More legislative shenanigans by Al Carlson

[GCWaters]

https://ndxplains.com/2017/04/21/al-carlson-attempts-to-force-ndsu-into-land-swap-which-would-cost-millions/


"It seems that NDSU owns some prime real estate on the Northwest corner of the intersection of Interstate 29 and 19th Avenue North in Fargo. A developer who holds an interest in a property to the west has been wanting NDSU to ‘swap’ their land with the less valuable land controlled by that developer. Appraisals of the two properties indicated that the NDSU land was initially worth around $4 million more than the other property. A later appraisal indicated that the differential had widened even more with NDSU’s land valuation rising even higher.

So, Al Carlson prepares an amendment to force the land swap. He presents this amendment despite knowledge of the vast difference in appraisals that are justified not only by location, but also because of drainage issues and the railroad crossing on the land further west.

As we’ve said before, nothing is by accident this late in the legislative session. It is all premeditated. One has to ask why Al Carlson would insist on a land swap that would cost NDSU, the public university in the city he represents, millions of dollars. What relationship does he have with the developer that would result in Carlson working on behalf of private interests over and above public interests? Is it just a coincidence the developer is a large, continuous, contributor to the NDGOP and Republican candidates?"

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

If you live in Al’s district, keep voting for him, and consider yourself to be a NDSU supporter, you need to pay closer attention.

[EndZoneQB]

ND voters, do something about this shit.

[tjbison]

sadly this will never reach the public news and if it does it will be DB's fault for not doing good business and poor leadership

[El_Chapo]

whos gonna start a recall petition?

[IzzyFlexion]

https://i.imgflip.com/1nndib.jpg

[WhoRepsTheLurker]

Such a wily wascal that AC is. When called out, its "just to generate discussion" (about anything that might benefit NDSU ...)

http://kfgo.com/news/articles/2017/apr/21/carlson-proposing-bill-amendment-that-would-force-ndsu-to-swap-land/

[Mr Meaty]

Such a wily wascal that AC is. When called out, its "just to generate discussion" (about anything that might benefit NDSU ...)

http://kfgo.com/news/articles/2017/apr/21/carlson-proposing-bill-amendment-that-would-force-ndsu-to-swap-land/
Just to create discussion means I got caught trying to slip something through at the twelfth hour.

[cbline]

Man, you just can't make this shit up.

[El_Chapo]

DemocraticPamela Anderson27.2%2,639****RepublicanAl CarlsonIncumbent26.7%2,590****RepublicanBette GrandeIncumbent24.2%2,347****DemocraticSheila Christensen21.8%2,113


oh Al was beat out by 1 girl...and dam near 2 others

[1993bison]

Man, you just can't make this shit up.
Yeah you can. If you think it is bad here imagine what it is like in Washington, DC(let's pass the bill to see what is in it) and other states.

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[bisonaudit]

Yeah you can. If you think it is bad here imagine what it is like in Washington, DC(let's pass the bill to see what is in it) and other states.

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You mean places with functioning ethics rules, disclosure requirements, and still some semblance of an adversarial media?

[El_Chapo]

Al barely won his seat last election

Democratic Green check mark transparent.pngPamela Anderson 27.2% 2,639
Republican Green check mark transparent.pngAl Carlson Incumbent 26.7% 2,590
Republican Bette Grande Incumbent 24.2% 2,347
Democratic Sheila Christensen 21.8% 2,113

[tony]

Yeah you can. If you think it is bad here imagine what it is like in Washington, DC(let's pass the bill to see what is in it) and other states.

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Don't kid yourself. It's worse in North Dakota than almost any other state.

[BYZEN]

Don't kid yourself. It's worse in North Dakota than almost any other state.

After all, Al even has his own personal column (blogger with a DUI and passion for DQ) in most of the state's newspapers. :facepalm:

[JMB]

Don't kid yourself. It's worse in North Dakota than almost any other state.

The benefits of single party rule, coupled with the old boys club.

[1993bison]

You mean places with functioning ethics rules, disclosure requirements, and still some semblance of an adversarial media?
Yeah and it works so well in DC that a guy like Alcee Hastings can be a US Rep

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[bisonaudit]

Yeah and it works so well in DC that a guy like Alcee Hastings can be a US Rep

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Are you contending that the people of Florida's 20th congressional district didn't know that they were voting for someone who'd been impeached?

[1993bison]

Are you contending that the people of Florida's 20th congressional district didn't know that they were voting for someone who'd been impeached?
Not at all. A certain people will over look past criminal activity all the while focusing on manufacturing scandals of their opponents.

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[bisonaudit]

Not at all. A certain people will over look past criminal activity all the while focusing on manufacturing scandals of their opponents.

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If that's your take away from certain people making the point, again, that North Dakota's regulatory mechanism are, at this point, purposefully, not equipped to deal with these issues, then we're done.

[North Side]

If you live in Al’s district, keep voting for him, and consider yourself to be a NDSU supporter, you need to pay closer attention.

I am donating to whoever runs against him. He is in district 41. Time for him to be done.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/districts/2013-2022/district-41

[BisonAccountant44]

I am donating to whoever runs against him. He is in district 41. Time for him to be done.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/districts/2013-2022/district-41
That's from 29 East to 25th st. and S 17th ave down to S 52nd ave for future reference.

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[tony]

I don't say this very often, but I'll be listening to McFeely this morning.

https://twitter.com/MikeMcFeelyWDAY/status/856508531511615489

One of the reasons that you want a two-party system is that it is supposed to guarantee that somebody will speak up about the other side's malfeasance... but, on a lot of issues, the opposition party is completely silent. In this case, it's because the opposition's mouthpiece supports legislation, no matter how evil, if it screws NDSU. I'm talking about Joel Heitkamp, for one, and Mike Jacobs as another. They could be hammering Big Al and company, but they are silent - and even supportive. Hell, they have themselves twisted up in knots so much that they blame NDSU for ND legislators being crooked.

Here are some facts:

1. A group of legislators tried to shut down a nursing program in Bismarck, and then said that what the amendment said wasn't what they were meaning to do. Liars.
2. A group of legislators tried to take another $3.5 million from NDSU for no other reason that NDSU was trying to serve the state. I'm guessing that they were pissed because if they could have put the nursing school on the table, then they could have used it to trade for something else and spent more money in the process.
3. UND's budget is bigger than NDSU's. But, somehow, NDSU's budget cut is $5 million deeper than UND's. Why? Because "fuck NDSU", that's why.
4. While every institution is getting drastic cuts, a group of legislators decided to increase UND's Medical School budget by fourteen percent.
5. Not satisfied with raising the Med School's budget by a sum nearly equal to Williston State's entire state general funding is, a group of legislators is trying to raid something called the Student Loan Trust Fund to the tune of $15 million for the benefit of UND's medical school.

So what's the reaction for Heitkamp and Mike Jacobs? Well, I don't know about the former, but Jacobs wrote this story: http://bismarcktribune.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/spotlight-hits-nursing-education/article_616b0b0d-1991-5caa-accc-b81a2e40c636.html


The fate of the Sanford program in the long term might not be decided ahead of this week’s deadline. A number of alternatives were suggested, including attaching it to Dickinson State University, where budget cuts have been deeper than at any other North Dakota college.

It’s too late to make that happen this session,” said House Majority Leader Al Carlson, R-Fargo, “but it’s something we should look at in the future.”

The Bismarck Tribune also ran an editorial suggesting the same solution, "Rent too damn high. Give it to Dickinson State." http://bismarcktribune.com/news/opinion/editorial/ndsu-needs-a-better-deal-with-sanford/article_29bd3ecf-e693-525f-a86f-06ac1ffa85b3.html


One possibility being floated is attaching the NDSU program to the nursing program at Dickinson State University.

[Christopher Moen]

I am donating to whoever runs against him. He is in district 41. Time for him to be done.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/districts/2013-2022/district-41

Why is he trying to trade land that is not in his district?


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[PattyBison]

Why is he trying to trade land that is not in his district?


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This is just a guess but his career as a contractor may have something to do with it.

[NDSUstudent]

Why is he trying to trade land that is not in his district?


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Al doesn't care about his district or the state for that matter, Al only cares about Al.

[Jay]

Starts at about the 4 minute mark

http://www.wday.com/radio/4255799-970-wday-demand-mike-mcfeely-show-ndsu-land-swap-rep-al-carlson-rep-pam-anderson-rep

[Bison"FANatic"]

So Mcfeely states NDSU land is valued at 12.4 Million and the land KJOS wanted to give NDSU is valued at 4.3 million.

8.1 Million Difference

KJOS did say they would throw in a few million cash.

Crooked AL and KJOS investments had been working on it for over a year. Someone needs to confront him on radio and ask him.

[THEsocalledfan]

So Mcfeely states NDSU land is valued at 12.4 Million and the land KJOS wanted to give NDSU is valued at 4.3 million.

8.1 Million Difference

KJOS did say they would throw in a few million cash.

Crooked AL and KJOS investments had been working on it for over a year. Someone needs to confront him on radio and ask him.

Perhaps Al is unaware that NDSU is owned by the people of North Dakota that he is supposed to represent? I mean, clearly, he must not be aware of this, so someone should let him know.

[Mr Meaty]

So Mcfeely states NDSU land is valued at 12.4 Million and the land KJOS wanted to give NDSU is valued at 4.3 million.

8.1 Million Difference

KJOS did say they would throw in a few million cash.

Crooked AL and KJOS investments had been working on it for over a year. Someone needs to confront him on radio and ask him.

I had emailed my Senator in Bismarck about this last week. He was checking on it. I have not heard back from him. This is such BS that Carlson would do this. Drain the Swamp....

[Bison"FANatic"]

The thing is that it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't run again and retires and it was one last thing to go after and screw NDSU and also line the pockets of a friend of his at the same time.

[Bison bison]

I'd like to commission a cartoon of Carlson bending Bresciani over saying. It's just to spur discussion!

[WePharm]

Al also last session reduced the oil extraction tax from 11.5% to 10% at the end of last session. This is costing the state 8 to 10 million a month, 200 million for the bienium. He bamboozles us with talk of getting rid of the triggers on oil taxes. Well he could just have gotten rid of the triggers and kept the extraction tax where it was. What would that additional 200 million have done for the state budget?. Also he refuses to use even just a few percent of the over 4 billion dollar legacy fund. How big a hit will NDSU have to take? But what do we do, we reelect fossils like him time and again and expect them to do the right thing. He will be able to say he didn't raise taxes, unfortunately counties, cities & school districts will have to pick up his tab.

[56BISON73]

Al also last session reduced the oil extraction tax from 11.5% to 10% at the end of last session. This is costing the state 8 to 10 million a month, 200 million for the bienium. He bamboozles us with talk of getting rid of the triggers on oil taxes. Well he could just have gotten rid of the triggers and kept the extraction tax where it was. What would that additional 200 million have done for the state budget?. Also he refuses to use even just a few percent of the over 4 billion dollar legacy fund. How big a hit will NDSU have to take? But what do we do, we reelect fossils like him time and again and expect them to do the right thing. He will be able to say he didn't raise taxes, unfortunately counties, cities & school districts will have to pick up his tab.

Why did they let him do it? Doesnt that have to be voted on?

[WePharm]

That's the really sad part, the rest of the fossils in the legislature voted for it!

[WePharm]

What this really shows is our budget problems in ND are self inflicted. Sure we can always find some places to save money but to hit higher ed in general and NDSU in particular with 20% cuts is untenable. Same with all those programs that help the least of us.

[Christopher Moen]

Al also last session reduced the oil extraction tax from 11.5% to 10% at the end of last session. This is costing the state 8 to 10 million a month, 200 million for the bienium. He bamboozles us with talk of getting rid of the triggers on oil taxes. Well he could just have gotten rid of the triggers and kept the extraction tax where it was. What would that additional 200 million have done for the state budget?. Also he refuses to use even just a few percent of the over 4 billion dollar legacy fund. How big a hit will NDSU have to take? But what do we do, we reelect fossils like him time and again and expect them to do the right thing. He will be able to say he didn't raise taxes, unfortunately counties, cities & school districts will have to pick up his tab.

Who benefits from cutting the oil extraction tax?


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[tjbison]

Who benefits from cutting the oil extraction tax?


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Oil companies

[Hammersmith]

Oil companies

And the legislators getting money from the oil companies for granting the cuts.

[ndsubison1]

Al needs to be run out

[Bison"FANatic"]

What this really shows is our budget problems in ND are self inflicted. Sure we can always find some places to save money but to hit higher ed in general and NDSU in particular with 20% cuts is untenable. Same with all those programs that help the least of us.

Nobody on here had a problem when it was double digit increases in funding for higher ed.

We also are in the middle of the worst Farm economy in decades and that absolutely trickles into Fargo and other cities and then add in the oil industry basically shutting down for the last two years and it was going to be a very very tough time. It is good for us to go through times like this though as it should weed out some of the bloat.

Don't get me wrong I to also believe that it was stupid to lower the production tax but we wouldn't be in a very good position even if we had left it alone but 200 million isn't that big of a drop in what about 5 billion in expected revenue.

[Bison bison]

What you're missing is that the reduction in income taxes and buyout of property taxes have resulted in structutal deficits to say nothing of the downturn in ag and oil.

[bisonaudit]

No one had the stones to leave all the other taxes where they were and actually charge the oil extractors enough to pay for the additional public costs they were causing or gtfo because the oil will be there when they're willing to work on our terms. Everyone thought they were going to be rich and the state was going to be set forever.

[NDSUstudent]

I still remember Al crying about how the evil ND residents were taking those poor defenseless little oil companies to the cleaners...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LJgyoXQmg

[MAKBison]

I still remember Al crying about how the evil ND residents were taking those poor defenseless little oil companies to the cleaners...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LJgyoXQmg

Do Monty's getting pissed at DB for not screwing over NDSU and the ND citizens have anything to do with Nesset, Hageroit, and Port's attacks? Do they coincide with Monty's call to big al to force a sell? Does actual $$$$ for these dirty deeds actual transfer from one ot another. A lot more questions need to be asked and looked at here. Will anyone in ND dare to dig deeper?

[WePharm]

Al's NDSU land swap was offered as an amendment in committee. The oil extraction tax reduction was put in at the very end last session. No public hearing, testimony, fiscal implications.

[ndsubison1]

Government forcing a land swap sounds like a terrible idea.

[Christopher Moen]

Unless Al is getting a huge kick-back from these oil companies, ND might have one of the dumbest elected politicians ever.

Maybe I see the cut if the oil companies promised to hire a TON more people so that state could recoup the losses by collecting more State Income Tax from those hired workers, but this is giving away free money.

This is so stupid that there has to be shady back room politics to legitimize it. As I previously stated in other threads, is this why there is a target on NDSU because they are bringing too much attention to the State?


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[CAS4127]

Why did they let him do it? Doesnt that have to be voted on?

Because if they didn't support his legislation, he would have made sure any they proposed would fail. Politics at its finest. We basically have a bunch of idiots out there. We really do.


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[Hammersmith]

Because if they didn't support his legislation, he would have made sure any they proposed would fail. Politics at its finest. We basically have a bunch of idiots out there. We really do.


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We have some bullies, a bunch of sycophants, and even more cowards.

[Hammersmith]

Why did they let him do it? Doesnt that have to be voted on?

Al is the house majority leader and the biggest bully in Bismarck. He's a slimy bastard who will do just about anything to destroy you if you stand up to him. His saving grace is that his intellect is nowhere near the level of his ego. He tries pushing things that he thinks will bring him to attention to the GOP Big Money and lead him to national office. But he keeps choosing the wrong things and they blow up in his face. Almost wish he'd win one of those fights and get the f--k out of our state.

[1993bison]

Why did they let him do it? Doesnt that have to be voted on?
No Al did it all by himself

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[1993bison]

And the legislators getting money from the oil companies for granting the cuts.
Yeah ok. Check out all tax rates etc in TX compared to ND and couple that with their existing well developed pipeline infrastructure. Watch were the investment money will go.....TX well before ND Wich will mean far less tax income, royalties etc for ND. It is a dynamic situation.

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[1993bison]

I still remember Al crying about how the evil ND residents were taking those poor defenseless little oil companies to the cleaners...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LJgyoXQmg
Do you have any idea how much money has been lost by oil companies in the last two years?

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[NDSUstudent]

Do you have any idea how much money has been lost by oil companies in the last two years?

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How much money did they make the decade before that? Oil is a bigtime boom/bust industry(especially in this state), taxes aren't going to change that reality.

[Bisonator98]

Do you have any idea how much money has been lost by oil companies in the last two years?

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Lost or just not making as much? They made a killing for way more then 2 years and I don't think they are hurting now either. I suppose you work in the industry or have mineral rights.

[bisonaudit]

Do you have any idea how much money has been lost by oil companies in the last two years?

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It's past time that the citizens of North Dakota bail them out.

[NorthernBison]

Yeah ok. Check out all tax rates etc in TX compared to ND and couple that with their existing well developed pipeline infrastructure. Watch were the investment money will go.....TX well before ND Wich will mean far less tax income, royalties etc for ND. It is a dynamic situation.

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Who cares? The oil isn't going anywhere and it sure as Hell won't be cheaper in the future. Let em drill in Texas. Eventually, they will be back.


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[WePharm]

Had the same tax rate since the 1980's. Was voted in by the people of ND not the legislature. We're still producing close to what it was several years ago. Price per barrel the real factor not tax rate. Just like every other business some oil companies are doing well & some not.

[El_Chapo]

Al is the house majority leader and the biggest bully in Bismarck. He's a slimy bastard who will do just about anything to destroy you if you stand up to him. His saving grace is that his intellect is nowhere near the level of his ego. He tries pushing things that he thinks will bring him to attention to the GOP Big Money and lead him to national office. But he keeps choosing the wrong things and they blow up in his face. Almost wish he'd win one of those fights and get the f--k out of our state.

>

yea right he lost to betty Grande and barely beat out 2 other ladies. he's a putz and a Pussy as I told him to his face

[cbline]

Do you have any idea how much money has been lost by oil companies in the last two years?

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If the oil companies were losing money, their share prices would be in the toilet. This is certainly not the case.

[NDSUstudent]

McFeely article about crooked Al's land swap deal....

http://www.inforum.com/opinion/columnists/4256325-mcfeely-ndsu-rejects-land-swap-miffing-carlson-and-developer

[Bison bison]

Also not too impressed with Bresciani.

You don't sell, you lease.

https://www.ndsu.edu/vpfa/csfc/planprinciples/

[Bison"FANatic"]

If the oil companies were losing money, their share prices would be in the toilet. This is certainly not the case.

Continental Resources one of the largest if not the largest in ND went from about a high of $79 in Apr 14 to a low of about $17 in Feb 15, I would call that the toilet when they put through the tax cut it has rebounded now to $43 today. The tax cut didn't bring it back though but their shares were in the toilet when it was passed.

The thing is even if we hadn't cut taxes it would not be helping us all that much now as it would only add about 4% to our budget, It wouldn't save higher Ed, it wouldn't save property taxes, it wouldn't save health and human services, it wouldn't save any other group or entity that wants money right now. It is a very small drop in the bucket but everyone points to it being a huge gusher flowing money in and the savior to all our problems. Don't get me wrong I think the cut was stupid and how it was done even worse but in reality its not that big of a deal to the bottom line.

[Bison bison]

It is far from insignificant.

It dropped the tax 1.5%.

A million barrels a day at $40 is $220 million per year in tax revenue lost.

[runtheoption]

McFeely article about crooked Al's land swap deal....

http://www.inforum.com/opinion/columnists/4256325-mcfeely-ndsu-rejects-land-swap-miffing-carlson-and-developer

Al trying to paint Bresciani as the bad guy...typical Al BS. Port will have a blog post soon doing the same thing.

For the love of God, if you live in Al's district, vote for someone else.

[1993bison]

It is far from insignificant.

It dropped the tax 1.5%.

A million barrels a day at $40 is $220 million per year in tax revenue lost.
Nice analysis. Are you assuming everything stays the same if tax rates are cut?

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[Bison bison]

Nice analysis. Are you assuming everything stays the same if tax rates are cut?

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For a back of the envelope estimate on a 1.5% tax cut, absolutely.

[Son of a Bison]

Real hypocrisy here. Complain about NDSU nursing program and their rent rate and then try to force a below market deal.

Heard UND has a golf course for swap/sale. Maybe force a sale to Sanford to replace Altru.

[Bison bison]

I think that one reason the legislature tried to pass the pornography device bill was so that we wouldn't know what a dirty mother f#cker looks like.

[1998braves64]

It is far from insignificant.

It dropped the tax 1.5%.

A million barrels a day at $40 is $220 million per year in tax revenue lost.

The tax that got changed also previously allowed the oil companies to not pay ANY taxes if the price of oil dipped below $50 or whatever it was. So if that had hit we'd been with no taxes the last 2 years... can't forget about that nugget. We'd be in a lot worse shape right now. Obviously that came as a sacrifice to time period of whenever it gets back above $90-100/barrel again. Or I guess even now $65-75 that makes it very profitable for them again.

I'm like fanatic I didn't like that it had to go down or how it was implemented but oil companies weren't going to give that no taxes trigger up unless they got something in return unfortunately imo.

[Bison bison]

The tax that got changed also previously allowed the oil companies to not pay ANY taxes if the price of oil dipped below $50 or whatever it was. So if that had hit we'd been with no taxes the last 2 years... can't forget about that nugget. We'd be in a lot worse shape right now. Obviously that came as a sacrifice to time period of whenever it gets back above $90-100/barrel again. Or I guess even now $65-75 that makes it very profitable for them again.

Yeah, because taxes can only go down. All they had to do was remove the trigger which the legislature themselves created biennia earlier, a policy which makes next to ZERO sense economically.

[bisonaudit]

Yeah, because taxes can only go down. All they had to do was remove the trigger which the legislature themselves created biennia earlier, a policy which makes next to ZERO sense economically.

Less than zero economic sense.

[bisonaudit]

The tax that got changed also previously allowed the oil companies to not pay ANY taxes if the price of oil dipped below $50 or whatever it was. So if that had hit we'd been with no taxes the last 2 years... can't forget about that nugget. We'd be in a lot worse shape right now. Obviously that came as a sacrifice to time period of whenever it gets back above $90-100/barrel again. Or I guess even now $65-75 that makes it very profitable for them again.

I'm like fanatic I didn't like that it had to go down or how it was implemented but oil companies weren't going to give that no taxes trigger up unless they got something in return unfortunately imo.

"The oil companies weren't going to give up the no tax trigger"?!? What the fuck does that even mean? They don't get to order off the fucking menu. They don't have a vote. Weren't going to give up the trigger. :facepalm:

[ndsubison1]

Al trying to paint Bresciani as the bad guy...typical Al BS. Port will have a blog post soon doing the same thing.

For the love of God, if you live in Al's district, vote for someone else.

I approve this message

[TransAmBison]

McFeely article about crooked Al's land swap deal....

http://www.inforum.com/opinion/columnists/4256325-mcfeely-ndsu-rejects-land-swap-miffing-carlson-and-developerWow...Carlson seems pretty bitter about getting called out. I guarantee you if NDSU had agreed, and open records request would be out in the public for all to see. Pretty easy to see which side is lying. BMG!!!!

[THEsocalledfan]

Wow...Carlson seems pretty bitter about getting called out. I guarantee you if NDSU had agreed, and open records request would be out in the public for all to see. Pretty easy to see which side is lying. BMG!!!!

That quote of "that's how they operate" is all you have to know to realize Big Al is a tool. Big Al, you are on the same team as NDSU, not the developer.

[Mr. Burgundy]

The amount of open record requests that Rob Port is doing only on NDSU is absolutely UNREAL. WHat if NDSU had cut programs, pass the buck to other students, made student athletes beg for their sport, etc. COuld you imagine what would have been done. But since it was UND...it cool. Just a disaster, and Al Carlson is a damn nightmare. Guy is a power hungry disaster for our state.

[Christopher Moen]

The amount of open record requests that Rob Port is doing only on NDSU is absolutely UNREAL. WHat if NDSU had cut programs, pass the buck to other students, made student athletes beg for their sport, etc. COuld you imagine what would have been done. But since it was UND...it cool. Just a disaster, and Al Carlson is a damn nightmare. Guy is a power hungry disaster for our state.

Could an open request record be conducted on Rob and his puppet master(s) if he is being paid by government officials?


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[bisonaudit]

Could an open request record be conducted on Rob and his puppet master(s) if he is being paid by government officials?


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Legislators aren't subject to open records requests and they can do whatever they please with campaign contributions. I don't know who's paying Port now but before The Forum it used to be the Kochs.

[Christopher Moen]

Legislators aren't subject to open records requests and they can do whatever they please with campaign contributions. I don't know who's paying Port now but before The Forum it used to be the Kochs.

So not all government related business is held to the same rules and standards? From an outsider's point of view, there's a lost fishiness going on in the State Government of North Dakota. Seems like there is no checks and balances.


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[dufferole]

There are lots of checks to the legislators.

[MAKBison]

Legislators aren't subject to open records requests and they can do whatever they please with campaign contributions. I don't know who's paying Port now but before The Forum it used to be the Kochs.

why would the Kochs pay him.... Port is not really a conservative.?.?.?

[Green1]

why would the Kochs pay him.... Port is not really a conservative.?.?.?



5 trips to Dairy Queen/day for the Portly one. That's being conservative.

[Bisonator98]

Amazing how the news stations have no interest in exposing dirty Al for what he is, apparently he isn't the only one with hands in other peoples pockets.....

[Bisonguy]

So not all government related business is held to the same rules and standards? From an outsider's point of view, there's a lost fishiness going on in the State Government of North Dakota. Seems like there is no checks and balances.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The legislative ethics committee oversees this sort of stuff. If North Dakota had one.

[Bisonguy]

Continental Resources one of the largest if not the largest in ND went from about a high of $79 in Apr 14 to a low of about $17 in Feb 15, I would call that the toilet when they put through the tax cut it has rebounded now to $43 today. The tax cut didn't bring it back though but their shares were in the toilet when it was passed.



Continental Resources had a 2:1 split on Sept. 11, 2014. I'd say that and oil prices being cut in half had more to do with their stock prices than the tax cut.

[1993bison]

Continental Resources had a 2:1 split on Sept. 11, 2014. I'd say that and oil prices being cut in half had more to do with their stock prices than the tax cut.
You missed the point. Higher taxes make it more difficult to do business in our state which has more challenges in this play than say West Texas.

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[56BISON73]

The legislative ethics committee oversees this sort of stuff. If North Dakota had one.

Didnt they vote it down saying they didnt need one?

[BisonAccountant44]

Didnt they vote it down saying they didnt need one?
Did they even vote on it?

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[56BISON73]

Did they even vote on it?

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I think you are correct.

[El_Chapo]

the ND legislators are ruining NDSU

why are they bailing out dickinson State??

I talked to 1 higher up at ndsu.. he let go of 4 professors in his dept. says its ugly and that if the alumni/fanbase doesnt stop the ND LEG...NDSU will never recover

[bisonaudit]

Didnt they vote it down saying they didnt need one?

Every session for the last 6 years, at least. I'm not sure it even gets out of committee, but the bill gets filed, its news for one cycle, maybe two, and they kill it.

[tjbison]

You missed the point. Higher taxes make it more difficult to do business in our state which has more challenges in this play than say West Texas.

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Lol....it's oil, they were not leaving no matter what the TAX was

[IzzyFlexion]

Amazing how the news stations have no interest in exposing dirty Al for what he is, apparently he isn't the only one with hands in other peoples pockets.....

https://static.miraheze.org/allthetropeswiki/9/9e/Cementshoes.jpg

[NDSU1980]

Every session for the last 6 years, at least. I'm not sure it even gets out of committee, but the bill gets filed, its news for one cycle, maybe two, and they kill it.
IN ND all bills have to come out of committee and go to the chamber floor and voted on unless they are withdrawn by the sponsor. The committee can give it a "Do not pass", recommendation, but it still goes to the floor for a final vote. No pigeon holing bills in ND like they can do in Washington.

[bisonaudit]

IN ND all bills have to come out of committee and go to the chamber floor and voted on unless they are withdrawn by the sponsor. The committee can give it a "Do not pass", recommendation, but it still goes to the floor for a final vote. No pigeon holing bills in ND like they can do in Washington.

That's great news. Everyone opposed is on the record that way.

[WePharm]

Yes we really needed to lower the tax rate 13% (from 11.5% to 10%) for poor Continental. Harold Hamm the president is only worth 11Billion and but the poor guy had to give his ex wife 995 million because he couldn't keep his pants on. He also bought the fancy bus that Gov. Schafer drove around in wanting to lower the tax rate. Sorry for all you that can't figure it out, its the price of oil. The share price of these companies was down because oil was $20 a barrel. Now its close to $50. Who do you think they donate to?

End result Al gave out a big oil tax give away. As a leader he refused to use even a very small percentage of the Legacy fund (what is it for after all?). Just using those two would have made a budget disaster much more manageable. Then he tries to totally screw over NDSU. My heavens, I thought legislators were supposed to be working for us. Guess I'm wrong

[runtheoption]

You missed the point. Higher taxes make it more difficult to do business in our state which has more challenges in this play than say West Texas.

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East Texas gonna be all "cash me ousside..."

[reformedUNDfan]

Its amazing that we were producing 3% of world oil supply for half a decade and have effectively nothing to show for it. We owe these companies nothing. Expropriate their assets in North Dakota

[Mr Meaty]

Its amazing that we were producing 3% of world oil supply for half a decade and have effectively nothing to show for it. We owe these companies nothing. Expropriate their assets in North Dakota

There is like $3 Billion in the Legacy fund. Some day we will use it or the earnings from it.

[bisonaudit]

There is like $3 Billion in the Legacy fund. Some day we will use it or the earnings from it.

$4.3 billion.

[Bison bison]

They are a bunch of damn fools.

Oil got bad, it's better, but likely at its new norm. Ag can get a whole lot worse.

If they had left income taxes where they were, stayed the hell out of local property taxes, eliminated the trigger, and pulled ~ 10% of the legacy things would be hunky dory.

Instead, they have made cuts that likely will never balance out with expenditures and 2019 could be absolute hell for some parts of the state.

I look forward to saying I told you so to my coworkers who thought I was an anti-education ass for being against West Fargo's new swimming pool and hockey arena. We are now going to have to pick up that $45 million tab ourselves and hopefully build two more elementary schools and possibly a third middle school and high school ($120 million). Thank god the metro economy is still doing well or it could be a flipping death spiral.

[1993bison]

Its amazing that we were producing 3% of world oil supply for half a decade and have effectively nothing to show for it. We owe these companies nothing. Expropriate their assets in North Dakota
Nothing to show for it? You should see the bank accounts of some of my relatives!

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[runtheoption]

Its amazing that we were producing 3% of world oil supply for half a decade and have effectively nothing to show for it. We owe these companies nothing. Expropriate their assets in North Dakota

Seems to be working well for Venezuela.

[HerdBot]

Its amazing that we were producing 3% of world oil supply for half a decade and have effectively nothing to show for it. We owe these companies nothing. Expropriate their assets in North Dakota


There is like $3 Billion in the Legacy fund. Some day we will use it or the earnings from it.

Well... we greatly expanded small towns that are now ghost towns and still have to maintain the roads. We got a huge population boost of many losers who commit crimes. We got a state budget that is way bigger than it was before. We got funding cut from universities because of over spending in other areas. We got got mega pollution.

Of course many Beverly Hillbilly millionaires were made so that's a good deal.

[IzzyFlexion]

Its amazing that we were producing 3% of world oil supply for half a decade and have effectively nothing to show for it. We owe these companies nothing. Expropriate their assets in North Dakota

Need a little help here. Tried Googling this but was unsuccessful.................

Who was the brilliant legislator that said (a few years ago) (paraphrased) How much money do we really need?

IIRC, this was the moment in North Dakota's recent history when the oil extraction tax was reduced.

Way to be a visionary dude..........whoever you are.

[reformedUNDfan]

Nothing to show for it? You should see the bank accounts of some of my relatives!

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that'll balance the state books

[cbline]

Need a little help here. Tried Googling this but was unsuccessful.................

Who was the brilliant legislator that said (a few years ago) (paraphrased) How much money do we really need?

IIRC, this was the moment in North Dakota's recent history when the oil extraction tax was reduced.

Way to be a visionary dude..........whoever you are.

That was Al Carlson. He said it on Gap Tooth Boy's show, but here is McFeely's analysis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LJgyoXQmg

[reformedUNDfan]

Seems to be working well for Venezuela.

thats not exactly venezula's problem, and our case is nothing like theirs in any case.

What we should have done was setup a state sanctioned oil producers coop. Woulda made more money, retained the profits, and left us with a legacy of North Dakota owned capital infrastructure. Instead we own nothing but a minor cut of the profits

[MAKBison]

Amazing how the news stations have no interest in exposing dirty Al for what he is, apparently he isn't the only one with hands in other peoples pockets.....

If the Mcf , did not have such a hard on for Crooked al, the foolem would not cover it either.

You could tell that the foolum is holding Mcf back. So much more could be said about this so many more dots could be connected.

[IzzyFlexion]

Its amazing that we were producing 3% of world oil supply for half a decade and have effectively nothing to show for it. We owe these companies nothing. Expropriate their assets in North Dakota


That was Al Carlson. He said it on Gap Tooth Boy's show, but here is McFeely's analysis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LJgyoXQmg

Thanks..........

I thought that that was who it was but didn't want to type it without knowing for sure.

How in the eff does that scream anything other than kickbacks from big oil? In my opinion, there could no other motivation for a proposal that stupid.

[tony]

That was Al Carlson. He said it on Gap Tooth Boy's show, but here is McFeely's analysis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_LJgyoXQmg

Well, Heitkamp would've taken all the cut to the oil extraction tax and put it into starting a state-run oil refinery... so the state finances have been even worse off under that scenario.

[1998braves64]

Nothing to show for it? You should see the bank accounts of some of my relatives!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


that'll balance the state books

Will be interesting because there are a lot of people in the 40-80 year old range out there that came out of the baby boomers children of the dirty 30s/WWII marriages, and many of those "farmers" had to go through the rough years of the 80s in the ag climate that killed off a lot of family farms, that don't spend extravagantly. Now whether those decedents get a bit more loosey goosey with their money remains to be seen. But no doubt some of the royalty money is staying in the area, seems like every day see someone buying what used to be a local bank out that direction... probably a reason for that.

That said money there alone isn't going to balance the state books, but it definitely helps on income taxes and sales taxes, considering some of that money is actually staying in the state.

[tjbison]

Well... we greatly expanded small towns that are now ghost towns and still have to maintain the roads. We got a huge population boost of many losers who commit crimes. We got a state budget that is way bigger than it was before. We got funding cut from universities because of over spending in other areas. We got got mega pollution.

Of course many Beverly Hillbilly millionaires were made so that's a good deal.

Do you have any direct knowledge of the boom or is it just what your read/hear

[unbison]

Do you have any direct knowledge of the boom or is it just what your read/hear

Cmon man do you even have to ask

[1993bison]

Well, Heitkamp would've taken all the cut to the oil extraction tax and put it into starting a state-run oil refinery... so the state finances have been even worse off under that scenario.
Don't forget about the free milk for needy school kids program.

Wasn't there talk about using the oil money for free college tuition?

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[Hammerhead]

If the price of crude oil goes up, fuel prices go up the same day. When crude oil goes down, it takes weeks for fuel prices to go down.



Do you have any idea how much money has been lost by oil companies in the last two years?

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[Bison"FANatic"]

If the price of crude oil goes up, fuel prices go up the same day. When crude oil goes down, it takes weeks for fuel prices to go down.

Isn't that the truth, The spot price on gas has dropped $.20 in the last 2 weeks but when I filled up yesterday it was about the same price at the pump. It will usually run about .40 sometimes up to .60 over the spot, we are at closer to .65. It should be flirting with sub $2.00 at pump soon if it stays low and supplies work back through system. It will just take one station to drop it and the rest will follow.

[1993bison]

If the price of crude oil goes up, fuel prices go up the same day. When crude oil goes down, it takes weeks for fuel prices to go down.
It's a conspiracy! Why isn't there a blue ribbon panel of senior us senators investigating?

Did you ever notice that when wheat prices fluctuate bread prices don't? How about milk? Dairy farmers are getting screwed by real low prices but I haven't seen milk, cheese or yogurt prices drop?

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[NDSUstudent]

Crooked Al is upset with NDSU...

http://www.inforum.com/news/4258651-mcfeely-heads-ndsu-al-carlson-mad-you

[El_Chapo]

Idiot Al... says he is running for re election HAHAHA.

he got beat by 1 woman.. and almost 2 others. All NDSU alum/fans better make sure he loses

[1993bison]

Is Al a UND grad?

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[Mr Meaty]

Is Al a UND grad?

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Biography
City: Fargo
•Contractor; Partner, Up North Recreation
•NDSCS; Secondary Education, NDSU
•Past President, F-M Homebuilders Association; Past President, North Dakota Association of Builders; State Chairman, State Legislative Leaders Foundation; St. Anthony’s Catholic Church
•Married (Sharon); 3 children; 12 grandchildren
•House since 1993

[tony]

Crooked Al is upset with NDSU...

http://www.inforum.com/news/4258651-mcfeely-heads-ndsu-al-carlson-mad-you

When hasn't he been upset with NDSU?

Got make some sacrifices at the altar of his enormous ego, I guess.

[bisonmike2]

Crooked Al is upset with NDSU...

http://www.inforum.com/news/4258651-mcfeely-heads-ndsu-al-carlson-mad-you

Great article by McFeely. I would love to be a fly on his UND hockey sweater that's hanging on the wall of his office when he reads that.

[Bisonguy]

Great article by McFeely. I would love to be a fly on his UND hockey sweater that's hanging on the wall of his office when he reads that.

Is it really a hockey sweater, or just a worn out "It's the Law!" t-shirt?


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[1993bison]

Al is a big time rookie and better step up his game is he ever wants to be taken seriously enough to hang with the crooks in Washington DC.

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[bisonaudit]

Al is a big time rookie and better step up his game is he ever wants to be taken seriously enough to hang with the crooks in Washington DC.

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Come on, the bar he has to clear is Kevin Cramer. He's qualified.

[Bison"FANatic"]

Come on, the bar he has to clear is Kevin Cramer. He's qualified.

Crazy right????? I mean Kevin Cramer only received about 70% of the vote in the last election.

[oldmantutters]

Say what you will about Kevin Cramer (and it seems there is a lot to say), but he has made himself more available to constituents than most politicians.

[tony]

Say what you will about Kevin Cramer (and it seems there is a lot to say), but he has made himself more available to constituents than most politicians.

Also Kramer is national... don't want to get into one of those national-partisan-political conversational death spirals.

[oldmantutters]

Also Kramer is national... don't want to get into one of those national-partisan-political conversational death spirals.
Nope didn't mean to take it down a partisan road at all. In fact I don't really know much about Cramer other than over the past couple months he has held multiple town halls which seems to be rare in this day and age.

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[Christopher Moen]

http://www.inforum.com/sites/default/files/styles/full_1000/public/field/image/Gunfight.jpg?itok=U78hNf7R

[HerdBot]

Hot Carl is running for Fargo City Commission. He just won't go away. He tried in West Fargo and lost. Now try Fargo

[PickedBess]

https://kfgo.com/2022/04/26/565834

Al is most likely in favor of this.

As you know the state wants to increase the threshold from a simple majority to 60% to change the states constitution.
I guess I didn't know. Has every vote we've had on initiated measures changed the ND Construction?

When your an all Blue State or Red State you already have enough or to much power. The people should not have a harder time to make law then the politicians.

In Washington it looks like the fillabuster will soon be history. They want a simple majority for them. 50 plus one for the politicians 60 or is it 61 for the people?

Power grab, hypocrisy

No to this measure.

[HerdBot]

https://kfgo.com/2022/04/26/565834

Al is most likely in favor of this.

As you know the state wants to increase the threshold from a simple majority to 60% to change the states constitution.
I guess I didn't know. Has every vote we've had on initiated measures changed the ND Construction?

When your an all Blue State or Red State you already have enough or to much power. The people should not have a harder time to make law then the politicians.

In Washington it looks like the fillabuster will soon be history. They want a simple majority for them. 50 plus one for the politicians 60 or is it 61 for the people?

Power grab, hypocrisy

No to this measure.

It's similar to the pissing on the will of the people measure that failed last time

[bisonaudit]

https://kfgo.com/2022/04/26/565834

Al is most likely in favor of this.

As you know the state wants to increase the threshold from a simple majority to 60% to change the states constitution.
I guess I didn't know. Has every vote we've had on initiated measures changed the ND Construction?

When your an all Blue State or Red State you already have enough or to much power. The people should not have a harder time to make law then the politicians.

In Washington it looks like the fillabuster will soon be history. They want a simple majority for them. 50 plus one for the politicians 60 or is it 61 for the people?

Power grab, hypocrisy

No to this measure.

Filibuster going away would improve democracy. Reforming how we are represented in the Senate would improve it more.

Of course the filibuster is merely a Senate rule which the Senate can change at anytime whereas making the body more representative is substantially more difficult.

[Hammerhead]

Filibuster going away would improve democracy. Reforming how we are represented in the Senate would improve it more.

Of course the filibuster is merely a Senate rule which the Senate can change at anytime whereas making the body more representative is substantially more difficult.

Ten senators represent the 5 most populous states with 123.4 million while ten senators also represent 3.4 million people. Even if you go to the top and bottom ten states in population, the difference in population/senator is 20:1

[gabisonfan]

I am certain the rural states would want the people in the major cities to determine issues pertaining to them. Oh wait we do, it's called the House of Representatives.

[bisonaudit]

I am certain the rural states would want the people in the major cities to determine issues pertaining to them. Oh wait we do, it's called the House of Representatives.

Sorry, but the amount of land you’re surrounded by shouldn’t get you extra voting power.

Also, our system, roughly speaking, gives each legislative body and the executive a veto over the others so the House of Representatives can do precisely nothing by itself. Effectively, we are governed by the least representative body not the most (which is arguably the court, now and not even the senate, but that’s a whole other thing).

[Hammerhead]

I am certain the rural states would want the people in the major cities to determine issues pertaining to them. Oh wait we do, it's called the House of Representatives.

Should the N.D. legislature have one senator from every county instead of one per legislative district?

[fanbison]

https://kfgo.com/2022/04/26/565834

Al is most likely in favor of this.

As you know the state wants to increase the threshold from a simple majority to 60% to change the states constitution.
I guess I didn't know. Has every vote we've had on initiated measures changed the ND Construction?

When your an all Blue State or Red State you already have enough or to much power. The people should not have a harder time to make law then the politicians.

In Washington it looks like the fillabuster will soon be history. They want a simple majority for them. 50 plus one for the politicians 60 or is it 61 for the people?

Power grab, hypocrisy

No to this measure.


Currently ND has two types of initiated measures: one for statutes (state laws) and one for constitutional amendments. Example the Marijuana initiated measures are statutory; the term limits initiated measure is constitutional. Current law requires only a simple majority for both types of initiated measures. The proposal to 60% majority is for the constitutional measures only. I am not sure at this point where I personally stand on this issue; but my gut tells me there should be a higher standard to change our ND Constitution than to pass a statutory law.

[bisonaudit]

Currently ND has two types of initiated measures: one for statutes (state laws) and one for constitutional amendments. Example the Marijuana initiated measures are statutory; the term limits initiated measure is constitutional. Current law requires only a simple majority for both types of initiated measures. The proposal to 60% majority is for the constitutional measures only. I am not sure at this point where I personally stand on this issue; but my gut tells me there should be a higher standard to change our ND Constitution than to pass a statutory law.

That would be my gut as well, however my second thought is that there are many things enshrined in the state constitution that aren’t really on the level of what you think about being in the federal constitution such as the locations of educational institutions, penitentiary, hospital. Politically expedient stuff from 140 years ago that aren’t fundamental to the structure and operation of the government that maybe shouldn’t require a super majority to undue. So I’d want to study it much more closely before voting for such a change.

[PickedBess]

Election night looking at the candidates the Republicans and Democrats run. Repubs almost always smart. They run people that are recognizable. People who were on TV sports stars. Trump Oz Walker. Ronald Reagan movie star then radio commentator before running for President. Dems run Black women in the south. I'm sure these women are smart. Can they be elected? Dems need to run actors and sport stars to. I guess they have a death wish.

Did they just say Oz lost. I'm surprised.
Anyway you nominate people who are electable first smart second. It should be the other way around but it is what it is.

[PickedBess]

Working with Bob he'd say to me don't come crying to me, When.
If it isn't broke don't fix it.
Is the current ballot measure system broken?
No it's served us well.
One party governments
One newspaper
One radio voice
One TV owner
No competition

If this gets passed in 2 3 years when most forget this there will be more power grabbing.

Who talks about Hong Kong or Afghanistan.

It was Mussolini who said this is how you take away rights. It's liked plucking a chicken. One feather at a time and they don't notice.

No on this it's not broke.

[THEsocalledfan]

Sorry, but the amount of land you’re surrounded by shouldn’t get you extra voting power.

So you disagree with the founding fathers? Yep, dumb, dumb group......but in today's day and age, folks don't understand how this was a compromise since they don't understand the concept of compromise.

[El_Chapo]

wuhan missed this guy?

[bisonaudit]

So you disagree with the founding fathers? Yep, dumb, dumb group......but in today's day and age, folks don't understand how this was a compromise since they don't understand the concept of compromise.

Of course I understand that it was a compromise. I also understand that it was a compromise forged 245 years ago when the only people with political power were white male property owners and that some of that property consisted of other human beings. I stated explicitly that changing the way were represented in the Senate would be very difficult if not impossible. I get it. Jefferson’s “agrarian” vision is firmly enshrined and the amendment process makes it nearly impossible to change because what would possibly induce rural states to voluntarily surrender their power, right? Let’s just be plain about the system we actually have. It’s a veto-ocracy that’s currently ruled by a West Virginia DINOsaur.

[The_Sicatoka]

... my gut tells me there should be a higher standard to change our ND Constitution than to pass a statutory law.

100% agreement with need of a higher standard.
Constitutional changes should not be at the whim of 50%+1.

[The_Sicatoka]

If you don't like how the (Federal) House and Senate are constituted, change the Constitution. There's a defined process for that. And when your State became a State you agreed to all of it.

Until then, the Senate is set up so the urbans don't overrun the rural. The urbans get the House to do that.

Frankly, if I were to make a change to the make-up of the Senate, I'd repeal (by the process) the 17th Amendment: No more popular vote for Senators; popular vote for House reps only. Go back to Senators picked by state legislatures. That would force folks to look at who they are sending to Bismarck even harder.

[HerdBot]

Currently ND has two types of initiated measures: one for statutes (state laws) and one for constitutional amendments. Example the Marijuana initiated measures are statutory; the term limits initiated measure is constitutional. Current law requires only a simple majority for both types of initiated measures. The proposal to 60% majority is for the constitutional measures only. I am not sure at this point where I personally stand on this issue; but my gut tells me there should be a higher standard to change our ND Constitution than to pass a statutory law.

The irony is they only need 50% and 1 vote to make it a 60%

The North Dakota Constitution isn't the same as the US Constitution in my mind. Lots of stupid shit in there already like requiring a certain number of colleges

It's better than the last attempt but if they are going to require 60%, they should lower the number of required signatures from double to 10% more than a statutory

People knock Marcys Law, but it got 62% yes.

[Yote 53]

Something similar in South Dakota Amendment C requiring a three-fifths (60%) supermajority vote for the approval of ballot measures placed on the ballot through citizen initiative or referred to the ballot by the state legislature that increase taxes or fees or that would require the state to appropriate $10 million or more in the first five fiscal years.

I don't have a problem with this as it applies to to citizen referendums and applies explicitly to tax increases or large state appropriations. When we're talking money like that the threshold should be higher than 50/50. The Legislature still has the power to pass budgets, taxes, etc. at 50%+1. We have a big issue in South Dakota with outside money coming in and dumpling huge money to push initiatives on public referendums. Why? I have no idea. To effect "change" to a population that is really fine with the way things are.

Irony is we passed both medicinal and recreational marijuana referendums and those got hung up or overturned by State Courts denying the will of the people. Those wouldn't even fall under Amendment C. So even when we vote for something the Powers That Be will still find a way to deny you. Like Noem, but she's wrong for what she's doing there. The more popular she gets the more the haters in this state are becoming vocal.

[bisonaudit]

Something similar in South Dakota Amendment C requiring a three-fifths (60%) supermajority vote for the approval of ballot measures placed on the ballot through citizen initiative or referred to the ballot by the state legislature that increase taxes or fees or that would require the state to appropriate $10 million or more in the first five fiscal years.

I don't have a problem with this as it applies to to citizen referendums and applies explicitly to tax increases or large state appropriations. When we're talking money like that the threshold should be higher than 50/50. The Legislature still has the power to pass budgets, taxes, etc. at 50%+1. We have a big issue in South Dakota with outside money coming in and dumpling huge money to push initiatives on public referendums. Why? I have no idea. To effect "change" to a population that is really fine with the way things are.

Irony is we passed both medicinal and recreational marijuana referendums and those got hung up or overturned by State Courts denying the will of the people. Those wouldn't even fall under Amendment C. So even when we vote for something the Powers That Be will still find a way to deny you. Like Noem, but she's wrong for what she's doing there. The more popular she gets the more the haters in this state are becoming vocal.

$10 million dollars seems like a crazy low threshold.

[PickedBess]

100%.
Constitutional changes should not be at the whim of 50%+1.

Boo Boo Boo

[PickedBess]

The_Sicatoka UNDBIZ cx500d

From the Land Downunder

[Bisonator98]

Of course I understand that it was a compromise. I also understand that it was a compromise forged 245 years ago when the only people with political power were white male property owners and that some of that property consisted of other human beings. I stated explicitly that changing the way were represented in the Senate would be very difficult if not impossible. I get it. Jefferson’s “agrarian” vision is firmly enshrined and the amendment process makes it nearly impossible to change because what would possibly induce rural states to voluntarily surrender their power, right? Let’s just be plain about the system we actually have. It’s a veto-ocracy that’s currently ruled by a West Virginia DINOsaur.

You can always leave if you don't like the system. ;)

[bisonaudit]

You can always leave if you don't like the system. ;)

I’ve done that once already. If there’s a next time it would have to be to a place where I’m free to complain about it’s flaws. That was something I really missed.

[HerdBot]

Something similar in South Dakota Amendment C requiring a three-fifths (60%) supermajority vote for the approval of ballot measures placed on the ballot through citizen initiative or referred to the ballot by the state legislature that increase taxes or fees or that would require the state to appropriate $10 million or more in the first five fiscal years.

I don't have a problem with this as it applies to to citizen referendums and applies explicitly to tax increases or large state appropriations. When we're talking money like that the threshold should be higher than 50/50. The Legislature still has the power to pass budgets, taxes, etc. at 50%+1. We have a big issue in South Dakota with outside money coming in and dumpling huge money to push initiatives on public referendums. Why? I have no idea. To effect "change" to a population that is really fine with the way things are.

Irony is we passed both medicinal and recreational marijuana referendums and those got hung up or overturned by State Courts denying the will of the people. Those wouldn't even fall under Amendment C. So even when we vote for something the Powers That Be will still find a way to deny you. Like Noem, but she's wrong for what she's doing there. The more popular she gets the more the haters in this state are becoming vocal.

Fact. More people voted to legalize weed than voted for Noem. I like her general philosophy but she really fucked up on that one. I think she's positioning herself for a VP run not realizing outside of her little world in SD, a huge majority of the nation supports legalization now. It's closer to 70% nationwide. She pretends she's all about freedom but is acting like an authoritarian when it comes to cannabis.

She tried to stop medical marijuana but failed. She fucked up on the recreational big time. Claiming people didn't know what they were voting on is ridiculous

[ByeSonBusiness]

Changing the State Constitution can be raised to 60%, fine by me. The US Senate has a good gig going. Can be frustrating at times but I like the filibuster rule. Truth is, most of the Senators do too. Many claim they don't that actually do.

[Bison Dan]

So you disagree with the founding fathers? Yep, dumb, dumb group......but in today's day and age, folks don't understand how this was a compromise since they don't understand the concept of compromise.

100% agree - why would anyone in ND want to be controlled by NY and CA.

[THEsocalledfan]

Of course I understand that it was a compromise. I also understand that it was a compromise forged 245 years ago when the only people with political power were white male property owners and that some of that property consisted of other human beings. I stated explicitly that changing the way were represented in the Senate would be very difficult if not impossible. I get it. Jefferson’s “agrarian” vision is firmly enshrined and the amendment process makes it nearly impossible to change because what would possibly induce rural states to voluntarily surrender their power, right? Let’s just be plain about the system we actually have. It’s a veto-ocracy that’s currently ruled by a West Virginia DINOsaur.

Of course we have to degrade the founders based on slavery and fact that they were white males. (Racism 101; denigrate a group on the color of their skin) But this is the very sad state of the republic; the leftists have no idea of the history of the country and make it overly simplistic to fit their views.

I'd suggest everyone listen to Dan Carlin's Human Resources (history of North American slave trade) podcast and learn something. Dan, who is very liberal, thinks we must view people with the framework of the time they lived, not today's societies values. I agree with him 100%. He spends a ton of time talking about the contradiction that was Thomas Jefferson. It was fascinating. For all his flaws, he knew slavery's time was limited and had to go, but leftist now simply denigrate him and other founders rather than appreciate the complexity of the time/situation.

Those same slave holding founders, constructed, through a series of compromises, and ingenious incite into human behavior, a Constitution that bound the country together. Even more amazingly, that same Constitution was amended to eliminate slavery and the legislative process eventually extended true freedom to all. This happened in less than 200 years, which is a microcosm of time compared to how long slavery was ingrained in the world. (Remember, this goes back to Biblical times, although chattel slavery was much worse than much of the Biblical slavery.)

No one should be ashamed of being an American or our past. I damn proud to live in a country that somehow eliminated one of the great evils in the history of the world. We had amazing founders who figured out how to balance the needs of urban versus rural. We all need to understand that for the system to function correctly, often decisions need/will to be made we don't agree with. Instead of viewing the opposing view as the enemy, remember they are doing what they think is best and the system is working exactly how designed. That itself, is a compromise.

[tony]

Of course we have to degrade the founders based on slavery and fact that they were white males. (Racism 101; denigrate a group on the color of their skin) But this is the very sad state of the republic; the leftists have no idea of the history of the country and make it overly simplistic to fit their views.


Bullshit. Omigod, that's such fucking bullshit. Slave-owning Founding Fathers aren't being criticized for being white men- they're being criticized for making a mockery of their own stated principles by treating their fellow humans as less than human. Slavery is bad enough, but the slave codes in America managed to make it even worse than most examples.

Heck, it's not like people suddenly woke up and said, "Wow, I didn't know slavery was evil." Most knew. Read the unedited Declaration of Independence - Thomas Jefferson certainly realized that slavery was evil. Heck, I had ancestors here well before the Revolution who, based on their writings, were definitely anti-slavery.

I mean, yes, you do have to take a nuanced approach to history - just because people in history are never marble saints doesn't invalidate everything else they did. And, btw, what also pisses me off is that self-righteous assholes go after Ben Franklin, the paragon of Founding Fathers, because he chased skirts. Well, he didn't rape people he had enslaved and deny people their very humanity. Heck, he was anti-slavery and was humble enough to learn from past mistakes.

[scottietohottie]

22 million Twitter followers eh.

[bisonaudit]

100% agree - why would anyone in ND want to be controlled by NY and CA.

Yeah, I acknowledged that. There’s no reason for you to voluntarily surrender your disproportionate representation. But is it so tough to understand that people in CA and NY feel the same way about being controlled by you?

[bisonaudit]

Bullshit. Omigod, that's such fucking bullshit. Slave-owning Founding Fathers aren't being criticized for being white men- they're being criticized for making a mockery of their own stated principles by treating their fellow humans as less than human. Slavery is bad enough, but the slave codes in America managed to make it even worse than most examples.

Heck, it's not like people suddenly woke up and said, "Wow, I didn't know slavery was evil." Most knew. Read the unedited Declaration of Independence - Thomas Jefferson certainly realized that slavery was evil. Heck, I had ancestors here well before the Revolution who, based on their writings, were definitely anti-slavery.

I mean, yes, you do have to take a nuanced approach to history - just because people in history are never marble saints doesn't invalidate everything else they did. And, btw, what also pisses me off is that self-righteous assholes go after Ben Franklin, the paragon of Founding Fathers, because he chased skirts. Well, he didn't rape people he had enslaved and deny people their very humanity. Heck, he was anti-slavery and was humble enough to learn from past mistakes.

Also, we were way behind the curve in eliminating slavery and it took a civil war to do it.

And the disproportionate representation that still exists at the federal level is a legacy of the compromises made at the founding because of slavery that we still haven’t expunged from our system. Our efforts to create a more perfect union continue.

[HerdBot]

If you don't like how the (Federal) House and Senate are constituted, change the Constitution. There's a defined process for that. And when your State became a State you agreed to all of it.

Until then, the Senate is set up so the urbans don't overrun the rural. The urbans get the House to do that.

Frankly, if I were to make a change to the make-up of the Senate, I'd repeal (by the process) the 17th Amendment: No more popular vote for Senators; popular vote for House reps only. Go back to Senators picked by state legislatures. That would force folks to look at who they are sending to Bismarck even harder.

I don't buy the whole urban vs rural argument. This country in its early days was almost all rural. As recently as 1910, 55% of the nation was rural.

Right now, Republicans don't vote in states like New York and California for the same reasons Democrats don't vote in North Dakota and Alabama. They simply won't win. If every California or New York Republican voted, it would change the landscape. Also Democrats woule spend money in the rural states like Wyoming. But today, their vote really doesn't count, unless it's a ballot measure or a local election

[scottietohottie]

Yeah, I acknowledged that. There’s no reason for you to voluntarily surrender your disproportionate representation. But is it so tough to understand that people in CA and NY feel the same way about being controlled by you?

That's why states need to make laws for themselves and not the federal government. That's actual conservatism bro. Not the Trump bullshit.

[THEsocalledfan]

Bullshit. Omigod, that's such fucking bullshit. Slave-owning Founding Fathers aren't being criticized for being white men- they're being criticized for making a mockery of their own stated principles by treating their fellow humans as less than human. Slavery is bad enough, but the slave codes in America managed to make it even worse than most examples.

Heck, it's not like people suddenly woke up and said, "Wow, I didn't know slavery was evil." Most knew. Read the unedited Declaration of Independence - Thomas Jefferson certainly realized that slavery was evil. Heck, I had ancestors here well before the Revolution who, based on their writings, were definitely anti-slavery.

I mean, yes, you do have to take a nuanced approach to history - just because people in history are never marble saints doesn't invalidate everything else they did. And, btw, what also pisses me off is that self-righteous assholes go after Ben Franklin, the paragon of Founding Fathers, because he chased skirts. Well, he didn't rape people he had enslaved and deny people their very humanity. Heck, he was anti-slavery and was humble enough to learn from past mistakes.

Tony, thank you for making my point. Reread my paragraph on Dan Carlin's Human Resources. Yet, audit specifically pointed out slave holding white males wrote the constitution. I call out racism when I see it. I fully grasp the enigmas of the founders.

[bisonaudit]

Tony, thank you for making my point. Reread my paragraph on Dan Carlin's Human Resources. Yet, audit specifically pointed out slave holding white males wrote the constitution. I call out racism when I see it. I fully grasp the enigmas of the founders.

This shit is so bananas.

They treated people as property because of the color of their skin, but I’m the racist?

[scottietohottie]

This shit is so bananas.

They treated people as property because of the color of their skin, but I’m the racist?

Yeah I'm so glad George Washington invented slavery bro.

[HerdBot]

Of course we have to degrade the founders based on slavery and fact that they were white males. (Racism 101; denigrate a group on the color of their skin) But this is the very sad state of the republic; the leftists have no idea of the history of the country and make it overly simplistic to fit their views.

I'd suggest everyone listen to Dan Carlin's Human Resources (history of North American slave trade) podcast and learn something. Dan, who is very liberal, thinks we must view people with the framework of the time they lived, not today's societies values. I agree with him 100%. He spends a ton of time talking about the contradiction that was Thomas Jefferson. It was fascinating. For all his flaws, he knew slavery's time was limited and had to go, but leftist now simply denigrate him and other founders rather than appreciate the complexity of the time/situation.

Those same slave holding founders, constructed, through a series of compromises, and ingenious incite into human behavior, a Constitution that bound the country together. Even more amazingly, that same Constitution was amended to eliminate slavery and the legislative process eventually extended true freedom to all. This happened in less than 200 years, which is a microcosm of time compared to how long slavery was ingrained in the world. (Remember, this goes back to Biblical times, although chattel slavery was much worse than much of the Biblical slavery.)

No one should be ashamed of being an American or our past. I damn proud to live in a country that somehow eliminated one of the great evils in the history of the world. We had amazing founders who figured out how to balance the needs of urban versus rural. We all need to understand that for the system to function correctly, often decisions need/will to be made we don't agree with. Instead of viewing the opposing view as the enemy, remember they are doing what they think is best and the system is working exactly how designed. That itself, is a compromise.

I am definitely proud of this country. Over the course of time, shitty things happen and we evolve. Women couldn't even open a bank account without a husband until the 1960's. That doesn't mean every make who was alive then is an evil sexist and should be shamed. It was illegal for interracial marriage up until the 1960's. Does that mean everyone who was alive back then is a racist and should be erased? 20 years ago, anti gay slurs were pretty normal. Now they are offensive. Sexual harassment used to be part of every day work culture. Drinking and Driving used to mean the cop would follow you home or give you a ride. They used to be able to deny a loan based on race or gender.

Basically every generation has done some shitty things and they will continue to do shitty things.

[scottietohottie]

I am definitely proud of this country. Over the course of time, shitty things happen and we evolve. Women couldn't even open a bank account without a husband until the 1960's. That doesn't mean every make who was alive then is an evil sexist and should be shamed. It was illegal for interracial marriage up until the 1960's. Does that mean everyone who was alive back then is a racist and should be erased? 20 years ago, anti gay slurs were pretty normal. Now they are offensive. Sexual harassment used to be part of every day work culture. Drinking and Driving used to mean the cop would follow you home or give you a ride. They used to be able to deny a loan based on race or gender.

Basically every generation has done some shitty things and they will continue to do shitty things.

Our generation has lakes.

[Yote 53]

Changing the State Constitution can be raised to 60%, fine by me. The US Senate has a good gig going. Can be frustrating at times but I like the filibuster rule. Truth is, most of the Senators do too. Many claim they don't that actually do.

Simple. It gives them cover. You're right, they like the rule because they like having that cover.

[tony]

Just to expand a little on a prior rant.

The Founding Fathers weren't perfect, but folks didn't put statues of them for the evil they did, but for the good.

That's the difference I see between statues of, say, Washington and Jefferson vs Confederate "heroes". The "good" that all those Confederate fucks did was being traitors and fighting to preserve and protect slavery. And they were put up by people who thought the evil they did was awesome. Fuck them all.

[scottietohottie]

Just to expand a little on a prior rant.

The Founding Fathers weren't perfect, but folks didn't put statues of them for the evil they did, but for the good.

That's the difference I see between statues of, say, Washington and Jefferson vs Confederate "heroes". The "good" that all those Confederate fucks did was being traitors and fighting to preserve and protect slavery. And they were put up by people who thought the evil they did was awesome. Fuck them all.

No. They put the statues up to remind the sioux Indians who won. Right on their holy ground. It's actually more fucked up to me than slavery eh. No joke.

[bisonaudit]

I am definitely proud of this country. Over the course of time, shitty things happen and we evolve. Women couldn't even open a bank account without a husband until the 1960's. That doesn't mean every make who was alive then is an evil sexist and should be shamed. It was illegal for interracial marriage up until the 1960's. Does that mean everyone who was alive back then is a racist and should be erased? 20 years ago, anti gay slurs were pretty normal. Now they are offensive. Sexual harassment used to be part of every day work culture. Drinking and Driving used to mean the cop would follow you home or give you a ride. They used to be able to deny a loan based on race or gender.

Basically every generation has done some shitty things and they will continue to do shitty things.

Who here is trying to erase the founding fathers? Jefferson was a genius. If all he’d done was supervise the construction of Monticello he’d probably deserve to be remembered. If all he’d done was kick start the Library of Congress he’d probably deserve to be remembered. He bought Louisiana. He wrote the Declaration of Independence. The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom and founded UVA. He owned 600 humans.

Just acknowledge the shitty things so we can try to do better going forward.

No one is a racist today just because they happen to enjoy disproportionate representation in the Senate. But just because it’s been that way from the beginning isn’t a reason not to want to change it so we can continue with the business of creating a more perfect union.

[scottietohottie]

Building things to disconnect us from the spirit world eh. Medicine man told me that yesterday bros and that too is no joke eh.

[tony]

No. They put the statues up to remind the sioux Indians who won. Right on their holy ground. It's actually more fucked up to me than slavery eh. No joke.

You scamp.

[Bison Dan]

Also, we were way behind the curve in eliminating slavery and it took a civil war to do it.

And the disproportionate representation that still exists at the federal level is a legacy of the compromises made at the founding because of slavery that we still haven’t expunged from our system. Our efforts to creat a more perfect union continue.

you do realize that African tribes provided the slaves for the slave ships and that slavery still exist in Africa today.

[scottietohottie]

you do realize that African tribes provided the slaves for the slave ships and that slavery still exist in Africa today.

Should have brod him bro. Eh?

[bisonaudit]

you do realize that African tribes provided the slaves for the slave ships and that slavery still exist in Africa today.

Im not sure why it matters which humans were selling which other humans into bondage. Is that supposed to excuse everyone’s behavior somehow?

Today, slavery is illegal everywhere. Of course it still exists in some form but that is categorically different than being legally sanctioned.

[NFH Schlüssel]

Found this in a VA newspaper: (Forgot how to make it larger)

9923

Staunton Spectator, Volume 40, Number 6, 7 July 1863

[tony]

Found this in a VA newspaper: (Forgot how to make it larger)

9923

Staunton Spectator, Volume 40, Number 6, 7 July 1863

Yeah, that's a point in Lincoln's favor, imo. Shelby Foote (from the Ken Burn Civil War documentary) and other Confederate apologists always whine about how the Civil War could have been avoided if Lincoln had just compromised more. Well, there is he, in black and white, saying that he wouldn't end slavery in the states where it existed in order to preserve the Union. What more did those traitorous slavery-loving shitheads want as a compromise? The South turned traitor because their aristocracy didn't think that they were going to be allowed to tell new states that they had to make slavery legal in order to join the USA - and that would, in turn, imperil their most beloved institution. That's not a compromise. It's also a mockery of any notion that the slave states gave a damn about states' rights.

[Gully]

I don't know where people get the idea that our government was supposed to be perfectly proportionately representative....or that we're a "democracy" at all.

If that's what was wanted, you could just have everyone vote on everything (today) or have near perfectly proportioned representation. The thing is, they very clearly set it up to NOT be like that.

The way it is isn't perfect, it's just the best way yet devised.

[Gully]

Here is another thought. Slaves were brought to America by Europeans and Africans. Slavery in America was ended by Americans.

That's not to minimize the tragedy that it was but it gets a little old hearing how bad our country is because of decisions made by people who are long since passed on. It's time to move on and celebrate what we have in common, rather than driving division by focusing on things that happened a long time ago.

[EC8CH]

Here is another thought. Slaves were brought to America by Europeans and Africans. Slavery in America was ended by Americans.

That's not to minimize the tragedy that it was but it gets a little old hearing how bad our country is because of decisions made by people who are long since passed on. It's time to move on and celebrate what we have in common, rather than driving division by focusing on things that happened a long time ago.

The American constitution quantified how to count some people as less than others. That we've moved past this horrible chapter in history should be celebrated but also remembered.

[tony]

Here is another thought. Slaves were brought to America by Europeans and Africans. Slavery in America was ended by Americans.

That's not to minimize the tragedy that it was but it gets a little old hearing how bad our country is because of decisions made by people who are long since passed on. It's time to move on and celebrate what we have in common, rather than driving division by focusing on things that happened a long time ago.

Not by all Americans - certainly not by the ones waving Confederate flags, past or present. Man, you can't ask people to forgive and forget when there are people waving the Confederate flag and acting like Confederate generals deserve statues.

[bisonaudit]

The American constitution quantified how to count some people as less than others. That we've moved past this horrible chapter in history should be celebrated but also remembered.

Its worse than that. The constitution gave those extra fractional votes to the white men who held those people as property.

[bisonaudit]

Here is another thought. Slaves were brought to America by Europeans and Africans. Slavery in America was ended by Americans.

That's not to minimize the tragedy that it was but it gets a little old hearing how bad our country is because of decisions made by people who are long since passed on. It's time to move on and celebrate what we have in common, rather than driving division by focusing on things that happened a long time ago.

There is a big difference between saying our country is bad and wanting to see it do better.

[bisonaudit]

I don't know where people get the idea that our government was supposed to be perfectly proportionately representative....or that we're a "democracy" at all.

If that's what was wanted, you could just have everyone vote on everything (today) or have near perfectly proportioned representation. The thing is, they very clearly set it up to NOT be like that.

The way it is isn't perfect, it's just the best way yet devised.

I don’t think anyone has that idea.

You’re right what we have isn’t perfect and it is better than what came before. For the third time, maybe let’s try to do that again.

Here’s a possible compromise. Still in deep long shot territory but every state is guaranteed 3 congress people right now and the rest are apportioned by population. How about we guarantee one senator and two reps instead of two senators and one rep, leave the sizes of the legislative bodies the same and apportion 50 senate seats and the balance of the house by population.

[scottietohottie]

History Channel Hunting Confederates.

[Kevin]

There is a big difference between saying our country is bad and wanting to see it do better.

I think u need to audit that statement bro.

[CAS4127]

Its worse than that. The constitution gave those extra fractional votes to the white men who held those people as property.

I feel guilty, Bro!

[bisonaudit]

I feel guilty, Bro!

Why? .

[bisonaudit]

I think u need to audit that statement bro.

It’s like a middling version of your favorite meal.

[CAS4127]

Why? .

Becauase I’ve been reading Clarence Thomas’s memoirs and opinions. He’s on the Supreme Court in the event you didn’t know that. He is also African American. With the injustice you and Tony portray here, I’m not sure how that ever happened, especially when the inevitable “sexual assault” trap was set for him. Crazy how that thing gets WD’d/Water Displaced and re-used over decades of time.

Ive also been busy looking through my family’s heirlooms for that nuisance/elusive and historical Confederate Flag. Can’t seem to find that Sumbitch, but admittedly got distracted by some of Condoliza Rice’s writings and looking for (to a much lesser degree) the Obama Netflix series and the past opinions of our new African American Supreme Court Justice.

Just not enough time to keep up with all of this injustice, especially when I get interrupted by the complete discriminatory admission policies of all the “elite” College Institutions around the country.

Have a great weekend!

I’m considering moving to a different country that has a “better” constitution—just can’t find one. Maybe you can help with that?

[bisonaudit]

Becauase I’ve been reading Clarence Thomas’s memoirs and opinions. He’s on the Supreme Court in the event you didn’t know that. He is also African American. With the injustice you and Tony portray here, I’m not sure how that ever happened, especially when the inevitable “sexual assault” trap was set for him. Crazy how that thing gets WD’d/Water Displaced and re-used over decades of time.

Ive also been busy looking through my family’s heirlooms for that nuisance/elusive and historical Confederate Flag. Can’t seem to find that Sumbitch, but admittedly got distracted by some of Condoliza Rice’s writings and looking for (to a much lesser degree) the Obama Netflix series and the past opinions of our new African American Supreme Court Justice.

Just not enough time to keep up with all of this injustice, especially when I get interrupted by the complete discriminatory admission policies of all the “elite” College Institutions around the country.

Have a great weekend!

I’m considering moving to a different country that has a “better” constitution—just can’t find one. Maybe you can help with that?

Right so more bullshit grievances about things that no one here actually said. Enjoy your weekend and good luck with your search.

[CAS4127]

Not by all Americans - certainly not by the ones waving Confederate flags, past or present. Man, you can't ask people to forgive and forget when there are people waving the Confederate flag and acting like Confederate generals deserve statues.

I know, right?! Like people buying 10-acre properties and asking what lawn tractor they should buy to mow and whatnot, while also preaching “climate change”. Those kinda peeps are hypocrites and losers.

[HerdBot]

Who here is trying to erase the founding fathers? Jefferson was a genius. If all he’d done was supervise the construction of Monticello he’d probably deserve to be remembered. If all he’d done was kick start the Library of Congress he’d probably deserve to be remembered. He bought Louisiana. He wrote the Declaration of Independence. The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom and founded UVA. He owned 600 humans.

Just acknowledge the shitty things so we can try to do better going forward.

No one is a racist today just because they happen to enjoy disproportionate representation in the Senate. But just because it’s been that way from the beginning isn’t a reason not to want to change it so we can continue with the business of creating a more perfect union.

Shitty things happened. We evolved as a species. There is nothing we can do to fix then other than try the be better humans.

It's like the 1942 Japanese Americans thrown into internment camps. That was arguably the worst thing we've ever done because they, unlike slaves, had Constitutional Rights and we took them away. We apologized and have moved on and hopefully we can learn from history. The Japanese moved on because instead of dwelling on the past, they have moved forward and now dominate everything from education to career success. The don't dwell on it and don't really talk about it

[El_Chapo]

Not by all Americans - certainly not by the ones waving Confederate flags, past or present. Man, you can't ask people to forgive and forget when there are people waving the Confederate flag and acting like Confederate generals deserve statues.

as I drove thru the deep south on my road trip. I asked about 3-4 different groups about it. To a Man (and even a black man I had a beer with in Alabama) they view the confederate flag as "southern" like pride in being from the south. 2% were slave owners 170-200 years ago. they are long dead into 4 generations

[CAS4127]

as I drove thru the deep south on my road trip. I asked about 3-4 different groups about it. To a Man (and even a black man I had a beer with in Alabama) they view the confederate flag as "southern" like pride in being from the south. 2% were slave owners 170-200 years ago. they are long dead into 4 generations

Stop—that doesn’t fit Tony’s feel-good narrative. He knows everything, including how EVERYONE thinks and acts. He’s a “worldly” man.

[bisonaudit]

Shitty things happened. We evolved as a species. There is nothing we can do to fix then other than try the be better humans.

It's like the 1942 Japanese Americans thrown into internment camps. That was arguably the worst thing we've ever done because they, unlike slaves, had Constitutional Rights and we took them away. We apologized and have moved on and hopefully we can learn from history. The Japanese moved on because instead of dwelling on the past, they have moved forward and now dominate everything from education to career success. The don't dwell on it and don't really talk about it

Maybe it helped a little bit that we spent 20 billion dollars rebuilding the economy in their home country instead of going back on our promises for a century. In any event I think what you say about how Japanese Americans feel about internment is mostly not true, except for the bit about not talking about it much. And it’s certainly not true that they’re dominating education and business that was just some freak out we experienced for a hot minute in the late 80s.

But yes shitty things happen and for the 4th time yes maybe we can do a little better going forward.

[CAS4127]

Maybe it helped a little bit that we spent 20 billion dollars rebuilding the economy in their home country instead of going back on our promises for a century. In any event I think what you say about how Japanese Americans feel about internment is mostly not true, except for the bit about not talking about it much. And it’s certainly not true that they’re dominating education and business that was just some freak out we experienced for a hot minute in the late 80s.

But yes shitty things happen and for the 4th time yes maybe we can do a little better going forward.

What we should do is throw money at things, UN-Audited. Perfect for money laundering and kickbacks.

[tony]

as I drove thru the deep south on my road trip. I asked about 3-4 different groups about it. To a Man (and even a black man I had a beer with in Alabama) they view the confederate flag as "southern" like pride in being from the south. 2% were slave owners 170-200 years ago. they are long dead into 4 generations

History is important. Knowing and understanding the past is key in seeing the warning signs of incipient trouble. But I've put one part of your post in bold. Please provide a source for that because, to me, it clearly demonstrates a problem. How many Americans would read something like that on social media and believe it without applying any critical thinking or verification to it? 50%? 37%?

Cripes, the Civil War is not ancient history - and even if it were, it'd be one of the most important eras in OUR history. How can keeping statues of traitors be important but not knowing the truth about why those statues got put up?

[bisonaudit]

as I drove thru the deep south on my road trip. I asked about 3-4 different groups about it. To a Man (and even a black man I had a beer with in Alabama) they view the confederate flag as "southern" like pride in being from the south. 2% were slave owners 170-200 years ago. they are long dead into 4 generations

You missed a zero there. Slave ownership rates in the south were more like 20%-30% of households. Not 2%.

[CAS4127]

History is important. Knowing and understanding the past is key in seeing the warning signs of incipient trouble. But I've put one part of your post in bold. Please how me a source for that.

A lot of posts here show just how knowing history is important. And, cripes, the Civil War is not ancient history - and even if it were, it'd be OUR history. How can keeping statues of traitors be important but not knowing the truth about their treason?

Yeah, I’m really concerned that slavery will be the new thing in the United States, other than what is already occurring with Bezo amd Suckleberry.

[Gully]

The American constitution quantified how to count some people as less than others. That we've moved past this horrible chapter in history should be celebrated but also remembered.

Yes. I agree completely. I'm not saying it shouldn't be remembered. I just don't think our country is terrible as some make it out to be.

[bisonaudit]

History is important. Knowing and understanding the past is key in seeing the warning signs of incipient trouble. But I've put one part of your post in bold. Please provide a source for that because, to me, it clearly demonstrates a problem. How many Americans would read something like that on social media and believe it without applying any critical thinking to it? 50%? 37%

A lot of posts here show just how knowing history is important. And, cripes, the Civil War is not ancient history - and even if it were, it'd be OUR history. How can keeping statues of traitors be important but not knowing the truth about their treason?

A baseball podcast I listen to on the regular interviewed the last living player to play for Connie Mack last week. Connie Mack was born in 1862.

Id really much rather be discussing that or you know having a slightly more representative democratic republic but it seems some folks have a bug up their ass about not owning other people any more.

[CAS4127]

You missed a zero there. Slave ownership rates in the south were more like 20%-30% of households. Not 2%.

What year was that again? Did you get some sort of Liberal talking point memo from somewhere?

[Gully]

Not by all Americans - certainly not by the ones waving Confederate flags, past or present. Man, you can't ask people to forgive and forget when there are people waving the Confederate flag and acting like Confederate generals deserve statues.

I didn't say "all" Americans. My point isn't that American's aren't without fault, it's that there is much more good than bad here and I think the running down of the country is overdone.

I don't see how anyone is helped now by continuing to dwell on the past. I'm not saying to forget it....it happened. It's over. Now it's time to move on.

[bisonaudit]

Yes. I agree completely. I'm not saying it shouldn't be remembered. I just don't think our country is terrible as some make it out to be.

Who are these people you insist are saying that America is a terrible place?

[Gully]

There is a big difference between saying our country is bad and wanting to see it do better.

I completely agree with this. Of course we can be better. Some think and say our country is terrible...I disagree.

[tony]

Yes. I agree completely. I'm not saying it shouldn't be remembered. I just don't think our country is terrible as some make it out to be.

I've been pretty consistently saying that slavery and the Confederacy were terrible. Those two things aren't the USA - they're almost literally diametrically opposed to everything that makes the USA what it aspires to be.

[CAS4127]

Who are these people you insist are saying that America is a terrible place?

See Ibid: re: your and Tony’s above posts. Get way over yourselves please.

[bisonaudit]

What year was that again? Did you get some sort of Liberal talking point memo from somewhere?

1860. Southern households.

[Gully]

I'm addressing two posts at once here and too lazy to quote them. Plenty of people say that....just look on Twitter or Facebook. Lots of people hate this country, which is just amazing to me.

I didn't mean to imply that Tony hates our country, I was speaking more in general.

[bisonaudit]

See Ibid: re: your and Tony’s above posts. Get way over yourselves please.


Right, just more grievance about things no one here is actually saying. Have a great weekend and good luck with your search.

[CAS4127]

1860. Southern households.

I vaguely remember that year—>solid. LMAO.

[bisonaudit]

I'm addressing two posts at once here and too lazy to quote them. Plenty of people say that....just look on Twitter or Facebook. Lots of people hate this country, which is just amazing to me.

I didn't mean to imply that Tony hates our country, I was speaking more in general.

Twitter and Facebook, see, there’s your problem right there…

[bisonaudit]

I vaguely remember that year—>solid. LMAO.

Edward H Bonekemper III “The Myth of the Lost Cause” published in 2015.

[Gully]

Twitter and Facebook, see, there’s your problem right there…

I suppose you're right, they're obviously not representative of society and clearly tend to lean left, I think that's pretty clear. Still, some of the users are real people.

[tony]

Just for the record, this kind of political debate is the kind I most enjoy because it's not the typical stupid partisanship (or at least not much.) I mean, if "slavery was bad" becomes a partisan issue again, then we've got some serious problems. :)

And the reason I'm up haranguing you poor bastards is because I was simultaneously watching the NY Rangers lose while updating all the FCS schedules for 2022 (which I'm very happy about getting done - even if the coaches and conferences will need some cleaning up.): Bisonville.com - Bisonville Main Page (http://www.bisonville.com/fanguide/)

[bisonaudit]

I suppose you're right, they're obviously not representative of society and clearly tend to lean left, I think that's pretty clear. Still, some of the users are real people.

I think the issue is not so much that they’re right or left as especially with Facebook you’ve got to work really hard to not get put in a box where they’re only showing you what they know you want to see.

[CAS4127]

Just for the record, this kind of political debate is the kind I most enjoy because it's not the typical stupid partisanship (or at least not much.) I mean, if "slavery was bad" becomes a partisan issue again, then we've got some serious problems. :)

We all agree slavery was bad, what we don’t agree on is wanting to continuously focus on a past that has by and large been rectified and solved via Constitutional Amendmens and massive legislative efforts. Good God already!

[CAS4127]

I think the issue is not so much that they’re right or left as especially with Facebook you’ve got to work really hard to not get put in a box where they’re only showing you what they know you want to see.

Or what Facebook wants you to see/their agenda?

[HerdBot]

Maybe it helped a little bit that we spent 20 billion dollars rebuilding the economy in their home country instead of going back on our promises for a century. In any event I think what you say about how Japanese Americans feel about internment is mostly not true, except for the bit about not talking about it much. And it’s certainly not true that they’re dominating education and business that was just some freak out we experienced for a hot minute in the late 80s.

But yes shitty things happen and for the 4th time yes maybe we can do a little better going forward.

I'm not talking about the nation of Japan. I'm talking about Japanese Americans thrown into internment camps. Asian Americans on average are the most educated wealthiest and even high the highest IQ scores. Asians score so high on ACTs that schools like Harvard adjust for them. It's not genetic, it's culture and the lowest divorce rates

[bisonaudit]

We all agree slavery was bad, what we don’t agree on is wanting to continuously focus on a past that has by and large been rectified and solved via Constitutional Amendmens and massive legislative efforts. Good God already!

I thought we were talking about whether or not we should have a slightly more representative democratic republic or not but whatever.

[bisonaudit]

I'm not talking about the nation of Japan. I'm talking about Japanese Americans thrown into internment camps. Asian Americans on average are the most educated wealthiest and even high the highest IQ scores. Asians score so on ACTs that schools like Harvard adjust for them. It's not genetic, it's culture and the lowest divorce rates

So all Asians are Japanese Americans now…

[HerdBot]

So all Asians are Japanese Americans now…

Just as all whites aren't Irish, Norwegian or German. But I still call them white. And a black guy from Zimbabwe is different than other blacks but the same. Black guys. But specifically Japanese Americans do quite well

[CAS4127]

I thought we were talking about whether or not we should have a slightly more representative democratic republic or not but whatever.

You say that, but the implications of your posts are way beyond that issue/topic, and you expect/hope to do so with impunity. Likely works for some, but not for me. The judgmental and arrogance of your posts aren’t lost on me.

I’m thinking MX will be a good place after the migration of illegals passes throw the southern border with the Cartels the focused on this borders and illegal immigrants. Less to deal with in Mexico proper/Punta Sur.

[bisonaudit]

Just as all whites aren't Irish, Norwegian or German. But I still call them white. And a black guy from Zimbabwe is different than other blacks but the same. Black guys

You just said you were taking specifically about Japanese Americans and then you said a bunch of stuff about Asians. There are 4.5 billion Asians in the world. There are 24 million Asian Americans. 1.5 million are Japanese Americans. There are 5 other Asian American groups that are larger than the Japanese American community. Get your shit straight.

[HerdBot]

You just said you were taking specifically about Japanese Americans and then you said a bunch of stuff about Asians. There are 4.5 billion Asians in the world. There are 24 million Asian Americans. 1.5 million are Japanese Americans. There are 5 other Asian American groups that are larger than the Japanese American community. Get your shit straight.

Specifically Japanese Americans sit at the top of the economic scale. I could have been more specific

[bisonaudit]

Filibuster going away would improve democracy. Reforming how we are represented in the Senate would improve it more.

Of course the filibuster is merely a Senate rule which the Senate can change at anytime whereas making the body more representative is substantially more difficult.

Here’s my first post on the topic. Just oozing with implications, judgment and arrogance.

[HerdBot]

Here’s my first post on the topic.

It's the off season buddy, what else are we gonna talk about? Lol

[bisonaudit]

Specifically Japanese Americans sit at the top of the economic scale. I could have been more specific

Depending how you break in down they’re between 3rd and 17th in household income.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_hous ehold_income

Indian-Americans and Taiwanese-Americans are the highest. So once again it looks like you’re having trouble telling your Asians apart.

[bisonaudit]

It's the off season buddy, what else are we gonna talk about? Lol

Well, Emilio Pagan just gave me another heart attack to there’s that.

[EC8CH]

Yes. I agree completely. I'm not saying it shouldn't be remembered. I just don't think our country is terrible as some make it out to be.

Agree. I've always thought being critical of our own past is one of the things that makes our country great. Patriotism based on a selective and superficial remembering of the past seems very weak in comparison to a full accounting of our nation's history. Both it's triumphs and it's atrocities.

[HerdBot]

Depending how you break in down they’re between 3rd and 17th in household income.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_hous ehold_income

Indian-Americans and Taiwanese-Americans are the highest. So once again it looks like you’re having trouble telling your Asians apart.

My point is Japanese Americans are economically very successful despite their great grand parents being stripped of their constitutional rights, thrown into American interment camps and lost all their property

If you lump all Asians together, they are way ahead of whites. If you look at Japanese Americans individually, they are way ahead of whites

Indians are the doctors, so they probably make the most

https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2021/11/income-and-wealth-in-the-united-states-an-overview-of-data

[Gully]

I think the issue is not so much that they’re right or left as especially with Facebook you’ve got to work really hard to not get put in a box where they’re only showing you what they know you want to see.

I think you're right about that....Twitter as well I think.

[semobison]

Shitty things happened. We evolved as a species. There is nothing we can do to fix then other than try the be better humans.

It's like the 1942 Japanese Americans thrown into internment camps. That was arguably the worst thing we've ever done because they, unlike slaves, had Constitutional Rights and we took them away. We apologized and have moved on and hopefully we can learn from history. The Japanese moved on because instead of dwelling on the past, they have moved forward and now dominate everything from education to career success. The don't dwell on it and don't really talk about it

Yep, we threw Japanese Americans into Camps while German Americans ran free down in Wishek and Linton. Guess they needed someone to stir the sauerkraut!
Dealing with Racist issues in America and around the world is like evolution. A work in progress. Of course people today are not responsible for what happened 80 years ago but in order to deal with todays issues we cannot forget the mistakes of the past.

[HerdBot]

Yep, we threw Japanese Americans into Camps while German Americans ran free down in Wishek and Linton. Guess they needed someone to stir the sauerkraut!
Dealing with Racist issues in America and around the world is like evolution. A work in progress. Of course people today are not responsible for what happened 80 years ago but in order to deal with todays issues we cannot forget the mistakes of the past.

When you put it that way, it's even more shocking

[tony]

When you put it that way, it's even more shocking

Well, there was an internment camp for Germans south of Mandan too.

Teach history, not fairy tales.

[bisonaudit]

Well, there was an internment camp for Germans south of Mandan too.

Teach history, not fairy tales.

German nationals and German Americans were interred during both world wars. During wwii unlike Japanese Americans who were detained en masse based only on their ethnicity. German nationals and German Americans were evaluated individually and were provided a modicum of due process.

[HerdBot]

Well, there was an internment camp for Germans south of Mandan too.

Teach history, not fairy tales.

That's pretty fucked. Did some digging and we did it to Italians too

Germans Americans were never even issued a formal apology

11k Germans and 400k Japanese Americans

I have to wonder how hard it would be to pick up German Americans. It's not like they look obviously German. I'm German.. and Irish

What's considered a Gernan National? Someone from Germany and not a citizen I assume? I get that decision but American Born

[CAS4127]

Is everything otherwise gonna be ok? I mean, the UNITED STATES sucks. I wish people who hate it would just leave for another, “better” country, because none of them have any questionable history. I’ll suggest Germany and or Russia for those that hate the USA, or, even better for you, China or Afghanistan. I mean, those places are so much better. Get busy leaving please. Goodbye!

Altu MAGA!

[EC8CH]

Is everything otherwise gonna be ok? I mean, the UNITED STATES sucks. I wish people who hate it would just leave for another, “better” country, because none of them have any questionable history. I’ll suggest Germany and or Russia for those that hate the USA, or, even better for you, China or Afghanistan. I mean, those places are so much better. Get busy leaving please. Goodbye!

Altu MAGA!

Imagine thinking that this makes you more patriotic.

[tony]

That's pretty fucked. Did some digging and we did it to Italians too

Germans Americans were never even issued a formal apology


In WWII, I believe that it was almost all German and Italian nationals who got put in internment camps and there was some sort of due process involved - so it was not quite the same. I mean, there were over a million Americans who were born in Germany at the time. Heck, in my jr high German language class, half the kids raised their hands when asked if anybody in their family still spoke German at home.

I'm not a huge history buff, but I do think that it would be better to teach the truth rather than fairy tales. For one thing, the truth is more interesting and, for another, it better prepares a person for citizenship. What baffles me is the same people who say that "You can't teach the truth because it makes us feel bad" are often the same ones who want to teach a false history in which the Confederates were the good guys.

[Bison Dan]

In WWII, I believe that it was almost all German and Italian nationals who got put in internment camps and there was some sort of due process involved - so it was not quite the same. I mean, there were over a million Americans who were born in Germany at the time. Heck, in my jr high German language class, half the kids raised their hands when asked if anybody in their family still spoke German at home.

I'm not a huge history buff, but I do think that it would be better to teach the truth rather than fairy tales. For one thing, the truth is more interesting and, for another, it better prepares a person for citizenship. What baffles me is the same people who say that "You can't teach the truth because it makes us feel bad" are often the same ones who want to teach a false history in which the Confederates were the good guys.

No one is against teaching the Truth, but just sick of all the libtard's continually living in the past and reliving slavery and other past troubles the USA had in it's short history. You ever notice that they always dwell on the bad and never on the good that the USA had done? It just gets old.

[tony]

No one is against teaching the Truth, but just sick of all the libtard's continually living in the past and reliving slavery and other past troubles the USA had in it's short history. You ever notice that they always dwell on the bad and never on the good that the USA had done? It just gets old.

People are waving Confederate flags all over the US right now. What should upset you more as an American than that?

The irony is that almost everything good the US has ever done was violently opposed by the same types of people who think waving a Confederate flag is fine. Ending slavery was the best thing the US has ever done. Guess who opposed that? Women getting the right to vote was the second. I'd say decriminalizing being gay is right up there as well. Heck, let's make a list of all the great things the US has done so I can see where "low gas prices" fits in.