Paging Indy on the end of the SDSU/USD game

[THEsocalledfan]

Indy,

I tried looking this up myself but came up blank. I'm sure you've seen the end of the USD/SDSU game. What is the official rule as to when should the clock stop on the long pass SDSU threw into the stands on 4th down? It is when it hits the stands or once clearly not playable? I still think there was likely 1 second even when it hit the stands, but what is the official rule on clock stoppage in that situation?

Thanks,

The Internet

[TransAmBison]

Indy,

I tried looking this up myself but came up blank. I'm sure you've seen the end of the USD/SDSU game. What is the official rule as to when should the clock stop on the long pass SDSU threw into the stands on 4th down? It is when it hits the stands or once clearly not playable? I still think there was likely 1 second even when it hit the stands, but what is the official rule on clock stoppage in that situation?

Thanks,

The Internet

I tuned into that game right after the Bison game...was entertaining. Two Jackrabbits ejected for targeting in one game...I don't think I've seen that before. Then USD imploding with too many players on the field...game should have been over then. I was kind of expecting SDSU to run out the back of the endzone and take a safety. Then when they did what they did and time ran out I really didn't think the refs were going to add a second back. Then the icing on the cake...SDSU players happily keeping the ball in play.

[THEsocalledfan]

I tuned into that game right after the Bison game...was entertaining. Two Jackrabbits ejected for targeting in one game...I don't think I've seen that before. Then USD imploding with too many players on the field...game should have been over then. I was kind of expecting SDSU to run out the back of the endzone and take a safety. Then when they did what they did and time ran out I really didn't think the refs were going to add a second back. Then the icing on the cake...SDSU players happily keeping the ball in play.

Yep, moronic decision by Stig, and I did think there was a second left so I was confident they'd put it back on. In fact, I texted my daughter who was there not to leave since USD should have a hail mary chance.

[ndsubison1]

I believe once it hits something. Anything. A person, ground, wall, light.

[THEsocalledfan]

I believe once it hits something. Anything. A person, ground, wall, light.

That exactly what I'm getting at, but I want the rules expert to comment. To me, there is a bit of a difference when something hits in the field of play, versus the stands....when does the clock stop? Same for all? I want to see the rule quotes.

[scottietohottie]

And indy also explain why Illinois state didn't get one play at the end of the und vs Illinois state game. If you watch the play clock and game clock there should have been 2 seconds on the clock before they snapped the ball on 4th down. Doesn't the clock stop for change of possession? Not sure how you could kneel on 4th down and run the clock out?

They called timeout with one second left but if you watch the play clock if he didn't call timeout until 1 second left it should have been a delay of game penalty.

[IndyBison]

I have only heard about the play but haven't had a chance to look for it. Technically the pass doesn't become incomplete until it touches something OOB. If it was so far OOB that it landed in the seats maybe they have a philosophy in replay to stop it when it's obviously incomplete in those situations. I'll try to look at it this afternoon and see if I can apply some rule logic to it.

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[THEsocalledfan]

I have only heard about the play but haven't had a chance to look for it. Technically the pass doesn't become incomplete until it touches something OOB. If it was so far OOB that it landed in the seats maybe they have a philosophy in replay to stop it when it's obviously incomplete in those situations. I'll try to look at it this afternoon and see if I can apply some rule logic to it.

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Yep, it landed in the seats......there was zero attempt to complete it at all, and they had a receiver in the area to avoid a intentional grounding call as I do think he was in the tackle box (100% designed to kill time). I'll be very interested in your analysis on this one.....would be a phenomenal one for the ncaa video series.

[El_Chapo]

just run backwards for a safety or run out the clock...
or just quick punt it FFS

[IndyBison]

Yep, it landed in the seats......there was zero attempt to complete it at all, and they had a receiver in the area to avoid a intentional grounding call as I do think he was in the tackle box (100% designed to kill time). I'll be very interested in your analysis on this one.....would be a phenomenal one for the ncaa video series.

If he throws it in the seats by definition there is no receiver in the area who could catch it. They would have to be outside the pocket and bring the LOS. I guess as close as the seats are in the Fargodome that wouldn't apply if they landed in the first row. But that's an unusually tight sideline.

There was an editorial change this year that if they had flagged for intentional grounding the period could be extended for an untimed down at the option of the offended team. Previously if the clock expired on a play like this you would not extend the period if the penalty included a loss of down provision. A team could intentionally ground the ball illegally but the other team wouldn't get an untimed down. It doesn't sound like that happened here because you said there was no foul and there was 1 second on the clock.

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[THEsocalledfan]

If he throws it in the seats by definition there is no receiver in the area who could catch it. They would have to be outside the pocket and bring the LOS. I guess as close as the seats are in the Fargodome that wouldn't apply if they landed in the first row. But that's an unusually tight sideline.

There was an editorial change this year that if they had flagged for intentional grounding the period could be extended for an untimed down at the option of the offended team. Previously if the clock expired on a play like this you would not extend the period if the penalty included a loss of down provision. A team could intentionally ground the ball illegally but the other team wouldn't get an untimed down. It doesn't sound like that happened here because you said there was no foul and there was 1 second on the clock.

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The dakotadome is as tight as the fargodome. No foul was called. However, the clock had expired, and replay put 1 second back on so the play failed for SDSU. My interest is, say it does not hit the seat until zero (and I do think it did hit at about 1 second), when is that play dead? A lot of SDSU fans have talked themselves into the refs screwed up putting the 1 second back on the clock since the camera view is hard to see when it hits a seat.

[Professor Chaos]

Here's the video that shows the last offensive play for SDSU and the hail mary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaE3ligeo4E

Looks pretty clearly to be touched by the fans with at least 1 second left. It was interesting that the officials set the game clock back to 8 seconds after the 3rd down play and subsequent timeout from SDSU when the game clocked initially showed 7 seconds after that TO.... looked pretty trivial at the time but that could've made the difference.

[THEsocalledfan]

Here's the video that shows the last offensive play for SDSU and the hail mary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaE3ligeo4E

Looks pretty clearly to be touched by the fans with at least 1 second left. It was interesting that the officials set the game clock back to 8 seconds after the 3rd down play and subsequent timeout from SDSU when the game clocked initially showed 7 seconds after that TO.... looked pretty trivial at the time but that could've made the difference.

Further, after watching again, SDSU QB WAS out of the tackle box....so intentional grounding clearly out of play, but this also had a receiver near it. Also just god aweful camera work; I can't see the ball at all, only the fan reacting to it.

[Professor Chaos]

Further, after watching again, SDSU QB WAS out of the tackle box....so intentional grounding clearly out of play, but this also had a receiver near it. Also just god aweful camera work; I can't see the ball at all, only the fan reacting to it.
Yeah, it's tough to see the ball. It very briefly appears in the upper right part of the shot as it's coming down with 2 seconds on the clock. You can't even see where it lands but based on it's trajectory and velocity it was probably closer to 2 seconds than 0 seconds when it lands... definitely at least 1 second. And they didn't show any replays of it during the broadcast either so the only view we got was the live one.

[El_Chapo]

Here's the video that shows the last offensive play for SDSU and the hail mary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaE3ligeo4E

Looks pretty clearly to be touched by the fans with at least 1 second left. It was interesting that the officials set the game clock back to 8 seconds after the 3rd down play and subsequent timeout from SDSU when the game clocked initially showed 7 seconds after that TO.... looked pretty trivial at the time but that could've made the difference.

holy shit. 2 days later watching that in its entirety....I can't stop laughing at the bunnies.. hahahahahaha

[THEsocalledfan]

Yeah, it's tough to see the ball. It very briefly appears in the upper right part of the shot as it's coming down with 2 seconds on the clock. You can't even see where it lands but based on it's trajectory and velocity it was probably closer to 2 seconds than 0 seconds when it lands... definitely at least 1 second. And they didn't show any replays of it during the broadcast either so the only view we got was the live one.

Holy smokes, I see it now.....way, way further in the stands than I realized. To me, looks like 1 second about right, except for my original question, when is the ball dead.....when it hits 10 rows up in the stands for before? (Indy, thought it was way closer to receiver than this when I first posted....)

[TAILG8R]

Yeah, it's tough to see the ball. It very briefly appears in the upper right part of the shot as it's coming down with 2 seconds on the clock. You can't even see where it lands but based on it's trajectory and velocity it was probably closer to 2 seconds than 0 seconds when it lands... definitely at least 1 second. And they didn't show any replays of it during the broadcast either so the only view we got was the live one.

I just rewatched that part of the broadcast and they did show the replay once during the review. It was from a new angle behind and to the sideline of the QB.

[Professor Chaos]

I just rewatched that part of the broadcast and they did show the replay once during the review. It was from a new angle behind and to the sideline of the QB.
Yeah, you're right. Although from that angle I couldn't see the flight of the ball at all and they didn't sync it up with the clock so it didn't say much either way.

[Hammerhead]

Now that someone pointed out you can see the ball with 2 seconds left, it was thrown much farther up in the stands than I first thought and there is no way it would take more than a second to drop into the stands. That play might have worked in Brookings where the stands are farther from the field. LOL

[THEsocalledfan]

Now that someone pointed out you can see the ball with 2 seconds left, it was thrown much farther up in the stands than I first thought and there is no way it would take more than a second to drop into the stands. That play might have worked in Brookings where the stands are farther from the field. LOL

But what is the rule on clock stoppage? Particularly when you chuck it that far in the stands? Whole reason I want Indy to comment as it is a great question.

[IzzyFlexion]

SDSU called a timeout to plan for their 4th down play.
They must have run the playclock down to 1 second before doing so. Had they taken a delay (especially if they weren't planning on trying for the first down), and THEN called timeout.......there's your 1 second (7 vs 8).

[IndyBison]

I already mentioned the ball is dead in this case when it touches something out of bounds. I couldn't tell for sure exactly when it touched something OOB here, but it definitely seemed like there should have been time left based on when I lost track of the ball. Based on what others saw it sounds like it was easily 1-2 seconds which is also what replay must have been able to confirm. When I first read the comments here I expected the ball to be OOB much later.

The substitution did appear to be officiated correctly. If there was a sub from the offense it was earlier in the dead ball period and likely didn't require holding them up to complete the sub. It appears SDSU got caught trying to sub too late. In a weird way it kind of helped USD. SDSU quickly snapped a play rather than what they probably had planned to run. The receiver caught the ball and went OOB allowing USD to save one of their time outs.

The passer is definitely out of the pocket so he only had to get it beyond the line of scrimmage in order to to legally dump it. Intentional grounding definitely did not occur here. If he did this from the tackle box the fact it possibly sailed 50 feet over the head of a receiver likely wouldn't absolve him of throwing toward a receiver in the area.

As for adding 1 second from 7 to 8 that also made sense because if the play clocked start with 48 seconds on the game clock you can't get to 7 seconds without a delay of game. At this point of a half a 1-second correction will be made. It usually wouldn't happen if the error was with 8 minutes left in the 1st quarter. The general philosophy is anything more than 5 seconds or in the last 5 minutes of the half.

[BFKasper14]

Couldn’t find a thread to put this, but I have a question for Indy. I’m watching the Wisconsin/ AZ State game and was wondering about an intentional grounding call.

The Qb got the ball and threw a lateral pass to a WR. The WR didn’t have anywhere to go so he threw the ball past the LOS out of bounds. There wasn’t a receiver in the area. Intentional grounding was called.

What is the rule for that? Isn’t the WR outside of the tackle box? Thanks!


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[IndyBison]

Couldn’t find a thread to put this, but I have a question for Indy. I’m watching the Wisconsin/ AZ State game and was wondering about an intentional grounding call.

The Qb got the ball and threw a lateral pass to a WR. The WR didn’t have anywhere to go so he threw the ball past the LOS out of bounds. There wasn’t a receiver in the area. Intentional grounding was called.

What is the rule for that? Isn’t the WR outside of the tackle box? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe ability to legally ground the ball outside the tackle box beyond the LOS only applies to the player who receives the snap. This passer needs to get it in the area of an eligible receiver. Good get by the crew.

Also Forks Up! Go Sun Devils!

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[BFKasper14]

The ability to legally ground the ball outside the tackle box beyond the LOS only applies to the player who receives the snap. This passer needs to get it in the area of an eligible receiver. Good get by the crew.

Also Forks Up! Go Sun Devils!

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Thank you, Indy!!!


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[IndyBison]

I thought this would be a great place to share some rules knowledge. Lots of buzz about the 4th down OT play in the Tennessee Purdue game. Lots of comments I'm seeing show an expected ignorance of the applicable rules. Many use the announcers as the source of their justification for an incorrect call.

First, the play is over when it's over, not when the whistle blows. The only time the whistle ends the down is not a good one...inadvertent whistle! The L ruled progress stopped and then blew his whistle. The timing of the whistle means nothing in relation to when he stretched the ball.

Second, progress is a judgment call. The wing has to make a decision based on what he/she sees and often gets criticized no matter what they call on plays like this. He/she doesn't blow the whistle and some defender comes in to hit the runner and the coach will bitch because it was late. I think whether or not progress applies here is debatable, but I think it's the better call. A ruling either way though isn't wrong or a horrible call that screwed one of the teams.

Third, if the L does not rule progress and awards the TD then you have to determine if the other UT player is guilty of assisting the runner. You can push the runner, but you can't pull him. He's definitely trying to pull him and it appears he pulls his arm loose allowing him to stretch it out. This penalty would be enforced and UT would be allowed to replay the down.

Based on those rules I feel you have 2 valid results. Progress stopped and turnover on downs or replay the down after enforcement. If you do the latter you are rewarding the offense for committing a foul because they get another chance. That's why I think progress is the better option. Not sure if that ever crossed the mind of the official when he ruled progress. He did a great job ruling confidently. That's a huge call in a "big" game.

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[Gully]

The ability to legally ground the ball outside the tackle box beyond the LOS only applies to the player who receives the snap. This passer needs to get it in the area of an eligible receiver. Good get by the crew.

Also Forks Up! Go Sun Devils!

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This one has come up a few times this year....seems to be more common than I remember.