described as four-year community colleges.

Sure, NDSU could have stuck in DII for a couple more years and watched DII continue to change, but that wouldn't make sense in the long term.

tony
04-14-2004, 09:45 PM
Hahaha! Talk about all being on the same page!NDSUGrad, 89Rabbit and I not only made our replies at the same time but we said the same thing.

JBB
04-14-2004, 10:20 PM
That is funny. *The NCC was a good fit. *There isnt a better fit out there from a travel perspective. *So what? *If you can afford it you make the move, its a better place to be. *

NDSU_grad
04-14-2004, 10:25 PM
Hey Tony (and anybody else), this is off topic a bit but I was thinking it would be interesting to compile a list of schools that were DII when the initial split was made in 1973, and see where those schools are today. I would be surprised in any current DII schools outside the NCC were DII in 1973.

tony
04-14-2004, 11:45 PM
I didn't exactly do that but here is something similar:\

Changes in DII membership (http://www.bisonville.com/changesdii.html)

Changes in DI-AA membership (http://www.bisonville.com/changesdiaa.html)

Of course, these are only football playing schools and most of the new DII schools don't have enough students to have both a band and a football team, they can't possibly sponsor football.

tony
04-15-2004, 04:45 AM
According to my data, there were 130 football-playing schools when DII started. 90 of them have left DII. 79 of those who left are now in DI.

When NDSU fans say that DI-AA is what DII once was, we aren't just blowing smoke.

Original DII schools now in DI:

Akron, Alabama A&M, Alabama State, Alcorn State, Appalachian St, Arkansas State, Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Austin Peay, Bethune-Cookman, Boise State, Bucknell,
Butler, Cal Poly-SLO, Cal State-Northridge, Cal State-Sacramento, Central Conn State, Central Michigan, Chattanooga, Connecticut, Delaware, East Tennessee,
Eastern Kentucky, Eastern Michigan, Florida A&M, Grambling State, Hampton, Hawaii, Howard, Idaho State, Illinois State, Indiana State, Jackson State, Jacksonville State, Lafayette, Lehigh, Louisiana Tech, Maine, Massachusetts, McNeese State, Middle Tennessee, Mississippi Valley State, Montana, Montana State, Morehead State, Morgan State, Morris Brown, Nevada, New Hampshire, Nicholls State, No.Carolina A&T, Norfolk State, North Dakota State, Northeastern, Northern Arizona, Northern Colorado, Northern Iowa, Northwestern State (LA), Portland State, Prairie View A&M, Rhode Island, SE Missouri State, South Carolina St, South Dakota State, Southeastern La, Southern, SW Missouri State, Tennessee State, Tennessee Tech, Tennessee-Martin, Texas Southern, Troy State, U La-Lafayette, U La-Monroe, UC Davis, Weber State, Western Carolina, Western Illinois, Western Kentucky, Youngstown State.

The change in membership is even more dramatic when you consider the non-football playing schools, but I don't have exact numbers for that.

Bisonguy
04-15-2004, 05:25 AM
Thanks for the info Tony. I started looking into it, but lost interest halfway through the CIAA :-/. I was beginning to think it was around half the schools (65-70), but obviously the numbers are much greater that left for DI. NDSU truly is going where it belongs, not that there was much doubt.

OCBison
04-15-2004, 02:26 PM
You know what fellas. You've put together a pretty good case. Well done. I concede.

Let's just hope that the Bison get into a conference that reflects their academic mission and goals as well as provides good entertainment for the folks in the F-M area.

NDSU_grad
04-15-2004, 02:29 PM
Tony, that info's great, and kind of what I expected. It definitely shows where NDSU belongs.