PDA

View Full Version : NDSU shouldn't go DI because...



tony
10-05-2002, 05:46 PM
Feel free to place your arguments against NDSU going DI here.

For anybody who missed the press conference a month ago, NDSU is going DI regardless so you'd only be second-guessing a decision that has already been made, but it could be pretty interesting to look at these in a couple years (say when UND is deciding to go DI) to see how accurate your objections were and whether they apply to UND going DI as well.

Guest
10-07-2002, 12:48 AM
Cant think of one.

Bisonguy
10-07-2002, 01:37 AM
1) The UND fans won't piss and moan anymore.

2) The Herald will longer have propaganda to spread.




Nevermind, neither of the above could ever happen. ;D ;)

The_Sicatoka
10-07-2002, 03:31 PM
Why should I say anything?

The Fargo newspaper (not Grand Forks, Fargo) is doing it. And this before Saturday night (or was it Sunday morning?) in Vermillion.

(All rights of the following belong the The Fargo Forum.)

Mike McFeely column: Struggles invite legit D-I concern
The Forum - 10/04/2002

Prevailing wisdom concerning North Dakota State’s leap to NCAA Division I went something like this: While it is true the Bison will struggle for years to become competitive in most sports - decades might be a more accurate time frame for men’s basketball - football will be the saving grace of this decision. The proud Bison football program, always competitive in Division II, will have the shortest road to travel in its step to Division I-AA.

NDSU should be able to take what is in place now and, with an additional 27 scholarships, start making rumblings in I-AA in five years.

It sounded so good, didn’t it?

Well, prevailing wisdom took a punch to the gut last Saturday night.

That’s when little Augustana marched into the Fargodome and did something it does once every 40 years. The Vikings beat NDSU in Fargo, whipping the Bison 23-6. And somehow, it seemed like the game wasn’t even that close.

It’s been said already, but it is worth repeating: This was a stunning loss for the Bison. Not because they lost. That’s going to happen.

Not because they lost at home. That was going to happen eventually.

And not even because they lost a game at home to a perennial second-division North Central Conference team like Augustana. Even that is bound to happen once every generation.

No, it was stunning because the Bison didn’t compete against a team that was far from being a juggernaut. They were outplayed by a team that was, frankly, nothing special.

Augustana was not a team that caught lightning in a bottle and rode a wave of emotion and momentum to hold off a superior Bison team. Those kind of upsets can occur in college football.

No, the Vikings just played a normal, nothing-special game - content to take no risks, happy to punt whenever possible and pleased to simply concentrate defensively on stopping the Bison’s running game. Yet from opening kickoff to final horn the Vikings looked like the better team, led by the better coaching staff.

It was enough to make a person question the state of the Bison football program. It was enough to make a person question whether the football team truly is in any better shape to make the jump to D-I than other programs.

Even the most ardent of NDSU fans will admit this: A football program, no matter how traditionally powerful, is going to have down years. It’s part of the deal. Maybe some recruits didn’t work out, maybe a couple left, maybe a couple were lost to career-ending injuries, maybe a team just didn’t gel correctly. Whatever.

Suddenly a program used to going 9-2 or 8-3 in the regular season slips to 7-4 or 6-5. Distasteful for sure, but no big deal in the long run. Because boosters and fans know the program will bounce back in the next year or two. The juniors and sophomores and redshirt freshmen who shouldered the load in the down year will be older and more experienced. The program has a solid foundation on which to build.

But what if a team, like the Bison, goes from being a national championship contender loaded with NFL prospects to a team that finishes 3-7? And judging from the way NDSU played against Augustana, that is not out of the question. Remember, the Bison still have North Dakota, Northern Colorado, Nebraska-Omaha remaining on the schedule. St. Cloud State and South Dakota State will not be easy games, either.

It’s one thing to slip to 6-4. It’s an entirely different thing to fall off the table.

What does it say about the state of your program if that happens?

It says that the foundation is not as strong as it needs to be. It says there are major gaps in recruiting classes.

It says there are miles to go before the program can be competitive at a national level in Division II, much less I-AA.

To be fair, the Bison have been devastated by injuries. The loss of Craig Tangen and Chuck Klabo, in particular, has been crushing.

But what should alarm Bison followers is that Bob Babich and his coaching staff have been forced to take the redshirts off eight true freshmen to fill out the roster. That would indicate Babich is missing juniors, sophomores and redshirt freshmen who could do the job.

That, in turn, would indicate the next couple of seasons won’t be so pretty, either.

Maybe we’re jumping the gun. Maybe the Bison will travel to Vermillion, S.D., Saturday and defeat South Dakota. Then maybe over the rest of the season Babich and his staff will coach their tails off and the players will play their tails off and the Bison will rally to finish with a 6-4 record.

Then we’ll be talking about what a great job Babich did and how the gritty Bison players overcame myriad obstacles to set the table for the future.

Maybe.

But if not, if NDSU finishes 3-7, we’ll be talking about how the Bison face the Herculean task of building a I-AA football program basically from scratch. And we’ll be asking if Babich is the coach to do it.

You have to believe that’s not exactly what the NDSU powers-that-be had in mind when they set a course toward Division I.

Readers can reach Mike McFeely at (701) 241-5580 or mmcfeely@forumcomm.com

BisonInTexas
10-07-2002, 05:04 PM
I have been waiting for someone to post on this article.

First of all, I have no problem with people posting opinion pieces in a newspaper, the Forum or the Herald.

I do have a problem with the Foss article in the Herald, which was posed as an in-depth analysis of NDSU's prospects in D1, but was nothing more than a severly slanted piece of journalism. That is propaganda, not an opinion piece by Ryan Bakken or Mike McFeeley and that is why that particular article by Virg drew the protests of NDSU fans.

Second, if you are basing your decision on moving to DI on how your football team does in the first 4 weeks of the season, either (1)you won't be athletic director or president of the university for very long, or (2) you are a sports columnist spouting hypothetical situations. Look at it this way: You could reverse the logic of this piece (at the time it was written) and suggest that Augie could go undefeated this year and they should definitely consider going D1.

This is a long term decision and it matters not whether the Bison go 3-7 or win the national championship this year (the former is much more likely, unfortunately). Football programs can be revived (UND should know this better than anyone) and I think you can forgive the Bison one losing season every 30 years or so. The Bison struggles this year can be solved by hiring the right guy, if need be, but it doesn't affect the decision to go DI at all.

That being said, while you seemingly offer up this article as proof that the Herald isn't just UND's mouthpiece (i.e., Look! Even the Forum is doubtful of the move!), have you ever seen an article critical of the UND athletic department's actions in the Herald? Or better yet, have you ever seen an article supportive of an NDSU decision in the past?

Craig

The_Sicatoka
10-07-2002, 05:28 PM
The Herald editorial board has been critical of UND. Yes, it's true.

That said, come on, both papers know where their bread is buttered. That's reality. It's called "circulation" and you do things to not harm it. UND changes stance you know the Herald will too.

The Forum has been cheerleading NDSU's move (save the McFeely piece) all along because all along we knew what NDSU's decision would be. Forum Communications makes to much money from NDSU Athletics to bite the hand that feeds it.

And yes, NDSU'd be stupid to change a decision based on a guy with a column in a newspaper.

siouxrock
10-07-2002, 09:18 PM
2 WORDS THAT NDU SHOYLDNT GOTO D-1

THEY SUCK

Guest
10-07-2002, 10:07 PM
does the sicatoka always argue on both sides of every issue? Either the Forum article is meant to fuel the argument against going D1 or it is simply an opinion about legitimate concerns facing the program as it makes the transition.

I believe it is a legit airing of concerns but has nothing to do with the propriety of the decision. The herold stance is clearly speaking against the propriety of the decision.

und is concerned about supporting a status quo that has artifically kept their athletic bugets low so they could afford hockey. Now that is changing and the squeeling will never end.

No longer will they have the benefit of a competitive atmosphere in their minor sports including football and basketball. They will officially become a 1 sport school or move up and compete with peers in all sports.

tony
10-09-2002, 02:57 AM
Sicatoka says a lot of stuff and doesn't back it up (like the Forum cheerleading for DI).

One thing about this BB is that if you click on somebody's name you can get a list of all their posts so it's pretty easy to see what he's said about the DI move:

Posted an article from the Forum questioning NDSU's move to DI.

Brings up hockey a lot but doesn't say how this makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

Says that the Forum has been cheerleading for a DI move but hasn't backed it up with any links. You'd think there'd be at least a dozen links to chose from but he can't seem to find one. Of course, he doesn't explain why this makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

Says that big schools don't like sharing basketball money with small schools but doesn't say how this makes NDSU's move a bad one.

Comes up with some highly unlikely scenarios for what the NCAA might do in 2004 but doesn't say how this makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

Says college athletics should be eliminated but doesn't say how that makes NDSU's decision a bad one.

-------

None of the UND guys has ever posted anything saying why DII is going to be such a great place to be for the next twenty years, much less why it's going to be a better place than DI. All you have to do is look at the crappy way DII football has been run for the last ten years to see that it's getting worse every year.

The_Sicatoka
10-09-2002, 03:05 PM
Both sides? Maybe.

Guys, you truly understand an issue when you can argue for both sides of it. That's how they train lawyers (not that I am one).

No, NDSU shouldn't do something because of a columnist's opinion.

Yes, NDSU should look at the saliency of points brought out by the columnist.

There is a subtle, but finite difference in those. You need to understand that. It's called "don't shoot the messenger" and don't dismiss the message because of who the messenger is.

Where am I at in all this?

I'm torn. I'd like to see UND go Division I. That's the rah-rah "Go Sioux" side of me. The rational pragmatist says the logistics (conference, finances) need to be better understood (up front risk management) before making such a move.

Remember, the taxpayers of this State ultimately have to pick up all red ink. (Argue here about self-sufficient athletics and local control, etcetera, but both UND and NDSU are owned by the State and the State is co-signer on all debts incurred. Period.)

Newspapers and local bias

The Forum (in-forum.com) has had a "D-I Decision" section on its front page for about a year. I'm yet to find an in-depth article interviewing strictly NDSU faculty, staff or students against the move. I find such quotes buried in amongst numerous pro quotes. I find numerous all pro articles in that mix. The nearest thing all anti is when The Forum printed Dr. Kupchella's opinion piece and that was "editorial" or "letter to the editor" more than news story. Guys, show me the hometown newspaper without a pro hometown bias. They all do it. They have to. It's called circulation and without it the paper's dead. Is any paper going to bite the hand that feeds them?

The Herald is echoing UND's words today. They'll do the same tomorrow. Can UND turn on a dime regarding their position? Sure they can. They can turn just as fast as NDSU did two years ago regarding adding D-I hockey. (Taylor has said hockey is off the radar for at least 10 years with this move.)

Heck, if they do turn on a dime, they can blame it on NDSU and SDSU. They've said all along "for now" and "unless the landscape changes." Those are classic hedge-your-bet words.

The NDSU Decision, part one

How is NDSU's decision a bad one?

They haven't managed the risks (conference, money, facilities) well up front.

Yes, they have studies and surveys. It looks wonderful on paper. Do they have the dollars in hand or new arena (for BB) or conference affiliation? No. They just expect it to happen because a report says it could.

UND: Action versus words and do they match regarding Division I and NDSU's position?

UND has the vote last spring by students allowing them to raise fees to turn Hyslop into a wellness center. Dollars in hand. A campus wellness center is a D-I requirement. Coincidence? I'd guess not.

UND has the plan to modify old REA into the new BB/VB facility. The same student vote allows some of the funds to go for that. There's the facilities plan. Add to that that the plan includes new athletic training facilities and there's a complete facilities plan.

Conference? UND appears to be taking the wait and see approach. What will SDSU do? That matters in terms of conference, travel, opponents, logistics, and costs.

Sound like a "get it done up front, then jump" approach to me. Sounds like managing risks up front to me.

If or when UND would jump, they'd have to worry only about raising operating revenue. All of the other pieces would be in place.

The NDSU Decision, part two

Right now NDSU has to come up with both the additional operating revenue AND the plans and funds to build an arena.

Conference? OK, I'll give you that one. You won't get a conference unless you are committed, unless your name is California-Davis. They got effectively begged to move up by their neighbors. Or unless there is a conference that is forming up that would like you to join. That's what may happen if SDSU moves up.

I'm not saying the decision by NDSU to go to D-I is wrong. I'm saying the decision, without solid things in hand, is logistically mis-timed.

Other pertinent points

The NCAA re-evaluates all of its divisions and requirements to be in the division in 2004. Do we know what'll come out of that? No. It's a long time until then. A lot can happen.

Remember, NDSU is using 2003-2004, not this season, as their provisional year. A school has to get its paperwork into the NCAA and the NCC by 09/01/03 to do that. That's still quite a while away. A lot can happen.

Patience.

The key question for JBB and tony

And if this is the right decision for NDSU, why do you care what UND or The Herald thinks? If it's the right decision you're doing the right things and you'll prove them wrong. Have at it.

PS - Sorry for the long rambling post. I probably couldn't read and digest it all in one pass either.

tony
10-09-2002, 06:09 PM
Sicatoka, I was hoping that you'd organize your thoughts and then post. If anything you've become less coherent. It's hard to have a discussion with you if you can't focus. Foooooccccccusssss.

The_Sicatoka
10-09-2002, 08:53 PM
Like my first post said, you may have to re-read to digest it all.

I haven't changed any previous text or the locations of it. I just added headings to help with flow.

I could make some quippy comment like "focus," but it's not worth the effort.

siouxrock
10-09-2002, 09:24 PM
U name one sport the the bison are better then the sioux that draws over 5,000 fans
thast rite none
hahahahahhahahahahaha

Guest
10-09-2002, 11:35 PM
Sicatoka, headings are a poor substitute for making sense.

Look up "sophist" and see if it applies to you. Look up "specious" while you're at it. The biggest reason you are against NDSU going DI is because it's NDSU doing it and not UND. You show this in every single thing you write about this issue. Stop fooling yourself.

siouxrock
10-10-2002, 12:52 AM
NOBODY STILL HASNT NAMED A SPORT NDSU IS BETTER AT THEN UND WIHT MORE THEN 5000 FANS

BisonInTexas
10-10-2002, 05:41 AM
Yes, NDSU should look at the saliency of points brought out by the columnist.

And the salient points pertinent to the decision made over a month ago would be...? This would change NDSU's transition plans how?

I'm torn. I'd like to see UND go Division I. That's the rah-rah "Go Sioux" side of me. The rational pragmatist says the logistics (conference, finances) need to be better understood (up front risk management) before making such a move.

<snip for length>

They can turn just as fast as NDSU did two years ago regarding adding D-I hockey. (Taylor has said hockey is off the radar for at least 10 years with this move.)
Hockey should be off the radar. If that is not "up front risk management" and being a "rational pragmatist" when dealing with a move to DI, what is?



Heck, if they do turn on a dime, they can blame it on NDSU and SDSU.
They already are beginning to blame NDSU and they will turn on a dime.



How is NDSU's decision a bad one?

They haven't managed the risks (conference, money, facilities) well up front.

Yes, they have studies and surveys. It looks wonderful on paper. Do they have the dollars in hand or new arena (for BB) or conference affiliation? No. They just expect it to happen because a report says it could.


How in the hell are they supposed to have dollars in hand before they even make a decision? Or for that matter before they even know what it will cost? Ask for money just in case they decide to go DI at some point in the future? They have two years to get fund raising going. As you state later, "Patience". First you generate a proposed budget, then you figure out how much you need to raise, then you go out and raise the money. They have the proposed budgets. They are working on the fund raising aspects - that is Erv Inniger's only job.

As far as the "They just expect it to happen because a report says it could." What facts do you base this statement on? Or is this just wishful thinking on your part?



UND has the vote last spring by students allowing them to raise fees to turn Hyslop into a wellness center. Dollars in hand. A campus wellness center is a D-I requirement. Coincidence? I'd guess not.
NDSU already has a campus wellness center, if I am not mistaken. Does this not qualify as "upfront risk management" and "dollars in hand"?



UND has the plan to modify old REA into the new BB/VB facility. The same student vote allows some of the funds to go for that. There's the facilities plan. Add to that that the plan includes new athletic training facilities and there's a complete facilities plan.

Not sure what this has to do with NDSU, so I will take it that this is meant to show the superior organization of UND and that NDSU has no plan. Let's see: UND has a plan, but no definite funds (other than "some" of the funds from student activity fee authorization) for the old REA, and a plan but no "dollars in hand" whatsoever for the rest of their proposed facilities. Hmm, sounds like they don't meet your rational pragmatist requirements of "dollars in hand" to me. Not that it matters to me, though, as I think the "dollars in hand" argument is bogus. Why? Because NDSU is still evaluating what they are going to do with the BSA and the indoor track, etc. Here is a quote from the DI Decision report in the Forum:

And the Bison Sports Arena is undergoing plans for renovation.

A new indoor track is being proposed, whether it be at a new facility or the BSA. If NDSU wants Division I indoor competition, it will need eight lanes instead of its current six.

"It's been fun talking with the architects," Godfrey said. "We're taking steps in the right direction."

Sounds like some plans are being formed. Once again, how can you ask for money if you don't know the final cost or even if you are going to use the same building? What is preventing the Bison from starting DI with the BSA as is and improving it later? Nothing - this doesn't affect the time table for the transition at all. The BSA will be improved but it is not a requirement for entering DI.


Sorry I had to shorten some quotes to get this message to meet the length requirements. More to follow.
Craig

BisonInTexas
10-10-2002, 05:44 AM
Conference? UND appears to be taking the wait and see approach. What will SDSU do? That matters in terms of conference, travel, opponents, logistics, and costs.

Sound like a "get it done up front, then jump" approach to me. Sounds like managing risks up front to me.

If or when UND would jump, they'd have to worry only about raising operating revenue. All of the other pieces would be in place.


No, UND is still going to have to find a conference, just like NDSU. What makes you think that will be a given when the time comes? I take it you also assume that all facilities will be complete and funded before UND decides to move up. *That is not a given either.



Conference? OK, I'll give you that one. You won't get a conference unless you are committed, unless your name is California-Davis. They got effectively begged to move up by their neighbors. Or unless there is a conference that is forming up that would like you to join. That's what may happen if SDSU moves up.

I'm not saying the decision by NDSU to go to D-I is wrong. I'm saying the decision, without solid things in hand, is logistically mis-timed.


OK, so you admit that NDSU is managing the conference risk as well as possible, after holding that up as a reason in the earlier part of this article that they weren't managing that risk.

What "solid things in hand" and at which time (logistically speaking of course) should NDSU have them to move to DI?



The NCAA re-evaluates all of its divisions and requirements to be in the division in 2004. Do we know what'll come out of that? No. It's a long time until then. A lot can happen.

Yeah and a lot can not happen too. *The only given is that by 2004 DII will have accepted umpteen other schools with <2000 enrollment and athletic budgets 1/10 of UND's and NDSU's.



Remember, NDSU is using 2003-2004, not this season, as their provisional year. A school has to get its paperwork into the NCAA and the NCC by 09/01/03 to do that. That's still quite a while away. A lot can happen.

If you are hoping that NDSU will change its mind, you will be disappointed.


The key question for JBB and tony
And if this is the right decision for NDSU, why do you care what UND or The Herald thinks?

Not to speak for JBB *or tony, but the only reason we post comments on the Herald's/UND's articles is because Sioux fans post them on this board as proof that the Bison are making a mistake. *We could really care less about what they "think".

Craig

The_Sicatoka
10-10-2002, 02:12 PM
Wellness center? Good work by NDSU. Up front planning, but it's a D-I requirement too.

Basketball arena? I'd hate to have to be begging for operating dollars and arena financing dollars at the same time. That's a lot of money to be asking for.

Northern Colorado has most (if not all) of their scholarship currently endowed. They won't have to go on the road asking for even that money annually any more. Has NDSU put themselves in such a forward-looking position? I don't know. I hope so.

Sure, I already said I'm torn on the D-I issue.

The prime difference between you folks and me is that I'm not completely bought into whatever decision my alma mater makes.

I'm also a taxpayer in this State.

Now I'll leave you with one other revelation: I lecture at NDSU. By reading this you're hearing some of the rumblings of the non-athletic department faculty and staff.

I know you don't want to hear me any more. Fine. I'll leave.

Final thought before I go: Time will make some of us right and some of us wrong. Believe me or not, I hope NDSU makes my fears of future financial problems related to this move wrong.

tony
10-10-2002, 02:38 PM
I'm sure there are lots of taxpayers who wouldn't be happy to know you are at NDSU. Who wouldn't want an employee on the staff who constantly compares their employer's company unfavorably with the competition? If you were in the private sector, that and your lack of professionalism would have you looking for a new job before you could spell, "Hockey rules!"

You do not represent the rumblings of the faculty except those faculty, who like you, are UND grads who can't separate being a fan of UND from being an employees of NDSU. In other words, you only speak for yourself.

BisonInTexas
10-10-2002, 02:40 PM
Wellness center? Good work by NDSU. Up front planning, but it's a D-I requirement too.

Basketball arena? I'd hate to have to be begging for operating dollars and arena financing dollars at the same time. That's a lot of money to be asking for.

Northern Colorado has most (if not all) of their scholarship currently endowed. They won't have to go on the road asking for even that money annually any more. Has NDSU put themselves in such a forward-looking position? I don't know. I hope so.

Sure, I already said I'm torn on the D-I issue.

The prime difference between you folks and me is that I'm not completely bought into whatever decision my alma mater makes.

I'm also a taxpayer in this State.

Now I'll leave you with one other revelation: I lecture at NDSU. By reading this you're hearing some of the rumblings of the non-athletic department faculty and staff.

I know you don't want to hear me any more. Fine. I'll leave.

Final thought before I go: Time will make some of us right and some of us wrong. Believe me or not, I hope NDSU makes my fears of future financial problems related to this move wrong.

Sicatoka,

No one has asked you to leave (hell I asked you to sign up, remember? :) ). I enjoy the banter and debate, personally.

As far as UNC goes, they have huge facilities issues (have you ever seen the football stadium there? Have they built a new one that I am unaware of?). They still have to fund the increased scholarships as well.

And just because I support the DI decision doesn't mean I am some mindless drone that supports whatever NDSU decides, anymore than you are a mindless drone because you agree with UND staying put.

Craig

The_Sicatoka
10-10-2002, 05:27 PM
Texan: I enjoy the logical, normally dissenting, discourse with you as well. I think we'd both agree that if you don't have differing opinions you haven't thought something through. I'll stay and play nice because you originally asked.

tony: A University is supposed to be a place with open discussion of issues, from all points of view. It is not supposed to be of a monolithic opinion. It's called "diversity." Love it. NDSU promotes it. (By the way, I do work elsewhere in private business as well and a dissenting opinion is welcomed. It makes sure potential problems are addressed before they ever occur. A dissenting opinion normally works out for the greater good in the end.)

And it is supposed to be a University first, a professional sports minor league second. NDSU has some serious non-athletic facilities issues and other fiscal issues also. The two million dollars per year in additional funds raised to fund DI athletics would make the labs and facilities on campus beyond compare.

A greater NDSU is not just about athletics. Will you be working as hard to raise NDSU's standing academically as athletically by raising funds for academic facilities and scholarships?

tony
10-10-2002, 05:57 PM
The problem is this, Sicatoka- nothing you have written indicates that you have any desire to see NDSU become a better place. You are the passive-aggressive poster boy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, dissent is good, diversity is good. Man, where did you learn to become such a victim? Dissent from other faculty is understandable because they are motivated in most cases by a true concern for NDSU. You are not.

Sicatoka, what are you motivated by?

I can't wait for this answer as you, once again, pretend to yourself that the number #1 concern is for NDSU when it is evident to everybody but you that it's not.

The_Sicatoka
10-10-2002, 06:46 PM
What am I motivated by? Honestly?

My wallet. And let's be honest, when you get down to it, it's all about the Benjamins.

This is going to cost some serious money. Not only am I affected somewhat directly, but indirectly as a North Dakota taxpayer.

You can believe I'm passive-aggressive or any other amateur psychiatrist term that suits your fancy. That's fine. Keep on analyzing. You don't have to refute the points on merit that way.

You can believe I don't care about NDSU for that matter. To say I don't care about NDSU is saying I don't care about my students. You'd be dead wrong.

I could argue all day from the point of view that Division I is the right decision. Do you understand the counter-points well enough to argue that the move is somewhere between ill-timed to wrong?

Rise above the situation and look in from the outside. BOTH UND and NDSU have parts of this wrong. Yes, both.

NDSU should have done better at getting facilities in order before the operational cash flow needs expand by $2 million annually. Having the funding in place for a new BB facility would have been wise. You could also make a case that they should have harder pressed the NCC (with SDSU and UNC along side) to move up as a whole to relieve many of the costs associated with travel.

UND should have and should still better listen to NDSU's points regarding the degradation of Division II. Reading the press (and believing little) it seems that UND has dismissed many of NDSU's concerns in that area out of hand.

NDSU acted a little before all of their (fiscal and facilities) ducks were in a row. UND is staying too restrained and frankly they do sound a little negativist regard such a change at times.

However, both agree something needs to be done. One believes DII can be fixed. The other believes DI is the solution. Who's right? We'll find out.

Or who knows. The magic date I mentioned before is 09/01/03. I brought it up not because I thought NDSU'd back away but that maybe UND'd jump into the pool. Then EVERYONE would be asking me for more money. ;)

Texas: I believe most of UNC's scholarships are now endowed. And didn't they recently upgrade their football facilities? (Wasn't it late in the 1990s they made improvements?)

BisonInTexas
10-10-2002, 07:28 PM
Texas: I believe most of UNC's scholarships are now endowed. And didn't they recently upgrade their football facilities? (Wasn't it late in the 1990s they made improvements?)

They did build a new facility since I have been there in '88. However, they weren't exactly forward-looking and still have some work to do:

Nottingham Field Facts
Cost to build: $4.0 million
Completed: Spring, 1995
Capacity: 6,500
Surface: Natural Grass
First Game: Sept. 9, 1995 (Att. - 6,341)
Overall Record at Nottingham: 39-5 (.886)
Record vs. NCC Schools at Nottingham: 30-3 (.909)
Playoff Record at Nottingham: 3-1 (.750)
Longest Winning Streak: 16 games (10/18/98 to 11/20/99)
Average Attendance: 5,005 (220,208 in 44 games)
Largest Attendance: 7,520 (Oct. 23, 1999)

They aren't exactly going to rake in the bucks with a seating capacity of 6500. It is a good thing they have the scholarships paid for! I would say NDSU is better prepared for the transition than UNC is.

Craig

tony
10-10-2002, 11:53 PM
It's all about the money, is it? In your worst case scenario, how much do you think this move could end up costing you? If NDSU's athletic department ran a $2 million deficit and the state picked up the tab, would that cost you more than $10/year? All this effort wasting time posting about this issue here, there, and everywhere, for an imaginary $10 a year! Fascinating. *

Moreover, to think that a $2 million deficit is likely, you have to believe two things; one, the marketing survey is flawed; two, the state would pick up the deficit rather than tell NDSU to cut expenses. You've offered nothing to support the first point and are totally divorced from reality if you think there is a chance in hell the second thing will occur.

The reason I'm not treating you with respect is that I don't like *people who are not direct and honest with me.

siouxrock
10-11-2002, 12:52 AM
Still nobody has give me ONE sport that ndsu is better at then the sioux wiht 5,000 fans a game?
how come?
THATS RITE, THIER ANIT NO SOPORTS TEH NDSU IS BETTER AT THEN THE SIOUX WITH 5,000 FANS

The_Sicatoka
10-11-2002, 02:03 PM
tony:

A US Senator was once quoted as saying, "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money."

In a State with a population of about 600,000, in a State that has already had to cut the budget by 1% this fiscal year, and in a State that has had to take $25,000,000.00 from Bank of ND operating profits to cover deficits (instead of cutting an additional 2.5% from budgets) this year, yes, $2,000,000.00 dollars is a big deal. Especially when it's not $2,000,000.00 as a one time shot, but as a potential annual shortfall for up to a decade. And that's just the annual operating revenue side of the conversation.

One the long-term facilities construction side of the issue, the up-front risk management of the cost side of the equation should have been better dealt with because that'll be a big player, like $40,000,000.00.

tony
10-11-2002, 03:59 PM
Still avoiding the central points, I see.

You have no proof except wishful thinking that NDSU will run a significant deficit so back it up!

You seem to think that the state legislature will cover an operating deficit in NDSU's athletic department, well, back it up!

You seem to think NDSU is planning on asking the state for new and improved athletic facilities because they are moving to DI, back it up!

I breathlessly await your answer.

Hey, Jamestown College is going DII, if not this year, then soon. Can the rest of the DAC be far behind?

The_Sicatoka
10-11-2002, 07:24 PM
You have no proof except wishful thinking that NDSU will run a significant deficit so back it up!

The Carr Report listed fundraising and facilities as significant issues to overcome.

I'm sure the efforts on the fundraising have begun, but those issues still exist.

The U of Montana, the best comparison case, ended last year in the red and that was after a IAA FB title and an NCAA BB tournament appearance.

Northern Iowa had to cut programs to try to drain some red ink.

I can't show NDSU will be in the red until it happens, but then it's too late. NDSU doesn't have red ink today, but the best comparsions point directly to it.


You seem to think that the state legislature will cover an operating deficit in NDSU's athletic department, well, back it up!

NDSU is "owned" by the ND University System and the ND State Board of Higher Ed. All of that is "owned" by the State of ND. All debt incurred by any of those entities is guaranteed by the good faith and trust of the State of ND. That is undeniable. The State has ultimate responsibility to all debts incurred by its entities.

I pray it never gets that far. That could be ugly.


You seem to think NDSU is planning on asking the state for new and improved athletic facilities because they are moving to DI, back it up!

And NDSU won't ask the State for a building. They'll ask Fargo. NDSU has already asked FargoDome to evaluate putting up an 8000 to 9000 seat arena.


I breathlessly await your answer.

Breathe. ;)

The_Sicatoka
10-11-2002, 07:38 PM
Hey, Jamestown College is going DII, if not this year, then soon. Can the rest of the DAC be far behind?

JC? I had figured Dickinson State would be the first to make that move.

But the fundamental question is this:

Does moving to Division II make Jamestown College a comparable institution to North Dakota State University?

If your view of a University is strictly 120 yards long by 53.3 yards wide: Yes.

If your view of a University is of a total package of academics, research, and programs associated with the University (like athletics): Not a chance.

I read somewhere that MIT is a D-III. It must be a really crummy school.

tony
10-11-2002, 10:17 PM
Yes, the Carr Report says that NDSU would have to raise more money so NDSU asked the business community and boosters how much more they'd be willing to spend to take the Bison to DII. The marketing firm found out that the boosters and business community would come up with all the money necessary. What hasn't NDSU done that they should have?

In your understanding, NDSU's athletic department is free to incur debt whenever they want and refer to the bill to the legislature for payment without the legislature or Board of Higher Ed being able to do anything about it. HAHAHAHAHAHA! Tell me another one.

In your understanding, NDSU can also force Fargo to build an arena just because they've gone DI. What a strange and fascinating world you live in! Do they have flying pigs there too?

You are acting like NDSU is crossing some athletic Rubicon by going to DI from DII and that the perils that await them might drag down the whole state and, in the end cost you a tiny amount of money. The flaw in this analogy is that NDSU can cross back to DII if they want, not to mentioin that the legislature or Board of Higher Ed could even force them to.

It just seems to me that you are getting overly panicked about something that carries very little risk, if any.

If you're worried about money, start your campaign to rid universities of athletics altogether - only start with UND because all your arguments against NDSU going DI could be used against having any athletic program at all.

The_Sicatoka
10-11-2002, 10:30 PM
That darn Argus-Leader has joined the Evil Empire led by The Herald. ;)

http://www.argusleader.com/editorial/Sundayfeature.shtml

Moral of the story: Money.

I live in a world of fiscal realities.

siouxrock
10-12-2002, 03:33 PM
how come nobody hasnt named a sport that the bison are better at then the sioux with 5,000 fans watching.HAHAHHHAHHAHAHAHa

NDSU_grad
10-14-2002, 03:44 PM
Sicatoka,
You say you teach at NDSU. Are you by any chance an economist. It's none of my business and you don't have to answer me if you don't want to, but I was just curious.

dnk
10-15-2002, 05:25 PM
Anything new on Dale Lennon. Is he still considering
joining Terry Wanless at Sacremento State?

tony
10-15-2002, 07:24 PM
I was never aware that Coach Lennon was thinking of going to Sacramento State. He hasn't made a visit out there or anything. It seems like just another rumor to me.

The_Sicatoka
10-15-2002, 10:24 PM
I'd heard that rumor too. I find it not too credible, but hey, anything is possible.

Lennon is from Knox, ND and a former Sioux RB.
Was D Coord under Thomas when Wanless was AD.
He left to head coach at Mary in Bismarck.
Wanless leaves, Thomas moves up, Lennon fills the open head job.

That tells me Lennon's primary allegience is probably to Thomas, if not UND.

JBB
10-15-2002, 10:59 PM
I found the Argus article arbitrary and a little offensive. Arbitrary in the sense that the article is trying to make the reasons USD decided not to move universal for D2 at large and especially SDSU. The negative reference to the SDSU as an ag school exposed the article for what it was, an attempt to garner public opinion against the SDSU move. Motivation is the same as the herald.

The_Sicatoka
10-15-2002, 11:19 PM
The Argus-Leader only leaves articles up for a week. That link is now "bad."

If you choose to lock onto The Argus' poor form of calling one an "ag school" you can safely ignore the rest of what it is saying.

And it wasn't purported to be an "article" but an "editorial," the opinion of the Argus-Leader. They then gave the reasons for their opinion.

It raised the point that higher ed in SD is already underfunded terribly. (Same for ND.)

The State of SD is already funding six schools (Ten in ND? More?).

SD only has about 870,000 residents to pay the bills. (ND only has 640,000.)

They believe all that points to is more higher ed funding problems in SD.

That's the basis for their position.

BisonInTexas
10-16-2002, 12:59 PM
I don't disagree with USD's decision to stay DII. With a small athletic budget alread ($3M, so they would need to at least double it) and being based in a town of 10000, the market just won't support them. As for SDSU, I am not well versed on the main issues that they must address in the move to DI.

The Argus Leader can state their opinion, but the basis for that opinion does not apply to NDSU. Can you show me anywhere in the Carr Report where NDSU is going to the state of ND for more money to fund the move to DI? This is based on the assumption that NDSU will not be able to raise any money to increase their budget and it is a certainty that they will run a deficit. I have seen no facts that back up this assumption for NDSU.

Craig

tony
10-16-2002, 01:22 PM
Ah, you've spotted the main flaw in the "it's about he money" argument. NDSU isn't going to the state for money, they're going to outside sponsors. The only way the state pays any meaningful money is under pretty unlikely scenarios.

Until now, I've left UND out of it but they make a good case in point. If it was "all about the money", then UND should have gone DIII during all those many years they were hiding their athletic budget deficits by moving money from other budget items to cover it. Now their longterm viability depends so much on one guy who has shown before that if he gets annoyed he'll yank away everything. That's one reason you'll never see a Carr Report for UND.

The_Sicatoka
10-16-2002, 06:17 PM
The CSL Report (Minneapolis firm) did a market report for NDSU. They also did one for SDSU.

This is from the CSL Report done for SDSU:


* The effective buying income of SDSU's primary market ranks among the lowest of Division I markets analyzed. *When including both the primary and secondary markets (within 75 miles), SDSU's EBI ranks in the mid-to-low range of Division I schools presented in this analysis.

Brookings is 50 miles from Sioux Falls so that's included in that ranking.

Sioux Falls is larger than Fargo by close to 50%. Their metro area (two counties) is 181,000.

South Dakota has no income tax which means more disposable, or buying, income.

Yet, CSL thinks SDSU is in a mid to low range DI location.

Sure NDSU isn't going to the State. But how could Fargo and NDSU be that much better off than SDSU with Sioux Falls in their "market area"?

Did NDSU ever put out their CLS report? Could be some interesting reading.

And 'tony,' this is about NDSU and their decision. Why bring up UND? Is it that arena? Remember, like so many like to say about FargoDome it's on the University's *land. ;)

BisonInTexas
10-16-2002, 06:37 PM
Did NDSU ever put out their CLS report? Could be some interesting reading.


Here it is:

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/news/division_I/NDSU_Division_I_MarketRes.pdf

Here is a quote relating to NDSU:



With respect to the primary market (within 25 miles), NDSU's EBI ranks in the mid-to-upper range of Division I markets analyzed in this report. When including both the primary and secondary markets (within 75 miles), NDSU's EBI ranks in the mid-to-low range among the Division I schools presented in this analysis.


The difference between NDSU and SDSU is that NDSU has a larger primary market. *Sioux Falls is a secondary market for SDSU.

Craig

Guest
10-16-2002, 07:33 PM
This is getting off the topic a little bit, but according to the U.S. census bureau, the population of Sioux Falls is about 123,000, while the population of Fargo is about 90,000 (a difference of about 36%). The Fargo metropolitan statistical area (MSA) is about 174,000 while that for Sioux Falls is about 172,000. Of course the largest difference, as was pointed out by BisonInTexas, is that the Fargo MSA is a primary market for NDSU. Here's the link to the census bureau's page showing selected statistics for the Fargo and Sioux Falls MSA's. I don't know exactly what the census bureau defines as an MSA, so it can be left to interpretation. http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_ts=52838563750

The_Sicatoka
10-16-2002, 08:00 PM
I knew the 90,000 for Fargo. I used http://www.siouxfalls.com/facts.cfm#population to find 131,000. That's about 41,000 different and 41 is close enough to half of 90 that I said about 50%. Fair?

Texas: Thanks. SDSU gets hurt badly by being in Brookings and not Sioux Falls I see. That's fair and logical.

The_Sicatoka
10-16-2002, 08:29 PM
Texas: Great link.

I found this ditty in the link interesting:


Carr Sports Associates Inc. concluded that the Division I transition process should begin after NDSU has achieved the following:

• Established that reclassification is consistent with the University’s mission, priorities and resources;

• Conducted a formal study to quantify the market potential for a Division I intercollegiate athletics program;

• Implemented a strategic plan for reclassification; and,

• Secured an acceptable conference membership before making the decision to reclassify.

Mission? I'll buy it. Check.
Market potential survey? CSL. Check.
Strategic plan? You mean like having plans for or the actual facilities in place? No comment.

But the best:
"Secured an acceptable conference membership before making the decision to reclassify."
Jumped the gun a wee bit there. ;)

tony
10-16-2002, 08:51 PM
I already knew that in Sicatoka's world there are as many pigs flying around as sparrows, but I'm even more shocked to find that West Fargo and Moorhead don't exist there.

JBB
10-16-2002, 08:53 PM
SDSU remains a viable candidate for D1. They are on the edge of the Sioux Falls MSA. Being in the low to midrange of that stat is not a terminal problem. You have to remember this is a comparison to markets on a national basis. This includes all the major mega markets areas on both coasts, Florida, Texas, the Minneapolis/St. Paul area etc, etc, etc.

The main question is how much money can they expect to raise in their primary and secondary market areas. NDSU had determined they can raise 100% of the money needed. I have heard that SDSU has received similar results from their market study. Thats all that counts. What we are hearing is more of the same.

Sicatoka's (read und constituents) entire conversation is based on the fundamental principal that he does not wish NDSU well. No matter what the facts there will never be a positive counter point from Sicatoka. Your main point on this issue is this: moving to D1 is bad. After that the only interpretation for any information is negative.

You cant related the SDSU market study to NDSU. You cant relate the decisions made by USD to SDSU or NDSU. You cant relate the decision made by und to NDSU or SDSU. SDSU is evaluating their decision based on the facts surrounding their situation. Trying to overlay a set of universally negative reasons why they cant move, and why NDSU shouldn't is nonsense. You'll never agree to anything that may benefit NDSU and you'll never wish NDSU well.

BisonInTexas
10-16-2002, 09:06 PM
Texas: Great link.

I found this ditty in the link interesting:


Mission? I'll buy it. Check.
Market potential survey? CSL. Check.
Strategic plan? You mean like having plans for or the actual facilities in place? No comment.

But the best:
"Secured an acceptable conference membership before making the decision to reclassify."
Jumped the gun a wee bit there. ;)


We have covered this ground before (earlier in this thread, in fact). Do these words sound familiar to you?

"Conference? OK, I'll give you that one. You won't get a conference unless you are committed, unless your name is California-Davis. They got effectively begged to move up by their neighbors. Or unless there is a conference that is forming up that would like you to join. "

You have already conceded that NDSU had to announce their intentions before finding a conference. What is your point here?

Craig

The_Sicatoka
10-16-2002, 10:12 PM
Moorhead? West Fargo? Nobody from Fargo acknowledges their contributions, why should I? ;)

Metro for metro SF and F/M are close to a population wash. NDSU has a great advantage being in the middle, and not the edge, of its metro area compared to SDSU.

Texas: All that proves is that I would have jumped the gun in Carr's eyes too. Or as Alan Greenspan would say "irrational exuberance!" :D

Remember: "strategic plan." Facilities? No comment. ;)

Start raising all that money and prove me a nay-sayer.

BisonInTexas
10-16-2002, 10:59 PM
Texas: All that proves is that I would have jumped the gun in Carr's eyes too. Or as Alan Greenspan would say "irrational exuberance!" :D

Remember: "strategic plan." Facilities? No comment. ;)

Start raising all that money and prove me a nay-sayer.

The only thing irrational is Carr's assumption that a conference will accept a school before it announces its intention to move to DI.

Also, you have no factual basis to assume that a strategic plan does not exist, nor do you in fact know what plans for the BSA already exist. None of the facilities that NDSU has today prevents it from moving to DI. This too has been covered earlier in this thread.

Take a walk over to Erv Inniger's office some day and ask him how the fundraising is going.

Craig

The_Sicatoka
10-16-2002, 11:43 PM
The only thing irrational is Carr's assumption that a conference will accept a school before it announces its intention to move to DI.

(cough) UC-Davis (cough, cough) ;)

Irv's on the money side of it already? Great! Don't forget to sign that check and use proper postage. :D

Wouldn't they roll a "strategic (facilies) plan" out with the other reports? They did for the market survey recomendation. Why not for that?

Bisonguy
10-17-2002, 12:36 AM
Sicatoka,

What do these "facility plans" need to be that you keep speaking of?

Here's a rundown of the Bison facilities:
football-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/fargodome.shtml)-mine is bigger than yours ;D
volleyball-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/bentson.shtml)-it's old, but it works
soccer-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/soccer.shtml)-looks fine to me
basketball,wrestling,indoor track-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/sports_arena.shtml)-definitely needs improvement, but the BSA is getting a major overhaul.
baseball-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/newman.shtml)most D1 schools could only dream of a nicer field.
outdoor track-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/schlanser.shtml)lookin' good
softball-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/softball.shtml)looks fine to me
wrestling training-LINK (http://www.gobison.com/facilities/mccormick.shtml)-3 NC's in the last 5 years, it must work.

Everyone will admit that the BSA needs work, but plans are in the works. What other facilities are inadequant?

btw- the NDSU Wellness Center is much nicer than the one at UND. ;)

BisonInTexas
10-17-2002, 03:09 AM
(cough) UC-Davis (cough, cough) ;)

Irv's on the money side of it already? Great! Don't forget to sign that check and use proper postage. :D

Wouldn't they roll a "strategic (facilies) plan" out with the other reports? They did for the market survey recomendation. Why not for that?


I'll just refer you back to your own post on why Cal-Davis is an exception.

It's Erv, with an "E", and the check is in the mail. You make sure you attend all of those great battles with Minnesota-Crookston and Moorhead starting in 2004. ;)

What would you like to see in a "Strategic Facilities" plan? Remember that although NDSU has declared their intentions to go DI, next year is their exploratory year, not this year. Perhaps the "Strategic Facilities" plan will be published by then. Then they will have met the intentions of the Carr Report.

Craig

The_Sicatoka
10-17-2002, 01:43 PM
Believe it or not, you guys (correction, BisonInTexas and bisonguy, the ad hominem attack guys are doing nothing) are slowly, slowly convincing me that maybe this isn't such an outlandish idea.

I'm concerned when I see a minimum 20% increase necessary in ticket revenue pressed against the fact that FB attendance dropped at two of three other case study schools (see the CSL report, especially the last three pages). I only mention that because FargoDome did announce a sell-out but did have empty seats on Saturday. (It was mentioned on TV and WDAY radio.)

Changing gears to "facilities plan." BSA is an issue. A blueprint and a funding plan and that'd be enough. Up to this point it's all been words. (Please don't say "FargoArena.")

Shifting again, are you guys sure you're ready to accept that a National Championship in anything is a fantasy for at least a decade if not more? No wrestling. No softball. Nothing. That's going to be tough. Will making a one-and-out in a national tourney be enough? That's all that'll be there until probably the 20-teens.

And remember, NDSU took a patient approach to this. They are using 2003-2004 as their exploratory year. Why that approach? Are they waiting for SDSU? The CSL report money/sociological points didn't look good there at all.

If Brookings is mid to low, and Fargo is mid to above, is it a safe assumption that GF would be pretty much "mid" and it's 75-radius mid-to-low?

As a complete aside:

I've been looking into SE Mo. St. (recent DI(AA)) and the Cape Girardeaux (sp), MO. area. The city is smaller that Grand Forks. The area population is comparable. The household income is better in GF. And Dr. Kupchella was at SEMO during its transition. He's seen the problems first-hand so he knows the potential problems. They had a tough fiscal transition and maybe that's why he's not so hot on the idea.

Just thinking out loud now, but, UND has the lure of hockey. A lot of eastern IAAs play hockey (Maine, UNH, UMass, etc.). If (big if) UND were to move, would "linking" hockey and other athletics help with schedule? Schedule seems to be an issue with anyone's transition and that's why I ask.

bisonguy:

"I"nn"i"ger just gets the "I"s flowing so it probably spills over. ;)

Yeah, the wellness center at NDSU looks nice. Who knows how the renovated Hyslop will turn out. I've only seen the preliminary plans. They do have a classic, stately building to put it in. A renovated old Engelstad should serve nicely for BB/VB.

But as nice as NDSU's wellness center may be, I wouldn't trade it for the newest athletic facility on the UND campus. You can play hoops and some other sport in it I guess. ;)

NDSU_grad
10-17-2002, 03:09 PM
I knew the 90,000 for Fargo. I used http://www.siouxfalls.com/facts.cfm#population to find 131,000. That's about 41,000 different and 41 is close enough to half of 90 that I said about 50%. Fair?

I wasn't calling you out or anything, just wanted to clarify some things for myself.

JBB
10-17-2002, 04:14 PM
41,000 is only close enough to half of 90,000 for this nit wit. If anybody else had used that casual calculation he would be all over it :o

why is it so improtant for this nit wit to try and discredit Decision 1? It needs no defense. ;D

I have heard Sid Hartman talking about leaving all the pretenders in the WCHA behind and starting a true Big 10 hockey league. The conversion of Ohio States club team to full varsity is adding fuel to this movement. The Big 10 does not want to see their schools split confrences in any sport. As more Big 10 schools take up the sport this movement will gain momemtum. ::)

One of the big changes in this 2004 reorganization that is so speculated about will probably be the removal of the D1 hockey/D3 or D2 all other sports loophole. Schools will be given a transition time period to make the full conversion or will be required to play at their own level. Welcome to D2 hockey. ;)

tony
10-17-2002, 05:25 PM
I removed two earlier posts because I didn't read all of Sicatoka's latest effort before writing them.

Ad hominem attacks might not be helping you see the light but it has never been my goal to make you agree that going DI is a good idea, just that NDSU should be allowed to do so without having to fight a rearguard public relations battle with UND people like you.

Correction: you say you are concerned about the 20% increase in revenue the marketing report says is needed. Maybe you are truly concerned, but I doubt it. Fact is that NDSU will be raising ticket prices to cover most of that so any attendance boost is a bonus. You say that you only mention it because NDSU announced a sell out and there were empty seats. Did you ever consider that tickets can be sold and then the people who bought them might not show up? No you didn't, because you brain stops working as soon as you find an angle that puts NDSU in a bad light.

Face reality - you are not against NDSU moving to DI because of money, facilities, Fargo's population, the conference question, or the long provisional status. You are against NDSU going DI simply because NDSU is doing it.

Why did NDSU wait to make 2003-04 it's exploratory year? They gave a whole bunch of reasons at the time. but you must have missed them. True, they were giving other NCC members a year to decide whether to move up or not but NDSU's move to DI never hinged on other NCC schools moving up. In the exploratory year, a school is supposed to schedule DI schools and NDSU wouldn't have had time to get any on the schedule. NDSU wanted another year to look at facilities planning too. NDSU also didn't have a conference lined up and the extra year gives them that much more of a chance. Are those enough reasons for you? Or are you going to insist, in your typical fashion, that it's all a front covering something else?

I really apprecitated the bit where you try to hedge your bets in case UND goes DI - a move I expect that you would support just as blindly as you oppose NDSU's.

You know, my grandpa said that you can tell how others think by the motives and methods they ascribe to others. He was just a farmer though.

JBB
10-17-2002, 07:16 PM
Tony,
*
Your Grandpa was a smart man. *he gave you something that I learned the hard way. *Let me expand on why NDSU named next year its provisional.
*
NDSU Administration said they were waiting an extra year to give the conference a chance to reorganize and give coaches and athletes a chance to decide if they wanted to stay.
*
At the press conference the NDSU Administration was very optimistic about the reception were getting from the D1/D1AA Athletic Directors and Presidents. *I have no doubt that NDSU will gain conference affiliation. *In fact I believe NDSU is going to have its choice.
*
Many have said it would get dark before the dawn. *Its too bad it got so dark so soon. *Is there any possibility that NDSU is tolerating the football situation in an effort to control costs using the money to build the basketball program?
*
Basketball is a cheaper sport to run and it has many more home games. *Its a much better revenue raiser than Football. *Maybe NDSU is going to start concentrating on building a Basketball Dynasty?

Bisonguy
10-18-2002, 03:18 AM
Sicatoka,


Here's a little info on the speculation of the Grand Forks market(population-wise) for D1.

The Fargo Metro Area, defined as Cass and Clay counties has a population of 174,000.

The Grand Forks Metro Area, following the same criteria using Grand Forks and Polk counties, has a population of 94,000. I have seen the number 115,000 for the Grand Forks Metro Area, but have never seen the criteria used for that "number". This also uses Polk county, which has a substantially larger area (nearly twice the size) of Clay county.

Now, what does this mean? NDSU has nearly twice the local population to draw from. The 75 mile radius does not include the fact that the farther someone is away, the less likely they will be to show up to games. I know many Bison season ticket holders that are actually UND alums, but don't enjoy driving two and a half hours round trip for a football game. ;D

Guest
10-18-2002, 02:33 PM
Don't forget that the Fargo and Sioux Falls metro areas are projected to grow significantly over the next twenty years.

The_Sicatoka
10-18-2002, 03:09 PM
tony: With an announced 19042 but empty seats, yes, they were sold and some didn't come. Will the no-shows even buy them the next time? Surveys say they will. Now it's just follow through.

Big Ten Hockey? You believe Sid? He's been yapping that up for decades. If it happens it happens. But don't hold your breath waiting for it or the return of recently folded by the NCAA DII hockey. The biggest annual gates at Minnesota and Wisconsin for hockey are when North Dakota comes to town. It's kind of the same thing as for NDSU FB: UND causes the biggest gates. You can go look it up.

tony: Turn off the emotions for a minute. Rise above. Think of your grandfather's words pressed against your methods of belittling anyone who disagrees with the decision and with your belief UND is out to "get" NDSU. " ... you can tell how others think by the motives and methods they ascribe to others." Paranoia can destroy ya. ;) *

I've said there's a middle ground here somewhere. I've moved in toward it.

PS - I said "41k is about half of 90k." 41k out of 90k is 45.55%. That's "about 50%," isn't it? When you use words like "about" and are close, what's to jump on. You too would do well to review "grandfather's wisdom."

tony
10-18-2002, 05:23 PM
Hey, I never said anything about hockey or Sid. You have me mixed up with JBB.

The fact is that they sold 19000+ tickets and there were plenty of people willing to fill those empty seats even with the team doing as poorly as it is. True, the empty seats are a concern and it could well be that some people may not buy season tickets next year unless NDSU starts showing some life. Are you happy?

Besides, I don't battle with everybody on the DI issue, just you. You are incapable of telling truth from fiction when it comes to your UND v NDSU world.

I didn't even support the move to DI until I was sure that there was broad enough support to give the program a stable base. As much as I continue to worry about NDSU's move to DI, there is no way that I'll ever lend any credence to your unending string of specious arguments, snide remarks about NDSU, and unfavorable comparisons of NDSU to UND. You don't have any credibility with me about anything.

When you wrote that your main objection to NDSU moving to DI was that ND taxpayers might have to foot the bill, I considered that a lie. I'll ask again, what is your main motivation in opposing NDSU's move to DI? As a bonus, answer this: what do you hope to accomplish by being so negative about the move? And for gosh sakes, try to answer like a man this time.

The_Sicatoka
10-18-2002, 09:16 PM
What do I hope to accomplish?

I'd like to make sure that all the potential problems are out and in the open so they can be dealt with while they are still potential problems.

If I can set them out there and you can knock them away with plans and figures: Excellent.

About ultimate (ultimate, not that it will happen, but they ultimately hold the bag) responsibility: "The North Dakota State Board of Higher Education, established in 1939 by the voters of North Dakota, is the governing body for the state’s 11 publicly-funded institutions which comprise the North Dakota University System."

That's from: http://www.ndus.nodak.edu/sbhe/default.asp

Will the taxpayers get a bill for this? CSL and NDSU says it won't happen.

Could (could, not will) they? Remotely possible, but highly not probable. Yet, it remains in the realm of the possible.

Thus, we must put it out there with other potential problems: Has it been thought of? Yes. Has it been dealt with? Apparently so (CSL report), but you don't know until you ask the question.

And yes, the hockey comment should have been prefaced with a "JBB."

JBB
10-19-2002, 01:46 AM
If it comes to it the taxpayers of the Great State of NORTH DAKOTA will be happy to support the Premier Institution of higher learning in North Dakota, North Dakota Sate University. Thats why only one of us should go, and obviously its NDSU.

Guest
10-19-2002, 05:25 AM
sicatoka-
for hockey scsu and wisconsin are the best draws at minnesota. the minnesota und rivalry in only in the head of und fans. we hate scsu and uw!

The_Sicatoka
10-21-2002, 02:01 PM
SCSU is a big rivalry? Lately maybe. But a rivalry is more than the last five to ten years. Look back at who played in the 1979 National Championship game (and then who won in 1980). That's where rivalries come from.

The numbers tell the tale. Minnesota's home games last season versus Wisconsin, St. Cloud, and North Dakota.

SCSU 10248
SCSU 10231
UW 10228
UND 10216
UND 10214
UND 10203
UW 10192
UND 10183

Stats from USCHO.com

Show me a significant difference there. (PS - UND is at least 45 miles further from Mariucci than the other two, yet sells as well. And that was in a down year for UND hockey.)

Ohio State and Penn State (the most likely to add) would get them gates like SCSU and UND?

JBB: You're "only one should go" comment smacks of what your complaint against UND is. One shouldn't be telling the other what to do or working against it, right?

Guest
10-22-2002, 12:26 AM
as I said, the largest gates at the u are scsu and um. I assume that you live in nd because down here the scsu and um rivalry is fierce. (as you will hear on KFAN) und is a traditional rival but because of our proximity to st cloud ant the fact that many scsu alums live and work down here. the rivalry is more bitter. I think the largest gate in minnesota hockey history was the um scsu game in the playoffs last year.

The_Sicatoka
11-06-2002, 11:17 PM
Dear "gopherfan,"

Don't believe me. Believe the posters at US College Hockey Online. (Be sure to check out the poll results.)

Thread: Toughest Rivalry in the WCHA
http://www.uscollegehockey.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17309

Key posts to read are by "Hammy." He's as pro-Gopher puck as JBB is pro-Bison FB.

Heck, Hammy may know as much about Gopher hockey as I do about Sioux hockey. *;) *;D

PS - That board is "backwards" compared to this one. The oldest posts are toward the bottom of the highest numbered pages.

Guest
11-20-2002, 05:56 PM
I don't mean to be rude, but everyone seems to be forgetting one thing. . .in NDSU the U stands for 'University' not 'Sports'. How many of you are current students or faculty? There are many academic problems the school needs to address before looking at issues with the athletic program.

Parts of the art and the architecture programs need to move to down town Fargo, away from many of their regular classes, because there are inadequate facilities on campus for them. Right now the entire art department and half of the architecture department use old metal quonsets. The library needs to be replaced because of space, insurance, and future flooding problems. Freshman live in hotels off campus because there isn't room in the dorms, and Chapman still wants to increase enrollment. Last I heard the business school can't be accredited until they have their own building. Parking is also a big issue for students.

I think sporting facilities are the least of our worries.

NDSU does have plans for new dorm and classroom buildings.

Sicatoka tried to bring up some academic concerns a while ago, but no one seemed to care.

It is possible that the move will help the school in academic aspects. It's also possible that all the money needed for sports will take away from the educational funds.

The move to D1 will be a good challenge for the school. I think NDSU can do it. I just don't think they have done enough to take care of issues throughout the entire university, not just athletics.

JBB
11-22-2002, 01:43 AM
The move to the downtown campus for the College of Archetecture is certainly not a negative. It will be a very great reality next year.

The Business college recently announced plans for a new building. Something that has been needed for many years. the first hurdle was overcoming the UND claim that the NDSU Business college should be discredited and moved to Grand forks. Once that issue was settled, and the money was wasted fighting it, new building plans were announced.

New dormitories are under construction now on the NDSU campus. Just go out to the West you will see them.

The D1 sports move will be made with money not available to the acedemic side. It will come from funds raised for that specific purposse. NDSU is growing on all fronts.

tjbison
09-03-2019, 02:35 PM
SO we didn't have to play UND anymore......SHIT!!!!!

tony
09-03-2019, 02:56 PM
Wow, this thread reminds how much I don't like folks who are too cowardly to state their own arguments (because then they'd have to stand behind them.) So, instead, they "just ask questions" or regurgitate arguments made by others in order to maintain deniability.

And here I thought I was testy nowadays.

El_Chapo
09-03-2019, 03:08 PM
shouldve made the jump straight to FBS then when we had an ADMIN with Brass Balls and not BB's

CyPanth
09-06-2019, 01:28 AM
shouldve made the jump straight to FBS then when we had an ADMIN with Brass Balls and not BB's

Finally. This thread just wasn't the same without Lakes.

CyPanth
09-06-2019, 01:35 AM
Let me throw out a thought that I got from Chris Williams on a CycloneFanatic podcast in the midst of Big 12 expansion talks a few years ago. He said the team to add would be . . . wait for it . . .












BYU!

In the future, he said it won't be butts in the stadium or eyeballs watching broadcast TV that makes a team attractive, but a global fanbase that is willing to pay subscription to see their team.

I put NDSU in this category too. Welcome to the Big 12 ... eventually.

Christopher Moen
09-06-2019, 02:26 AM
Let me throw out a thought that I got from Chris Williams on a CycloneFanatic podcast in the midst of Big 12 expansion talks a few years ago. He said the team to add would be . . . wait for it . . .












BYU!

In the future, he said it won't be butts in the stadium or eyeballs watching broadcast TV that makes a team attractive, but a global fanbase that is willing to pay subscription to see their team.

I put NDSU in this category too. Welcome to the Big 12 ... eventually.

But we’re already in the Big 12.......in wrestling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

23Bison
09-06-2019, 03:11 AM
Let me throw out a thought that I got from Chris Williams on a CycloneFanatic podcast in the midst of Big 12 expansion talks a few years ago. He said the team to add would be










BYU!

In the future, he said it won't be butts in the stadium or eyeballs watching broadcast TV that makes a team attractive, but a global fanbase that is willing to pay subscription to see their team.

I put NDSU in this category too. Welcome to the Big 12 ... eventually.

Finally someone welcomes us to the Big 12. I will personally say thank you.

CAS4127
09-07-2019, 02:34 AM
Because we would be curb-stomping both Marshall and Boise tonight. Yes—we would!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

El_Chapo
09-07-2019, 03:35 AM
Because we would be curb-stomping both Marshall and Boise tonight. Yes—we would!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

agree w cas here. ndsu would dominate mwc or mac or aac