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View Full Version : Say hello to NDSU's DI travel partner...



tony
12-12-2002, 08:47 PM
SDSU and NDSU as a package are going to look a lot more attractive to the Big Sky than NDSU on its own.

BisonInTexas
12-12-2002, 09:26 PM
Do you have any links you can point us to? I looked on the Forum but there is nothing there. I assume you mean that the Board of Regents approved the move.

This is great news for both schools.

Craig

tony
12-12-2002, 09:55 PM
One link (http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail9.cfm?Id=22,21399)

Small blurb (http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail9.cfm?Id=22,21399)

KOTA TV (http://www.kotatv.com/localnews/story.asp?ID=13160)

The_Sicatoka
12-13-2002, 12:21 AM
"We do not believe that such a move would currently be in the best interests of our students or the people of North Dakota. If ... very many NCC schools make the move to D-I; then we could well give it some extra consideration." -- Dr. Charles Kupchella, February 2002

UNC, NDSU, SDSU.

Dale Lennon pulls his name out of the CSU-Sacramento hat today also. (Info at FightingSioux.com)

Call me suspicious, but I'm thinking the statement in bold may be invoked at some point in the not so distant future.

Bisonguy
12-13-2002, 03:18 AM
"If blah blah blah, and blah blah blah, or blah blah blah, possibly blah blah blah, a remote possibility blah blah blah, maybe blah blah blah, might blah blah blah, may blah blah blah, I don't know blah blah blah, but blah blah blah, and if very many NCC schools make the move to D-I; then we could well give it some extra consideration." -- Dr. Charles Kupchella, February 2002


That's a lot of blah's!

JBB
12-13-2002, 04:15 AM
All right! A possible way to wiggle out of the decision to join the wasteland of DIAA football and go broke with Minnesota and all the rest, not to mention the crime problems in all DI sports but hockey. But what about all the negative talk from the sue sox nay sayers? Does that statement by your pres. really take care of all the other problems so ably recited over and over and over again?

Guest
12-13-2002, 04:38 AM
This is great news for both NDSU and SDSU. I welcome the sue to join us as well. But before we extend a hand to the people up north, I hope NDSU and SDSU will form some sort of partnership between the two schools and present themselves as a duo while talking to new conferences. This way we can be travel partners with our fellow land grant university to the south and let the folks up in Forks fend for themselves. If it doesn't work out for und, they can always become travel partners with Crookston when the NCC and NSIC merge. ;D

The_Sicatoka
12-13-2002, 02:16 PM
Folks, upon further review, the SD BoR took a measured approach. They attached some important strings:

- The move will not be allowed without guarantee from a conference
- No additional state funds many be used to effectuate or maintain move
- Student fees may not be increased or new fees applied
- The new policy also requires that athletic scholarships be given only to students who meet the standard admission requirements of the university

The first one makes SDSU AD Fred Oien follow through on his past statements about not going without a conference.

The second one says the State of SD isn't paying for it.

The third one hurts because didn't either the CSL or Carr Report figure some increased revenue from higher fees?

The last one? I don't know, are they cutting breaks on admission standards for athletes? Would they?

Those are some important strings.

That nasty "conference" word rears its head again. I don't expect to see any conference add teams until after the NCAA meets in 2004. I've been wrong before, but we'll see.

tony
12-13-2002, 03:56 PM
JBB nicely put.

SDSU's admission standards are just like UND's and NDSU's for now, but once SDSU goes DI, they won't be able to go after the JUCO's that UND picked up for BB for example because DI's minimum standards are higher than UND's. Maybe rather than worrying about SDSU and NDSU, USD and UND should take a look at themselves.

JBB
12-13-2002, 04:41 PM
The conditions stated above were advanced by SDSU. *These will in now way impede their move up. *They were reassurances that the academic side would not suffer. :o

The conference issue is interesting. *SDSU now has the authority to move up, but they have not announced their intention. *Until they do they are firmly in the D2 ranks. *I suspect that the conference issue will be solved in partnership with NDSU and then they will announce their intention to move and withdraw from the NCC after their provisional year. *I think we will see things begin to move forward at a little faster clip. *:D

The NDSU job, should it become available will look very good to Dale Lennon. A $16,000/year raise, an increase in status and a very short move to a much nicer city. ;D

The_Sicatoka
12-13-2002, 06:26 PM
The conditions stated above were advanced by SDSU. *These will in now way impede their move up. *They were reassurances that the academic side would not suffer. :o

The conference issue is interesting. *SDSU now has the authority to move up, but they have not announced their intention. *Until they do they are firmly in the D2 ranks. *I suspect that the conference issue will be solved in partnership with NDSU and then they will announce their intention to move and withdraw from the NCC after their provisional year. *I think we will see things begin to move forward at a little faster clip. *:D

The NDSU job, should it become available will look very good to Dale Lennon. *A $16,000/year raise, an increase in status and a very short move to a much nicer city. ;D


Those provisions came as much from the chair of the SD BoR as anyone if you research into it. He didn't want to be obstructionist but didn't want to pay for it either.

Now, I'm asking: So what if they withdraw from the NCC "after their provisional year"? The withdrawl from the NCC becomes a mere formality because their "provisional year" signals "conference in hand," by ruling of the SD BoR, yes? They aren't allow to move before, correct? First they need the conference confirmation, then they can start their provisional year (because the provisional year is the first year of a transition, correct?). The true signal to the NCC is SDSU informing all that they are in their "provisional year." A letter to the NCC is trivial at that point because everyone knows it's coming.

Lennon at NDSU? Bison fans wouldn't stand for that. That'd be blasphemy, especially with he and his staff being the only guys there with National Championship rings .... and from UND no less. Geez, wouldn't that be a sign of the apocalypse? ;D

tony
12-13-2002, 06:36 PM
Sicatoka, what are you going to say after NDSU and SDSU get accepted into a conference?

The_Sicatoka
12-13-2002, 07:10 PM
What could I say?

Farewell. Good luck.

With the NCC rapidly changing (will this trigger UNO to go to the MIAA?) the reality is that UND could be on a similar path in the not so distant future. *

Like I said in another thread here, if UND made the move because the landscape around them shifted, I wouldn't have to like it, I'd just have to do it (meaning support UND, just like you support NDSU).

Guest
12-13-2002, 08:29 PM
Sicakota

Jewett wanted to give the preception that the restrictions were his and the Regent' idea. For a fact they were not, it was part of the pitch that President Miller and Fred Oien made all along. So these restrictions were factored into the SDSU game plan before the meeting in Rapid City. I understand there has been meetings as early as last summer with the regents on these measures. The restrictions were there all along, they only became public yesterday. The restrictions are not new by any means, just a face saver for Jewett in Aberdeen and Vermillion. Jewett practices law in Aberdeen and has two degrees and ties to USD.

JBB
12-15-2002, 03:39 PM
So it's becoming apparent. As the Chameleon changes color it wont be one of acceptance but one of reluctance. "We know it's wrong, but we are forced to move." Do you have any idea how hypocritical your sounding?

This is one of the finest examples of und behavior. You have tried desperately to keep a monopoly on DI exposure in ND. By refusing to move up since 1974 you have been able to stop NDSU. The geographical issue has been paramount because of the cost. Now that NDSU has enough money to overcome that issue and no longer needs und or the NCC to make the move your strategy has failed. SDSU and NDSU are now poised to move ahead. UNC has already moved. You played the big bluff and it has failed. Now your beginning to hedge your bets because a DI NDSU will certainly be a huge benefit for them and Fargo and leaves und and grand forks outside looking in.

What prevents you from saying "the move into DI is an exciting challenge and we look forward to joining our peers. We are Leaving DII reluctantly but look forward to the new opportunities."? :-/

NDSU does not need und in D1 and has no plans to include them in any situation. Whether or not you figure into the future in a D1 Midwest remains up to you but no longer are you a key element or even a needed or desired partner. Your refusal to cooperate with anyone and serve only your own interests has put you in a corner. At some point your going to have to come out of it. You have lost face.

The_Sicatoka
12-16-2002, 02:07 PM
From the beginning UND's stance has been "not interested" with the caveat that if the circumstances change they would have to evaluate it at that time. (Please refer to Dr. Kupchella's February 2002 statement.)

As things sit today, and believing you folks that the NDSU/SDSU consortium will find a conference, the NCC may be down to seven teams (including Minnesota-Duluth) in the very near future. That seems like a change of circumstance to me.

PS - I watched the DIAA FB semis this weekend. I believe most of the NCC would be competitive if those are the four best teams. Then I flipped channels and saw DI hoops and some "Olympic" sports and knew it would be very painful for quite a while.

tony
12-16-2002, 03:43 PM
Far as I can see nothing has changed except NDSU and SDSU leaving. President K had what, twelve paragraphs of reasons DI sucks that he sent off to the NCAA and every paper in ND, and all that goes away because NDSU and SDSU are leaving... wait a minute, that hasn't even changed, NDSU and SDSU had both gone public that they were going to take a good, hard look at DI, it's just that nobody believed them.

JBB is right to a point, but back when DIAA was formed, UND and NDSU were on the same page and both tried to get into the Big Sky. It didn't work out. He's right that having UND go DI doesn't help NDSU at all.

Sicatoka is right to a point too, NDSU will have to work very hard to compete in BB (although the women are already good enough to make the 64-team field) and the Olympic sports will be tough - even though NDSU can already compete with the U of M's track teams and VB teams.

Here's where Sicatoka lost me, how can anybody be caught off-guard by further scholarship reductions? It's not like I haven't known. The only reason it hasn't happened sooner is that... wait, it has has happened sooner, when we went from 45 to 36. The only reason it hasn't happened again is that it would have been too soon after the first cut. Now the NSIC and a whole ton of former NAIA teams that offer less than 20 scholarships each have joined DII. If UND's Athletic Department has been caught by surprise on this, it's because they are completely clueless.

BisonInTexas
12-16-2002, 04:41 PM
Far as I can see nothing has changed except NDSU and SDSU leaving. President K had what, twelve paragraphs of reasons DI sucks that he sent off to the NCAA and every paper in ND, and all that goes away because NDSU and SDSU are leaving... wait a minute, that hasn't even changed, NDSU and SDSU had both gone public that they were going to take a good, hard look at DI, it's just that nobody believed them.

JBB is right to a point, but back when DIAA was formed, UND and NDSU were on the same page and both tried to get into the Big Sky. It didn't work out. He's right that having UND go DI doesn't help NDSU at all.

Sicatoka is right to a point too, NDSU will have to work very hard to compete in BB (although the women are already good enough to make the 64-team field) and the Olympic sports will be tough - even though NDSU can already compete with the U of M's track teams and VB teams.

Here's where Sicatoka lost me, how can anybody be caught off-guard by further scholarship reductions? It's not like I haven't known. The only reason it hasn't happened sooner is that... wait, it has has happened sooner, when we went from 45 to 36. The only reason it hasn't happened again is that it would have been too soon after the first cut. Now the NSIC and a whole ton of former NAIA teams that offer less than 20 scholarships each have joined DII. If UND's Athletic Department has been caught by surprise on this, it's because they are completely clueless.

If I recall correctly, the scholarships were at 39 or 40 for a time as well in the later 80's, so it has been a gradual reduction that is easy enought to trend and see the future of DII. I also remember in the 80's that scholarship reductions were always on the table, the main proponents being the Pennsylvania schools (they offer 20 or less today) and the California schools, who benefit from heavy subsidies for California born students (in fact, doesn't Cal-Davis officially offer no athletic scholarships in DII, only academic?). The NCC schools had to fight every year to keep the scholarship maximums up. With the influx of smaller schools who are motivated to reduce the maximums to compete, that battle has been lost.

I also recall that UND and NDSU were entertaining a Big Sky offer in the 70s, but it was a package deal and UND pulled out. I will have to check the Ed Kolpack book on the history of Bison football tonight to verify, however, so that might be a case of wishful thinking on my part.

The main fault in the arguments of those who oppose a move up has always been, IMHO, that they totally discount the cost of staying put. Yes, it is going to be difficult to move up, find a conference, increase budget etc., but it is going to cost more in the long run to stay in the rapidly decaying DII. If you want your school to grow and increase its stature in the national scene, you are going to have to move up. Its just not going to happen in DII.

Craig

JBB
12-16-2002, 06:20 PM
I remember it the same way. und pulled out in the 70's. It may be in Kolpacks book, Ill check too.

There's no other way to read unds position except as an attempt to maintain a status-que that has served them well. As Tony has mentioned no circumstances have changed that werent already on the wall for everyone to see when Pres. K. went off the handle on all D1 sports except the lily white hockey game.

The only thing that is significant and suprising is the fact the USD has announced it is staying DII. That leaves the NCC in tact and really provides und with no excuse to move. Its hard to say the landscape has changed so much we have to follow our peers when your DII conference is still a full 7 members strong inacluding a new member.

There is no way und can make the move without exposing its' postion. It has tried to maintain a status quo that froze NDSU out of any benefits to be gained from DI athletics.

Now that the NCC is going to be a conference of DI hockey schools and DII everything else except for Augi and USD, I think its very likely they will support scholarship reductions in DII. Its a way to subsidize their hockey programs. Because of this I dont think the NCC will move to D1 in the forseeable future. I believe there is no chance of the NCC wanting to move in say 5 years or so.

I also dont see the NCC growing. Why would any school, except Duluth, want to leave an existing conference? Duluth was of course motivated since they were the a DI hockey school in the NSIC. There is no motivation other than that. Unless there are other schools that fit with the DI hockey DII sports mix I dont see the NCC adding any new members unless they grow into the division from the NAIA or DIII. Berrrmidji is of course a possiblity.

The_Sicatoka
12-16-2002, 11:19 PM
Firstly, I'm not a "football first" observer. I saw the number going down for DII. I figured it had stabilized at 36. Apparently (if the RMAC has its way) not. Conversely, do any of us know if a similar phenomena may not start happening in DIAA, or would those teams just dump FB and go DIAAA?

I'll reserve comment on WBB and WVB until I see them playing. Who knows how it'd come out today.

But track? Someone who should know told me that less than a third of the NDSU DII nationals track qualifiers made the DI qualification time last year. Can someone confirm or deny this report?

The non-revenue sports are going to suffer the worst through this, I think on that tony and I agree.

SDSUFAN
12-17-2002, 03:32 AM
I was not in the upper midwest during the 1970'S so can not add much about the UND-NDSU move to the Big Sky.

What I do recall was another meeting that occurred in Minneopolis in 1962. A long time ago. The Presidents from Montana State, Montana, Idaho, Idaho State, North Dakota State, U of North Dakota, U of South Dakota and South Dakota State met for the purpose of forming a new conference. The meeting did not last long as I recall and the reason was every one in the Dakotas was overwhelmed with the thought of travel costs.

Not many teams flew back then and SDSU did for the first time in1956 when Arizona paid their way to Tucson in order to get thumped real bad. I believe something like 60 to zip. Also about that time SDSU had a 12 year home and home contract with Montana State that ended about 1964. The Bobcats were tough back then.
Seems liKe UND and NDSU both played Montana State back then too.

The Montana and Idahos went home from Minneopolis and formerd the Big Sky and the Dakotas stayed with the NCC.

Just think if something could have happen back then.
The Sioux Fall Argus Leader was real parnoid about something happening here. Its interesting 40 years later SDSU and NDSU are eying the Big Sky.

BisonInTexas
12-17-2002, 04:55 AM
Tony was right - there was no UND pullout from the Big Sky.
From Bison Football: Three Decades of Excellence, page 103 (edited for space):

The big news in early 1978 was a report that the two North Dakota universities were interested in joining the Big Sky Conference.

NDSU and the University of North Dakota got into the conversation after the Big Sky Conference voted to move up from Division II in the NCAA to Division I-AA. The conference created a committee to study future expansion.

Talk of the Bison and Sioux leaving the NCC got a boost when Northern Iowa announced that it was dropping out of the NCC to join the Mid-Continent Athletic Association.

North Dakota, NDSU, Nevada-Reno and Portland (Ore.) State were interested in Big Sky membership. Reno and Portland were independent.

When Norther Iowa left the North Central, the Bison and the Sioux lost an ally for a strong football program. There was some doubt if the NCC was willing to support a program that could challenge for the national Division II championship.

"My coaches remind me that all five of our losses in the last two years were to schools with a more liberal scholarship program," said Ade Sponberg, Bison athletic director.

North Dakota and North Dakota State were prepared to act together if there was a move to another league. One of the questions facing both schools was the cost of moving up to Division I-AA.

...

Officials at North Dakota State and North Dakota let the Big Sky know in early May that they were interested in joinging the Division I-AA conference - if the Big Sky was interested in them.

The word came on May 23. Nevada-Reno was asked at a meeting of league presidents to join the Big Sky conference. That shut out the Bison and the Sioux.

"They weren't ready to handle a 10-game schedule," said Sponberg, who attended the Big Sky meeting with Fred Walsh, the NDSU institutional representative. "Weber State has a lucrative non-conference basketball schedule and Boise State is sitting the same way in football. They didn't want to give that up.

"We're not discouraged because we lost. We gave it our best shot. It's hard to say what the future holds. But it's (expansion in the Big Sky) not a dead issue."

...

According to Stan Marshall, the South Dakota State athletic director, this wasn't the first contact between North Central and Big Sky representatives relative to expansion.

"We haven't attended a Big Sky Conference meeting since 1966," said Marshall. "At that time the four NCC schools (S.D. State, South Dakota, NDSU and North Dakota) came away with the feeling that it was a grand idea. But too expensive. It would take $125,000 to $150,000 to join the Big Sky - if you want to get to the poker table with the same number of chips as those schools have.

The Kolpack book is great. I encourage anyone who doesn't have it to get it if it is still in print. Notice the similarity in the situation - Northern Iowa (UNC) is leaving and there is concern if the NCC (DII) will support a sufficient number of scholarships to compete. There are some other interesting parallels to today that I will post in another message (I think I am running up on the message size limit...). One thing it definitely shows is that NDSU has been contemplating the move for 35+ years, so this decision can hardly be considered rushed.

Craig

JBB
12-17-2002, 03:30 PM
Craig,

THREE DECADES OF EXCELLENCE is A great book. I hope his son JEff does anupdate some day. Im saving all the programs and forum writeups anyway. Thanks for the update. Pts 2 & 3 still stand however: 2) NDSU has been looking at this for a long time 3) Travel costs have always been the big issue and that has kept NDSU in DII and in the NCC since 1974.

Its clear und has little interest in moving any sports to DI. Its also clear that they have had a lot of trouble with the idea that NDSU is ready, willing and able to now do it. Although I was wrong about the reasons for the 1974 attempt failing ( I was a big supporter for it even then) I dont think its much of a stretch to say that und has been trying to discourage the move by NDSU at least to some degree at many different levels. From that Ive come to the conclusion that they are trying to block NDSU from enjoying any benefit of DI athletics.

BisonInTexas
12-17-2002, 04:13 PM
Craig,

THREE DECADES OF EXCELLENCE is A great book. I hope his son JEff does anupdate some day. Im saving all the programs and forum writeups anyway. Thanks for the update. Pts 2 & 3 still stand however: 2) NDSU has been looking at this for a long time 3) Travel costs have always been the big issue and that has kept NDSU in DII and in the NCC since 1974.

Its clear und has little interest in moving any sports to DI. Its also clear that they have had a lot of trouble with the idea that NDSU is ready, willing and able to now do it. Although I was wrong about the reasons for the 1974 attempt failing ( I was a big supporter for it even then) I dont think its much of a stretch to say that und has been trying to discourage the move by NDSU at least to some degree at many different levels. From that Ive come to the conclusion that they are trying to block NDSU from enjoying any benefit of DI athletics.



Since you are saving all of the info, maybe you can offer to help Jeff with the update... ;D

You should email Jeff and encourage him to do it. Maybe I can get an autographed copy just like my current copy. I remember Jeff writing for the Spectrum when I was at NDSU - he would do a good job.

I just posted the link to correct my misconception on how the deal went down in 1978. It is interesting to see how much UND has changed its position on moving up. In 1978, they were fully on board with NDSU and ready to move. There are a couple of Carl Miller (UND's AD at the time) quotes stating that UND thought it was very doable and a good idea (sorry I don't have the book with me at work :) ).

Now it is a completely different story, with the UND president spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) all over the NDSU move. I think that they don't want to jeapordize the golden goose at UND - the hockey program, and if they don't portray NDSU's move in a bad light, they will have to answer their own boosters as to why they aren't moving up. In 1978, they didn't have Ralph pumping millions into the hockey program and the hockey program was in a down period (at least as I recall - Sicatoka will correct me if I am wrong). I could understand and accept that decision if the UND President would just state it as such. Instead he throws in comments about the DI scandals and how UND doesn't want to be a part of that and such and it hurts his argument and makes him look hypocritical (hmm, DII is immune to scandals like having ineligible players on your BB team (cough Myron Allen cough) ).

I am fine with UND's position at the present (though not all the stated reasons for the decision), but I just think they are delaying the inevitable. They will move up if for no other reason than to keep pace with NDSU. It will be interesting to hear how they spin the decision to flip flop and join NDSU in the DI level. I hope the press brings Pres. K's editorial with them when they have the press conference to announce their decision in a few years.

Craig

tony
12-17-2002, 08:32 PM
Sicatoka, I said that the competition would be tougher. You translate that as "NDSU non-revenue sports will suffer." Huh?

I assumed that NDSU would rise to the challenge of DI or at least give it a damn good shot. HAHAHAHAhAAHA! Now that explains A LOT about the difference between NDSU's attitude vs UND's. Read Kupchella's rambling letter again and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. UND acts like competition is bad, NDSU acts like it's good.

Just to remind you, your primary objection to NDSU going DI was money. You said it over and over. DII lowering scholarships should actually mean that you are even more adamnant that UND should stay put. Hell, you've written that if it was up to you, intercollegiate athletics would be done away with altogether. At least try to keep your story straight :-X

It's not like DI becomes cheaper because DII says that FB can only have 24 scholarships rather than 36. It doesn't make it easier to find a DI conference. It doesn't shorten the DI probationary period. It doesn't preserve those longstanding but intensely dull rivalries with USD and Augie. It does not address the corruption that Kupchella rails abou. It doesn't mean that Ohio State's athletic budget is going to shrink. It does not mean that the U of Minnesota is going to erase their deficit. It does not even mean that non-revenue sports can compete in DI without any improvement.

In fact, DII lowering scholarships does not address a single objection to NDSU's decision.

Call me cynical but doesn't this confirm what I've said all along about the real reasons for the uproar NDSU's plans have caused among UND fans?