PDA

View Full Version : Sac State in Big Sky Trouble???



Bison_Kent
12-12-2003, 08:54 AM
I know that we all would like the Bison (and Jackrabbits) to get into a conference on their own merits but this is just out of The Forum:

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=46078

The Sac Bee articles on their athletic woes:

http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/story/7929980p-8867459c.html

http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/colleges/story/7837435p-8778010c.html

If it takes a team leaving for the Big Sky to consider NDSU and SDSU, I am still in favor of this. Look what NDSU and SDSU do for the Big Sky. These are two schools that have a strong fan base in both football and basketball and really want to be in the Big Sky. There will be no looking for a better conferene or an upgrade for these schools as the Big Sky is the ultimate goal (as far as competitiveness goes).

I for one am hoping Sac State drops out if this is NDSU's only way into the Big Sky.

TC.Bison
12-12-2003, 11:43 AM
I think they'd be crazy to not add the SUs. I think both schools can be competitive and would fit well. SDSU has 2 very good facilities for basketball and football. NDSU has plans to upgrade the BSA and has the fabulous fargodome. I don't think the Big Sky has too many schools with anything that equals the Fargodome other than Montana's stadium.

Question: Why aren't Cal Davis, St. Mary's, and UNC interested in the big sky? Would seem to me that they'd be obvious candidates since everyone out there seems to be hung up on travel?

Also, does anyone remember the breakdown of how many big sky schools were in favor/against/on the fence for letting us in?

Bisonguy
12-12-2003, 12:20 PM
UCD and St. Mary's are in the Big West. It is primarily a California conference, so travel is about as cheap as it gets.

The Big Sky does want to be at 10 teams, maybe if Sac. St. leaves, UNC can be a member with the Dakotas.

BisonMav
12-12-2003, 12:24 PM
On the surface, a 10 team Big Sky with UNC, SDSU and NDSU looks like a very solid conference.

Bisonfan1234
12-12-2003, 03:44 PM
San Jose State is why the Big Sky doesn't want us.

They've already said "no thanks" to expansion to the East. They're looking to add schools that are in big markets (big cities) to the west. Neither Fargo or Brookings is anything compared to the Bay Area. Fargo, however, probably has the best shot at being a big market in the future.

What would you guys think of dropping SDSU if the BSC said yes to us and no to them?

As far as Sac State, they'll probably drop football. They should, if it doesn't make any money. They'll be the latest in a long line of public California schools to drop football.

BisonMav
12-12-2003, 04:03 PM
.......They've already said "no thanks" to expansion to the East. They're looking to add schools that are in big markets (big cities) to the west. Neither Fargo or Brookings is anything compared to the Bay Area. Fargo, however, probably has the best shot at being a big market in the future.

What would you guys think of dropping SDSU if the BSC said yes to us and no to them?
The Minneapolis and St Paul papers probably cover SDSU and NDSU more than the Bay Area Papers cover Sac St. Almost every SDSU and NDSU game get a paragraph. Nearly two to three times a week a recruit is listed as going to NDSU or SDSU. NDSU or SDSU is closer to Twin Cities than the physical distance indicates.

SDSU has been a great partner in the move and I would not want to drop them.

Bison_Kent
12-12-2003, 04:28 PM
Bisonfan1234,

The Big Sky has already tried large West metro areas and look at what it has gotten them so far. It brought in Cal State-Northridge for the Los Angeles market, Sacramento State for the Sacremento market and Portland State for the Portland market. Northridge is no longer in the Big Sky. Sacramento State is on the verge of being let go and Portland State has had declining attendence since they were invited in the Big Sky.

I think the Big Sky is seeing the error of trying to go to large markets and seeing that it should look at adding schools that resemble the core group of the conference in Montana, Montana State, and Idaho State. NDSU and SDSU fit that exact mold.

Bisonfan1234
12-12-2003, 05:00 PM
I guess the paper was just lying when it said the Big Sky was going after San Jose State.

I'm not saying the big western market schools have done alot for them, they haven't. But that doesn't mean San Jose State would be a bad move for them.

They are also going after Idaho to join Idaho State.

Also, i think Northern Colorado fits with them geographically more than eitehr NDSU or SDSU.

I know we wanted to be together, but i wouldn't be opposed at all to dropping SDSU from our supposed "deal".

IowaBison
12-12-2003, 05:22 PM
I don't think that Sac State, Northridge or San Jose State have anything on NDSU.

Who cares if we are based in a metro with less than a quarter million people. *We are respected and people come to our games.

Those schools are so far down the line in terms of quality enterntainment that neither their students nor the coaches' wifes go to the games.

NDSU_grad
12-12-2003, 05:37 PM
From what I understand, N. Colorado wants no part of the Big Sky. It may seem odd, but it seems they made the move primarily for baseball and wrestling, which the Big Sky does not sponsor. Those sports are basically secondary considerations for NDSU. Also, I say NDSU and SDSU are a package deal. We've gone through this whole thing together, I think it'd be a shame for either school to be left out.

Bison_Kent
12-12-2003, 06:13 PM
San Jose State will most likely drop football from what I have read if they are forced down to the I-AA level. I am sure they are like other California schools that aren't in the PAC 10 (aside from UC-Davis). Football takes a lot of money and when fans don't come to the games and alumni don't donate money, they drop the debt maker sport.

But I don't think San Jose State or Idaho will move down. The new requirements (I believe) are to average 15,000 per game with 5 games per year to retain the I-A membership. Both schools can consider one of those home games a neutral site game such as Idaho playing Washington or Washington State in Seattle in the Seahawk's Stadium.

Bison7925
12-12-2003, 06:49 PM
There was no Sacramento State football on the calendar this weekend for the first time in three months, and the question is:
Did you even notice the games were over -- or even miss them?




The obvious answer is no.
The Hornets play before empty seats in Hornet Stadium and call home a region where some 70,000 Sac State alums equal only 376 season-ticket holders for football.

It's not hard to explain why when you consider that Hornet Stadium is a pit. Or when you can count on one hand the number of winning seasons the Hornets have had in the past 15 years.

Or that cross-region rival UC Davis has beaten Sac State 10 of the past 12 years.

But most of all, the truth is that there is no tradition of a college football culture at Sac State. There is no ivy, no breakout Hornet in the NFL and no legacy of stirring wins to fire the souls and open the wallets of alums.

So let's ask the question: Why keep playing football?

Why not follow the lead of other colleges and universities that got out of the football arms race to focus on other sports?

Why continue spending $1 million on a sport generating no revenues and even less interest?

Why not funnel that money and energy into basketball, women's volleyball and baseball -- sports that are less expensive and in which for the most part the Hornets have a foothold?

Before answering, here's some context: In the next few weeks, a commission to study the future of Sac State sports will forward recommendations to new president Alexander Gonzalez.

From there, Gonzalez is expected to address the issue in January, possibly at his state of the university address, after remaining silent to avoid influencing the debate.

Truth be told, Gonzalez probably won't consider the football issue -but he should.

He should see past the good intentions of Terry Wanless -- his athletic director and a fine man -- while looking for results and reason in pursuit of bettering sports and the greater Sac State campus.

Because when applying those standards to Sac State football, you don't get much beyond good intentions.

It's not the kids' fault or the coaches' -- they are just playing a game they can't win.

Sacramento isn't a college football hotbed, and, really, neither is Northern California compared to the rest of the nation.

Even Saturday's Big Game between Cal and Stanford wasn't sold out, despite the once-a-year hype it got from the media.

Not so at Sac State's Big Sky competitors, the University of Montana and Montana State, where college football is an obsession and the focus of statewide pride.

Montana in particular has a gleaming football stadium and a football budget almost double that of Sac State's million-dollar outlay.

While Wanless said comparing Sac State's budget to Montana is apples and oranges -- and he's probably right -- there is no denying this:

In our city obsessed with the Kings and other pro sports -- and in a region that doesn't need college football for identity -- the Hornets are an afterthought.

Some of that isn't their fault. College sports have become warped in a football-is-everything mentality -- while other sports are overlooked.

The only way to compete is to spend huge sums of money on football, money Wanless doesn't have. In fact, he said Sac State can compete with the Montanas and other Big Sky rivals in Division I-AA football by raising $1 million a year through corporate donations. (Currently they pull in roughly $700,000).

"Without football, campuses are at a great disadvantage in terms of pride and positive feelings," Wanless said. " ... I'm 100 percent convinced that football will make this campus what everyone wants it to be -- the flagship of the California State University System."

When Wanless speaks this way, you want to believe -- if only because he so strongly believes in what he's doing.

But clearly, schools like Cal State Fullerton, Long Beach State, Santa Clara, Boston University and others have done well without football while fielding championship teams in other sports.

So if I were Gonzalez, I would ask Wanless the following:

How can you say football is crucial to Sac State's sports when there has never been an atmosphere for college football on campus?

How are you going to get 70,000 disinterested alums to get fired up over playing Northern Arizona on a rainy Saturday night?

How -- in our current financial crisis -- are you going to fix Hornet Stadium?

Find honest answers to those questions -- answers that are not platitudes -- and then you have something.




After reading the article, I can answer one of the why's for Sac. State.

Why keep football?

*The U of Ralph has requested Terry Winless (former UoR AD) continue to beat it's head against the wall long enough to keep the BSC from inviting the SU's.

GoAgs
12-12-2003, 06:51 PM
Davis wants nothing to do with the Big Sky because the travel would be a nightmare. It is one thing to have a football team flying up to Idaho once a year but sending all of your programs up there would be expensive. The Big Sky does not sponsor many sports. The BWC is a powerhouse in baseball and volleyball--two sports that probably aren't that big up in your part of the country but are in California. Also there are some Big West schools that have academic similarities with Davis (Cal Poly, UCI, UCSB).

89rabbit
12-12-2003, 07:23 PM
I guess the paper was just lying when it said the Big Sky was going after San Jose State.

I'm not saying the big western market schools have done alot for them, they haven't. But that doesn't mean San Jose State would be a bad move for them.

They are also going after Idaho to join Idaho State.

Also, i think Northern Colorado fits with them geographically more than eitehr NDSU or SDSU.

I know we wanted to be together, but i wouldn't be opposed at all to dropping SDSU from our supposed "deal".

Careful Bison1234, if you start talking about dropping SDSU you will be playing into the hands of the "Big Sky folks" that you seem to be at odds with. *

If you want to be in the MVC (and I know you do) you need to stick with us. *SDSU is more likely to get an invite based on Basketball then NDSU is. *

This talk seems foolish to me. *I think it would be in neither schools best interest for us to be looked at as anything other then a package deal. *If you take away SDSU or NDSU from the equation we open ourselves up to the "travel issue", which seems to be our Achilles heel in this process. *I think we need and compliment each other. *IMHO we will go to a conf. together. *I know this process is frustrating but this is no time to throw your partner under the bus. *

Bison1234, I know you are just playing "what if" but I think it is a bad idea for either of us to go it alone.

Go SDSU!
Go NDSU!

Bisonguy
12-12-2003, 07:23 PM
GoAgs,

NDSU's women's VB program is pretty good. Lots of DII elite eight appearances. With the DI label, the recruits will probably be better.

BisonFan1234,

The Big Sky said they were "not looking to expand into the Dakotas at this time". What exactly that means, nobody knows. It's speculation on my and other's part, but I believe it means they don't want a member with the provisional status. Sure, Idaho and Idaho are targets for the Big Sky, but I doubt Idaho or SJSU will drop to I-AA. The Idaho AD has stated there are ways to get around the I-A requirements, such as nearly giving away tickets, etc.

Edit- dropping SDSU would be stupid. No conference would want NDSU without a travel partner for all the other sports. The Gateway would be the only conference that might consider NDSU by itself (they want to be at nine members). Then NDSU would be faced with the even greater battle of finding a conference for all other sports by itself.

somebison
12-12-2003, 07:25 PM
Davis wants nothing to do with the Big Sky because the travel would be a nightmare. It is one thing to have a football team flying up to Idaho once a year but sending all of your programs up there would be expensive. The Big Sky does not sponsor many sports. The BWC is a powerhouse in baseball and volleyball--two sports that probably aren't that big up in your part of the country but are in California. Also there are some Big West schools that have academic similarities with Davis (Cal Poly, UCI, UCSB).

our women's VB is normally pretty good.. and baseball is normally better than average.. they play in a nice stadium (see photo) they share with a minor league team but is difficult to get many home games in during the spring due to unpredictable weather, does Sac St play baseball and if so do they play in a conference?


http://www.minorleagueballparks.com/newman.jpg

Bisonguy
12-12-2003, 07:27 PM
That crowd is substantially larger than one at a Bison baseball game ;). Maybe DI baseball will draw a larger crowd.

somebison
12-12-2003, 07:37 PM
That crowd is substantially larger than one at a Bison baseball game *;). Maybe DI baseball will draw a larger crowd.

I went to almost all of the home Baseball games last year.. it is difficult to draw a great crowd on a 45 degree wednesday afternoon. *Weekend games *and the Bison-Sioux games had pretty good attendance though, I know we play the gophers at home in 05, (the U's associate AD played baseball for the bison) it will be interesting to see how many fans show for that one.

we did slightly outdraw Davis for Baseball
http://www.ncaa.org/stats/baseball/attendance/2003_attendance.pdf

Bisonfan1234
12-12-2003, 08:31 PM
Who cares if we are based in a metro with less than a quarter million people.

Obviously the big sky cares. Their last expansions have all been to big markets. Big markets mean more people, more people mean more money. That's the theory anyway.


It may seem odd, but it seems they made the move primarily for baseball and wrestling

Obviously someone was joking with you. I'm sure football and basketball draw the most fans during their seasons than any other sport.


Davis wants nothing to do with the Big Sky because the travel would be a nightmare.

This is an interesting point. Davis to Idaho State: 823.5 mi. NDSU to Idaho State:1086.2 mi.


Bison1234, I know you are just playing "what if" but I think it is a bad idea for either of us to go it alone.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I know that if we could get into the Gateway, we could get into the Mid-Con.

IowaBison
12-12-2003, 08:53 PM
Bison1234

1. The Big Sky moves into major metropolitan areas have been failures, all of them.

2. UNC did move for baseball and wrestling (period). They'll also be successful at IAA football, but that is a side note.

3. .....Newsflash....UCD is in California, we are North Dakota....No matter who play, if we are DI we are going to be Gypsies.......California must have thirty+ DI schools, why travel halfway across the US for a conference game....

4. Quit worshipping the MidCon, it will be a horrible thing to have to settle for, I can't see why anyone would prefer it.

NDSU_grad
12-12-2003, 09:15 PM
I went to almost all of the home Baseball games last year.. it is difficult to draw a great crowd on a 45 degree wednesday afternoon. *Weekend games *and the Bison-Sioux games had pretty good attendance though, I know we play the gophers at home in 05, (the U's associate AD played baseball for the bison) it will be interesting to see how many fans show for that one.




we did slightly outdraw Davis for Baseball
http://www.ncaa.org/stats/baseball/attendance/2003_attendance.pdf

I never would have guessed that we were 7th in the nation for baseball attendance. I'd say that's quite impressive for a northern school. It's too bad games aren't in May and June (although we'd be competing with the Redhawks then). I'm sure it'd be easy to get a thousand people to a home game if the weather was in the 70's instead of the 40's.

Bisonguy
12-12-2003, 09:25 PM
BisonFan1234,


Quote: Davis wants nothing to do with the Big Sky because the travel would be a nightmare. *



This is an interesting point. Davis to Idaho State: 823.5 mi. NDSU to Idaho State:1086.2 mi.


UC Davis is in the Big West conference for most sports other than football-http://www.bigwest.org Other than Idaho and Utah State, it is a California conference. Cal Poly is about 4 hours from Davis, Fullerton is about 6.5 hours away, Northridge is 6.5 hours, Long Beach 6 hours, Irvine 6.5 hours, Riverside 6.75 hours, Santa Barbara 6 hours, Stockton (Pacific) one hour. What does this mean? Lots and lots of bus trips. Much cheaper than the airfare of the Big Sky. Travel would be a nightmare for UC Davis if they were in the Big Sky.

JACKGUY
12-12-2003, 09:27 PM
Bison1234

It's apparent that you feel SDSU is dragging down NDSU's chances of securing entry into a conference. It's a real mystery to me why you think NDSU is more attractive than SDSU. I could on and list all of our accomplishments in winning the overall NCC trophy and Sears Cup accomplishments, but I won't...Both schools and states have a lot to offer a conference. We have no chance with these conferences if we don't go in as a package as they are not going to want to travel out here for one game. It is well documented NDSU is a powerhouse in football and the Jacks in Basketball and that alone would provide some diversity in the BIg Sky. You seem to have this fixation that being in a large community translates into attendence and revenue success when the facts in Sacramento,Portland and San Jose bring out the opposite. Fargo is a thriving community and while Brookings is a small college town it has tremendous statewide support and has a community in Sioux Falls 50 miles away that is 40,000 + bigger than Fargo. Lets not go down the path of trying to justify which school is more attractive when the bottom line is that together we are much stronger than apart!

IowaBison
12-12-2003, 10:29 PM
In my opinion, NDSU is a much stronger single addition to a conference than SDSU would be for a number of reasons.

But I think that it's nearly irrelevant, because we need a traveling buddy and I can't think of a better one than SDSU, even better than the school to the north.

You get two land grants, one that has a great football tradition, one that is a great basketball school, both with great support and success in the other programs as well.

I think it's also important to bring along an old member of the NCC to create a feeling of continuity in both programs

I don't think that anyone who thinks that NDSU should be shopping for a conference seperately should be taken seriously.

roadwarrior
12-12-2003, 10:29 PM
Getting back to the topic of Sac State.

Did you see the capacity of their basketball arena? Only 1300! This is a D-1 facility?

So far this season, Sac State has drawn crowds of 962, 851 and 1064 for their home games.

Checking Portland State, they have drawn 861 and 778 to their 2 home games so far this season. They also play in a very small facility (1500).

We always talk football when talking about getting into the Big Sky conference. It looks like NDSU and SDSU would both bring up the level of facilities for basketball, and would definately raise the attendence at games.

IowaBison
12-12-2003, 10:32 PM
I don't know what happened to Portland State. *They were doing well as a D2 program, but have done awfully poor in their transition, Gene Taylor beware.

Their basketball program, especially ladies used to be top notch, not anymore. *

This is also a lesson about community colleges and the fair weather fans they have versus true universities that have die hard fans even when they stink--take Iowa State for example.

roadwarrior
12-12-2003, 10:40 PM
NDSU and SDSU have an advantage over teams like Sac State and Portland State because we would both be the ONLY D-1 program in our states. We dont have to compete with large established D-1 schools and we dont have to compete with professional sports for the fan's entertainment dollars.

Both Fargo and Brookings are going to be successful places to run D-1 programs. Even with the difference in size between Fargo and Brookings, the Rabbits get their fans out for the games.

Travel to NDSU and SDSU always seems to come up when talking about which conference to join. Getting to Fargo cant be any more difficult than getting to Bozeman, Missoula, Cheney or Flagstaff. Once you are on a plane, going that extra distance to Fargo is not that big of a deal.

roadwarrior
12-12-2003, 10:45 PM
JACKGUY,

Most of us want SDSU to make the same choice as NDSU as far as conference affiliation. It will be a great rivalry for our fans with only 180 miles or so of I-29 separating us.

bisonincolorado
12-12-2003, 11:26 PM
roadwarrior, you hit it right on! Look at UNC, 20 miles west you have CSU, 45 miles south the buffs, and broncos. Friends of mine say SU is like the corn. Only show in town! Wake up Big Sky!

BisonBizzo
12-12-2003, 11:40 PM
Jackguy,
I want SDSU and NDSU in the same conference... I agree with you in your entire, except for the Sioux Falls 40,000+ bigger than Fargo thing... I get in this argument all the time with my sodak friends. The 2000 adjusted census has Fargo's metro at 175803 and Sioux Falls' metro at 173401. Although Sioux Falls has been growing at a faster rate, I just wanted to make the point we are a little bigger up here in the north some suggest.

Bisonfan1234
12-13-2003, 12:56 AM
Bison1234

It's apparent that you feel SDSU is dragging down NDSU's chances of securing entry into a conference. It's a real mystery to me why you think NDSU is more attractive than SDSU. I could on and list all of our accomplishments in winning the overall NCC trophy and Sears Cup accomplishments, but I won't...Both schools and states have a lot to offer a conference. We have no chance with these conferences if we don't go in as a package as they are not going to want to travel out here for one game. It is well documented NDSU is a powerhouse in football and the Jacks in Basketball and that alone would provide some diversity in the BIg Sky. You seem to have this fixation that being in a large community translates into attendence and revenue success when the facts in Sacramento,Portland and San Jose bring out the opposite. Fargo is a thriving community and while Brookings is a small college town it has tremendous statewide support and has a community in Sioux Falls 50 miles away that is 40,000 + bigger than Fargo. Lets not go down the path of trying to justify which school is more attractive when the bottom line is that together we are much stronger than apart! * *

Personally i wonder why all the SDSU fans are so adamant when it comes to sticking with NDSU. If you're so good then why not venture off by yourselves and see what you can get into? I'd be suprised if there aren't already people in SDSU thinking the same way i am. Maybe we should end this deal and simply do what's best for ourselves.

The F-WF-M metro area has a population of 137,716 (expected to grow to around 300,000 by 2050) while Sioux Falls has a population of 123,975. Yes, more people does mean more money potential. The problem with Portland, Sac, LA, and San Jose is that the schools they had were not the top programs in those cities. NDSU and SDSU are obviously the top (and only) programs in the area.

TC.Bison
12-13-2003, 01:36 AM
1.) It would be a big mistake for both schools if NDSU and SDSU were to separate.

2.) I think we're overestimating the importance of the metropolitan populations. Ever been to Manhattan Kansas (KSU)....not sure how big it is but it's not even close to Fargo (or shit pot 70 miles north for that matter).

3.) I get the UC Davis travel thing now, much less than ours would be but more than there's would have to be with their other conference. I still don't get UNCs thinking.

4.) Can we stop talking about baseball, etc. Football pulls the wagon, basketball is 2nd (but not even close), everything else is pretty much irrelevent.

5.) The biggest problem I see with the DI move is that in 10 years the Fargodome will be too small.

roadwarrior
12-13-2003, 04:11 AM
It would be great if the Fargodome became too small in the future. Then only the people that really want to go will make an effort to be there.

JACKGUY
12-13-2003, 04:32 AM
Not to belabor the population debate but you brought it up first. Sioux Falls has a population of 133,000 city limits. I'm certain Fargo is under 100,000 excluding Moorhead and whatever else you define as Metro area. Sioux Falls is also growing at a faster rate. The state has 100,000 more people. None of this is going to define who is going to succeed at Division I. We both need fans outside of a 60 mile radius to be successful and must convert sports fans who are currently not following either one of our schools. My initial issue was Bison 1234 inferrring that the formula for success is being in a metro area when the facts clearly show schools in the BigSky that are in large cities are not doing well from an attendence perspective.

JACKGUY
12-13-2003, 04:52 AM
For curiosity sake and spirit of the debate. 2000 Census Fargo population-90,599 Sioux Falls population 123,975. If you want to start talking about metro areas and counting communities in other states(Moorhead)there are a few towns in Iowa and Minnesota both within 7 miles of Sioux Falls that we can throw in to make the metro comparison fair.

Bisonfan1234
12-13-2003, 05:15 AM
Not so fast.

A metro area is a core city and *only* cities that are touching the core city. This includes cities that would be touching the core city except for a river.

This means that West Fargo and Moorhead are included in Fargo. Sioux Falls, however, has no cities touching it and stands by itself.

Bisonfan1234
12-13-2003, 05:17 AM
Not to belabor the population debate but you brought it up first. Sioux Falls has a population of 133,000 city limits. I'm certain Fargo is under 100,000 excluding Moorhead and whatever else you define as Metro area. Sioux Falls is also growing at a faster rate. *The state *has 100,000 more people. None of this is going to define who is going to succeed at Division I. We both need fans outside of a 60 mile radius to be successful and must convert sports fans who are currently not following either one of our schools. My initial issue was Bison 1234 inferrring that the formula for success is being in a metro area when the facts clearly show schools in the BigSky that are in large cities are not doing well from an attendence perspective.

I never said a team had to be in a big market to be sucsesful. I said that the last expansions of the Big Sky have been in big markets. If this trend continues, San Jose State will join the big sky. Idaho also might join the Big Sky.

roadwarrior
12-13-2003, 05:50 AM
Idaho left the Big Sky in July 1996.

sacradelicious
12-13-2003, 07:31 AM
i am the hornet fan that can answer all of your questions.

tc & bisonguy- answer travel.
davis joined the big west, almost all member schools in cali. great situation for all sports except no fb.
smc is in the west coast conf (jesuit schools) has been in that conf. many years. great situation except no fb. two conference rivals are less than 40 miles away (santa clara, univ of sf)

roadwarrior- yes we need facilities! we had a president here at sac state that held the position for 19 years. during that time, we evoled from d2 non scholarship to d2 scholarship to d1 (except fb) to d1 with football 1aa, without $1.00 towards building new athletic facilities. also during that time, we grew from 9,000 students to 30,000! we have played games at arco,but if you don't draw more than 5,000 to a game, you will loose $$$. we will know in the next month about new facilities from our new president

bisonmav: san jose would never join the big sky. they will never drop fb to 1aa (ad has stated that in mercurynews.com) if they drop fb, they move into the big west

bison_kent: too much info to tell on your post.
1) if sac state is to ever leave the bsc, it will be to move to the wac. in 2000, after fb went 7-4, they were invited to start a new conf with montana, idaho, portland state, new mexico state, utah state. it was sac state pres. girth that talked the other bsc schools from starting this league! doug fullerton, bsc comish, know that sac state kept the bsc together.

also, sac state is needed in the bsc because of cali. more athletes are recruited out of cali, and would like to play games in the state

2) nothridge story.
they joined the big sky (known for football) to get into the big west.
remember, they tryed to get in the bwc in the early 90's, couldn't because of facilities, was offered a spot in the bsc, jumped at it. then improved athletic facilities (except football)... applied again in '99 to get in the big west, got in, droped football. end of story

3) sac state was in the top 25 in attendance for 1aa football in '99 and '00. (average over 10,000 both years)you can check ncaa.org

bisonmav- we are covered by many bay area newspapers and we had a game on fox bay area. we have always had a good number of athletes from the bay area (3rd largest media market in the us)

big sky conference future? 12 teams, conference championship game, could be fun! they could also throw in baseball now.

bsc west
sac
portland st
nau
ewu
isu
wsu

bsc east
montana
msu
ndsu
sdsu
nd
sd

Charger
12-13-2003, 09:41 AM
Not so fast.

A metro area is a core city and *only* cities that are touching the core city. This includes cities that would be touching the core city except for a river.

This means that West Fargo and Moorhead are included in Fargo. Sioux Falls, however, has no cities touching it and stands by itself.

Actually metro areas are determined by the populations of counties that have a certain percent of people that work in the main city. I can't remember the percent, but there was an article in the Argus this summer saying that Sioux Falls has over 200,000. Not that any of this matters with fielding a successful team, but thought I would point it out.

TC.Bison
12-13-2003, 12:49 PM
I'm not sure who is right on the metro population argument but........who cares? Many major colleges are located in what I would consider small towns/small cities. Granted, many of them are closer to other centers of population than Fargo or Brookings. An exciting DI football program will draw from 3 hours in every direction.

JBB
12-13-2003, 01:29 PM
We have to stick together pure and simple. I dont think there is any opportunity for either school alone.

I dont think Sac State is going to drop football. I think they will improve facilities.

The BSC future of 12 teams in likely. Maybe USD would be replaced by UNC.

UNC is facing the same stonewall with the BSC as are the NCC schools. We have deep connections into the BSC. That might be why we remain interested when UNC appears to be looking elsewhere?

BisonMav
12-13-2003, 03:08 PM
..........bisonmav: *san jose would never join the big sky. *they will never drop fb to 1aa (ad has stated that in mercurynews.com) *if they drop fb, they move into the big west

bisonmav- we are covered by many bay area newspapers and we had a game on fox bay area. we have always had a good number of athletes from the bay area (3rd largest media market in the us).......

bsc west
sac
portland st
nau
ewu
isu
wsu

bsc east
montana
msu
ndsu
sdsu
nd
sd

FYI - I did not mention San Jose State.

* * My post was did not mean to state that NDSU had better press, but that it was just as noteworthy as the press that Sac St gets in the bay area. *The Twin Cities have just under 3 million people. *A Majority of the Bison athletes are from Minnesota. *
* * I can see a Big Sky with Sac St and the Dakota's. *If not, and the Great Western takes shape, that is fine too. *Thanks for bringing us you view from the Sac St side.

2000 Census:
Fargo Metro: 175,630
Sioux Falls Metro: 172,212
Looks to be about the same to me.

Bisonfan1234
12-13-2003, 05:04 PM
SDSU isn't in Sioux Falls.

Don't think for a minute that SDSU gets 100% of the Sioux Falls fans either.

Augustana? U of Sioux Falls?

So at most, give SDSU half of sioux falls's population.

JACKGUY
12-13-2003, 07:15 PM
Bison1234 Thank you for clearing it up for me that SDSU is not in Sioux Falls. I never said that 100% of sports fans in Sioux Falls are SDSU fans. I don't think the Bison have locked up every fan in Fargo as I think there are a few UND grads in town. The point is we both need regional support and expand our fan bases to be succesfull. I imagine a wonderful rivalary evolving in the future. Your fooling yourself if you think we are better off trying to market ourselves individually to potential conferences. Two landgrant universities with great academic and athletic tradition and no other competitive
DI programs in the state should be very attractive to these respective conferences.

Bisonfan1234
12-13-2003, 07:39 PM
I'm definately not saying that we should definately seperate.

I am, however, noticing that SDSU is good in basketball and NDSU is good in football.

What if NDSU could get into Gateway right now?

What if SDSU could get into MVC right now?

Perhaps we need to do what we each need to do.

tony
12-14-2003, 09:52 PM
It would be great if the Fargodome became too small in the future. *Then only the people that really want to go will make an effort to be there.

Yeah, the FargoDome selling out for the season is not a problem needing a solution (it's more of a goal worth striving for).

WYOBISONMAN
12-16-2003, 01:44 AM
Sounds to me from this thread that almost everyone (except an un-named Bison fan) want to see NDSU in the BSC. Let's hop[e it happens.

TC.Bison
12-16-2003, 04:16 AM
Big Sky is surely my first choice. However, we can't keep waiting forever...if they don't give us an affirmative answer soon, we'll have to move on with the new conference. The uncertainty isn't good if it drags out too long. How long do we wait? I'm not sure.

JBB
12-16-2003, 12:21 PM
It looks like we are prepared to wait a while. If we want escape clauses to leave the GWC whenever we want I think its a clear msg. we are looking long term. Its hard for me to believe that there is no hope. Dr. Chapman comes from Montana State, he must have some insight. If there wasnt reason for hope I doubt we would be hanging around asking for escape clauses.

Bisonfan1234
12-16-2003, 02:48 PM
There is reason for hope: the Gateway.

JACKGUY
12-16-2003, 03:14 PM
The Gateway would be a great football conference to be in, but I have heard no overtures from them or discussion from the ADS on the possibilty .

Bisonfan1234
12-16-2003, 04:05 PM
None seems better than nothing but negative "no thanks" and "not going east" crap from the BSC.

Also, they might simply be considering ONLY NDSU for joining. Perhaps that's why you've heard nothing.

WYOBISONMAN
12-16-2003, 05:17 PM
Yes....we know you like the Gateway.....keep reminding us or we may forget... ;)

JACKGUY
12-16-2003, 06:12 PM
Oh that's right in your isolated opinion on this board NDSU should go off and negotiate their own deal with a conference because SDSU has nothing to offer the Gateway or any other conference. I think we all would have heard something regardless of whether it was just NDSU or both schools negotiating with the Gateway. I have no doubt both Chapman and Oien are having confidential conversations with a variety of conferences, however I firmly believe they are on the same page and are approaching this as a package regardless of your negative posts to the contrary!

Bisonfan1234
12-16-2003, 06:18 PM
I don't understand how that could make you mad.

So what if NDSU goes one way and SDSU another? You never depended on us like this before...what's the deal now?

JACKGUY
12-16-2003, 06:32 PM
I could care less if we end up in the same conference as I wouldn't call our current situation a rivalary. The fact is for logistic,financial and numerous other reasons we will go into the same conference as UND and USD sit on the sidelines and enjoy DII athlethics. I'm certain a rivalary will develop over time in all sports. The problem I have is insinutating one program (NDSU) is more marketable and desirable than the other which you have done on numerous occasions. We both bring different assets to the table. It doesn't matter if we agree as it is apparent most people don't agree with you on this board. What matters is the administration at both SDSU and NDSU have determined the best strategy for our respective institutions to get into a conference is to present ourselves as a package.

Bison_Kent
12-16-2003, 06:39 PM
JackGuy,

I will have to admit that I brought up a similar topic as BisonGuy1234 8-9 months ago if a conference was looking for just one school. *

But I don't agree seperating is what either school would want. *For football, I could see being seperate as teams only make 4-5 in conference road trips per year but for basketball, volleyball, and other sports, it makes sense to have a travel partner. *I would rather see the two schools stay together and build on a rivalry in all sports. *Plus, if there would be at least one road trip that could be made between the two schools. *

D
12-16-2003, 06:45 PM
JackGuy,

I will have to admit that I brought up a similar topic as BisonGuy1234 8-9 months ago if a conference was looking for just one school. *

But I don't agree seperating is what either school would want. *For football, I could see being seperate as teams only make 4-5 in conference road trips per year but for basketball, volleyball, and other sports, it makes sense to have a travel partner. *I would rather see the stay together and build on a rivalry. *Plus, if there would be at least one road trip that could be made between the two schools. *

I agree with BisonKent completely. Different conferences in football have to be a posibility. Football drives D1 athletics, and lets face it, SDSU has never had much to offer from that end of the deal, and simply aren't as marketable/desirable as NDSU football. For the other sports, NDSU and SDSU will have to be a pachage deal.

JACKGUY
12-16-2003, 06:46 PM
I agree as the only problem I have with the move to any of these conferences and the move to DI in general is the inability to get to away games. Living in the Twin Cities I currently get to a lot of road games and I'm dissapointed that will not be as easy in future, but would enjoy the opportunity to drive up to Fargo on a
regular basis to see the Jacks and Bison fight it out.

JACKGUY
12-16-2003, 06:48 PM
You could also say that NDSU doesn't have much to offer a conference from a Basketball perspective.

D
12-16-2003, 06:52 PM
You could also say that NDSU doesn't have much to offer a conference from a Basketball perspective.

True, but the potential for a basketball only split doesn't exist, unless they went into different conferences all together, so it isn't a valid argument. They do offer more from a woman's perspective, though.

JACKGUY
12-16-2003, 08:01 PM
While I have grown to appreciate the womens game I would not hinge my Division I revenue aspirations and visability on the womens program.

SDSUFAN
12-16-2003, 08:30 PM
I don't understand how that could make you mad.

So what if NDSU goes one way and SDSU another? You never depended on us like this before...what's the deal now?

First of all, SDSU is not depending on NDSU for anything.
Did NDSU lend SDSU some money? I dont think so.
Where do you get this preception of SDSU dependence on NDSU?

The fact that NDSU has 7 D2 NC football trophies has nothing to do with this cooperative effort. Those trophies dont mean sh*t now, when you are looking for a D1AA conference. They did when they were won.

The fact that both institutions have a common educational mission is whats driving this cooperative effort.

An important fact to remember is that both schools do not have a conference. Lets not forget that important point. Its easier working together than against each other.

I think in working to get admittance its better to work together than separately. Both President Miller and Champan can see that as do AD'S Oien and Taylor.
The only one who cant see that is BISON1234, who ever he may be.

NDSU_grad
12-16-2003, 08:40 PM
Thankfully, neither SDSU or NDSU's hopes of getting into a conference are in the hands of Bisonfan1234. Working together to get in a conference will prove much easier than trying to go it alone. SDSUFAN, I hate to brag, but it is 8 national football championships. ;)

tony
12-16-2003, 08:58 PM
NDSU and SDSU have a much better chance of getting a conference by working together - almost everybody sees that.

D
12-16-2003, 10:03 PM
The fact that NDSU has 7 D2 NC football trophies has nothing to do with this cooperative effort. *Those trophies dont mean sh*t now, when you are looking for a D1AA conference. They *did when they were won.



You're pretty naive if you think that NDSU's 7 football NC's doesn't play a part,even a small one. It shows that they are a successful football school. According to that logic, Jamestown St. could move up right now and be seen as equal to NDSU and SDSU. Past success plays a role, makes teams a lot more attractive. No conference in their right mind wants to welcome in an unsuccessful school.

IowaBison
12-16-2003, 10:07 PM
I think that NDSU being a successful and financially stable program to us moving up than any single trophy we've got.

Bisonfan1234
12-16-2003, 10:35 PM
Gateway = football only.

NDSU football IS more marketable than SDSU.

I think NDSU could get into the Gateway right now alone. Sorry SDSU, you can join the new GWC if you want.

I don't care alot about the other sports. You can argue about them if you want.

I also don't get the whole "travel" partners thing. I thought we had plenty of money to travel. This is twice now where travel is uncertain.

Bison_Kent
12-16-2003, 10:43 PM
Even if NDSU (and SDSU for that matter) have a lot of money for travel, other schools do not. Having NDSU and SDSU relatively close to one another make them inviting for other teams to travel for a weekend trip.

Even if NDSU would get into the Gateway, what do we do with the other sports? By isolating SDSU from also being in the Gateway, that pretty much means that we would want to isolate them from the other sports conference that we would get into.

Bison1234, you are the only one that is seeing this (at least in my mind) illogical point of view.

NDSU and SDSU need one another to sell a conference(s) as a whole.

IowaBison
12-16-2003, 10:53 PM
As a pair, I think that NDSU/SDSU are the strongest programs to come out of D2 since Troy State. Now all we need is for the Big Sky to realize this.

JACKGUY
12-16-2003, 11:10 PM
Bison 1234- If your so confident that NDSU can get into the Gateway solo than why hasn't it happened? The problem with the Gateway and the GWC is the fact that they only solve one sports schedule. You might not care about the other sports, but I'm sure the NDSU administration does and is trying to find the best possible conference solution for the majority of the sports which is currently the Big Sky. The fact that you don't understand the travel partner scenario and how that effects both NDSU and SDSU in terms of both traveling and hosting events tells me that you really don't care about anything other than getting your beloved football team into your conference of choice. Football is very important, but will not dictate all the terms of which conference NDSU and SDSU join.

Bisonfan1234
12-16-2003, 11:55 PM
OK how about this?

NDSU - Gateway/Mid-con

SDSU - GWC/MVC

With that scenario, NDSU football fans get the best and SDSU basketball fans get the best.

Happy now?

D
12-17-2003, 12:00 AM
OK how about this?

NDSU - Gateway/Mid-con

SDSU - GWC/MVC

With that scenario, NDSU football fans get the best and SDSU basketball fans get the best.

Happy now?

Neither NDSU or SDSU has a snowballs chance in Hell of getting into the Missouri Valley. Anybody who thinks that should be admitted to a psychiatric clinic. There is zero chance that they would put their conferences now excellent name on the line by accepting a NDSU or SDSU.

IowaBison
12-17-2003, 12:34 AM
SDSU-Big Ten
NDSU-Big Twelve

Everybody happy?

SDSUFAN
12-17-2003, 12:58 AM
I apologize for maybe belittling the NDSU's NC's in football and if there are 8 of them good for you guys. :)
It been a pain to watch and wait for a NDSU VS SDSU scores since 1963. Very little joy in Mudville, aka SDSU.

My point is that its not a matter of dependence but cooperation that is going to find a conference for both schools. *Several of the subsequent posts after mine by NDSU fans bear that agreement. *I was and am irriated with Bisonfan1234 conclusion that somehow there is a dependence relationship and nothing could be further from the truth.

Past accompolishments will count, but they will not be a tie breaker in finding a conference. *Its a zillion things besides whats in the trophy room. * ;D

NDSU_grad
12-17-2003, 03:33 AM
SDSUFAN, I never felt you were belittling NDSU. *Bison fans are often accused of being pretty arrogant, so I was just poking a little fun at us by making your corrections. *Don't let Bison1234 upset you. *Everybody on this messge board (except of course for one person) and the entire NDSU athletic administration realize that NDSU needs SDSU for this move to be successful. *We complement each other perfectly and I for one am looking forward to developing a rivalry in the future.

Bisonfan1234
12-17-2003, 04:16 AM
We don't have to be in the same conference to develop a rivalry.

89rabbit
12-17-2003, 05:52 AM
SDSU-Big Ten
NDSU-Big Twelve

Everybody happy?

Not everyone, Bison1234 wants to be in the Gateway! ;)

Go SDSU!
Go NDSU!

See you guys in whatever conf. WE end up in! ;D

WYOBISONMAN
12-17-2003, 06:26 PM
Man....all this Gateway discussion is just silly. If there is a chance of anything it is either the GWC or the BSC. I would guess that the BSC probably isn't real keen on the idea of another powerful conference in the West and will admit a couple of more schools to kill the GWC. We will just have to wait to see how it plays out.

As for the Gateway.....Ugh....give it a rest.

Bisonfan1234
12-17-2003, 07:01 PM
LOL!

You wish the BSC was likely. The Gateway is more likely than the BSC right now. You give it a rest.

IowaBison
12-17-2003, 07:41 PM
Bisonfan1234, I think that you should accept as fact that NDSU is not doing anything apart from SDSU and that neither is going to be accepted into the Gateway. The response from their commissioner is much less open to expansion in our area than the BSC.

Bisonfan1234
12-17-2003, 10:49 PM
And the response of the BSC is clearly no. After we embarrest their best team, i'm sure they definately won't be accepting us anytime soon.

Looks like GWC it is.

roadwarrior
12-18-2003, 01:10 AM
If anything, our win over Montana would increase our chances of getting into the BSC. It would show the conference members that we would be a great addition to their membership.

Bisonfan1234
12-18-2003, 02:05 AM
If anything, our win over Montana would increase our chances of getting into the BSC. *It would show the conference members that we would be a great addition to their membership.

Yeah just like it showed Georgia Southern and others how much they wanted to play us.

89rabbit
12-18-2003, 02:31 AM
You look for totaly different qualities in a non-conf. game opponent vs a new conf. member.

Bisonfan1234
12-18-2003, 02:36 AM
Right...

So with NC you want the easiest opponents possible, but with C you want the hardest opponents possible.

Right...

89rabbit
12-18-2003, 02:40 AM
More or less. Not always the case but true more often then not. *When the NCC was looking for a replacement for UNC who did they take the bottom of the NSIC or the Top. *Here comes UMD. *That of course opens up the question who is the NCC going to get to replace NDSU and SDSU *??? *;) *;D

Bison7925
12-18-2003, 03:26 AM
89rabbit
The answer to your question is difficult.

Who is going to provide the revenue to the NCC that NDSU/SDSU were able to generate.
The attendence figures for the NCC in all sports is going to suffer greatly. The NCC was able to get UMD, but who else can afford the entry fee ???

I think they will have to recruit someone for the U of Ralph to play, so, UM Crookston comes to mind. This would keep their fierce rivalry alive as well as save on travel expenses.

Pig Eddie(Schultz) mentioned St. Thomas. This would fit the U of R scheduling philosophy.

Bisonfan1234
12-18-2003, 04:08 AM
Concordia and Winona seem logical replacements if they can get the extra money needed for extra scholorships.

Bemidji could also replace UND if they go.

IowaBison
12-18-2003, 04:10 AM
The NCC is going to turn into a dump, as is D2.

Anybody want to take bets as to when the next team jumps ship?

UND
UNO
SCSU

five years?
less?

Bisonfan1234
12-18-2003, 04:19 AM
UNO could go to the MIAA...where would UND and SCSU go?

Bisonguy
12-18-2003, 04:20 AM
UNO could go to the MIAA...where would UND and SCSU go?

Who cares?

Bisonfan1234
12-18-2003, 05:25 AM
If they have no where to go, then they can't leave.

D
12-18-2003, 05:34 AM
If they have no where to go, then they can't leave.

Funny, seems your beloved NDSU is going into the very situation you describe.

JBB
12-18-2003, 01:27 PM
NDSU has a lot of options, playing St. Thomas and/or Bemidji isnt one of them.

und must be feeling the pinch. They have lost 3 big opponents in the last 2 yrs - NDSU, SDSU and UNC. These games will be hard to replace especially with the no DI ordered by thomas.

und is going to have to upgrade its travel budget considerably. They dont draw enough to make big guarantees a la NDSU so they are going to have to have home home agreements. The only teams that might draw arent anywhere around here unless they can get NWMSU to come up, but they wont.

My guess is a home/home with Winona, a team that will have nothing next season with the graduation of 23 seniors and TAMUK. Beyond that its hard to say.

A good game for NDSU would be a nice fat guarantee game with GVSU.

D
12-18-2003, 06:03 PM
NDSU has a lot of options, *playing St. Thomas and/or Bemidji isnt one of them. *
*

Playing Mankato is, though. And they are worse than Bemidji and may be worse than St. Thomas.

WYOBISONMAN
12-18-2003, 06:25 PM
Mankato doesn't do a lot for me either, but it is a game in a year that is looking like getting home games is a challenge.

Bison_Kent
12-18-2003, 08:29 PM
From what I have heard, that this up coming year counts as a DII team against I-AA competition and as a I-AA against DII teams. With this, NDSU is probably lucky to get any teams that want to play us.

Bisonfan1234
12-18-2003, 09:11 PM
From what I have heard, that this up coming year counts as a DII team against I-AA competition and as a I-AA against DII teams. *With this, NDSU is probably lucky to get any teams that want to play us. *



Yeah, we must have had to bed on our hands and knees for Mankato to play us.

Obviously teams will want to play us and this Mankato crap is nonsense. Kick them off the schedule...id rather see a Freshman O v Freshman D game than that.

JBB
12-19-2003, 01:00 AM
Mankato has been on the schedule for the past 20 yrs. Suddenly, in our transition year, when we still contribute to D2, The D2 Manakto Mavericks arent good enough? The suck and every other team in the formally great NCC play them too. Bring em on. I love a great Mankato game.

WYOBISONMAN
12-19-2003, 03:02 AM
Check out this link on CNN.COM. The Gov. has declared a fiscal emergency and part of his action was to cut the Cal. State Univ. system budgets. Not good news for that hefty old Dorothy and her floundering school.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/12/18/fiscal.crisis.ap/index.html

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 12:59 PM
Yeah, it's a good thing the majority of sports money at Sac is gained by gate receipts, ASI money and NCAA payouts. This budget cutting is old news. At least California has an economy, unlike No. Dakota. ::)

BisonMav
12-19-2003, 01:20 PM
Yeah, it's a good thing the majority of sports money at Sac is gained by gate receipts, ASI money and NCAA payouts. This budget cutting is old news. At least California has an economy, unlike No. Dakota. *::)

I am not being smackish, but what numbers does Sac St get for attendance for their sports programs in Division I? I think NDSU gets well over 100,000 for football and basketball.

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 02:26 PM
"I think NDSU gets well over 100,000 for football and basketball. "

You get the entire State of North Dakota to attend? Wow! That certainly gives you credibility. Alaska-Anchorage has people attend their games too, doesn't mean I want them in my conference.

BisonMav
12-19-2003, 02:34 PM
"I think NDSU gets well over 100,000 for football and basketball. "

You get the entire State of North Dakota to attend? Wow! That certainly gives you credibility. Alaska-Anchorage has people attend their games too, doesn't mean I want them in my conference.
Actually I attend games from the Twin Cities, as do many other fans and alumni. NDSU probably has more season ticket holders from the Twin Cities than Sac St has total.

Former_Hitman
12-19-2003, 02:40 PM
"I think NDSU gets well over 100,000 for football and basketball. "

You get the entire State of North Dakota to attend? Wow! That certainly gives you credibility. Alaska-Anchorage has people attend their games too, doesn't mean I want them in my conference.

Come on now! Talking down on North Dakota seems harsh. You need to be a tough SOB to live here. It's not all peaches and palm trees like where you live.

Yeah, we have a small population. Yeah, most of the land is farmland. However, North Dakota loves football and will support the game and their team!!

Although, I would rather live here and learn to be a hard ass worker and dominate the work force when I leave this area.

Businesses love to hire Midwest People.

However, I do miss Mountains!!!

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 03:17 PM
Ummm, there are not too many palm trees in Northern California. Lot of peaches though. Sac State's campus is built in an old commercial peach orchard ya know. Also, during the '49 gold rush, Jedediah Smith supposedly buried a large cache of gold during his early days as a prospector. Sutter's Mill, where they discovered gold in 1849, is just up the American River from campus.

Like in Texas, we don't all ride our horses to school and there is not tumble weed blowing through the streets. Sacramento has mountain views and tall, green douglas firs, redwoods and oaks. Sacramento is known as the 'Arbor city'.

Former_Hitman
12-19-2003, 03:54 PM
There are some palm trees, but as you said not a lot.

Thanks for the history, Cat Daddy.

I have never seen the Movie, however please revert to the movie "Fargo". Thank you

Unless someone else has better knowledge of our history????

Texas_Jacks_Fan
12-19-2003, 03:57 PM
Sac State,
I spend a great deal of time in California and the words I hear to describe Sacramento is "Cow Town" maybe thats where you came up with such an original phase to describe the Dakotas. and as far as Alaska-Anchorage is concerned I understand why you wouldnt want to play them they would hand you another loss in your 1300 seat Hornet Gym.
Time to take the horse to work, I live in Texas you know...

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 04:25 PM
I grew up in Texas-feeble attempt at smack.

Cow town? You have the bovine as your mascot!

http://www.csus.edu/images/slideshow/guywest.jpg

Former_Hitman
12-19-2003, 04:27 PM
Well, I need to leave for work.

My snowmobile is all warmed up now.

Hey, Sac-State we're beyond dog sleds here!!

JBB
12-19-2003, 04:28 PM
Wow!! you guys have a bridge? ::)

Texas_Jacks_Fan
12-19-2003, 04:30 PM
No sac state I have a rabbit for my mascot, a big, fast one with long pointy teeth. Lets not get into mascots... yours is an insect.

IowaBison
12-19-2003, 04:32 PM
No, Sac Cat we have a bison, not a bovine, for a mascot.

BisonMav
12-19-2003, 04:38 PM
We use Pam for cooking ;D
http://www.kidzworld.com/img/upload/article/a2580i0_zow.jpg

Pam Scam
In November 2002, four defensive linemen with the Sacramento State Hornets football team sprayed the non-stick cooking spray, PAM, onto their jerseys during a game against Montana. The linemen thought this scam would allow them to slip past Montana's offensive line. The plan never worked. Not only did Sacramento lose the football game, the cheating linemen also got busted after a photographer took a picture of the players spraying themselves with PAM on the sidelines.

Former_Hitman
12-19-2003, 04:43 PM
I remembered that!

Good work BisonMav!

Maybe, they should use Crisco at Sac State.

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 05:12 PM
Wow!! you guys have a bridge? ::)

An exact replica of the Golden Gate. As you can see in the distance there is boocoo skiing up in those mountains. Want to catch a Sockeye or Cutthroat Salmon, just toss a line into the American while you are having lunch at the alumni grove along the historic American River. I guess it is better than a statue of a cow.

"My snowmobile is all warmed up now."

The exact reason why the Sky didn't invite you. If you left now you might make it to the track event next Spring being held in Sactown.

'Insect' not my first choice either. But a 'Rabbit' come on, at least a Hornet has the ability to defend itself. Rabbits 'run' away from danger. Major league teams seem to think the Hornet does just well as a mascot.

'Pam' oh, that hurts! Is that the best you could do? That Pam got us on Leno, ESPN SportsCenter, etc. What has NDSU or even North Dakota been mentioned for? Hmmm, missile silo's and the historical marker where George Armstrong Custer took a shit. Whooohoooo.

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 05:13 PM
Who is Sac Cat? ???

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 05:16 PM
Pam Scam
"In November 2002, four defensive linemen with the Sacramento State Hornets football team sprayed the non-stick cooking spray, PAM, onto their jerseys during a game against Montana. The linemen thought this scam would allow them to slip past Montana's offensive line. The plan never worked. Not only did Sacramento lose the football game, the cheating linemen also got busted after a photographer took a picture of the players spraying themselves with PAM on the sidelines. "

You gotta keep those Montana boys honest ya know. And the Griz barely won the game, on the last play if I recall.

JBB
12-19-2003, 05:35 PM
An exact replaca of the Golden Gate? Couldnt you design your own bridge or is it a theme? Is Sacramento an exact repleca of San Fransisco?

somebison
12-19-2003, 05:45 PM
"He was supposed to be a temp, try to win a few games and keep the players out of the police blotter. Then move along.
That was the script handed to 40-year-old Don Newman last September 22 when Arizona State University made him coach of the Sun Devils men's basketball team.

Well, not exactly coach.
Athletic director Kevin White couldn't find a real coach. None of the big names would come to rescue ASU's pitiful program on such short notice. So, by default, White named Newman "interim" coach.

Newman gladly accepted the job. Nothing could be worse than his previous head-coaching job at California State University-Sacramento."

Phoenix New Times, March 12, 1998

Sac_State
12-19-2003, 05:51 PM
It was the 'worst' coaching job because he 'sucked'. Had he won, it would have been the 'best' coaching job.

Must be really horrible, somebody is making a living being the coach and making the Big Sky tournament last year, unlike the conference-less NDSU Bovines.

89rabbit
12-19-2003, 07:00 PM
At least NDSU and SDSU don't play in high school gyms. Maybe you should have spent some money on basketball rather then crew, just a thought.

Former_Hitman
12-19-2003, 07:24 PM
Sac-State,

If we play you next year or in 10 years.

It will be the largest crowd you've seen.

tony
12-19-2003, 08:16 PM
Getting a little smacky in here :)

Hey, Sac-State, here's one great thing about Sacramento - direct flights from a lot of different hubs. If only Fargo had more flights from hubs other than Minneapolis... arg.

WYOBISONMAN
12-19-2003, 08:18 PM
Tony......I would never be a part of a smack thread..... ;)

Bison_Kent
12-19-2003, 08:19 PM
Tony,

I know it isn't great but Fargo has United flights going to Denver and Chicago and as well as the Northwest flights to Minneapolis.

I have flown to Fargo using all three hubs and actually think the United ones are just as good as the NW.

WYOBISONMAN
12-19-2003, 08:39 PM
That is why I just don't by that argument that access to Fargo is difficult....hell, try being from Williston...that is difficult access!

tony
12-19-2003, 08:46 PM
Bison_Kent, wow that's cool! Denver to Fargo non-stop! Maybe Wanless will have to pull out his crayons and redo his flight time calculation for Sacramento to Fargo.

WyoBisonMan, as you can see, I would never talk smack either

Sac_State
12-31-2003, 01:39 PM
Sac-State,

If we play you next year or in 10 years.

It will be the largest crowd you've seen. *

Like the 42,000 at Oregon State and the 21,458 at CSUS? That away game will be the biggest NDSU ever sees and the home attendance of 21,458 is bigger than your dome can hold. ::)

How about 23,000+, every day, for ten straight days, when the Olympic Trials were held at CSUS. Oh, yeah, our facilities are sooooo bad that the World Olympic Committee decided to house, and compete on a WORLD stage using the CSUS athletic facilities.

The facilities since then have received another $2M in upgrades, with another $48M on the drawing boards. :o

What large crowd are you referring too?

Bison_Kent
12-31-2003, 02:18 PM
We could careless about track and field. This is a football topic. Our top HOME attendence mark is 19,020 against UND in 2000. Our top ROAD atttendence was most likely the Montana game last year with over 23,000 there.

NDSU has averaged no less then 11,000 per home game in the past 10 years. I am sure Sac State can not compare with these numbers.

So much for a road game. When NDSU schedules Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa State, or any other I-A team, there will be well over 50,000 at any of these sites. That arguement holds very little with me.

Sac_State
01-05-2004, 04:14 PM
I think you will be hard pressed to play a top IA team anytime soon. Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas etc. have their schedules pretty much in cement ten years from now. Besides, NDSU et al, will not be an 'official' IAA team until another four years of provisional. I guarantee, no IA school is going to schedule a D2 school. NDSU will play the MAC, WAC and Sun Belt bottom feeders for its IA opponents. All three IA conferences have members barely making the new IA requirements.

JBB
01-05-2004, 05:08 PM
Those would be good games for us, especially schools like Wyoming and Idaho. I think we are doing a pretty good job of starting at the bottom. Some established DI-AA schools are already stepping up and will continue to do so. We are also lucky to be joining some great programs making the move. Cooperation between us seems high. In the coming years it would be great to play everyone in the BSC. We dont have to be in the same conference to be good competition.

IowaBison
01-05-2004, 05:46 PM
GT has been in talks with Iowa State and Minnesota and I am confident that they would play us every once in while.

Minnesota plays UL-Monroe every year, why not play us every other year?

Sac_State
01-05-2004, 06:05 PM
UL-Monroe is a IA classified team. Maybe not for long though.

To be bowl eligible, a IA team must have 6 wins against IA competition. Then the RPI factor kicks in. I am sure Minnesota gets some points for playing another IA team, less points for a IAA and none for a D2 team.

A team like Minnesota has much MORE to lose by playing NDSU and perhaps losing, then they gain by winning against a 'given' opponent.

Sac played Oregon State last year and UTEP in '02, they are also scheduled to play Nevada and San Diego State in 2004. In 2005, Sac plays San Diego again and adds San Jose State. *Other than the paycheck and the experience, 'bodybag' games can either be good or a triage ward. Sac surprised two IA teams in the early 90's, winning at UOP and Fullerton State, both programs are now extinct, so the victory was bittersweet.

I could definately see NDSU playing Idaho, Hawai'i, Wyoming and Nevada regularly like Sac, but only regularly when you are not provisional.

It will be a tough four years.

89rabbit
01-05-2004, 06:41 PM
UC-Davis is playing Stanford, and they are still provisional.

http://ucdavisaggies.ocsn.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/120903aaa.html

UC Davis Football To Play Stanford Cardinal In 2005
Game marks Aggies first against a Division I-A foe since facing Idaho in 1997

*

*Printer-Friendly Format

*E-mail this article

Dec. 9, 2003

DAVIS, Calif. - The UC Davis football team, currently in a transition from NCAA Division II to Division I-AA status, will travel to play Stanford on Sept. 17, 2005 at Stanford Stadium, Director of Athletics Greg Warzecka announced on Tuesday.

The teams got a taste of competition against each other this past summer, participating in a combined practice and subsequent controlled scrimmage at Stanford in late August.

"Being able to add Stanford to our schedule shows the direction the program is headed," said UC Davis head coach Bob Biggs. "With the young players we are bringing in, this gives them a taste of Division I football at the top level. It also allows us to test the waters and develop the program so we are ready for a shot at the Division I-AA playoffs in 2007."

The 2005 game is the Aggie program's first against a Division I-A foe since facing Idaho in a 44-14 loss in 1997. UC Davis and Stanford have met once before in football with the Cardinal winning 59-0 in 1932. The Aggies have never played a team while it was a member of the Pacific-10 Conference, although UC Davis has faced Arizona, Arizona State, Oregon State, UC Berkeley and UCLA - in addition to Stanford - in its history but none since 1940.


"We're excited and honored to schedule a football game against an institution renowned for academic and athletic excellence like Stanford University," said Warzecka. "Our student-athletes will benefit greatly from the experience of playing Stanford in a year when the team is not eligible for NCAA Championship competition."

Stanford Athletics Director Ted Leland echoed Warzecka's thoughts.

"UC Davis combines a tradition of excellence in football with outstanding academics and we are excited to pair our two football programs together in 2005," said Leland. "We're looking forward to hosting UC Davis, its fans and alums in a game that will have great appeal in the Bay Area and Northern California."

UC Davis, which will count as a Division I-AA team on opponents' strength-of-schedules beginning next season, just finished its first season in reclassification to I-AA. The Aggies finished 6-4 overall, completing their 34th straight winning season.

Sac_State
01-05-2004, 07:45 PM
The last sentence says that the game will count as IAA and not provisional or D2 for RPI points. San Jose State canceled the standing game between the two schools, making the Stanford game with davis possible, and maybe next year is a year that allows for 12 games, in which case Stanford isn't being penalized for playing davis. As it is, football attendance in general in N. California sucks for even the PAC10, so getting a local club to play will only help attendance.

SJSU supposedly dropped Stanford to make way for their IA attendance saving game against Grambling. SJSU had something like 33,000+ for the Grambling band.

I didn't say it is impossible, just don't think you can schedule Kansas every year as a home-home. We played OSU this year, so an early open date with a IA regional adversary is possible for NDSU.

JBB
01-05-2004, 08:08 PM
Our situation sounds a lot like Davis. We played most of the regional DIA teams including the Gophers, Wisconsin, Iowa etc, but it was in the 40s or earlier. There was far less offical distinction but the difference was definately there. The games were all on the road. We lost most, if not all, to larger, faster teams with a lot more depth. Same situation we have now.

89rabbit
01-05-2004, 09:07 PM
I have made this point before, but I will make it again. I-AA schools best chance to play a I-A is with that I-A team does not need the win to be bowl eligable. This is why Kansas State usually plays two I-AA teams each season (this season McNeese State and UMass) and why Stanford is playing UC-Davis. They are just looking for an extra home game to up their revenue. Therefor the Minnesotas and Nebraskas of the world offer a better shot then a marginal I-A. The marginal I-A must take into account a whole host of factors before they decide to play a I-AA, because they need the win to count.