Fargodome officially getting new turf

[HerdBot]

https://www.inforum.com/bison-media-zone/mens-sports/football/7255667-Fargodome-OKs-new-AstroTurf-purchase

Wow it's already been a decade. They are trying to decide what to do with the old turf. I suggest giving it to the Fargo Park District. They can put it outside the new Fargo SW Sports Complex. It will be used heavily in the summer by youth football.

[NDSU92]

We're going to lose our label as the only place where you can score a touchdown by going sideways :(

[Bison03]

Definitely needed. Was on the field last weekend for youth football and its getting pretty rough. A lot of games played on their. Normal use by NDSU and high schools, then throw in an additional 22 playoff games. Cant wait to have straight lines again!

[NDGooch]

Since I am a nerd like that, I wonder if anything will change with the design, or if the new turf will be a carbon copy of the old turf?

[Hammerhead]

It would be cool to create a giant mural of a bison herd with a slightly different color of green and not uggo like the Iowa shape at the UNIdome.

[StL Bison Fan]

Since I am a nerd like that, I wonder if anything will change with the design, or if the new turf will be a carbon copy of the old turf?

As long as it isn’t red…
Or teal

[El_Chapo]

As long as it isn’t red…
Or teal

Bright Yellow????????

[MankatoBison]

They wont but please put old school snorty on the 50. My goodness that logo is stunning. It is logo perfection

I hope they do something fresh. Hard to do something bad, but UNI found a way to absolutely ruin their turf with the water stain lol

[TAILG8R]

They wont but please put old school snorty on the 50. My goodness that logo is stunning. It is logo perfection

I hope they do something fresh. Hard to do something bad, but UNI found a way to absolutely ruin their turf with the water stain lol

The first time I saw it I legit thought it was a huge stain from a flood or something. That diarrhea splat is embarrassing and you can't tell me they aren't internally pissed at how it turned out. It does go with the sewage water treatment plant motif the rest of their dome has going on.

[HerdBot]

Bright Yellow????????

https://gopherhole.com/boards/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FI9iLSl I.jpg&hash=c40519da891fad1398b2e250a3e9d953

[THEsocalledfan]

My son's comment at our first game last week......"The yard lines are still curved."

[No_Skill]

Perfect timing since we'll be needing to replace that MVFC logo with our new FBS conference logo.

[Mr Meaty]

perfect timing since we'll be needing to replace that mvfc logo with our new fbs conference logo.

boom!!!!!!!!

[1st&TennBison]

I hear that it is a requirement that if you get FBS turf the lines must be straight.

[HerdBot]

I hear that it is a requirement that if you get FBS turf the lines must be straight.

:rofl:
That's the sign! It's happening!

[MankatoBison]

I dont want anything wild with turf design....

BUT.... what is the craziest thing you could tolerate on new turf?

I'm trying to think.... Maybe the head logo at 50yd line? Not saying I'd prefer it but I think thats about my limit.

Maybe alternating colors of green as long as it doesnt look like mold like UNI?

[HerdBot]

I dont want anything wild with turf design....

BUT.... what is the craziest thing you could tolerate on new turf?

I'm trying to think.... Maybe the head logo at 50yd line? Not saying I'd prefer it but I think thats about my limit.

Maybe alternating colors of green as long as it doesnt look like mold like UNI?


�� World's Largest Pinwheel Maybe a Porn Hub sponsorship?

Live, from Porn Hub Field!

[Bison03]

I would think the design would be the same. The logo on the helmets should continue to be the logo at the 50. Only place we use that logo and not the one with NDSU in it. Yellow endzones are awesome, no need to change them. The only change I could see would be the subtle shade of green difference between 5 yards. The Alerus center did that with their new turf and it looks ok. Not needed though. I do think the turf should be a darker shade of green more like Bison green.

[THEsocalledfan]

I would think the design would be the same. The logo on the helmets should continue to be the logo at the 50. Only place we use that logo and not the one with NDSU in it. Yellow endzones are awesome, no need to change them. The only change I could see would be the subtle shade of green difference between 5 yards. The Alerus center did that with their new turf and it looks ok. Not needed though. I do think the turf should be a darker shade of green more like Bison green.

Maybe we should get blue turf to match the seats? /purple

[StL Bison Fan]

Maybe we should get blue turf to match the seats? /purple

And a sweet checkerboard in the endzones

[Hammerhead]

I would like to see yellow drop shadows for the numbers and the old school "G" at the goal lines.



I dont want anything wild with turf design....

BUT.... what is the craziest thing you could tolerate on new turf?

I'm trying to think.... Maybe the head logo at 50yd line? Not saying I'd prefer it but I think thats about my limit.

Maybe alternating colors of green as long as it doesnt look like mold like UNI?

[oldmantutters]

I would like to see yellow drop shadows for the numbers and the old school "G" at the goal lines.University of Jamestown's alternating green turned out well.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[SomeBeach]

Is Gate City Bank sponsoring the new turf as well? Much as I love the generosity of corporate sponsors, I wish the name of the field - Gate City Bank or Whoever - would be shown in MUCH smaller font size... or maybe not at all.

[Tony Almeida]

As long as the Fargodome keeps rolling the turf up and putting it down as much as they do, the lines will never stay straight.
I would like to see turf like UNI's actually, with shorter grass, it makes it look clean and tight. And I would love to see the different shades of green every five yards as well.
I also agree with SomeBeach on the Gate City Bank logo...make it smaller. (While we're at it, take down those stupid banners that hang below the scoreboard as well, on TV it distracts from end zone cameras) Sorry, had to throw that in there.

[HerdBot]

As long as the Fargodome keeps rolling the turf up and putting it down as much as they do, the lines will never stay straight.
I would like to see turf like UNI's actually, with shorter grass, it makes it look clean and tight. And I would love to see the different shades of green every five yards as well.
I also agree with SomeBeach on the Gate City Bank logo...make it smaller. (While we're at it, take down those stupid banners that hang below the scoreboard as well, on TV it distracts from end zone cameras) Sorry, had to throw that in there.

Do we know that for a fact or just suspect that? It was never a problem until a few years ago and apparently the hydraulics went bad

[yopaulie]

I dont want anything wild with turf design....

BUT.... what is the craziest thing you could tolerate on new turf?

I'm trying to think.... Maybe the head logo at 50yd line? Not saying I'd prefer it but I think thats about my limit.

Maybe alternating colors of green as long as it doesnt look like mold like UNI?

Proseed trivia questions every 5 yards...purple

[Tony Almeida]

Do we know that for a fact or just suspect that? It was never a problem until a few years ago and apparently the hydraulics went badWell, in that article you posted from Inforum, it states that UNI and USD puts their turf down horizontally in separate pieces, but the Fargodome can do it much quicker with their system in as little as 27 minutes....that's when I said to myself, "yeah and it shows." Still doesn't really answer your question, but if I was a betting man...

[tony]

I dont want anything wild with turf design....

BUT.... what is the craziest thing you could tolerate on new turf?

The "grass" is composed of RGB fiber optic strands so that the turf can act as a giant video screen.

[HerdBot]

Well, in that article you posted from Inforum, it states that UNI and USD puts their turf down horizontally in separate pieces, but the Fargodome can do it much quicker with their system in as little as 27 minutes....that's when I said to myself, "yeah and it shows." Still doesn't really answer your question, but if I was a betting man...

Most new stadiums just leave the turf down and cover it but apparently we can't with the sliding south end zone. I suspect it wears faster too but it's more a gut feeling. The UNI turf looks shitty and its had seams exposed

[Hammersmith]

As long as the Fargodome keeps rolling the turf up and putting it down as much as they do, the lines will never stay straight.
I would like to see turf like UNI's actually, with shorter grass, it makes it look clean and tight. And I would love to see the different shades of green every five yards as well.
I also agree with SomeBeach on the Gate City Bank logo...make it smaller. (While we're at it, take down those stupid banners that hang below the scoreboard as well, on TV it distracts from end zone cameras) Sorry, had to throw that in there.

The system was fine with the old carpet-style turf. Switching to infill-style turf caused some unexpected problems. The new turf is a few times heaver than the old, and it's much bigger when rolled up. They replaced the roll up mechanism as part of the switch to handle the weight, and made the pit larger, but the big problem is the angle of the turf as it comes out of the pit is now much steeper because the pit is deeper. This causes the turf to drag over the lip of the pit and it tears up the base layer of the turf. It killed the first infill turf in less than a season. After that fiasco(which also happened to the Alerus turf), the turf company replaced the turf at their cost and tweaked the system. But it seems the tweak wasn't a perfect fix and the base layer of the current turf has been slowly torn up. Without a stable base layer, the turf stretches unevenly as it's pulled out and the lines get crooked. A new turf will stretch out evenly again, and hopefully they'll try and tweak the mechanism again to slow down the damage even more.

[taper]

The system was fine with the old carpet-style turf. Switching to infill-style turf caused some unexpected problems. The new turf is a few times heaver than the old, and it's much bigger when rolled up. They replaced the roll up mechanism as part of the switch to handle the weight, and made the pit larger, but the big problem is the angle of the turf as it comes out of the pit is now much steeper because the pit is deeper. This causes the turf to drag over the lip of the pit and it tears up the base layer of the turf. It killed the first infill turf in less than a season. After that fiasco(which also happened to the Alerus turf), the turf company replaced the turf at their cost and tweaked the system. But it seems the tweak wasn't a perfect fix and the base layer of the current turf has been slowly torn up. Without a stable base layer, the turf stretches unevenly as it's pulled out and the lines get crooked. A new turf will stretch out evenly again, and hopefully they'll try and tweak the mechanism again to slow down the damage even more.

That's some neat info. I knew quite a bit about the old painted concrete we had before but was out before this field was installed. As an historical note, the previous turf was infamous for knee injuries. I tore my ACL during, of all things, marching band practice the morning of our 2nd home game on that turf. I think I was the first serious injury. Did a cut at speed, foot planted and knee went sideways. It really did grab you if you weren't ready for it.

[Hammersmith]

That's some neat info. I knew quite a bit about the old painted concrete we had before but was out before this field was installed. As an historical note, the previous turf was infamous for knee injuries. I tore my ACL during, of all things, marching band practice the morning of our 2nd home game on that turf. I think I was the first serious injury. Did a cut at speed, foot planted and knee went sideways. It really did grab you if you weren't ready for it.

Were you there as part of the football team or the marching band? Just curious.

[taper]

Were you there as part of the football team or the marching band? Just curious.

Band. Didn't do pregame or halftime the rest of the season but didn't miss a game playing in the stands.

[KSBisonFan]

I'm just hoping the new turf helps WDAY get the yellow first down line correct. Is that even possible? Maybe have "smart" yard markers that automatically place the yellow line at the first down line to gain.

[Hammersmith]

Band. Didn't do pregame or halftime the rest of the season but didn't miss a game playing in the stands.

Maybe we did this before and I just forgot, but we must have been in the band at the same time or just missed each other. Fall of 94 was my first year(NDSU's 2nd year in the dome). I also remember that sticky-ass turf(and the sticky-ass crowned turf at Dacotah).

[taper]

You're the drum major that did something cool in the Fargo Forum, right? We didn't overlap but have mutual friends. You really need to come to alumni band homecoming. Alumni directors for pregame are always hard to find, if you're interested PM me and I'll get you in touch with the board. Seriously, we're always looking for people. That's an open invitation to anyone else from the Gold Star Band, we really want to have you back.

[Hammersmith]

You're the drum major that did something cool in the Fargo Forum, right? We didn't overlap but have mutual friends. You really need to come to alumni band homecoming. Alumni directors for pregame are always hard to find, if you're interested PM me and I'll get you in touch with the board. Seriously, we're always looking for people. That's an open invitation to anyone else from the Gold Star Band, we really want to have you back.

I was a drum major, but I don't know if I did anything cool in the Forum. Biggest claim to fame was the dubious honor of having cancer while DMing. Don't recall if that ever made the Forum. I was a pretty crappy DM for one year, and a reasonably decent one the second year after I actually learned a bit about football.

[taper]

I was a drum major, but I don't know if I did anything cool in the Forum. Biggest claim to fame was the dubious honor of having cancer while DMing. Don't recall if that ever made the Forum. I was a pretty crappy DM for one year, and a reasonably decent one the second year after I actually learned a bit about football.

I was vague as to not dox someone, you're not the one I was thinking of but we'd still love to have you at alumni band. For anyone else reading this, our Facebook group is the best way of getting info, otherwise feel free to PM me.

[AKBison]

Is Gate City Bank sponsoring the new turf as well? Much as I love the generosity of corporate sponsors, I wish the name of the field - Gate City Bank or Whoever - would be shown in MUCH smaller font size... or maybe not at all.

This is my #1 issue as well. The name definitely belongs on there but we need to drop down the font size again.

[THEsocalledfan]

So, I was at my sons football at Howard Wood yesterday, and they have wifi. Any chance the Dome will get modern like every other large venue in America? Is this the next step after replacing the turf that needed to go 2-3 years ago?

[BattleBorn]

They could cut that up and sell little squares and damn near have the next field paid in full. That said... Anyone wanna go halfsies on a big ass warehouse rental, some razor blades, and some Fargodome turf?

[Hammerhead]

So, I was at my sons football at Howard Wood yesterday, and they have wifi. Any chance the Dome will get modern like every other large venue in America? Is this the next step after replacing the turf that needed to go 2-3 years ago?

The wi-fi at US Bank has always been hit and miss on my iPhone. I'd rather get green seats with cupholders before wi-fi. :)

[1st&TennBison]

How about a white field with gold numbers/lines and a green end zone.

[BattleBorn]

How about a white field with gold numbers/lines and a green end zone.

Fiber optic field so we can change the turf to match the grass outside based on season/snowfall. Don't screw with the yellow end zone.

[BISONBRI53]

So, I was at my sons football at Howard Wood yesterday, and they have wifi. Any chance the Dome will get modern like every other large venue in America? Is this the next step after replacing the turf that needed to go 2-3 years ago?

Has USD crossed the 50 yet? :rofl:

[taper]

How about a white field with gold numbers/lines and a green end zone.

NCAA requires white yard markings.

[StL Bison Fan]

So, I was at my sons football at Howard Wood yesterday, and they have wifi. Any chance the Dome will get modern like every other large venue in America? Is this the next step after replacing the turf that needed to go 2-3 years ago?

They have the post your picture to Twitter but no WiFi.
Biggest troll ever. They would have to think of something else to frustrate us.

[1st&TennBison]

Then lets be trend setters and go to a white field, white numbers and markers/lines and white end zones.

[EC8CH]

Keep it exactly as is but decrease the size of any donor logos.

[Bison03]

I’d like to think that the technology for turf, even for specific layouts like the dome, has improved in the last decade. It will look awesome! Hope there are many playoff game the next decade to wear it out again.

[EC8CH]

I’d like to think that the technology for turf, even for specific layouts like the dome, has improved in the last decade. It will look awesome! Hope there are many playoff game the next decade to wear it out again.

Do any other venues roll it out all in one piece like the FargoDome? Just curious how unique of an application that is.

[Bison03]

Do any other venues roll it out all in one piece like the FargoDome? Just curious how unique of an application that is.
Probably not many. Alerus Center had it. With their new permanent turf now, they are still able to, just barely, move their seats like they have done for events. Although they probably dont do that too often. The dome will always need the ability to move the north bleachers.

[Hammersmith]

Do any other venues roll it out all in one piece like the FargoDome? Just curious how unique of an application that is.

I'm not going to say the dome is the only one, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. I'm pretty sure it's the only MLB/NFL/FCS* facility to use a one-piece, retractable, in-fill turf. Not 100% certain on FBS/DII/III/etc. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a couple one-piece, retractable, carpet turfs still out there. Regardless, it would surprise me if you couldn't count all of them together on two hands, or even just one.


*Alerus was a one-piece, retractble, carpet turf. Then it was a multi-piece, retractable, in-fill turf. Then they gave up and just put in a fixed in-fill.

[EC8CH]

That's why I like the Gate City Bank our turn video. Showcases a pretty unique system. /mechanical_geekout

[IndyBison]

I'm hindsight would it have made sense to have permanent turf and then set up temporary bleachers that could be set up over the turf? This is what most stadiums I know have done. Creating the hydraulic system to move the north bleachers down to the south end probably wasn't cheap. And it creates these issues with the turf. How often do they bring those bleachers down?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Hammersmith]

I'm hindsight would it have made sense to have permanent turf and then set up temporary bleachers that could be set up over the turf? This is what most stadiums I know have done. Creating the hydraulic system to move the north bleachers down to the south end probably wasn't cheap. And it creates these issues with the turf. How often do they bring those bleachers down?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Pneumatic, not hydraulic. The stands sit on air bearings. They get pressurized by an air compressor, then staff members push the floating stands into position. I think it's actually a pretty slick and inexpensive system to run. The problem is that it requires a stable, flat surface to keep the stands floating. The joints in turf cover panels, plus the flex in the panels themselves, would make it impossible to keep the bearings pressurized as the stands slid across them.

[Bison03]

Pneumatic, not hydraulic. The stands sit on air bearings. They get pressurized by an air compressor, then staff members push the floating stands into position. I think it's actually a pretty slick and inexpensive system to run. The problem is that it requires a stable, flat surface to keep the stands floating. The joints in turf cover panels, plus the flex in the panels themselves, would make it impossible to keep the bearings pressurized as the stands slid across them.
Now that is some solid Fargodome knowledge right there. The Alerus movable bleachers must be different as I believe the bleachers can still move over their panals.

[ByeSonBusiness]

That's some neat info. I knew quite a bit about the old painted concrete we had before but was out before this field was installed. As an historical note, the previous turf was infamous for knee injuries. I tore my ACL during, of all things, marching band practice the morning of our 2nd home game on that turf. I think I was the first serious injury. Did a cut at speed, foot planted and knee went sideways. It really did grab you if you weren't ready for it.

I can think of one much more significant injury... in the opening game.

[BisonVifte]

Or maybe they could just leave the turf and cover it unless they need to move the south stands.

[Hammersmith]

Or maybe they could just leave the turf and cover it unless they need to move the south stands.

Not positive, but I think a lot of important electrical and communications connections are built into the floor. Arenas with fixed turfs solve the problem with sections of turf that are removable. That wouldn't work for the FD because those holes would become weak points when pulling the turf in or out. (at least that's my guess as to why it wouldn't work)

[HerdBot]

Pneumatic, not hydraulic. The stands sit on air bearings. They get pressurized by an air compressor, then staff members push the floating stands into position. I think it's actually a pretty slick and inexpensive system to run. The problem is that it requires a stable, flat surface to keep the stands floating. The joints in turf cover panels, plus the flex in the panels themselves, would make it impossible to keep the bearings pressurized as the stands slid across them.

You're knowledge of stuff like this never ceases to amaze me

[Hammersmith]

You're knowledge of stuff like this never ceases to amaze me

Most of it came from being in the marching band back when the dome first opened and everybody was talking about the specifics since those were the stands we started on. Then there were the long, long, long debates with MplsBison back when he wanted infill turf at all costs. As for today, I just googled 'fargodome moving stands' or something and it directed me to the FD technical manual which had the details as to how exactly the stands move. (I knew it was air, but not how it worked.)

[offroader613]

Pneumatic, not hydraulic. The stands sit on air bearings. They get pressurized by an air compressor, then staff members push the floating stands into position. I think it's actually a pretty slick and inexpensive system to run. The problem is that it requires a stable, flat surface to keep the stands floating. The joints in turf cover panels, plus the flex in the panels themselves, would make it impossible to keep the bearings pressurized as the stands slid across them.

It really is impressive seeing a structure that large be moved with just 2 forklifts. But yes, those air bearings are finicky, and sometimes even too large of an expansion joint in the concrete can cause one to lose pressure and deflate.


Not positive, but I think a lot of important electrical and communications connections are built into the floor. Arenas with fixed turfs solve the problem with sections of turf that are removable. That wouldn't work for the FD because those holes would become weak points when pulling the turf in or out. (at least that's my guess as to why it wouldn't work)

Correct, there are (at least) several dozen boxes in the floor in a grid pattern with electrical and other misc connections inside them, primarily for trade shows. That's a lot of additional weak points if you go making pieces removable

[Dubbsy]

Do any other venues roll it out all in one piece like the FargoDome? Just curious how unique of an application that is.

As I recall when this infill 3D system was installed, it was the second in the US with the Alerus being #3.
The first was in an NFL stadium.

The original system actually worked fairly well but the new infill system is exceptionally more weight. Not sure how widespread that was used though.

[tjamz]

The "grass" is composed of RGB fiber optic strands so that the turf can act as a giant video screen.So... In a perfect world where this was a thing/reality, would this mean that the yellow first down lines and line of scrimmage lines would be built right into the field? If so, would WDAY somehow still manage to broadcast lines that are several yards off from reality?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Hammersmith]

So... In a perfect world where this was a thing/reality, would this mean that the yellow first down lines and line of scrimmage lines would be built right into the field? If so, would WDAY somehow still manage to broadcast lines that are several yards off from reality?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Not without a rule change. And, yes, they would still screw it up.

[1st&TennBison]

So... In a perfect world where this was a thing/reality, would this mean that the yellow first down lines and line of scrimmage lines would be built right into the field? If so, would WDAY somehow still manage to broadcast lines that are several yards off from reality?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

How dare you diss the all mighty WDAY you heathen. I'ma gonna call them and have your TV broadcast signal blocked for all future games.

[Hammerhead]

Put the NDSU tartan in the end zones. https://tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails?ref=10517
https://tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanImagePrototype?ref=10517&width=750&height=750&resize=no&shadows=yes&threadsize=4

[DakotaOkie]

Put the NDSU tartan in the end zones. https://tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails?ref=10517
https://tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanImagePrototype?ref=10517&width=750&height=750&resize=no&shadows=yes&threadsize=4
That's bad enough to almost be pretty cool idea for the endzone. Certainly would be unique!

[IndyBison]

So... In a perfect world where this was a thing/reality, would this mean that the yellow first down lines and line of scrimmage lines would be built right into the field? If so, would WDAY somehow still manage to broadcast lines that are several yards off from reality?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using TapatalkYou kind of technically already have that. 95% of the time the series starts with the nose of the ball on the back of a yard line. This makes the back of the line 10 yards away the line to gain. So there are already 99 first down lines on the field. 19 of them cover the width of the field. When a runner is ruled down the wings decide if he made that line similar to the goal line. That's why you rarely see measurements any longer.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Bison03]

You kind of technically already have that. 95% of the time the series starts with the nose of the ball on the back of a yard line. This makes the back of the line 10 yards away the line to gain. So there are already 99 first down lines on the field. 19 of them cover the width of the field. When a runner is ruled down the wings decide if he made that line similar to the goal line. That's why you rarely see measurements any longer.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
But balls aren’t always spotted exactly on a yardline.

[IndyBison]

But balls aren’t always spotted exactly on a yardline.They are 95% of the time on first down. It's very intentional for this reason.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[southcliffbison]

That's bad enough to almost be pretty cool idea for the endzone. Certainly would be unique!


I guess you could call that field in Cheney, Washington, unique also.

[Gully]

Someone suggested checkerboard enzones....I think they should do that but with all of the boxes in the same color. That way you couldn't see the checkboard, but you'd know it was there.

[Gully]

How about pylon cameras or at least a camera straight down the goal line?

Cue Hammer breaking out the camera specifications from 1993 and the drawings for the chips in the pylons :)

[BisonHorns]

Someone suggested checkerboard enzones....I think they should do that but with all of the boxes in the same color. That way you couldn't see the checkboard, but you'd know it was there.

That is what we have now. It is a shame you haven't been enjoying it as much as the rest of us.

[Hammerhead]

They are 95% of the time on first down. It's very intentional for this reason.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

They are 100% of the time on punt and kickoff returns. Even when it's obvious that a punt never touched by anyone rolls to a stop halfway between two yard lines, the ball is spotted up to the yard line closer to the opponent's goal line.

[IndyBison]

They are 100% of the time on punt and kickoff returns. Even when it's obvious that a punt never touched by anyone rolls to a stop halfway between two yard lines, the ball is spotted up to the yard line closer to the opponent's goal line.Exactly. But most first downs reached during the drive as well. There will be exceptions. We had fouls yesterday on kicks where penalties were enforced half the distance from the end of the kick. One was the 25 and the other was the 1. In both cases we had to start the series between yard lines.

The stat guy uses the next line and it's 1st and 10 regardless. What difference does 12 or 18 inches make at that point? It has drastically improved hand management and most people don't notice. If you see a measurement is usually for PR purposes.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[southcliffbison]

Exactly. But most first downs reached during the drive as well. There will be exceptions. We had fouls yesterday on kicks where penalties were enforced half the distance from the end of the kick. One was the 25 and the other was the 1. In both cases we had to start the series between yard lines.

The stat guy uses the next line and it's 1st and 10 regardless. What difference does 12 or 18 inches make at that point? It has drastically improved hand management and most people don't notice. If you see a measurement is usually for PR purposes.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


There are times a crew had better measure; an example would be Bubba's ill fated, ill-advised 4 and 2 attempt from their 20 yard line. It was 3 maybe 4 inches short (that's what it looked like from the camera angle); there's no way in hell the line judge or the head linesman could tell if the ball had crossed the line to gain. Hence, the measurement.

[IndyBison]

There are times a crew had better measure; an example would be Bubba's ill fated, ill-advised 4 and 2 attempt from their 20 yard line. It was 3 maybe 4 inches short (that's what it looked like from the camera angle); there's no way in hell the line judge or the head linesman could tell if the ball had crossed the line to gain. Hence, the measurement.The spot itself is not precise to the MM and you are bringing in a chain that was clipped by someone 2-4 yards from the sideline based on a very inexact placement of the back stake. The wing knows which line on the field they have to reach so he makes a determination based on what he sees if the ball reached that line on the field similar to if it was the goal line.

Using the lines on the field are much more accurate than the chain and the clip. What if the stake or clip is 4-6 inches off and gives the offense a first down when they are short or shows them short when they actually reached it?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[MankatoBison]

Someone suggested checkerboard enzones....I think they should do that but with all of the boxes in the same color. That way you couldn't see the checkboard, but you'd know it was there.

Side note, I actually love SDSU's chekcerboard endzone idea- EXCEEEEEPT that it doesnt fill the entire endzone and it looks absolutely stupid lol.. just fill the whole damn endzone with checkerboard.

Is there some kind of rule against alternating colors along the goal line or something? I cannot fathom how stupid you would have to be to do this on purpose
9747

[Hammerhead]

The checkerboard would look better if it was just 6" - 12" from the white lines.


Side note, I actually love SDSU's chekcerboard endzone idea- EXCEEEEEPT that it doesnt fill the entire endzone and it looks absolutely stupid lol.. just fill the whole damn endzone with checkerboard.

Is there some kind of rule against alternating colors along the goal line or something? I cannot fathom how stupid you would have to be to do this on purpose
9747

[southcliffbison]

The spot itself is not precise to the MM and you are bringing in a chain that was clipped by someone 2-4 yards from the sideline based on a very inexact placement of the back stake. The wing knows which line on the field they have to reach so he makes a determination based on what he sees if the ball reached that line on the field similar to if it was the goal line.

Using the lines on the field are much more accurate than the chain and the clip. What if the stake or clip is 4-6 inches off and gives the offense a first down when they are short or shows them short when they actually reached it

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Even in high school football, most chain crews do an excellent job of establishing the line to gain. Not to belabor this discussion.......it's been my experience as a head linesman that the stake is placed down at/on the sideline and yard line intersection, the clip is then attached a few yards up the chain at the edge (front or back) of the yard line. After this task is completed, then they move back 3 to 4 yards from the feld of play. If whoever places the clip on the chain 4 to 6 inches from where it should be placed......well, that person needs to be replaced. It's not that hard to do it right. Thanks for your input.

[bisonaudit]

Even in high school football, most chain crews do an excellent job of establishing the line to gain. Not to belabor this discussion.......it's been my experience as a head linesman that the stake is placed down at/on the sideline and yard line intersection, the clip is then attached a few yards up the chain at the edge (front or back) of the yard line. After this task is completed, then they move back 3 to 4 yards from the feld of play. If whoever places the clip on the chain 4 to 6 inches from where it should be placed......well, that person needs to be replaced. It's not that hard to do it right. Thanks for your input.

The fact that the NFL still uses this archaic tech to measure first downs is silly international soccer level thinking. The game isn’t the same at every level. It’s not a bad solution, it works fine most of the time but for a multibillion dollar enterprise you’d think a better solution could be implemented.

[Hammersmith]

The fact that the NFL still uses this archaic tech to measure first downs is silly international soccer level thinking. The game isn’t the same at every level. It’s not a bad solution, it works fine most of the time but for a multibillion dollar enterprise you’d think a better solution could be implemented.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/76571532.jpg

[NDSU92]

Side note, I actually love SDSU's chekcerboard endzone idea- EXCEEEEEPT that it doesnt fill the entire endzone and it looks absolutely stupid lol.. just fill the whole damn endzone with checkerboard.

Is there some kind of rule against alternating colors along the goal line or something? I cannot fathom how stupid you would have to be to do this on purpose
9747

It's a branding thing SDSU has been working on for a while now.

SDSU's field almost has a checkerboard endzone.
SDSU's program almost compares to NDSU.
SDSU's coaches almost don't drive drunk.

[IndyBison]

Side note, I actually love SDSU's chekcerboard endzone idea- EXCEEEEEPT that it doesnt fill the entire endzone and it looks absolutely stupid lol.. just fill the whole damn endzone with checkerboard.

Is there some kind of rule against alternating colors along the goal line or something? I cannot fathom how stupid you would have to be to do this on purpose
9747

Here are the specific rules related what you can do in the end zone:

d. White field markings or contrasting decorative markings (e.g., team names)
are permissible in the end zones but shall not be closer than four feet to any
line.
e. Contrasting coloring in the end zones may abut any line.

If I'm reading this right I think the should be able to go to the goal lines with the checkerboard if they wanted. If they applied item (d) above does it appear they are 4 feet away? Blue and yellow are probably contrasting to white. We see soccer lines on a lot of our fields and the yellow goal line for soccer is often touching the white end end line for football so we have to make sure the soccer line is in or out.

[IndyBison]

Even in high school football, most chain crews do an excellent job of establishing the line to gain. Not to belabor this discussion.......it's been my experience as a head linesman that the stake is placed down at/on the sideline and yard line intersection, the clip is then attached a few yards up the chain at the edge (front or back) of the yard line. After this task is completed, then they move back 3 to 4 yards from the feld of play. If whoever places the clip on the chain 4 to 6 inches from where it should be placed......well, that person needs to be replaced. It's not that hard to do it right. Thanks for your input.

You must go really slow if the line to gain equipment will be placed on the sideline correctly and then the clip is applied and then the chains moved back. Because all of that would have to be done before the umpire can step away for the ready for play. Otherwise the H would start the play on the field or be stuck behind the back stake. He starts in the white. Generally for us the box will be there before the ready for play, but the chains are often moving at that point. There may be times the clip isn't even added until the ball is snapped. This is another benefit of using the back of a line. If the box gets there first he can set up on the A43 (just to pick a line at random). Even if the ball is snapped before the chain is ready they'll know they should be lined up on the back of the A43 even if the ball has been snapped. The chains essentially just become visual reminders of which line you have to get to for a first down. If a series can't start on a line for some reason they do become more important.

I was on the clip guy for a state championship game a couple years ago. We had a series start on a big line (let's say B45 for explanation purposes). This means I put the clip on the back of the B40 once the chains are set. We are in the 4th quarter of a 1 or 2 score game and the team trailing has the ball. They go for it on 4th down and the wing rules the runner down on the B35. From my perspective they have a first down using the lines on the field. For some reason the R decides to measure. When they take the chains out and stretch them the front stake is about 8 inches BEYOND the B35 and awarded a new series to the defensive team. There is no way that should have happened. I don't know if the back stake was set up wrong. I don't know if my clip was off. I don't know if the HL put the clip down on the front of the B40 rather than the back. I don't know if my clip was a little off. It's likely a combination of those. But something failed with the set up of the clip and chains and it had a huge impact on the game at that point. They started with the nose of the ball on the B45 so reaching the B35 should have resulted in a first down.

Another example I'll give is from a D3 game I had a couple years ago. End of game, home team is down by a score and on defense. Offense is trying to run out the clock. They had to reach the B40 to get a first down. On 4th down they reached the B40 so the referee signaled first down and we moved the chains. The home coach is going ballistic. We tried to explain they clearly reached the LTG. The nose of the ball was on the front of the B40. He was saying something about being behind the chain. We wound the clock and the game ended (may have taken a knee or two I don't remember). When we watched the film we realize the coach had some validity in his complaint. The front stake was 8 inches beyond the front of the B40 so a foot beyond the actual line to gain. We went back and watched the series to see how it happened. On the first down play the chains were set properly and you could clearly see the front stake on the back of the B40. So how did they end up a foot further ahead? On 2nd down there was long gain by the offense which would have been a first down. The chain crew didn't realize there was a flag and didn't wait for the head linesman to move them but they moved anyway. The foul was on the offense so the chains had to go back and reset. When they did you can see the front stake is now a little beyond the front of the B40. They were either careless when they reset the chains with the clip or the clip guy did not have good eyes in lining it up. On 3rd down there was a run that went to the visitor sideline and as good chain crews will do they dropped the chains and got away. When they reset the chains you can now see the front stake is about 8 inches beyond the line to gain. The head linesman isn't babysitting them to the point of confirming they get set up exactly right. They have a job to do and should be able to do it well. They also realize the line to gain stake should be on the back of the B40 so that guy should notice he's a foot off. But they are usually baseball or basketball players doing work study or getting paid in hot dogs and M&Ms. But not doing their job made us look bad because the coach had a legitimate complaint even though he was still wrong.

Use the lines on the field whenever you can the chains have too much variability that can get you in trouble like these two examples prove.


The fact that the NFL still uses this archaic tech to measure first downs is silly international soccer level thinking. The game isn’t the same at every level. It’s not a bad solution, it works fine most of the time but for a multibillion dollar enterprise you’d think a better solution could be implemented.

The beauty of football is the inexact science of many aspects of the game. The ball bounces funny. Spots are not exact science even with 100 cameras all over the field. Catchno catch has subjective judgements involved. Pass/fumble on a hit on the QB is not an absolute. Unlike tennis or soccer where in bounds and out of bounds are determined by the ball in relation to a boundary line, football involves both the location of the ball and an element of a runner down or out of bounds. Any advance technology would have to involve sensors on the entire surface of the ball, on both the plane of the sideline and everywhere on the ground from the sideline to at least 6-8 feet beyond the sideline, and on every part of the player except their hand, wrist and foot. And on the player it would have to be on every player whether or not they are in the game because they could end up in the game. You may not need it for every yard line because you probably establish something based on where the new series starts. But it would have to extend from sideline to sideline and probably beyond. Is all of that really worth it for something that comes up as a critical point maybe aa couple times each game?

Or do we use the elements already on the field rely on the trained judgement of a qualified official to make the unbiased judgement of whether the ball has reached the pointed line on the field? And you have replay as a back up in case the official is blocked or significantly missed the location of the ball when a body part touched the ground or OOB. The technology would be awesome. But is it worth it especially for anyone outside of major P5 programs?

[southcliffbison]

You must go really slow if the line to gain equipment will be placed on the sideline correctly and then the clip is applied and then the chains moved back. Because all of that would have to be done before the umpire can step away for the ready for play. Otherwise the H would start the play on the field or be stuck behind the back stake. He starts in the white. Generally for us the box will be there before the ready for play, but the chains are often moving at that point. There may be times the clip isn't even added until the ball is snapped. This is another benefit of using the back of a line. If the box gets there first he can set up on the A43 (just to pick a line at random). Even if the ball is snapped before the chain is ready they'll know they should be lined up on the back of the A43 even if the ball has been snapped. The chains essentially just become visual reminders of which line you have to get to for a first down. If a series can't start on a line for some reason they do become more important.

I was on the clip guy for a state championship game a couple years ago. We had a series start on a big line (let's say B45 for explanation purposes). This means I put the clip on the back of the B40 once the chains are set. We are in the 4th quarter of a 1 or 2 score game and the team trailing has the ball. They go for it on 4th down and the wing rules the runner down on the B35. From my perspective they have a first down using the lines on the field. For some reason the R decides to measure. When they take the chains out and stretch them the front stake is about 8 inches BEYOND the B35 and awarded a new series to the defensive team. There is no way that should have happened. I don't know if the back stake was set up wrong. I don't know if my clip was off. I don't know if the HL put the clip down on the front of the B40 rather than the back. I don't know if my clip was a little off. It's likely a combination of those. But something failed with the set up of the clip and chains and it had a huge impact on the game at that point. They started with the nose of the ball on the B45 so reaching the B35 should have resulted in a first down.

Another example I'll give is from a D3 game I had a couple years ago. End of game, home team is down by a score and on defense. Offense is trying to run out the clock. They had to reach the B40 to get a first down. On 4th down they reached the B40 so the referee signaled first down and we moved the chains. The home coach is going ballistic. We tried to explain they clearly reached the LTG. The nose of the ball was on the front of the B40. He was saying something about being behind the chain. We wound the clock and the game ended (may have taken a knee or two I don't remember). When we watched the film we realize the coach had some validity in his complaint. The front stake was 8 inches beyond the front of the B40 so a foot beyond the actual line to gain. We went back and watched the series to see how it happened. On the first down play the chains were set properly and you could clearly see the front stake on the back of the B40. So how did they end up a foot further ahead? On 2nd down there was long gain by the offense which would have been a first down. The chain crew didn't realize there was a flag and didn't wait for the head linesman to move them but they moved anyway. The foul was on the offense so the chains had to go back and reset. When they did you can see the front stake is now a little beyond the front of the B40. They were either careless when they reset the chains with the clip or the clip guy did not have good eyes in lining it up. On 3rd down there was a run that went to the visitor sideline and as good chain crews will do they dropped the chains and got away. When they reset the chains you can now see the front stake is about 8 inches beyond the line to gain. The head linesman isn't babysitting them to the point of confirming they get set up exactly right. They have a job to do and should be able to do it well. They also realize the line to gain stake should be on the back of the B40 so that guy should notice he's a foot off. But they are usually baseball or basketball players doing work study or getting paid in hot dogs and M&Ms. But not doing their job made us look bad because the coach had a legitimate complaint even though he was still wrong.

Use the lines on the field whenever you can the chains have too much variability that can get you in trouble like these two examples prove.

Thank you, Indy; very interesting read. Again, thanks for your input.

[IndyBison]

Thank you, Indy; very interesting read. Again, thanks for your input.

Probably too wordy and most people skip it when they see how long it is. I'm fine if they skip it or dismiss it. But those who read it will hopefully take something away from it. It may seem like the officials who work the games just show up, make some calls and go home, but there is so much more to it. Especially at the level where the Bison play. Most college officials especially treat this as an avocation rather than a hobby and they have more passion for doing this well than their full paying job.

I was at a college study group meeting this week where we spent an hour with about 30 officials reviewing a variety of plays from D3 games. There were some great discussions about forward progress on a potential fumble, false start on a fake handoff before the ball was snapped (that was strange!), and legally consuming time at the end of a game by running around before taking a knee. The discussion was lead by a D1 referee many of you would recognize. He didn't have to spend his evening doing that but he did because he wants officials at all levels to be the best they can be. Then we went to the bar and watched a MACtion game making fun of our friends who were working the game. That was the fun part.

[taper]

Probably too wordy and most people skip it when they see how long it is. I'm fine if they skip it or dismiss it. But those who read it will hopefully take something away from it. It may seem like the officials who work the games just show up, make some calls and go home, but there is so much more to it. Especially at the level where the Bison play. Most college officials especially treat this as an avocation rather than a hobby and they have more passion for doing this well than their full paying job.

I was at a college study group meeting this week where we spent an hour with about 30 officials reviewing a variety of plays from D3 games. There were some great discussions about forward progress on a potential fumble, false start on a fake handoff before the ball was snapped (that was strange!), and legally consuming time at the end of a game by running around before taking a knee. The discussion was lead by a D1 referee many of you would recognize. He didn't have to spend his evening doing that but he did because he wants officials at all levels to be the best they can be. Then we went to the bar and watched a MACtion game making fun of our friends who were working the game. That was the fun part.
Engineers have a similar tradition.
https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/bb023dd4bc2ce7508dc570325ae35fb52f2b869e/0eea1/images/2013/03/176362.code_mocking.gif

[southcliffbison]

Probably too wordy and most people skip it when they see how long it is. I'm fine if they skip it or dismiss it. But those who read it will hopefully take something away from it. It may seem like the officials who work the games just show up, make some calls and go home, but there is so much more to it. Especially at the level where the Bison play. Most college officials especially treat this as an avocation rather than a hobby and they have more passion for doing this well than their full paying job.

I was at a college study group meeting this week where we spent an hour with about 30 officials reviewing a variety of plays from D3 games. There were some great discussions about forward progress on a potential fumble, false start on a fake handoff before the ball was snapped (that was strange!), and legally consuming time at the end of a game by running around before taking a knee. The discussion was lead by a D1 referee many of you would recognize. He didn't have to spend his evening doing that but he did because he wants officials at all levels to be the best they can be. Then we went to the bar and watched a MACtion game making fun of our friends who were working the game. That was the fun part.

Those of us on this board who officiate football appreciate your takes on various officiating topics. In South Dakota, we lost a football officiating legend in Buck Timmons last year due to covid. After he retired from officiating, he became the supervisor for basketball and football officials for the SDHSAA.......he is missed. One other thing, the Minnesota state high school league had the umpires on football crews behind the offense across from the referee. It's a one year thing and umpires will be surveyed at the end of the season for their thoughts. The reason/ purpose was to prevent injury caused by on rushing linemen or crashing linebackers. I worked 3 times behind the offense as an umpire and I didn't feel comfortable or confident back there.......did feel safer though, Do know of other states that are doing similar experimentations like this?

[IndyBison]

Those of us on this board who officiate football appreciate your takes on various officiating topics. In South Dakota, we lost a football officiating legend in Buck Timmons last year due to covid. After he retired from officiating, he became the supervisor for basketball and football officials for the SDHSAA.......he is missed. One other thing, the Minnesota state high school league had the umpires on football crews behind the offense across from the referee. It's a one year thing and umpires will be surveyed at the end of the season for their thoughts. The reason/ purpose was to prevent injury caused by on rushing linemen or crashing linebackers. I worked 3 times behind the offense as as umpire and I didn't feel comfortable or confident back there.......did feel safer though, Do know of other states that are doing similar experimentations like this?

There are a couple plus sometimes local associations will do it as well. The Big Sky has done it for a few years with 7-man crews. I'm curious to see if it sticks and gets expanded. I personally think there are pros and cons to it, but ultimately what you gain being back there does make up for what you lose being on the other side. Plus you need to be in a lot better shape doing it. I've done CJ for some D1 college scrimmages and I really like the view and feel much safer back there, but I had an umpire to help on the stuff over the middle. You see any holds so much better especially since you can now see better what's happening with the hands. I am also able to see things like hands to the face much better. I miss that from the other side because I'm so focused on the feet/hands. For some reason I see things higher form the offensive side. Maybe it's because you are further back.

The cons are you lose a lot of your ability to help manage the stuff after the play. You are further away, especially on those 5-10 yard gains. I get a lot done with the defense talking to them before the snap. Things like ineligible linemen downfield gets much harder since the wings are solely responsible for that. They have enough to do on those plays. Those quick passes over the middle now also don't have an inside out view.

I have a good friend who is a referee in SW Minnesota (he does some Iowa and SD games too). He hates it and says none of the officials in his area like it. I would love to try it for a couple games to see how I like it. I got drilled twice in the first half of my game Friday night (Vinatieri said he saw one of them and we also had an NFL official there watching his daughter on the dance team). The offense ran a very good triple option so you never had any idea where the ball was. On the first one the QB faked the handoff and rolled right but cut up the middle quickly and suddenly appeared out of the pile. I tried to get to my left as he was running to my right but one of the pursuing defenders hit my shoulder. The runner scored on the play. The other was a well sold draw. The interior line took 2-3 steps back for a pass read. I'm moving toward the line of scrimmage like we are supposed to when the QB gave the ball to the RB on a delayed draw up the middle. I side stepped to my left and two defenders drilled me trying to get to the runner. I was in the middle of everything and had no place to go. My "block" sprung him for a 20-yard gain and the coach was pissed. I still felt that one the next morning. At that point I was voting to get moved to the other side.

[southcliffbison]

There are a couple plus sometimes local associations will do it as well. The Big Sky has done it for a few years with 7-man crews. I'm curious to see if it sticks and gets expanded. I personally think there are pros and cons to it, but ultimately what you gain being back there does make up for what you lose being on the other side. Plus you need to be in a lot better shape doing it. I've done CJ for some D1 college scrimmages and I really like the view and feel much safer back there, but I had an umpire to help on the stuff over the middle. You see any holds so much better especially since you can now see better what's happening with the hands. I am also able to see things like hands to the face much better. I miss that from the other side because I'm so focused on the feet/hands. For some reason I see things higher form the offensive side. Maybe it's because you are further back.

The cons are you lose a lot of your ability to help manage the stuff after the play. You are further away, especially on those 5-10 yard gains. I get a lot done with the defense talking to them before the snap. Things like ineligible linemen downfield gets much harder since the wings are solely responsible for that. They have enough to do on those plays. Those quick passes over the middle now also don't have an inside out view.

I have a good friend who is a referee in SW Minnesota (he does some Iowa and SD games too). He hates it and says none of the officials in his area like it. I would love to try it for a couple games to see how I like it. I got drilled twice in the first half of my game Friday night (Vinatieri said he saw one of them and we also had an NFL official there watching his daughter on the dance team). The offense ran a very good triple option so you never had any idea where the ball was. On the first one the QB faked the handoff and rolled right but cut up the middle quickly and suddenly appeared out of the pile. I tried to get to my left as he was running to my right but one of the pursuing defenders hit my shoulder. The runner scored on the play. The other was a well sold draw. The interior line took 2-3 steps back for a pass read. I'm moving toward the line of scrimmage like we are supposed to when the QB gave the ball to the RB on a delayed draw up the middle. I side stepped to my left and two defenders drilled me trying to get to the runner. I was in the middle of everything and had no place to go. My "block" sprung him for a 20-yard gain and the coach was pissed. I still felt that one the next morning. At that point I was voting to get moved to the other side.

I only got wiped out as an umpire behind the defense once this season; and it was in a JV game to boot !!!! What really helps out umpires behind the offense on those 5 to 10 yard runs is a very active young backjudge who knows his keys and CAN RUN !!! Did I mention "can run"? Unfortunately, what we are seeing are over-weight, middle-age men who are quite content to spend the game 40 yards back from the line of scrimmage in the middle of the field; and who only come close to the LOS during TO's and ends of quarters. Having youngsters as back judges is a real blessing and I thank them profusely for their efforts. End of rant.

[IndyBison]

I only got wiped out as an umpire behind the defense once this season; and it was in a JV game to boot !!!! What really helps out umpires behind the offense on those 5 to 10 yard runs is a very active young backjudge who knows his keys and CAN RUN !!! Did I mention "can run"? Unfortunately, what we are seeing are over-weight, middle-age men who are quite content to spend the game 40 yards back from the line of scrimmage in the middle of the field; and who only come close to the LOS during TO's and ends of quarters. Having youngsters as back judges is a real blessing and I thank them profusely for their efforts. End of rant.I wouldn't want the back judge coming up to get those spots. He's better staying back to mind the store from that side. It's best to keep the players boxed in. If the I goes in you still have the R to stay back.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk