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Guest
10-15-2002, 03:23 AM
What's the latest on the Dakota schools possibly moving to Division I-AA? I know NDSU is in and UND is out, but weren't the S.Dakota teams also mulling it over?

Personally, I'd love it if all four went I-AA and joined the Big Sky. We really lost something when we lost Boise State and Idaho. Adding Portland State and Sacramento State isn't the same. They're West Coast commuter schools and aren't nearly as good a fit as the four Dakota schools would be. The other teams farther out west might disagree but many of

Bisonguy
10-15-2002, 03:38 AM
USD is staying D2, and SDSU is supposed to decide this month, I believe.

JBB
10-15-2002, 11:02 PM
I dont understand the public stance of the Big Sky. they say they arent interested in NDSU and SDSU because of travel. i was wondering if you had any insight? I think SDSU is going to move up. The administration is talking favorably of the move. That would mean NDSU and SDSU would be looking for the same conference affiliation. I hope they dont push their provisional period a year past NDSU.

Guest
10-16-2002, 05:46 AM
I think the Montana schools would be all for it. In fact, I would trade Portland State and Sacramento State for you two in a heartbeat. But I think the schools on the West Coast see the Dakotas as too far away.

Personally, I would like to see this:

Montana
Montana State
Idaho
Idaho State
Weber State
Northern Arizona
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
plus any of the other two Dakota schools that want to move up.

If not the Big Sky, then what other options do you have? And have you heard the Big Sky is not interested -- officially?

wsuwarrior
10-16-2002, 09:30 PM
This brings an interesting question, although it doesn't apply to NDSU, because they are moving.
The NCC has: North Dakota, MSU-Mankato, St. Cloud, Augustana, Nebraska-Omaha, South Dakota, and in 2 years, Minnesota-Duluth. Who would the NCC pull from the NSIC to be the 8th team? My best guess goes with Northern State (SD). And I'd be left to wish Winona State would just give up an go to D-III :(. I wish more money went into athletics here so that we could get out of the NSIC, but it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.

Bisonguy
10-16-2002, 11:09 PM
MontanaStateFan,

I believe NDSU will be presenting themselves officially to the Big Sky at the end of October. The other possible conference affiliation would be the Gateway/Missouri Valley. Some of the concerns for NDSU in the Big Sky are that some of NDSU's sports aren't represented(wrestling,etc.), and the travel to the west coast schools. I think the renewed rivalries with the Montana schools would more than offset that. A lot of my classmates from NDSU that still live in the Fargo area are from Montana and would love to see NDSU in the Big Sky.

JBB
10-17-2002, 04:39 PM
The only evidence we have are statements from the BSC commish stating they are not interested in expanding and if they were they would probably be looking West. On the other hand NDSU officials have stated that their welcome by the BSC and other schools in D1/D1AA has been very encouraging.

Its good to see the revival of the old Montana rivalries. I think we are going to play both Montana schools next year. The Grizzlies are already on the schedule.

The BSC is our most natural competition. The Gateway is second. We are going to see gateway schools on the schedule soon. Maybe the conferences are waiting to compete before any type of decision is made?

Guest
10-17-2002, 05:55 PM
wsuwarrior, Winona is in a great position for recruiting already and dominating your conference is not going to hurt things.

If they sold stock in athletic departments, I'd be buying yours.

wsuwarrior
10-22-2002, 09:40 PM
I appreciate the nice comments, Bison4ever. And yes, Winona State will dominate the NSIC in the coming years. But beating up on UM-Crookston and Wayne State doesn't gain us respect. Winona Coach Tom Sawyer has done a great job scheduling talented teams from other conferences. But Very few are willing to respect an NSIC unless it has a flawless season. And as to regards of Winona State, I just don't see the worth in having the Mineral Water Bowl as the main goal for the squad.

Bengal1
10-31-2002, 12:19 AM
I think the Big Sky is more than interested in NDSU and SDSU. *However, the commish (Doug Fullerton) has stated that the preferred number of teams is 10 (we have 8 now). *What I believe is happening is a waiting game for some current I-A schools.

That is, Idaho is struggling in I-A right now. *They are not averaging the 15,000 attendance for football, so they could be forced back in a couple of years. *The Big Sky would welcome them back, even though they've been less than kind regarding the 'Sky since. *San Jose State might also be forced down, and it's doubtful the WAC would allow them in the conference without I-A football (although I believe they'd drop football altogether). *UC-Davis, too, is a remote possiblity. *Either of the latter *would both provide a travel partner for Sac State. *

He also stated in an interview a few weeks back that there is a certain amount of time (in years) that a recent division II school has to wait until they can be considered for post-season division I play (I'm not sure of the timeframe).

Personally, I'd love to see NDSU and SDSU. *They have a great tradition, and they would fit in well. *I wouldn't be surprised to see them both in the conference after some of the I-A turmoil is settled.

Guest
10-31-2002, 06:28 PM
Hi Bengal. Heck it might be easier to get to Fargo from Pocatello than from Moscow to Pocatello. At least Fargo has a decent airport within a few miles of the NDSU campus.

NDSU has about the same sized enrollment as UI and a pretty similar academic mission too. NDSU plays in a bigger dome than UI and is in a much bigger media market.

Finally, unlike most UI fans, NDSU folks have a refreshingly realistic attitude. For instance, I can assure you that NDSU won't see themselves as the next member of the Big Ten, whereas I'm convinced UI fans think they have a shot at the Pac-10.

So there's a little distance involved-that's the only negative. I think NDSU (and SDSU for that matter) as better potential members of the Big Sky than UI ever was.

BisonInTexas
10-31-2002, 09:33 PM
Speaking of the Big Sky conference, has NDSU made their presentation to them yet? It was supposed to happen in October.

Craig

JBB
10-31-2002, 11:03 PM
und is saving themselves for the Big 10, when they start an all Big 10 hockey league Im sure they think they will get the call to move in and move up. In the meantime the BSC would be a great fit for NDSU and SDSU. It wouldnt get the thing all the way to the MISSISSIPPI but the Red River of the North and I 94 are pretty important dividing lines. Travel between the 2 cities by bus or air is easy.

The airport in Fargo is right across the street from the Fabulous Fargo Dome and the NDSU campus. You would fly in and out of Sioux Falls for SDSU. Its good enough for every major rock n roll band in the country, it should be good enough for a couple of athletic clubs from out west.

The_Sicatoka
11-01-2002, 06:00 PM
Give me a break. Show me where UND has even breathed the words "Big Ten."

UND is taking more of a wait-and-see position regarding the transitions at UNC, NDSU, and possibly SDSU.

PS - Teams coming into Grand Forks use GFK (Grand Forks International Airport) which is just 3 miles west of UND. I threw that in just for JBB. ;)

Bisonguy
11-01-2002, 07:37 PM
Sicatoka,

It must be that everybody else that comes to the Alerus flies into Fargo, huh? ;)

The_Sicatoka
11-01-2002, 07:54 PM
Bisonguy:

Are you saying acts going to play at The Al or The Ralph are flying into Fargo and not directly into Grand Forks? That's just nuts. If that's the case those acts need new travel agents. ;)

The Ralph: http://www.theralph.com

The Al: http://www.aleruscenter.com

Bisonguy
11-01-2002, 09:34 PM
Yeah, there was a snippet in The Forum about one of the "boy bands" flying into Fargo, having a hotel in Fargo, having adult (I thought they were boys) beverages in Fargo, but performing(term used very loosely) in Grand Forks.

The_Sicatoka
11-01-2002, 09:45 PM
I can see how that would have happened recently.

GFK had major runway work done recently. Northwest was flying into and out of the GF AFB under a special arrangement! There were all sorts of special landing, departure, and loading rules and a lot of private charters weren't allowed to land at the AFB.

Hey, I view having those "boy bands" around for minimum time as a big plus. *;D

GFK is back at full force with a new, longer, able to support the AFB if its runways fail, strip.

tony
11-02-2002, 04:24 AM
UND is taking more of a wait-and-see position regarding the transitions at UNC, NDSU, and possibly SDSU.

Can you guys do the wait-and-see thing without whining so much about NDSU? Man, that would be great!

JBB
11-02-2002, 01:44 PM
Unfortunately the hilarious is operating at a loss. they are willing to do this in order to get acts to come in. The Fargo Dome has said it will stay competitive but wont run the place into the ground. The taxpayers of ND paid for the Dike while GF build that joint. Now the GF people are paying to run it.

Fargo desperatly needs a 10,000 seater to fill a gap that exists in this region. Apparently the Dome Authority realizes this and is willing to pay for one out of operating profits but needs a major tenant. I believe in the near future NDSU will step up to be that tenant.

The_Sicatoka
11-06-2002, 11:30 PM
Is the sales tax still in place to fund the FargoDome? Isn't the Dome paid for already? How's that revenue stream (if it's still there) showing up on their balance ledger?

The Civic is small and in a poor location for NDSU. Fargo could use that 8 to 10k seater like you say; however, the voters shot it down badly back in April 2000. I'm not sure how it'd sell right now either. Maybe a sure tenant (like NDSU and the FM Beez) would help.

And I'd have to agree with you guys that building The Al with a flood wall project going on was somewhere between poor PR and just nuts.

tony, what's UND said to displease you lately? Their past public statements came by request of legislators or media, didn't they? Did they put out something new? (Remember, I'm not UND, just an alumnus and fan.)

tony
11-08-2002, 03:20 PM
You haven't said anything lately, nor has the Herald, UND's president, or UND's AD.

Not the clearest writing, but I meant to convey skepticism that UND people really have the ability to switch from wait-whine-and-see to just wait-and-see mode. I've been pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.

The_Sicatoka
11-08-2002, 07:05 PM
Yes, they've gone "quiet" lately. That includes the Herald. Heck, the Herald recently ran a piece on a student who'd never heard of UND until he saw UND and BC playing for a National Title in hockey on ESPN. He checks out UND Chem. Eng. and is now a student. "Gee Grand Forks, DI exposure gained a student." Coincidence? I seldom believe in those.

As I've mentioned in other posts here, their (all of their, including the Herald, see above) quiet actions lately (for example, 'wellness center') don't parallel all of their words.

I believe it was JBB that pointed out at one point in this overall conversation that UND FB was looking for games on a IAA site. The swimming and diving teams just got back from duals at USAFA and Wyoming and are headed to meets at Minnesota and Notre Dame later this year. Hockey has played non-conference against IAAs Canisius, Princeton, and Yale and IAAA Niagara. Coincidence? Who knows, but it sure is interesting to note in light of other events around the NCC.

I believe they are taking actions to prepare themselves for the distinct possibility that staying D-II is just not feasible due to changes around them. If it doesn't happen they've still improved themselves. If it does, they've prepared. Dare I say "strategic planning"? ;)

JBB
11-08-2002, 11:22 PM
since when did lying become strategic planning? The und administration was saying they wouldnt be able to continue a rivalry with a D1AA NDSU at the same time they were advertising for D1AA football opponents and they continued to advertise. They may still have the ad up. That was at a time when they were still trying to sway public opinion against a move by NDSU. That may be strategic planning to you but it has a decidedly sinister and unwholesome aspect to it. It reflects your lack of character and ethics. It is not admired as "strategic planning". It is looked on as scornfull and deceitfull. It reflects, in its own small way, the motivations behind your entire university. :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-/ :-* :'( :o

tony
11-10-2002, 03:43 PM
JBB, I think that you're making a mistake by saying UND lied. Their president and AD have said a lot of things but none of them were lies. Why overstate your case?

UND's administration and fans have made some pretty stupid statements but UND's administration has never lied as far as I know. Not only that, they've finally stopped the public relations barrage so you might want to give them some credit for that.

JBB
11-11-2002, 01:53 PM
I do believe they have lied. The facts are in my statement above. Its hard to see it any other way unless they admit that a D1AA NDSU is the only D1AA team in the country they wont play football with. *Of course they could have been implying that in time the series would be halted but that wasnt said either. What really bothers me is the sicatoka trying to shed light on it as a cleaver strategic move.

Now that the barage has stopped, at least for now, can we assume that NDSU is going ahead no matter what happens so they gave up? that they are going to follow whatever NDSU does so they gave up? that they know NDSU wont move up after the provisional year so they gave up?

The_Sicatoka
11-11-2002, 03:03 PM
JBB:

Since it appears to be the premise of your diatribe, where did they say "wouldnt (sic) be able to "? You know, if you can't come up with that, you've raised a large problem for yourself.

I'd heard Roger Thomas continually say things like "we hope we can work out a way to continue." I'd heard Gene Taylor say much the same. (Half-time interviews, UND at NDSU game in FB.)

Now, is advertising for a game (key words: A GAME) against a IAA deceitful? Weren't you complaining about the cream-puffs in UND's non-conference schedule? So they look for a IAA opponent. Whoop-tee-doo. They're trying to toughen up that schedule (just for you I'm sure). RT has stated that the great majority of DIIs don't want to come to Fargo or Grand Forks and get whooped (most years).

And heaven help me if I would have hinted that NDSU would maybe stop their process after the provisional year like you did.

tony
11-11-2002, 04:55 PM
UND's spokespeople were not candid when they hinted that the rivalry would end if NDSU decided to go DI, that's true. IMO, JBB is taking it too far by calling them liars - it would be more effective to make fun of them.

----------

On a related topic, I talked with a friend from Fargo yesterday and he said that heard from four different people that NDSU was going DI to force the state to raise faculty salaries at NDSU. The conspiracy theory goes like this: Chapman promised to raise faculty salaries and DI requires that NDSU raise salaries by 16%. Therefore by going DI Chapman would force the state legislature to raise salaries at NDSU.

I was flabbergasted - I've heard a lot of crap about NDSU going DI, but this is the most stupid thing yet. First, there is no NCAA regulation that would force NDSU to raise salaries - as you can see by looking at the NCAA requirements for the various divisions (http://www.ncaa.org/about/div_criteria.html). Second, the people spreading this nonsense are acting like the state would be powerless to say no to NDSU in this matter. Third, the Carr Report would have mentioned this if it was an issue. Fourth, if it wasn't in the Carr Report, all those UND guys who were saying the Carr Report was a waste of money should have been pointing this problem out months ago. It's so preposterous, I'm wondering if he wasn't just yanking my chain. Anybody else hear this rumor?

The_Sicatoka
11-11-2002, 06:01 PM
The National Collegiate ATHLETIC Association has academic salary requirements for member schools? I could see for athletics personnel, but academic?

But, then again, we've heard that a "wellness center" is a requirement (Dr. Chapman stated that once), but that's not listed in your link.

If this rumor were so, wouldn't it have come out at the same time as the other NCAA D-I requirements, like "wellness center"?

tony, I'm thinking your neck should hurt (because I'm thinking someone is yanking your chain). ;)

JBB
11-11-2002, 06:02 PM
In the Websters American Dictionary, College Edition:

lie (n):
1. ...2. something intended or serving to convery a false impression; Imposture

I think the definition has clearly been met. Possibly NDSU answered the ad? Maybe we will travel to the grand cities for a guarantee?

I havent heard anything on the salary issue, but I do believe the faculty at NDSU has increased its average pay rate and 16% sounds about right. Raising faculty standards has been one of Dr. Chapman's stated goals. He wants to have a higher retention rate for current faculty and make it easier to attract new members.

The_Sicatoka
11-11-2002, 06:07 PM
JBB:

Didn't NDSU say they'd follow the recommendations of the Carr/CSL Reports? Didn't those reports say "conference first"?

It's a fun game this "did they mislead" game.

tony
11-11-2002, 06:57 PM
First, I'm 95% sure that there are people spreading the rumor about NDSU forcing the state to raise faculty salaries. I'll recheck and let you know though.

NDSU didn't mislead you about having to have a conference membership before going DI - when the Carr Report was written there was no such thing as a provisional year, this changed how everybody viewed the conference issue - everybody but UND fans. It means that NDSU doesn't have to have a conference until the end of next year.

Funny that I follow NDSU pretty closely and the only people who I've ever heard linking a wellness center (whatever the hell that is) with going DI are UND fans. NDSU has had a wellness center for what, two years? There is no Wellness Center requirement for DI. Unless you can show me an instance where Chapman said what you claim he did, I'll just chalk it up as another piece of misinformation from a UND fan.

The_Sicatoka
11-11-2002, 07:14 PM
tony: I swear I heard Dr. Chapman make the statement that a campus wellness center was a requirement (that NDSU already had met) at one of the press conferences. I can't find it (web searching) right now. I'll have to keep digging.

This "provisional year" thing, when did the NCAA introduce that?

The_Sicatoka
11-11-2002, 07:44 PM
I went to the source. I contacted the NCAA.

Apparently I misheard or misinterpreted a statement I heard Dr. Chapman make at a press conference. The NCAA says there is no direct "wellness center" requirement.

tony
11-11-2002, 08:57 PM
Oops. I didn't get the terms right. NDSU has five years as a provisional DI member with one of those being an exploratory year. The exploratory year was added in April, 2002 because they had been talking about reducing the provisional period to three years and when they didn't do that, they split the difference with the exploratory year.

I don't understand everything on the NCAA page but it sure makes it look like they're going to bump that five-year provisional phase up to seven years soon. (edited out because I misinterpreted something) Sounds like basketball will stay at eight or drop.

Source (http://www.ncaa.org/news/2002/20020415/div1/3908n20.html).

The_Sicatoka
11-11-2002, 10:48 PM
tony:

From the link you provided:


No. 01-120, establishing a seven-year provisional membership period, including one exploratory year, for prospective NCAA Division I institutions. (Effective date: August 1, 2002.)

Doesn't that say that NDSU has seven years as a "provisional" because it's effective 08/01/02 and NDSU declared after that?

tony
11-11-2002, 11:25 PM
That confused me at first too. There is a separate section for schools moving from DII to DI, rather than those coming from NAIA, DIII, or starting up brand new athletic programs. Just keep looking for the word, "exploratory". It's under Bylaw 20.

The good news is that first line made me think that they might be contemplating a seven-year period but in retrospect, there isn't any reason to think that.