$100 million dollar project

[tony]

$100 million development proposed for downtown Fargo by Mary Jo Almquist (http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index3.cfm?id=76798&section=news).

I don't know what to think about this.

[TheBisonator]

I know what I think about it:

It's got a 14-story office tower, and I LOVE THAT!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Bisonfan01234]

Yeah because they soooo need a 14 story office building.

I can't wait for them to build it and then have no one to lease the space to.

[Bisonguy]

They had this on the FOX news tonight (I'm guessing it will be on the WDAY 10:00 for internet viewing)- Sounds like if this passes, the same management company for the Fargodome would be responsible for booking acts and would hopefully make a complimentary relationship between the new arena and the Fargodome. Mayor Furness seems to be all for this, and was the first to sign the petition to bring it to a vote.

The ONLY way that this arena could succeed is if it has a primary tenant *cough*Bison Basketball*cough*. I would prefer an on-campus arena, but if it has to be off-campus, downtown would be the best option. It would be a great shot in the arm of the downtown revitalization effort.

sidenote to downtown- ate at PD's on First the other night- possibly the best steaks in town- this restaurant would be be effected by this development. :'(

[Bisonfan01234]

If they ran free shuttles to and from the arena on game nights for NDSU students, it might not be so bad.

[NDSUstudent]

If they only switched the word hockey with basketball. Even though NDSU needs an arena update badly I don't want to see NDSU playing at the Ralph jr. The arena has to be basketball first, if you have ever tried to watch a game at the Ralph you would know what I am saying, poor sight lines and no atmosphere. The arena would have to be built for basketball and made to hold hockey. If built right this arena could be a huge asset for the city and for NDSU. This would give people an actual reason to go downtown.

[Bisonfan01234]

This should be for basketball only. NDSU basketball esp.
Bball in the winter, shows, conventions and concerts in the other seasons.

[TheBisonator]

Yeah because they soooo need a 14 story office building.

I can't wait for them to build it and then have no one to lease the space to.


Actually, downtown does need more office space, and buildings are being snached up for Renaissance Zone renovations, where a majority of them are residential. They need to build more NEW office/retail construction downtown, because it's needed. There's almost no more available existing historic buildings.

I think they could easily fill a 14-story office tower with tenants.

[JBB]

this project isnt surfacing because its going to stand empty.

[BISON_PRIDE]

I don't expect NDSU to comment much on the issue, I do expect them to announce a major project within the next five years to develop a basketball facility to rival that of SDSU's for recruiting purposes, and to keep it on campus.

[Bisonfan01234]

Why waste your own money if the city is going to build an ice arena for you?

If you provide shuttles for the students, it could be a great home venue.

[IowaBison]

Thank God they're building a 14 story tower. For those of you who haven't been to Fargo, this is actually a good idea because there are only about 7 million undeveloped acres of land left undeveloped in Cass County.

We're running out of room, my friends! It's time to build up!

[BisonCountry]

"It would seat at least 4,500."

This comment was the only thing that caused me some concern. What happen to a 8,000 seat arena? I don't think NDSU would want to commit to a 4,500 seat arena.

[Bison_Kent]

I believe the reason why Fargo lacks skyscrappers of cities of similar size is due to the land itself. I took a geology class my sophomore year at 'SU and I believe the prof explained that the soil in Fargo is not condusive to hold such a tall structure. The only way to do it would be to add additional support into the ground to hold the building up.

I am not sure how I feel about the arena project either. If NDSU would be using the facility, I would want it to be around 8,000 in capacity or greater. However, I am not opposed to NDSU using it if it is built to a larger size.

[Flintstone]

Most Skyscrapers are supported by drilled caisons or piles which extend to bedrock. I believe the new Scheels is on Caisons which go around 150 feet deep. A normal one or two story building is supported by a concrete footing and foundation which is approximately 5 feet deep.

I think the reason we don't see so many skyscrapers is that there is land readily avialable thus there is no need to build up as it is much more expensive than it is to build out.

[IowaBison]

Ah, but with the taxpayers $$$ in hand a skyscaper suddenly makes sense!

I love politics. It's like taking economics, a pile of manure, dropping it in a blender and hitting the puree setting for 3 to 5 minutes.

[tony]

Well, the initial cost of increasing the land area of a city by building out is smaller but the cost of extending water, sewer, electric, phone, cable, bike paths, roads, etc tends to add up over time. Not to mention that flood control becomes a huge problem.

If you want a downtown that works, you've got to have mix of entertainment, residential, office, and retail. You also want this mix to be dense enough that residents can walk to do their normal errands. The only way to do that is to build up. OTOH, I'm not sure how an arena does anything to help with that.

[JBB]

4,500 seems too small for me. *It duplicates the Civic seating capacity of about 3,000 for concerts. *Of course with the open floor available this place would hold more than 4,500 for concerets too.

Building up is smart. *Way smart. *If you own a block and put one story up you only get one storys worth of rent. *If you can build a multipurpose 14 story you get a much broader market and 14 floors worth of rent for the same land cost. *Its a lesson Im learning right now by developing twin homes instead of single family.

Its key for North Dakota to infill and build up. *Sprawling out onto some of the worlds richest farmland isnt always a smart idea.

[somebison]

What's the point of having a 4500 seat arena a block away from a 3000 seat arena :P

[JBB]

Thats a good pt. Hansel, it seems to me a new arena should fill a niche thats not occupied. This arena should fall in between the civic and the Fabulous Fargo Dome. Ive thought 8-10,000 would be about right.

[NDSU_grad]

A couple of things. First, IMO there is already too much urban sprawl in Fargo and I would love to see a commercial center in downtown Fargo.
Second, the soils in the Red River Valley are probably among the worst in the world for construction because Lake Agassiz deposited so much clay in the region during the last ice age and you have to pretty deep to find bedrock.
Third, 4500 is too small; I think a new arena would have to hold about 8000-9000 if they truly want to have a "medium-sized" arena.
Fourth, I would prefer to have the home of Bison basketball be on campus. Look at Gopher football in the Metrodome. They pea their pants if they get 50,000 to a football game. An on-campus stadium would benefit them, IMO.
If I lived in Fargo I would vote for it as long as I was guaranteed the Fargodome and the new center would be managed by the same company.

[Bisonfan01234]

They pea their pants? I've never heard of that...

NDSU already has a 7500 seat arena on campus: the BSA.

The only reason for an off campus site is if it would be considerably bigger.

But then again, who do we think we're kidding? With the kind of support NDSU bball gets, they should be happy if they average 4000 fans.

[BisonMav]

But then again, who do we think we're kidding? With the kind of support NDSU bball gets, they should be happy if they average 4000 fans.
Maybe with the Fab 5, and the other recruits the Bison are getting, the days of 5-6000 fans may return. Also the addition of some big name DI's to the home schedule.

[Bisonfan01234]

Cal Poly was ranked 6th in the entire DIAA nation.

Attendance? 11k.


You never know what Fargo fans are going to do.

[TheBisonator]

Thank God they're building a 14 story tower. For those of you who haven't been to Fargo, this is actually a good idea because there are only about 7 million undeveloped acres of land left undeveloped in Cass County.

We're running out of room, my friends! It's time to build up!

Whatever you say, Mr. Sprawl. I suppose you want us to be just like Phoenix, in that the sprawl has choked the city to near-death?? Because we all want to add 15 more minutes to our daily commute time in the next five years and give the city serious traffic and infrastructure problems, right??

God, I'm SICK of Fargo being the land of the two-story building. We need more VERTICAL construction, dammit!!!

[IowaBison]

Heh, if makes $$ to build up do it.

I haven't seen too many buildings going UP in Fargo.

[TheBisonator]

There's no reason why we can't build both UP and OUT. Look at Omaha for a good example.

[IowaBison]

I've been to Omaha, Bisonator. Omaha is a very nice city. Fargo is no Omaha.

Why not look at Minneapolis? or NYC?

(Not even close).

[Bisonguy]

Whatever you say, Mr. Sprawl. I suppose you want us to be just like Phoenix, in that the sprawl has choked the city to near-death?? Because we all want to add 15 more minutes to our daily commute time in the next five years and give the city serious traffic and infrastructure problems, right??

God, I'm SICK of Fargo being the land of the two-story building. We need more VERTICAL construction, dammit!!!


+++++++

And I'm not even a big architecture fan. ;D

The "perfect" shaped city has an equal length and width. Fargo is turning into a north/south line, which is why there's a bit of a land battle with WF. A vast amount of new infrascture costs will be the result of more expansion to the south.

Fargo has to start thinking "up" sooner or later, this project would be a good start.

btw- the city of Boston is smaller in land area than Fargo. ;D

[BraxtonT]

For those worried about the small seating capacity of the proposed arena in this project, on the graph on the front page of The Forum it states:

"Seating for about 4,500, designed to be flexible and expandable"

It appears to me they are thinking long-term. They want to pay for the project and then add the improvements (i.e. more seats) later.

[BISON_PRIDE]

This project will solve one thing, it will give Fargo a hockey venue capable of drawing tournaments in the upper midwest. Fargo is a perfect size city for hosting tournaments for young players, look at all our hotel rooms and shopping areas. This would be a big boost for the economy bringing a lot of rich hockey parents to town. Bison basketball is probably not in the equation, but I do like the idea, if it is primarily for hockey.

[roadwarrior]

I'm all for building high rise buildings in downtown Fargo. Whether its for office use or residential, they both make sense. The designs of the proposed buildings are pretty upscale compared to the rest of downtown.

Here's what I cannot figure out: What the hell does an office / residential development have to do with an arena?

[TheBisonator]

+++++++

And I'm not even a big architecture fan. ;D

The "perfect" shaped city has an equal length and width. Fargo is turning into a north/south line, which is why there's a bit of a land battle with WF. A vast amount of new infrascture costs will be the result of more expansion to the south.

Fargo has to start thinking "up" sooner or later, this project would be a good start.

btw- the city of Boston is smaller in land area than Fargo. ;D


A professor told me a while ago that a third-world city with the same exact sized land area as Fargo would have a population of 2,000,000 people, and a European city of the same size would have about 500,000. Fargo barely has 100,000, BTW.

[Bison_Dan]

That's a good thing right? ;D

[tony]

Here's what I cannot figure out: *What the hell does an office / residential development have to do with an arena?

I don't get that either... the arena is a closed box and doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the concept.

[TheBisonator]

That's a good thing right? ;D

Unfortunately, in some people's minds, it is. I'm not saying Fargo should really have 2 million people, not at all. But there has to be some density to a city.

[Bisonfan01234]

Edit by admin: start showing some respect to other posters.

[TheBisonator]

Good thing I was out for a while, and didn't catch 01234's "witty" repartee. ::) ::) ::)

[Bisonfan01234]

Bisonator, Fargo will never be the architectural utopia you envision.

Why? Because buildings are built with dollars in mind, not bricks.

[roadwarrior]

The University of Northern Iowa is currently building a new basketball arena for $21 Million. I could not find the seating capacity but would assume its quite a bit more than 4500.

[somebison]

The University of Northern Iowa is currently building a new basketball arena for $21 Million. *I could not find the seating capacity but would assume its quite a bit more than 4500.

I think it is around 6k

[TheBisonator]

Bisonator, Fargo will never be the architectural utopia you envision.

Why? Because buildings are built with dollars in mind, not bricks.

Tell this to all the architecture and design professors at NDSU and to all the prominent city planners, design professionals, developers and architects in the F-M area, and they'll laugh in your face for a good, long amount of time.

[Bisonfan01234]

Edited by Admin: Blah, blah, blah, I know all, you know nothing, blah, blah, blah. End of Edit.

And I'm saving this in case someone tries to delete it.

[TheBisonator]

01234 fails to realize that I've been a college architecture and urban design student for four years, and I know way more about these kind of topics than he will ever dream of knowing.

Having that said, let's get back to talking about the project. I personally think that if they want to put the new library in like they said they wanted, they could keep the same amount of office and condo space on that site, but make the tower taller and thinner and on one western corner, maybe 20-25 stories. That way, the new library could be adjacent to the tower on either the northwest or southwest corner.

Maybe they could also nudge the hockey arena over northward so it alligns with the 1st Avenue North sidewalk, and build the retail south of the arena touching the NP Avenue sidewalk seperated possibly by an linear atrium-style indoor plaza area. It could shoot out from the east end of the taller tower on the southwest corner, and the library could be on the northwest corner attached to the hockey arena.

Just some brainstorming thoughts popping up in my head.

[Bisonfan01234]

FYI, libraries have been obsolete since the creation of the internet.

No city is going to waste money to build new ones.

[NDSU_grad]

FYI, libraries have been obsolete since the creation of the internet.

No city is going to waste money to build new ones.

I think that post is a candidate for the "Bison01234 Classics"; it ranks right up there with the infamous "Hail Mary" discussion.

[WYOBISONMAN]

in-fucking credible..... :o

[BISON_PRIDE]

FYI, libraries have been obsolete since the creation of the internet.

No city is going to waste money to build new ones.

www.in-forum.com/specials/voterguide/index.cfm?id=74378

It appears 25,368 people in Fargo don't agree with you.

[IowaBison]

when do you think was the last time b01234 was in a library?

[Bisonfan01234]

Never.

[IowaBison]

well surprise, surprise.

[runtheoption]

BisonfanZERO1234,

Why do you continue to hijcak threads with idiotic logic?

Libraries are obsolete? Ever been inside a law school library where people research with *gasp!* books?

Try going to the Fargo library sometime. You can get a good book there, read it and learn something. But I imagine you are against using a facility that uses public tax dollars to build it. Too much like a farm subsidy. Except this is subsidizing education, creativity, and an open mind that is capable of intelligent discussion.

Do you even go to or have ever attended NDSU? There is a library there, too. I suppose we should just tear that down and put Field Turf over it.

[Bisonfan01234]

BisonfanZERO1234,

Why do you continue to hijcak threads with idiotic logic?

Why do you continue to waste our air?


Libraries are obsolete?

yes


Ever been inside a law school library where people research with *gasp!* books?

Books contain text. Text can be digitized and put online for anyone to access for free. *gasp!*


Try going to the Fargo library sometime.

No.


You can get a good book there, read it and learn something.

First of all, I don't read to entertain myself. Secondly, why when I could get that text online without leaving my house?


But I imagine you are against using a facility that uses public tax dollars to build it.

YES!


Except this is subsidizing education, creativity, and an open mind that is capable of intelligent discussion.

LOL! You should write for the forum.


Do you even go to or have ever attended NDSU? There is a library there, too. I suppose we should just tear that down and put Field Turf over it.

They should keep the computer clusters there, perhaps add a few more, and turn the rest into deperately needed classroom space.

[runtheoption]

First of all, I don't read to entertain myself. Secondly, why when I could get that text online without leaving my house?

This little quote speaks volumes about you, more than you know. It answers a lot of questions on Bisonville posters minds.

[TheBisonator]

Books contain text. Text can be digitized and put online for anyone to access for free. *gasp!*


You are EL WRONGO on that one, buster. Most text that has been written and published, either copyrighted or in the public domain, is still not accessible online, either on the internet or on databases. Trust me, I know. I do LOTS of research projects.

[Bisonguy]

Libraries have computers that are subsidized by the government for people that don't have computers at home to view digitized text. ;) :o :-/ ???

[TheBisonator]

Libraries have computers that are subsidized by the government for people that don't have computers at home to view digitized text. ;) :o :-/ ???

Boy, 01234. Talk about irony. ;D ;D ;D

[Bisonguy]

Forgot what I originally was going to post about-

Look at who thinks what should be in the proposed arena- http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=76919&section=Columnists&columnist=Mi ke%20McFeely

Told ya he isn't so bad........

[Bisonfan01234]

I said the campus Library should keep it's clusters and maybe add some more.

Computers are the future. Save paper for more important things.

[TheBisonator]

I agree with McFeely in that an NDSU basketball arena which can accomodate hockey (similar to the Target Center) would be perfect for the arena for that site.

It's better to build an arena that's mainly for basketball with a hydraulically-lifted floor and a set of retracable 6 rows of bleachers that can be configured to hockey (i.e. the Target Center) than a stationary hockey floor that you just slap a basketball court on (i.e. the REA).

[NDSUstudent]

An arena like the target center or the kohl center(U of Wisc) would be perfect for downtown, anything but a Ralph jr(basketball isn't made to be played on a hockey rink) or Betty(too small) type of arena. Instead of having the people who designed the Ralph design this thing they should open it up and have a competion and have the voters decide on the best plan.

[Bisonfan01234]

The one thing that I really hate about the Betty is that retarded half-bball/half-vball in the center.

Ugh, talk about ugly.

Put a big Sioux head or a North Dakota outline or something green in the center. Good god.

[Bisonguy]

Bonus points if the BB court is above the first couple rows. ;D

[TheBisonator]

Bonus points if the BB court is above the first couple rows. ;D

Like Williams Arena?? Ugh. I know a lot of people like the Williams Arena court, but I don't like the idea of a basketball court being raised 4 feet off the floor. I think it's the only court that exists that's like that, anyway.

[tony]

An an interview on WDAY tonight, Gene Taylor spelled out the obvious - no way would NDSU be interested in playing in a 4,000 seat arena because NDSU is going to need 8000-8500 seats.

[Bison_Dan]

I think that down the road a nice 8-10 thousand seat arena joined to the dome would be ideal or joined to the BSA on old Dakota field. ;D

[Bisongold]

Do the Bison need a new facility for BB or would a remodel of the BSA be adequate? I'm thinking that a new one is needed to allow for practice facilities ( in the BSA) for all sports. However, at the same time, the BSA has worked for quite awhile. It does, at a minimum, need a major facelift. Perhaps adding a practice facility with weight room would work with the remodeling of the BSA? Just a thought. Could someone please lay out the rational for a new facility? I'm not against progress at all but would like to know what goals for adequate space are we shooting for??

[IowaBison]

I think that NDSU needs a new arena. While watching the men's game last night, I spent a little time looking at the building and there is no way it can be remodeled into anything of long-term quality.

[Bisonfan01234]

I think that NDSU needs a new arena. While watching the men's game last night, I spent a little time looking at the building and there is no way it can be remodeled into anything of long-term quality.




Hardly.

If you put a new brick exterior and had all permanent seats, the BSA would be fine.

Throw a modular track in the Dome during the winter, throw some new turn on Dacotah and bubble over her in the winter, and you're set.

At minimal cost.


-OR- (best case) that new arena can be worked out to 8k fot bball and NDSU plays in there, in which case the BSA can be permanently converted to practice space.

[Herd_Mentality]

"A new brick exterior and new permanent seats..."

You're kidding, right? With that cost alone and not updating some of the other parts of the arena (concessions, bathrooms, etc) that would be the worst possible way to go.

[Bisonfan01234]

You're telling me that an entirely new arena, which would include a new brick exterior, new permanent seats, new consessions, and new bathrooms PLUS the building itself would be cheaper?!

[IowaBison]

it might be


putting brick on the BSA would be a major waste of money

[Bisonfan01234]

Because?

Putting brick on a new building would cost the same as putting brick on an existing building.

And with an existing building, you don't have to build it. It's already there!

[IowaBison]

sometimes building new costs less than remodeling

[Bisonfan01234]

Sometimes monkeys fly out of butt.

[Big_BisonFan]

Why would you put brick on the old building anyway?

Just because?

[Bisonfan01234]

You certainly don't have to.

I was just thinking that it would look a lot better.

[Herd_Mentality]

Let's take an example within the community. The cost to raze the current Walmart and build a new Super Walmart came in at less than 1/2 the cost to do what they did...just add on.

If you're going to put together an arena, why throw away money at a short term solution? Turn the BSA into a practice/volleyball facility. As nostalgic as I am about Dacotah field, it's time we raze that facility and put the space to good use.

[Bisonfan01234]

I'm all for doing the cheapest thing.

I just don't believe you.

Where did you get your figs. for walmart, anyway?

[Herd_Mentality]

I'm all for doing the cheapest thing.

I just don't believe you.

Where did you get your figs. for walmart, anyway?

From a source within Walmart, which was echoed by one of the contractors that bid the job...

The cheapest thing? My friend, I give you the Alerus.

[IowaBison]

you can keep it

[NDSUstudent]

Actuall building new and renovating are pretty much equal when it come to cost

New Fargo High School: 34 million
Renovating Discovery into a High School: 30 million

With the radical changes the BSA would need it would make more sense just to start over and build new. A new arena would probably run about 40 million. NDSU could ask taxpayers to pay half(year and a half extension to Dome tax) and NDSU foot the other 20 million. Here is an example of what NDSU should build the arena cost was 36 million for NIU and it would be a little more today, but something like that would be well worth it.
http://www.convocenter.niu.edu/about/galleries/index.html

[NDSU_grad]

Actuall building new and renovating are pretty much equal when it come to cost

New Fargo High School: 34 million
Renovating Discovery into a High School: 30 million

With the radical changes the BSA would need it would make more sense just to start over and build new. A new arena would probably run about 40 million. NDSU could ask taxpayers to pay half(year and a half extension to Dome tax) and NDSU foot the other 20 million. Here is an example of what NDSU should build the arena cost was 36 million for NIU and it would be a little more today, but something like that would be well worth it.
http://www.convocenter.niu.edu/about/galleries/index.html


That looks like a nice arena. From the outside it kind of reminds me of the Dome in Minot. I bet NDSU could get it done cheaper than 36M. For one, we don't need an arena quite that big, and I bet labor costs in Fargo would be cheaper than in Illinois. Just my .02.

[Tatanka]

I'd like to see SU put up something like the Knapp center in Des Moines (Drake University). Granted it's 12 years old but they put it up for 12.5M but the building is sweet. It seats about 7K for basketball but all the seats (if my recollection serves me well) are foldaway, revealing 5 recreational courts, a 200m jogging track, etc. Nice little arena.

I tend to agree that the BSA is, well, not worth the effort to renovate. Use the space from Dakota field, and call the new building the Dakota Fieldhouse. Use the BSA for practices, student rec, office space, etc.

[Bisonfan01234]

t seats about 7K for basketball but all the seats (if my recollection serves me well) are foldaway, revealing 5 recreational courts, a 200m jogging track, etc.

7000 retractable seats...5 courts...200m track...where have I seen a place like this in Fargo before....hmm....OH YEAH THE BSA!

[Tatanka]

Take a trip to Des Moines (yes, I know, it's in Iowa, but go anyway) and visit this place, THEN form an opinion. To say the Knapp is like the BSA is like saying the Fargodome is like the Dakotadome in Vermillion... ::)

[Bisonfan01234]

Hardly!

If the BSA had all seatbacks, it'd be EXACTLY the same thing.

[Tatanka]

::)

[NDSU_grad]

I've been in both arenas. There's really no comparison. The only thing I don't like about the Knapp Center is how the top bleachers extend straight across the arena rather than ending at the court or curving around. Makes for about a few hundred seats with horrible sightlines for a basketball game.

[IowaBison]

I agree, those top few rows are awful.

That being said, I think it's horrible what happened to the Knapps, goddamn Klopeks!

[MRBISON]

Living in Mankato, I have been to Bresnan arena for the Bison basketball and wrestling matches. Their facility is really nice. Great atmosphere!.....You can go on their website and see pictures of it. I think it cost about 17-18 million $$.

http://www.msumavericks.com