Big Sky expansion [Archive] - Bisonville Forums

Sac_State

07-20-2004, 02:51 PM

Looks like you guys might have another shot...

Big Sky commissioner Doug Fullerton said he doesn't think the league "has ever been healthier," in his address to the media, coaches and players on Monday morning

Fullerton said the league presidents will meet Aug. 9 and expansion will once again be explored.

"It will be intense on the expansion issue," he said. "We've done a lot of internal investigating. We'll look at all schools west of Minneapolis."

North Dakota State, South Dakota State and Northern Colorado have all made the jump from Division II to I-AA and joined the newly formed Great West football Conference, along with Southern Utah, Cal Poly and UC Davis.

Fullerton said a 12-team Big Sky would be too large and there would be no advantage to holding a conference championship game prior to the playoffs.

somebison

07-20-2004, 04:02 PM

Do you have a link?

89rabbit

07-20-2004, 04:14 PM

Here you go.

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2004/07/20/sports/sports01.txt?session=6Ig7cEC48Y7f8AAxkuDvG3VBRe

JBB

07-20-2004, 05:20 PM

Interesting. *As far as I know the only 3 schools west of Mnpls are NDSU, SDSU and UNC. Southern Utah might be a possibility too. I wonder if they would go to 11? *

If they are interested, this might be the only chance for und* to make the move with a decent chance at a conference. *I wouldnt be suprised, as obnoxious as roger thomas is about the issue , if he had a complete turn around real soon. *I have a feeling his personal axe grinding with NDSU have left him/them on the outside looking in.

Bison_Kent

07-20-2004, 06:11 PM

The August meetings will be very interesting to know what happens. *For some reason, I always thought NDSU and SDSU would join the Big Sky. *I did a little comparison a few months ago on the four possible expansion schools. *

--If geography is the number one reason, Southern Utah will be picked. *They are close to Northern Arizona and would make for a good travel partner. *NDSU, SDSU, and in-deed Northern Colorado are no closer then 500 miles from any current Big Sky member. *(Greeley is closest to Ogden, UT--Weber State and is 500 miles away.)

--If facilities are what the Big Sky is looking for NDSU is the best, with the FargoDome and improvements planned for the BSA. *SDSU and UNC would be likely tied as close seconds. *SDSU is improving Frost Arena (basketball) but needs also to improve the football facilities. *UNC has a realitively new football stadium but needs to improve the basketball facilities. * *

--If air travel is the key, NDSU is the only one of the four with an international airport so NDSU wins this catagory. *SDSU and Northern Colorado are roughly an hour away from an airport and Southern Utah, I think is almost two hours away from one.

--Sports offered at each university are roughly the same and would fit into the Big Sky mold. *NDSU would have to add men's and women's tennis and most would have to find other homes for baseball and wrestling. *

--If being a full division I member is the catagory, Southern Utah is the only school that fits so it wins by default. *

--If two schools are wanted, NDSU and SDSU would be the winners as they would make terrific travel partners. *Southern Utah would be a good Northern Arizona travel partner and really UNC would not have close team next to them. *

--If school athletic budgets are chosen, NDSU would be the choice. *NDSU currently has the largest of the four schools. *

--If athletic attendence is the area choosen, NDSU and SDSU would be the winners. *NDSU would be a top football draw and SDSU would be a top basketball draw. *

With my somewhat biased observations, I think NDSU and SDSU will be the next two members of the Big Sky.

Lets just see how it plays out.
*

Sac_State

07-20-2004, 06:45 PM

And how it effects the GWFC.

Before it even starts the league (GWFC) could be dead.

I think if any additions are made, sans S.Utah, look for Sac to really start grinding about a different league. I am sure Sac, PSU and EWU being on the other side of the border of the proposed conference will have issues with travel and fan interest.

Sac is already complaining about playing programs the Sac community has no interest in, with all due respect adding the 4 out of state GWFC teams will do nothing the entice the Sac community to attend more games. Unfortunately, Sacramento is a pro sports town and they want all their sports at the highest level.

Adding these 4 schools might prompt Sac to act sooner than later on this Destinantion 2010 mantra.

Yes, the 4 GWFC teams are fine I-AA programs and they have something to bring the Sky, it's just that Sac and PSU are urban based universities and the teams they play will have to be 'recognized' by the public to fill the stands. Adding schools two time zones away is not going to cut it. With all due respect.

And where does that leave Davis and Poly, as independents?

89rabbit

07-20-2004, 06:57 PM

Kent,

Good break down, although I have to take issue with a couple of things. *SDSU should not be tied with UNC for facilities. *Although UNC has a newer stadium it is also very small it only holds 6,500. *Admittedly Coughlin needs some upgrades, but it seats 16,000. *Frost kills UNC's basketball venue so I say SDSU is a strong second.

I also think the Airport issue is up for grabs. *Although Joe Foss field in Sioux Falls is not an "international airport" *it is served by more Airlines (Northwest, American, United, Delta, Allegiant Air) with two "low cost" providers being rumored to start flying there soon (America West out of Phoenix, and another), more Cities (Chicago, Minneapolis, Cincinnati, Denver, Las Vegas) then Fargo. *UNC could also claim Denver.

One key factor that everyone always forgets when they talk about Big Sky membership is that UNC doesn't want to be in the Big Sky. Baseball is very important to the Bears and their first choice is the Mid-Con. So it really comes down to NDSU, SDSU, and SUU.

With all that being said it really dosen't change anything and I hope you are right about the outcome! *;)

Go State!

Bisonfan1234

07-20-2004, 08:20 PM

I've heard that the Big West is looking into reopening football.

That might also influence the decision.

Sac_State

07-20-2004, 08:43 PM

Who did you hear that from? Those schools won't bring back football just for Davis and Poly. The CSU's not playing football, will never play football again, no state money.

They have been discussing that rumor since the blackout of '41.

Bisonfan1234

07-20-2004, 09:02 PM

I don't know, somewhere.

I'd like to see the Beach and Fullerton use some of their baseball money to possibly jump start the football programs.

NDSU_grad

07-20-2004, 10:14 PM

That's interesting. How about this scenario. The two Dakota schools join, prompting Sac to leave. The Sky then adds Southern Utah to have a travel partner for Northern Arizona. I do think it is unfortunate that we would basically be leaving UNC, Cal-Poly, and UC-Davis without a league for football (if this scenario comes to fruition), but it is a lot easier to be an independent for football than any other sport.

Bisonfan1234

07-20-2004, 10:21 PM

It would still be CSU-S, UC-D, UNC, and CSPU-SLO.

I think all of those could get in or are in the Big West. Then the Big West brings back football, everything works.

WYOBISONMAN

07-20-2004, 10:27 PM

I suspect that long term stability will be found through a conference that has the California schools in it plus Portland State. The Dakotas will be in the Sky.

roadwarrior

07-20-2004, 11:01 PM

We'll look at all schools west of Minneapolis.

This statement by Fullerton is a huge change from what he has said in the past.

Bison_Kent

07-20-2004, 11:10 PM

It is a change from Fullerton and I think (since I have talked to the man), he was really counting on Idaho not being accepted into the WAC. Losing your number one expansion team may be the reason for his new take.

89Rabbit,

I will agree that SDSU has more capacity but UNC stadium is nicer for football. With upgrades to Coughlin, SDSU would be better.

As far as airports go, as long as a city has an airport a team can fly to it. Teams will be taking charter plans (not commercial airlines in most cases). Fargo wins with its closeness to from the airport to NDSU. With both SDSU and UNC, a team will have to travel an hour to get to their hotel and/or playing field from the closest airport so I would rate them both as a tie for second.

Bisonfan1234

07-20-2004, 11:10 PM

I suspect that long term stability will be found through a conference that has the California schools in it plus Portland State. *The Dakotas will be in the Sky.

Could you elaborate?

You think that Both CSU-S and CSPU-SLO will join the Sky as well?

Bison_Kent

07-21-2004, 12:12 AM

The California schools will not join the Big Sky (most likely) because they can have a "bus-league" to them selves in the Big West. UC Davis and Cal Poly are the exceptions to the rule in the Big West.

I highly doubt that they would want to move out of a situation where travel is less and rivalries are more prevalent for the opposite but that is just my take.

Sac_State

07-21-2004, 01:36 PM

I don't know, somewhere.

I'd like to see the Beach and Fullerton use some of their baseball money to possibly jump start the football programs.

Good luck, those programs will horde any and all money they can in cash strapped California. You think they would jeopardize the national exposure they receive w/baseball to start a I-AA football program that would require at least $2M to start. LB does not have a football stadium.

Bisonfan1234

07-21-2004, 04:46 PM

LB does not have a football stadium.

There are literally tons of stadiums in the area.

If the program was non scholarship, all you would need is new equipment and a staff.

Sac_State

07-21-2004, 04:52 PM

And start the beginning of the end again?

That is part of the problem, many Cali schools have identity problems. Playing off campus with no schollies, might as well just play intramural football.

Fullerton has a nice 12K stadium, but it has been configured for, aghast! soccer.

It would flop before it even got started.

bisononce

07-21-2004, 05:31 PM

Bisonfan1234

07-21-2004, 06:49 PM

I believe the problem is that soccer fields (esp. international fields) are quite a bit wider than football fields.

jackmd

07-21-2004, 08:02 PM

Somebody help me re: soccer v. football. Why don't we see more combo football and soccer venues. That is, change out goal systems, lines on the field etc. Is the soccer configuration too big for the typical football floor?

Dog days of summer and college sports, we are talking about soccer fields!!

Not sure size is that big of an issue. We all know a FB field is 120 yards long and about 56.5 yards wide (160 feet to be exact).

Soccer fields are variable but for NCAA purposes a field must be 110-120 yards long and 65-80 yards wide.

Not that different. I suspect it has more to do with field conditions, markings, etc... They don't play soccer on field turf, do they?

Bison7925

07-21-2004, 09:00 PM

Not that different. *I suspect it has more to do with field conditions, markings, etc... *They don't play soccer on field turf, do they?

Jack,

How could you open this can of worms? ;D

Yuo know that 1234 will have to get involved now >:(

Bisonfan1234

07-21-2004, 09:35 PM

They don't play soccer on field turf, do they?

All REAL sports can be played on field turf.

WYOBISONMAN

07-21-2004, 09:36 PM

Oh shit!?!?!?

TheBisonator

07-22-2004, 12:10 AM

All REAL sports can be played on field turf.

Basketball's not a real sport?? Oh man, you're gonna get it now... ;D ;D ;D

Bisonguy

07-22-2004, 12:35 AM

Basketball's not a real sport?? Oh man, you're gonna get it now... ;D ;D ;D

Would that mean that bocce is a "real sport"?- http://www.fieldturf.com/index.cfm?pageView=readSpecialFeature&featureID=65 &sportPage=golf

somebison

07-22-2004, 12:40 AM

They don't play soccer on field turf, do they?

They do

Bisonfan1234

07-22-2004, 01:44 AM

Basketball's not a real sport?? Oh man, you're gonna get it now... ;D ;D ;D

The basic concept of basketball could be realized just as easily on fieldturf. The ball might not bounce as well, but it's a ground based game just the same.

In fact, I'd love to see a combination of handball and basketball (still have to shoot at a hoop, but you don't have to dribble) on a larger, turf field/court.

The only REAL sports are ground based and require no specialized footware to play (cleats are not specialized footware because you could take them off and lose minimal performance).

Tatanka

07-22-2004, 04:26 AM

The basic concept of basketball could be realized just as easily on fieldturf. The ball might not bounce as well, but it's a ground based game just the same.

In fact, I'd love to see a combination of handball and basketball (still have to shoot at a hoop, but you don't have to dribble) on a larger, turf field/court.

The only REAL sports are ground based and require no specialized footware to play (cleats are not specialized footware because you could take them off and lose minimal performance).
See, children, just say no to crack. Just say no. :P

BisonFan

07-22-2004, 05:08 AM

MY OH MY....How the discussion digresses...What happened to discussing Big Sky Expansion?

Bison_Kent

07-22-2004, 11:12 AM

Lets get back on topic. Here was a Forum AP release. The quote was a little different from Fullerton. It states the four possible expansion canidates.

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=65054&section=Sports

bisonranch

07-23-2004, 01:07 AM

Big Sky is my choice, but trying to beat UM and MSU every year to win the conference is a big task especially with the Griz's tradition. Although UC Davis and UNC could prove just as tough in the GWFC.

BisonInTexas

07-23-2004, 01:27 AM

Big Sky is my choice, but trying to beat UM and MSU every year to win the conference is a big task especially with the Griz's tradition. *Although UC Davis and UNC could prove just as tough in the GWFC. *

"Bring on the Competition!"

The Big Sky is my choice too. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Craig

Bisonguy

07-23-2004, 01:31 AM

Big Sky is my choice, but trying to beat UM and MSU every year to win the conference is a big task especially with the Griz's tradition. *Although UC Davis and UNC could prove just as tough in the GWFC. *

NDSU has a three game winning streak against Montana.

bisonranch

07-23-2004, 01:40 AM

NDSU has a three game winning streak against Montana.

I love pointing out that fact to Montana people I know. *Problem is, now they're even more determined to prove it's a fluke. *Hopefully we can add to the streak and really raddle the bear cage. *

Bisonfan1234

07-23-2004, 01:57 AM

By the time we play them again, we'll have so many talented Chicago players, they won't know what hit them.

bballfan

07-24-2004, 12:07 AM

--If facilities are what the Big Sky is looking for NDSU is the best, with the FargoDome and improvements planned for the BSA. SDSU and UNC would be likely tied as close seconds. SDSU is improving Frost Arena (basketball) but needs also to improve the football facilities. UNC has a realitively new football stadium but needs to improve the basketball facilities.

HAHAHA... Yeah, NDSU is soooo much better. The fargo dome is nice, but the BSA, wow, that place is terrible. Its seriously 10 times the embarrasment that Coughlin is to SDSU. Lets look at it from a future perspective, how much to upgrade coughlin? I'll say 3-4 million and it will be one of the best in DI-AA, especially with the new wellness center SDSU is building. How much for the BSA... oh, you can't imo because its way to terrible for D-I bball. When I think of D-I bball I don't think of highschool arena's like NDSU's. I don't care if they put 10 million into that place its going to be an undersized dump. Its also going to be obvious to conferences that NDSU doesn't really care, as they are only modifying the BSA, and don't have any plans to build a facility. Sorry guys, but I'd say NDSU is only tied with SDSU for facilities. Take a look at some of the new frost pictures...

http://www3.sdstate.edu/Athletics/VarsitySports/MensBasketball/FrostArena/Index.cfm

Bisonfan1234

07-24-2004, 12:24 AM

HAHAHA... Yeah, NDSU is soooo much better. *The fargo dome is nice, but the BSA, wow, that place is terrible. *Its seriously 10 times the embarrasment that Coughlin is to SDSU. *Lets look at it from a future perspective, how much to upgrade coughlin? *I'll say 3-4 million and it will be one of the best in DI-AA, especially with the new wellness center SDSU is building. *How much for the BSA... oh, you can't imo because its way to terrible for D-I bball. *When I think of D-I bball I don't think of highschool arena's like NDSU's. *I don't care if they put 10 million into that place its going to be an undersized dump. *Its also going to be obvious to conferences that NDSU doesn't really care, as they are only modifying the BSA, and don't have any plans to build a facility. *Sorry guys, but I'd say NDSU is only tied with SDSU for facilities. *Take a look at some of the new frost pictures...

http://www3.sdstate.edu/Athletics/VarsitySports/MensBasketball/FrostArena/Index.cfm * * * * * *

NDSU is a football school. Football pays the bills and fb is all anyone cares about.

With that said, bball will not receive the kind of support fb has or have the success that fb has had until they get a new bball only facility.

Bisonguy

07-24-2004, 12:40 AM

bisonranch

07-24-2004, 02:28 AM

The renovation of the BSA is only a short term plan not? Isn't the long range goal to continue fundraising and build a new arena? I thought I read it in the Forum a while back.

Bisonguy

07-24-2004, 02:43 AM

Short term in the sense of 10-20 years, from what I remember.

Maybe the Fargodome will want to build a smaller event arena that would be the perfect size for basketball in the near future.

bisonranch

07-24-2004, 02:54 AM

They tried that in '00. Taxpayers voted it down but it was being dubbed as a hockey arena also. Probably a good thing, as I'm sure when a new area does get built, it will be bigger and better than anything there were going to build in '00 since all the DI sports will be so popular.

JBB

07-24-2004, 03:28 AM

All REAL sports can be played on field turf.

Thats a joke everybody....Im sure it is. *I laughed. *Its funny.

I think Montana has to travel here if they want to play the BISON. After all we traveled there and won. I would travel again though as part of a home home in consecutive yrs. One or the other Montana school should be on the schedule next year, I hope.

The BSC would be a tougher football conference than the old NCC. The GWFC is too. No matter what happens we will be seeing better sports and the best teams NDSU has ever fielded in all sports except probably wrestling.

BISON_PRIDE

07-24-2004, 04:42 AM

We have to approach the Big Sky expansion as a great opportunity if given the chance. *It would solve a lot of problems with the other sports, and It would give us built in rivals with Montana, MSU, and SDSU(providing they take us both, which they will). *The other Big Sky teams would be at least as important as playing the Cali. teams in the Great West. * Northern Col. would never be as big a rivalry as the Montana schools, regardless if we win or lose.

I live in Grand Forks (have pity) and when we beat Montana last year everyone there was talking about the game the next day. *The Grand Forks Herald even ran an editorial on how the UND needs to step up the competition. *Trust me Sioux boosters would never still still if the Bison find success at DI. * Sorry no room in the Big Sky UND :'(

The Great West is a very good football conference but an opportunity at the Big Sky would solidify our place in Division 1 and would be too good to pass up, for both NDSU and SDSU. *Either way it's all good.

bballfan

07-24-2004, 05:11 PM

bballfan,

wtf? Frost only holds 1,000 more fans in it's OLD configuration, before the seat back chairs were installed than the BSA. The BSA needs work, but it's part of the current fundraising campaign. Where's the money or plan for Coughlin?

Coughlin would need at least $10 million for improvements to be a decent I-AA stadium. The videoboards/scoreboards at the Fargodome were in excess of $4 million. To be one of the BEST stadiums in I-AA, it would cost at least $40 million (not including the cost of blowing up Coughlin)

How did you come up with 40 million? That's bull. The fargo dome (one of the best in D-IAA only) costs 50 million new, but to only modify coughlin is going to cost 40? I doubt it. I might give you 10 million to make it one of the best. How about this:

Field turf: 2-3 million

Scoreboard/video: 3 million (probably not going to put four scoreboards in an outdoor stadium, with no side seating, probably 1 or 2)

Revamping old grandstands/new concessions/bathrooms/ new grandstand on other side:
5-6 million.

There's no way in hell that costs 40 million dollars.

The BSA needs work, but it's part of the current fundraising campaign. Where's the money or plan for Coughlin?

No the BSA needs to be replaced, not worked on. Frost arena cost around 16 million when it was first built, not including improvements. The bison can't raise the money right now for a D-I arena that they deserve. The advantage the coughlin has is that it can be done in phases, so SDSU doesn't have to come up with all the money for it immediately. Trust me, theres a plan for coughlin, I think you'll see improvements starting to occur after this coming season, probably in the form of video boards and new locker rooms.

Bisonguy

07-24-2004, 05:57 PM

bballfan,

Yes, the Fargodome cost $48 million to build in 1992. It's now 2004. For a cost estimate of a newer-built indoor stadium (albeit smaller, and made of tin instead of more costly brick) look at the Alerus Center in Grand Forks. Nearly twice the cost of the Fargodome for an infereior product.

You're the one that stated Coughlin could be one of the best stadiums in I-AA for only $3-4 million (even at ten million that's a huge stretch). Do you even know what the stadiums in I-AA are like? I would put nearly all the Ivies, SWAC, Montana, McNeese, Georgia Southern, Delaware, and a whole bunch of other teams stadiums in front of anything that SDSU could build. SDSU could build one of the top 50 stadiums in I-AA for under $10 million. To be one of the best, that's going to take a lot more money. *::)

Trust me, there will be a new home for Bison BB. It just makes more sense financially to renovate the BSA currently. The subject of a small event arena attached to the Fargodome will probably come up again.

Bisonfan1234

07-24-2004, 06:42 PM

Neither of you have any idea what it would cost. You don't work in construction and you can't even agree on what exactly needs to be done.

Just shut up.

BisonInTexas

07-24-2004, 06:58 PM

Neither of you have any idea what it would cost. You don't work in construction and you can't even agree on what exactly needs to be done.

Just shut up.

Now that's what I call the pot calling the kettle black...

;D

Bisonguy

07-24-2004, 07:03 PM

Now that's what I call the pot calling the kettle black...

;D

My vote for understatement of the year ;D ;D

1234,

You don't know what industry I work in. Think before you speak.

BisonFan

07-24-2004, 07:35 PM

My vote for understatement of the year *;D ;D

1234,

You don't know what industry I work in. Think before you speak.

Is that possible for him to do?

BisonMav

07-24-2004, 09:38 PM

I am at the point that the Big Sky would be good, but I am not getting my hopes up. *NDSU still may be a year or two away from joining a conference. *The Bison still have this first year of DI sports to look forward to. *The teams have schools from all over the country on their schedules. *I am looking forward to seeing how NDSU does against those schools. *A conference will be there eventually, just have to have patience.

WYOBISONMAN

07-25-2004, 02:45 PM

I actually think that the football competition in the GWC will be tougher than the Big Sky. *Still, the Big Sky is the best option as it gives almost all sports a home and regional rivals. *The games against the Montana schools will be bigger rivals than the SDSU game because of the natural rivalry that exists between ND and Montana. * That rivalry just isn't there with any other state.

We just have to wait until August and see what happens. After the August expansion meeting we may have a clearer picture of how this shakes out.

Bisonfan1234

07-25-2004, 04:48 PM

because of the natural rivalry that exists between ND and Montana.

Sorry, you don't just get to throw this out there and have it be automatically true.

What the hell are you talking about? Natural rivalry?

Wait, wait, you can't possibly be referring to that stupid, completely irrelevent, small, high school football game where we get our asses kicked every year, can you? Because that really doesn't mean anything to anyone anywhere.

WYOBISONMAN

07-25-2004, 06:27 PM

You are not even from North Dakota, so I would doubt that you get it......Most Minnesotan's do get it, but you are a particulary stupid individual, so I am sure you don't.

Bisonfan1234

07-25-2004, 07:03 PM

You are not even from North Dakota, so I would doubt that you get it......Most Minnesotan's do get it, but you are a particulary stupid individual, so I am sure you don't.

Why don't you post a counter argument instead of a personal attack?

You're not winning any logic contests here.

WYOBISONMAN

07-25-2004, 08:21 PM

You and logic are mutually exclusive....you prove that statement daily on here. *

You have demonstrated time and time again that you are totally ignorant about North Dakota. *If you ever did attend North Dakota State it baffles most of us on this board how you were able to remain in such a vacuum about North Dakota. *It is obvious that you understand little and care little about North Dakota or the issues that face North Dakota. *An unfortunate attitude for an alleged NDSU alumnus to have. That is why you have no credibility on this board and why most posters feel you are the leading candidate for BPAOY ;D.