Is the current state of the FCS really just the old DII days rebranded?

[MAKBison]

Just wondering what people's thoughts were about this.

[Bison 4 Life]

no

10 char

[El_Chapo]

the FCS is the 3rd tier... ita very much d2 caliber now that 5 fcs programs have jumped to fbs in last few years.

[MAKBison]

no

10 char

Ok, besides the obvious..... number of scholarships, the quality of the game and cost. what is different?

[Bison 4 Life]

Ok, besides the obvious..... number of scholarships, the quality of the game and cost. what is different?

What is the same?

[tony]

Ok, what is different?

I'm looking around FCS and not seeing U of Mary, Crookston, Minot, Duluth, Northern State, SW Minnesota, Winona, Upper Iowa, or any of the type of newcomers in our region that made leaving D2 inevitable.

The schools in our region that are in DI are exactly the ones NDSU wanted to go DI with NDSU in the first place.

[Bisonator98]

Ok, besides the obvious..... number of scholarships, the quality of the game and cost. what is different?

Lol those are pretty big differences. I'd add the quality of athlete, coaching staffs, facilities, technology is quite a bit better.

This is talking about the upper level of FCS, not the non scholarship types who should be DII or DIII.

[MAKBison]

I am actually looking for folks to seriously compare the two not make arguments about jumping or who should jump etc.

I would also add that the exposure for the University and Community is greater at the FCS level as well.

[MAKBison]

Lol those are pretty big differences. I'd add the quality of athlete, coaching staffs, facilities, technology is quite a bit better.

This is talking about the upper level of FCS, not the non scholarship types who should be DII or DIII.

I think your reading too much into this. The question is I just that…. a question! It is not a statement about jumping not jumping etc.

[MAKBison]

What is the same?

I asked the question to get a feeling of what people think are the diff., not start a FBS/FCS/DII debate. It seems that the only real difference is the $$$$$ involved and all that comes with that...a higher quality product. The teams that we play now compared to the teams that we used to play are a wash.

I would argue the biggest advantage has been the marketing of NDSU to a broader audience.

[MAKBison]

I'm looking around FCS and not seeing U of Mary, Crookston, Minot, Duluth, Northern State, SW Minnesota, Winona, Upper Iowa, or any of the type of newcomers in our region that made leaving D2 inevitable.

The schools in our region that are in DI are exactly the ones NDSU wanted to go DI with NDSU in the first place.

True, but are you seeing anything special in their place? My thoughts are no not really. Maybe MT, but most all the others schools I would say are "something" are no longer in FCS.

[ZHerd]

I'm ignorant regarding the old D2 days. Did D2 play D1 games (as in the current FBS and P5) and if so how did they fare? Eight FBS wins in FCS shows that the Bison are competitive with the top of D1 (P5) and have been/are playing high caliber D1 football. That doesn't happen with 32 scholarships. I'm not sure how they stacked up before the scholarship reductions. Im guessing that the level of ball and who we are competitive against is much higher in FCS than it was in D2.

[Bison"FANatic"]

The talent we have on the field and opponents put on is far from DII. Multiple nfl caliber players each year and they are not just getting tryouts they are sticking in the league

[NorthernBison]

Ok, besides the obvious..... number of scholarships, the quality of the game and cost. what is different?

Every other sport on campus is D1.
Every playoff game is on ESPN.
The National Championship game is in Jan.
4-5 teams from our conference make playoffs (instead of 2 max in DII)
Nobody in DII has our type of facilities or anything like the top FCS programs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BisonAccountant44]

How far back are you considering the old D2? The 70's pre the 1AA split, the 80's in our heyday, or the watered-down years before we finally left?

[silkamilkamonico]

Division 2, tier 2, level 2. It's all the same call it whatever you want. The best fcs teams aren't playing on Saturday in the college playoffs that's for sure.

[MAKBison]

So collectively we are essentially saying that there is a difference between the 4th Level of FB (DII) and the 3rd Level of FB (FCS).

Essential the 3 broad categories below are the primary differences and as result the following has occurred..........

1) A Higher cost (to the fans, University);

But has resulted in a

1) Higher level of quality (facilities, coaches, players) and
2) Created more exposure for the university and community. (ESPN, NFL, TV, Radio)


Am I missing anything?

[MAKBison]

How far back are you considering the old D2? The 70's pre the 1AA split, the 80's in our heyday, or the watered-down years before we finally left?

I dont think it really matters

[Bisonator98]

I think your reading too much into this. The question is I just that…. a question! It is not a statement about jumping not jumping etc.

I don't understand what you're looking for in an answer. Would the 1990 NDSU football team been able to beat the 1990 Iowa Hawkeyes? No I don't beleive so, nothing against those players or that team which was one of NDSU's best ever but IMO there is just simply not the talent from every position nor the depth to compete at that level. So to answer your question, no I don't see FCS as a rebranded version of the old DII.

[Bisonwinagn]

Every other sport on campus is D1.
Every playoff game is on ESPN.
The National Championship game is in Jan.
4-5 teams from our conference make playoffs (instead of 2 max in DII)
Nobody in DII has our type of facilities or anything like the top FCS programs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We had the same facilities in D2??!!

[MAKBison]

I don't understand what you're looking for in an answer. Would the 1990 NDSU football team been able to beat the 1990 Iowa Hawkeyes? No I don't beleive so, nothing against those players or that team which was one of NDSU's best ever but IMO there is just simply not the talent from every position nor the depth to compete at that level. So to answer your question, no I don't see FCS as a rebranded version of the old DII.

You answered the question...I was referring to your LOL and saying those were significant. No need to LOL as I agree they are significant.

-----

So collectively we are essentially saying that there is a difference between the 4th Level of FB (DII) and the 3rd Level of FB (FCS).

Essential the 3 broad categories below are the primary differences and as result the following has occurred..........

1) A Higher cost (to the fans, University);

But has resulted in a

1) Higher level of quality (facilities, coaches, players) and
2) Created more exposure for the university and community. (ESPN, NFL, TV, Radio)


Am I missing anything?

[Bisonator98]

We had the same facilities in D2??!!

No we didn't. We had the dome before all of the renovations. Pretty much everything else is different.

[Bisonwinagn]

No we didn't. We had the dome before all of the renovations. Pretty much everything else is different.

Provide a list please?

[Bisonwinagn]

One thing I will say is FCS is much worse overall than I ever imagined when moving up from D2. There were a lot of people who said we could compete in the FCS in the 80's and I didn't necessarily believe them. My thought was every FCS school was like Montana with 20K fans at every game. The fact is FCS isn't much better than D2 from attendance outside of the top 25 teams. The talent in the top 25 is better, but NDSU would of been a fringe top 25 team just like they are now with FBS.
The biggest difference is by far the national exposure which has increased enrollment drastically and moved NDSU from a dying school in the 90's to a more big time feel.

[MAKBison]

One thing I will say is FCS is much worse overall than I ever imagined when moving up from D2. There were a lot of people who said we could compete in the FCS in the 80's and I didn't necessarily believe them. My thought was every FCS school was like Montana with 20K fans at every game. The fact is FCS isn't much better than D2 from attendance outside of the top 25 teams. The talent in the top 25 is better, but NDSU would of been a fringe top 25 team just like they are now with FBS.
The biggest difference is by far the national exposure which has increased enrollment drastically and moved NDSU from a dying school in the 90's to a more big time feel.

I think we also have to realize that somewhere in there another leve of FB appeared/developed. The FCS used to be the second level of FB, and DII the third level of FB, but currently the FCS is now the 3rd level of FB and DII is the fourth level of FB. So from the point of view it is the same.

The Current ................ .............. The Past
1st level of FB = P5...................... 1st level of = FBS
2nd level of FB = G5 ..................... 2nd level of FB = FCS
3rd level of FB = FCS ................... 3rd level of FB = DII
4th Level of FB = DII

[NorthernBison]

One thing I will say is FCS is much worse overall than I ever imagined when moving up from D2. There were a lot of people who said we could compete in the FCS in the 80's and I didn't necessarily believe them. My thought was every FCS school was like Montana with 20K fans at every game. The fact is FCS isn't much better than D2 from attendance outside of the top 25 teams. The talent in the top 25 is better, but NDSU would of been a fringe top 25 team just like they are now with FBS.
The biggest difference is by far the national exposure which has increased enrollment drastically and moved NDSU from a dying school in the 90's to a more big time feel.

UND beat a highly ranked UNI on the road before they moved up. Did that not give you a clue? Or maybe our win in Missoula in 2003?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bisonator98]

Provide a list please?

The SHAC, ESC, NOF, new practice field, bubble, coaches offices and locker rooms in the FFD, AC in the BBF.....

[runtheoption]

The SHAC, ESC, NOF, new practice field, bubble, coaches offices and locker rooms in the FFD, AC in the BBF.....

The Turf...

[perthbison]

The talent we have on the field and opponents put on is far from DII. Multiple nfl caliber players each year and they are not just getting tryouts they are sticking in the leagueYes, there is a good point. I,m watching Zenner run effectively against the cowboys now. In the D2 era we never had near as many players making the NFL, although the ones who did proved they belong, and we now play against more future NFL players.

[perthbison]

The Turf...That bar was there back in the d2 days. please do your research before posting:biggrin:

[Vet70]

That bar was there back in the d2 days. please do your research before posting:biggrin:

But when it is rebuilt after the fire it will be new and improved.

[HerdBot]

FCS vs D2 then isn't even in the same discussion and it's laughable to imply it is. Think about the later D2 days before we left.. it was horrible competition. The scholarship levels kept dropping and these days it's even worse since most teams only offer 20+ scholarships. When we were D2, you had the NCC who would inevitably play whatever schmuck team was left over and win the National Championship. Whether it was NDSU, UND, or Northern Colorado... it didn't really matter. Heck one year we played USD in the National Championship game! Really? The rest of D2 you had your teams that were always good but never really dominant like Cal Poly, UC Davis, Portland State, etc.

The difference between then and now is this. You have the really good D2 teams that moved up and put some money into their programs and outside of NDSU... most of them aren't national championship contenders at this level. Their just not good enough. Outside of the rare exception of SDSU actually being better at a higher level, most of those guys are just solid but unspectacular teams. I really hope some day the great D2 teams like Grand Valley State makes the jump. They are clearly good enough.

The biggest difference is in facilities, attendance, quality of football, TV exposure, and the conferences we compete against. Scholarship levels are almost double. (actually closer to triple since most teams only fund 20 scholarships) Unlike the D2 days... pretty much EVERYONE fully funds their full 63 scholarships. (expect the non scholarship teams duh) Heck now we even got a decent amount of teams now offering full cost of attendance! And TV coverage? Espn only televised the D2 National Championship game. Even regionally it's not even close. SDSU and USD get more TV coverage than NDSU got during their D2 hey days. NDSU now gets more TV coverage than many FBS teams.

Look at facilities... yeah we had the dome back then but there weren't enough good teams to even interest fans to fill the fucker up. I mean there is quite the difference between Morningside, Augustana, Mankato State, St Cloud State and compare it to say Youngstown, UNI, and Illinois State. Playoffs? Sorry but the Montana's, Eastern Washington's, and [enter CAA] teams are actually good quality games that people want to see.

Back in the D2 days we were one of the only team that actually drew 10K fans per game. Now pretty much every team in our conference draws 10K fans.How many D2 teams have indoor practice facilities like SDSU, Youngstown, and UND? The dome is an awesome facility but unlike the D2 days, we're not the only team that has good attendance and nice stadiums. Heck look at SDSU, Youngstown, Montana, UNI, James Madison, Jacksonville State and compare their stadiums to the D2 days. Not even close. Heck most of you guys don't even realize James Madison averaged more fans than we did last year. The top D2 conferences draw about the same as the Non Scholarship Patriot League draw. The super crappy drawing conferences are the NEC and Patriot, who would still be in the top quarter of D2

2015 NCAA DIVISION II FOOTBALL CONFERENCE ATTENDANCE
Total 2015 Change
Rank Division II Teams Games Attendance Average In Avg.
1. Southern Intercollegiate# 11 54 328,016 6,074
2. Lone Star 7 42 246,431 5,867
3. Gulf South 7 41 220,010 5,366
4. Mid-America 12 69 359,541 5,211
5. Central Intercollegiate 12 53 167,599 3,162
6. Great Lakes Intercol. 15 83 256,735 3,093
7. Great Northwest 7 36 110,944 3,082
8. Great American# 11 63 189,341 3,005
9. Northern Sun 16 89 241,682 2,716
10. Pennsylvania 16 92 240,050 2,609
11. South Atlantic 8 44 112,001 2,545
12. Rocky Mountain 10 54 122,209 2,263
13. Great Lakes Valley 9 44 99,325 2,257
14. Mountain East# 11 62 111,673 1,801
15. Northeast-10 10 55 89,490 1,627

2015 NCAA DIVISION I FCS CONFERENCE ATTENDANCE
Total 2015 Change
Rank Division I FCS Teams Games Attendance Average In Avg.
1. Southwestern Athletic 10 51 653,962 12,823
2. Missouri Valley Football 10 60 654,948 10,916
3. Big Sky 13 70 691,412 9,877
4. Ohio Valley 9 48 435,719 9,077
5. Colonial 12 68 612,425 9,006
6. Mid-Eastern 11 52 464,749 8,937
7. Ivy 8 39 345,724 8,865
8. Southern 8 46 377,674 8,210
9. Southland 9 50 372,987 7,460
10. Big South# 7 40 *291,162 7,279
11. Patriot 7 38 211,844 5,575
12. Pioneer 11 61 209,921 3,441
13. Northeast 7 35 93,154 2,662
FCS Independent# 1 6 42,769 7,128

[MNLonghorn10]

Fcs has taken a huge hit when ODU, CCU, Georgia Southern and App st moved up. Big big big hit. I wouldn't be so against staying fcs if those guys were still at this level. And I know someone is going to pipe in and say you can do the same to fbs when Alabama, Clemson Ohio state and Michigan are taken out.. but we get absolute hard ons beating the rest of the teams so I'm not going to call them a shitty level of football like I did below to the fcs

I think once you take out the ndsus,sdsus,uni, Montanas, ewus, James Madison's, jsus Sam houstons...You have a pretty shitty level of football that would blend right in with d2.

[HerdBot]

Fcs has taken a huge hit when ODU, CCU, Georgia Southern and App st moved up. Big big big hit. I wouldn't be so against staying fcs if those guys were still at this level. And I know someone is going to pipe in and say you can do the same to fbs when Alabama, Clemson Ohio state and Michigan are taken out.. but we get absolute hard ons beating the rest of the teams so I'm not going to call them a shitty level of football like I did below to the fcs

I think once you take out the ndsus,sdsus,uni, Montanas, ewus, James Madison's, jsus Sam houstons...You have a pretty shitty level of football that would blend right in with d2.

The big name of Georgia Southern and Appalachian State definitely hurt but Coastal Carolina? Really? Up until 3 years ago nobody even knew who they were. But yes... start losing the other teams you mentioned and it's headed towards the way D2 used to be... the winner of the MVFC (NCC) would win the national championship and kick the shit out of the token opponent. I guess the good news is the James Madisons and Youngstowns of the world seem to be getting better and if we don't up our game we're fucked. It's weird though because the rest of the nation probably views us the way we used to view Appalachian and Georgia Southern.

[MAKBison]

FCS vs D2 then isn't even in the same discussion and it's laughable to imply it is. Think about the later D2 days before we left.. it was horrible competition. The scholarship levels kept dropping and these days it's even worse since most teams only offer 20+ scholarships. When we were D2, you had the NCC who would inevitably play whatever schmuck team was left over and win the National Championship. Whether it was NDSU, UND, or Northern Colorado... it didn't really matter. Heck one year we played USD in the National Championship game! Really? The rest of D2 you had your teams that were always good but never really dominant like Cal Poly, UC Davis, Portland State, etc.

The difference between then and now is this. You have the really good D2 teams that moved up and put some money into their programs and outside of NDSU... most of them aren't national championship contenders at this level. Their just not good enough. Outside of the rare exception of SDSU actually being better at a higher level, most of those guys are just solid but unspectacular teams. I really hope some day the great D2 teams like Grand Valley State makes the jump. They are clearly good enough.

The biggest difference is in facilities, attendance, quality of football, TV exposure, and the conferences we compete against. Scholarship levels are almost double. (actually closer to triple since most teams only fund 20 scholarships) Unlike the D2 days... pretty much EVERYONE fully funds their full 63 scholarships. (expect the non scholarship teams duh) Heck now we even got a decent amount of teams now offering full cost of attendance! And TV coverage? Espn only televised the D2 National Championship game. Even regionally it's not even close. SDSU and USD get more TV coverage than NDSU got during their D2 hey days. NDSU now gets more TV coverage than many FBS teams.

Look at facilities... yeah we had the dome back then but there weren't enough good teams to even interest fans to fill the fucker up. I mean there is quite the difference between Morningside, Augustana, Mankato State, St Cloud State and compare it to say Youngstown, UNI, and Illinois State. Playoffs? Sorry but the Montana's, Eastern Washington's, and [enter CAA] teams are actually good quality games that people want to see.

Back in the D2 days we were one of the only team that actually drew 10K fans per game. Now pretty much every team in our conference draws 10K fans.How many D2 teams have indoor practice facilities like SDSU, Youngstown, and UND? The dome is an awesome facility but unlike the D2 days, we're not the only team that has good attendance and nice stadiums. Heck look at SDSU, Youngstown, Montana, UNI, James Madison, Jacksonville State and compare their stadiums to the D2 days. Not even close. Heck most of you guys don't even realize James Madison averaged more fans than we did last year. The top D2 conferences draw about the same as the Non Scholarship Patriot League draw. The super crappy drawing conferences are the NEC and Patriot, who would still be in the top quarter of D2

2015 NCAA DIVISION II FOOTBALL CONFERENCE ATTENDANCE
Total 2015 Change
Rank Division II Teams Games Attendance Average In Avg.
1. Southern Intercollegiate# 11 54 328,016 6,074
2. Lone Star 7 42 246,431 5,867
3. Gulf South 7 41 220,010 5,366
4. Mid-America 12 69 359,541 5,211
5. Central Intercollegiate 12 53 167,599 3,162
6. Great Lakes Intercol. 15 83 256,735 3,093
7. Great Northwest 7 36 110,944 3,082
8. Great American# 11 63 189,341 3,005
9. Northern Sun 16 89 241,682 2,716
10. Pennsylvania 16 92 240,050 2,609
11. South Atlantic 8 44 112,001 2,545
12. Rocky Mountain 10 54 122,209 2,263
13. Great Lakes Valley 9 44 99,325 2,257
14. Mountain East# 11 62 111,673 1,801
15. Northeast-10 10 55 89,490 1,627

2015 NCAA DIVISION I FCS CONFERENCE ATTENDANCE
Total 2015 Change
Rank Division I FCS Teams Games Attendance Average In Avg.
1. Southwestern Athletic 10 51 653,962 12,823
2. Missouri Valley Football 10 60 654,948 10,916
3. Big Sky 13 70 691,412 9,877
4. Ohio Valley 9 48 435,719 9,077
5. Colonial 12 68 612,425 9,006
6. Mid-Eastern 11 52 464,749 8,937
7. Ivy 8 39 345,724 8,865
8. Southern 8 46 377,674 8,210
9. Southland 9 50 372,987 7,460
10. Big South# 7 40 *291,162 7,279
11. Patriot 7 38 211,844 5,575
12. Pioneer 11 61 209,921 3,441
13. Northeast 7 35 93,154 2,662
FCS Independent# 1 6 42,769 7,128

So essentially we are back to what I previously stated...with the addition of competition:

Collectively we are essentially saying that there is a difference between the 4th Level of FB (DII) and the 3rd Level of FB (FCS).

Essential the 3 broad categories below are the primary differences and as result the following has occurred..........

1) A Higher cost (to the fans, University);

But has resulted in a

1) Higher level of quality (facilities, coaches, players, competition) and
2) Created more exposure for the university and community. (ESPN, NFL, TV, Radio)


However, as teams move up and out of the FCS, it seems to feel a bit ( at least in the teams we play) like the old DII days?


Is this a fair assessment and am I missing anything?

[ndsubison1]

There are some D2 teams that should be FCS and some FCS that should be D2/D3. No doubt in my mind NWMSU would be an Fcs playoff team. Could prolly win the Southland this past season.

[56BISON73]

So essentially we are back to what I previously stated...with the addition of competition:

Collectively we are essentially saying that there is a difference between the 4th Level of FB (DII) and the 3rd Level of FB (FCS).

Essential the 3 broad categories below are the primary differences and as result the following has occurred..........

1) A Higher cost (to the fans, University);

But has resulted in a

1) Higher level of quality (facilities, coaches, players, competition) and
2) Created more exposure for the university and community. (ESPN, NFL, TV, Radio)


However, as teams move up and out of the FCS, it seems to feel a bit ( at least in the teams we play) like the old DII days?


Is this a fair assessment?

So have you arrived at your predetermined conclusion? :D

[MAKBison]

So have you arrived at your predetermined conclusion? :D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlN4kX72dVU


I don't know are you fully self-aware

[HerdBot]

So essentially we are back to what I previously stated...with the addition of competition:

Collectively we are essentially saying that there is a difference between the 4th Level of FB (DII) and the 3rd Level of FB (FCS).

Essential the 3 broad categories below are the primary differences and as result the following has occurred..........

1) A Higher cost (to the fans, University);

But has resulted in a

1) Higher level of quality (facilities, coaches, players, competition) and
2) Created more exposure for the university and community. (ESPN, NFL, TV, Radio)


However, as teams move up and out of the FCS, it seems to feel a bit ( at least in the teams we play) like the old DII days?


Is this a fair assessment and am I missing anything?

I won't take the bait on the 4th level of football trolling attempt..

But I would say that virtually every team has twice as many scholarships as D2 which results in a vastly superior quality of football. These teams that also tend to spend money on facilities, recruiting, marketing, have larger athletic budgets including Full Cost Of Attendance, and have the support of conferences that market their teams better. So at the end of the day you have a great brand of football and it looks prettier because we play in nicer stadiums and stuff.

[MAKBison]

I won't take the bait on the 4th level of football trolling attempt..

But I would say that virtually every team has twice as many scholarships as D2 which results in a vastly superior quality of football. These teams that also tend to spend money on facilities, recruiting, marketing, have larger athletic budgets including Full Cost Of Attendance, and have the support of conferences that market their teams better. So at the end of the day you have a great brand of football and it looks prettier because we play in nicer stadiums and stuff.

2 questions:

1.What is wrong with labeling what they really are? FCS is the 3rd level of FB if you disagree with DII being the 4th, Fine. Call it what you want. However, FCS is the 3rd level no doubt no question.

2. So my categories are correct as they now sit?

Look I am not trying to trick you or direct anyone into one direction or another...I don’t have a predetermined outcome here. My intent is to try and understand what are the differences. I am really just looking/asking for consciousness. That is/was all my question intended....a study of consciousness

So far we have:

1) A Higher cost (to the fans, University);
2) Higher level of quality (facilities, coaches, players, competition) and
3) Created more exposure for the university and community. (ESPN, NFL, TV, Radio)

[HerdBot]

2 questions:
What is wrong with labeling what they really are? FCS is the 3rd level of FB if you disagree with DII being the 4th., Fine call it what you want. However, FCS is the 3rd level no doubt no question.
So my categories are correct as they now sit?

Then why not call the MVFC, BSC, and CAA 4th level and the rest of the FCS the 5th level and the top D2 teams 6th level and the bottom D2 teams the 7th level? It's all relative

[MAKBison]

Then why not call the MVFC, BSC, and CAA 4th level and the rest of the FCS the 5th level and the top D2 teams 6th level and the bottom D2 teams the 7th level?

Because as doubtful as it might be, teams from the FCS conferences that you noted actually do have a chance to be in the PO whereas G5 teams really do not. Just the mere creation of the term G5 and P5 eludes to them being separate. Notice there is no such designation in the FCS…I could get into the whole sociology of the later if you like…JK…well sorta.

[MAKBison]

Let me get this out before you go posting there are actually none PO conference in the FCS…. I know that is going to be your next argument;-) But, as I stated, to be real there needs to be some semblance of shared interpretation. As of right now, no one really identifies there being a real split in the FCS between NO PO and PO confernces. I will throw you a bone tho. I do think that because of their being an actual split there is the chance for an argumentbeing made that none FCS PO teams should being labled as the 4th level. Still does not change the fact FCS is the 3rd level.

[HerdBot]

Because as doubtful as it might be, teams from the FCS conferences that you noted actually do have a chance to be in the PO whereas G5 teams really do not. Just the mere creation of the term G5 and P5 eludes to them being separate. Notice there is no such designation in the FCS…I could get into the whole sociology of the later if you like…JK…well sorta.

Making the FCS Playoffs isn't even a big deal with 24 teams and weak conference auto bids. We all know that only 6 or 7 teams have a real chance to win the National Championship.

The G5 is basically the same with 6 or 7 teams having a shot at the playoffs. So teams like Minnesota, even though they are in the Big Ten have as much of a chance a say... Southern Utah

It's 2 levels with the elite at both levels

[MAKBison]

Making the FCS Playoffs isn't even a big deal with 24 teams and weak conference auto bids. We all know that only 6 or 7 teams have a real chance to win the National Championship.

The G5 is basically the same with 6 or 7 teams having a shot at the playoffs. So teams like Minnesota, even though they are in the Big Ten have as much of a chance a say... Southern Utah

It's 2 levels with the elite at both levels

Sure every conference has it haves and have nots, but society has decided to divide the FBS into the G5 and the P5. It doe snot fo that in the FCS or within the P5. There is a reason for that...because we all know FBS is really two different levels.

Now on another issue that bugs me, even tho it has nothing to do with this thread....some of you suggest the top tier FCS and G5 are so similar that the only real difference is just the label. This is not a vlaid argumentneed so stop using the the very little difference argument between G5 and FCS.

[Duke Dawg]

Fcs has taken a huge hit when ODU, CCU, Georgia Southern and App st moved up. Big big big hit. I wouldn't be so against staying fcs if those guys were still at this level. And I know someone is going to pipe in and say you can do the same to fbs when Alabama, Clemson Ohio state and Michigan are taken out.. but we get absolute hard ons beating the rest of the teams so I'm not going to call them a shitty level of football like I did below to the fcs

I think once you take out the ndsus,sdsus,uni, Montanas, ewus, James Madison's, jsus Sam houstons...You have a pretty shitty level of football that would blend right in with d2.

As a JMU fan, I can concur about the hit to FCS when those teams left. But it's even more than just them. In the last 5-10 years, you've also seen UMass, Charlotte, WKU, UTSA, South Alabama, Texas State, all leave. (i won't include Georgia State because they have no fans. ha!)

that's a lot of really solid, well supported programs that have left. If they had all stayed in FCS, the whole division would really be tight and intense and the regular season would be much better. Whereas now, you can almost pencil in half the playoff teams before a ball is even kicked.

its a watered down product for sure. And that's a damn shame. because while I'm for us moving to FBS, I would also be completely content and thrilled to have a stacked FCS to compete in. The playoffs are way better than the G5 bowl games. And no one in a G5 conference has any chance of ever winning a title. Or probably even making the 4 team playoff.

[wagsabison]

As a JMU fan, I can concur about the hit to FCS when those teams left. But it's even more than just them. In the last 5-10 years, you've also seen UMass, Charlotte, WKU, UTSA, South Alabama, Texas State, all leave. (i won't include Georgia State because they have no fans. ha!)

that's a lot of really solid, well supported programs that have left. If they had all stayed in FCS, the whole division would really be tight and intense and the regular season would be much better. Whereas now, you can almost pencil in half the playoff teams before a ball is even kicked.

its a watered down product for sure. And that's a damn shame. because while I'm for us moving to FBS, I would also be completely content and thrilled to have a stacked FCS to compete in. The playoffs are way better than the G5 bowl games. And no one in a G5 conference has any chance of ever winning a title. Or probably even making the 4 team playoff.

Well said. App State and Georgia Southern are fresher in our mind because they were the more recent teams to leave. Some of the others you mentioned left when we were going through our transition.

[HerdBot]

Wanna see how watered down D2 football is? Since 2002, the following teams have won National Championships.

Grand Valley State (4) and lost (1)
Minnesota Duluth (2)
Northwest Missouri State (4) and lost (4)
Valdosta State (3) and lost (1)
Pittsburgh State (1) and lost (1)

The only anomaly was CSU Pueblo

If you go back another 10-15 years it was basically NDSU, Northern Colorado, Troy, North Alabama, Pittsburgh State, Northwest Missouri State, Jacksonville State, etc...

Most of the teams from the prior decade all moved up. That's where we will find the future strength of the FCS

On the flip side, the FCS has basically been NDSU, Montana, Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, Marshall, Youngstown, and some sprinkled in CAA teams

[MNLonghorn10]

Wanna see how watered down D2 football is? Since 2002, the following teams have won National Championships.

Grand Valley State (4) and lost (1)
Minnesota Duluth (2)
Northwest Missouri State (4) and lost (4)
Valdosta State (3) and lost (1)
Pittsburgh State (1) and lost (1)

The only anomaly was CSU Pueblo

If you go back another 10-15 years it was basically NDSU, Northern Colorado, Troy, North Alabama, Pittsburgh State, Northwest Missouri State, Jacksonville State, etc...

Most of the teams from the prior decade all moved up. That's where we will find the future strength of the FCS
And some actually defend this.

[Hammerhead]

You could argue that 1 or 2 seeds this year had no chance to win it all, but there is an unseeded team in the championship game. :)


Making the FCS Playoffs isn't even a big deal with 24 teams and weak conference auto bids. We all know that only 6 or 7 teams have a real chance to win the National Championship.

The G5 is basically the same with 6 or 7 teams having a shot at the playoffs. So teams like Minnesota, even though they are in the Big Ten have as much of a chance a say... Southern Utah

It's 2 levels with the elite at both levels

[Duke Dawg]

i posted this on our JMU board. I know my Dukes will never reach the level of the P5 and the gap is only going to widen. So let those schools go off and play semi-NFL ball. I enjoy watching it every Saturday. it the best most entertaining sport going.
But i'd also like a good 2nd tier that features well supported programs that play a high level of college football and has schools committed to supporting their programs. Not cluttered with smaller schools and private schools that will never reach the level of getting 20,000+ at games. So here's a start of a potential division:

CAA (or whatever you want to name the league
North: JMU, Richmond, W&M, ODU, Delaware, Villanova, Towson
South: Coastal, MTSU, WKU, Charlotte, App St, W. Carolina, Chattanooga

Sun Belt
East: FIU, FAU, UAB, So Miss, Ga Southern, Troy, South Alabama
West: Ark St, ULL, ULM, McNeese, Texas St, SHSU, Cent Arkansas

MAC
East: Ohio, Miami, Buffalo, Akron, Kent, Marshall, UMass
West: WMU, CMU, EMU, Toledo, B. Green, N Illinois, Ball St

MVC
East: YSU, Indiana St, Ill St, West Ill, So Ill, Missouri St, No Iowa
West: NDSU, SDSU, N Dakota, S Dakota, Montana, Montana St, Idaho

that leaves out some other schools that will have to find a home that would hopefully be able to be involved in this:

Liberty, Jax St, Ga State, Kennesaw St, Albany, Stony Brook, UNH, NM State, Lamar, Eastern Kentucky, Eastern Illinois, Murray St, Weber St, No Colorado, No Arizona, Eastern Washington

these are the best supported teams in FCS that have a higher ceiling than most do. it eliminates those that cannot compete consistently in FCS and a playoff with this group would be fantastic. and a title won would have to be hard fought and well earned.

[HerdBot]

You could argue that 1 or 2 seeds this year had no chance to win it all, but there is an unseeded team in the championship game. :)

1 seed was tied in the 4th quarter until a bogus time out was called and a bogus offsides
2 seed lost with 1 second on the clock

And the seeding was a joke anyways... The committee actually thought Jacksonville State was better

[cx500d]

One thing I will say is FCS is much worse overall than I ever imagined when moving up from D2. There were a lot of people who said we could compete in the FCS in the 80's and I didn't necessarily believe them. My thought was every FCS school was like Montana with 20K fans at every game. The fact is FCS isn't much better than D2 from attendance outside of the top 25 teams. The talent in the top 25 is better, but NDSU would of been a fringe top 25 team just like they are now with FBS.
The biggest difference is by far the national exposure which has increased enrollment drastically and moved NDSU from a dying school in the 90's to a more big time feel.

We also beat UNI after they moved up in either 1982 or 1983 (too much peppermint schnapps consumed at Dakota Field to remember the year)

[CaBisonFan]

Some of the national championship teams were certainly capable of challenging a DI program of that era. Would love to have seen them play Minnesota.

[cx500d]

Some of the national championship teams were certainly capable of challenging a DI program of that era. Would love to have seen them play Minnesota.

Me too, since Minnesota has sucked for something like half a century.

[Grizzled]

I asked the question to get a feeling of what people think are the diff., not start a FBS/FCS/DII debate. It seems that the only real difference is the $$$$$ involved and all that comes with that...a higher quality product. The teams that we play now compared to the teams that we used to play are a wash.

I would argue the biggest advantage has been the marketing of NDSU to a broader audience.

If the product is better than they are different. It's what you expect moving up a level.

[Hammerhead]

I wrote that that one or two of the 8 seeded teams (not the #1 and #2 seeds) had no chance to win the championship. :)


1 seed was tied in the 4th quarter until a bogus time out was called and a bogus offsides
2 seed lost with 1 second on the clock

And the seeding was a joke anyways... The committee actually thought Jacksonville State was better

[56BISON73]

Let me get this out before you go posting there are actually none PO conference in the FCS…. I know that is going to be your next argument;-) But, as I stated, to be real there needs to be some semblance of shared interpretation. As of right now, no one really identifies there being a real split in the FCS between NO PO and PO confernces. I will throw you a bone tho. I do think that because of their being an actual split there is the chance for an argumentbeing made that none FCS PO teams should being labled as the 4th level. Still does not change the fact FCS is the 3rd level.

There you go----work it baby---work it.:biggrin:

[HerdBot]

I wrote that that one or two of the 8 seeded teams (not the #1 and #2 seeds) had no chance to win the championship. :)

sorry misread :)

[NorthernBison]

FCS is the 2nd level of college football.

All FBS programs are playing for the same prize. It's unfortunate that the G5 programs are like the geeks who think the cool kids might just invite them too the party. It's sad really. You'd like to feel sorry for them but their stupidity is their own problem.

The "market" is already sending them signals that they aren't smart enough to understand. The Sun Belt TV contract renewed at something like 10% of the previous contract? Is that correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MAKBison]

FCS is the 2nd level of college football.

All FBS programs are playing for the same prize. It's unfortunate that the G5 programs are like the geeks who think the cool kids might just invite them too the party. It's sad really. You'd like to feel sorry for them but their stupidity is their own problem.

The "market" is already sending them signals that they aren't smart enough to understand. The Sun Belt TV contract renewed at something like 10% of the previous contract? Is that correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Then why does a shared label that splits the FBS into two groups (G5-P5) exist? As pointed out, you could easily split the FCS into two groups; Yet, no terminology exists to do this. The current reality as of right now is that there are three D1 levels.

Top FBS P5
Middle FBS G5
Bottom FCS

The debate is this should certain teams in the FCS be hanging out with the G5 FBS kids. The reality is this....Despite what some of the one-off teams have done, the FBS G5 teams are not going to drop down to the 3rd level. More likely, the G5 will form their own club at the 2nd level. NDSU leadership suggests we should be at the 2nd level. However, that was based on the the FBS brekaing up. The realaity is that all of the resons some of use to argue not moving up are not going to go away even if an offical split between G5 & P5 occures. The cost and benfit are going to be the same (less the FCS becomes the a more expensive version of DII..if that happens jumping is a no brainer)

Regardless, what we need to do to decide is if the cost of moving from the 3rd level of FB up to the 2nd level of FB is worth it.

What I have done is to try and set up a decision model that we might use to make a rational decision versus inganging in this endless loop of tit for tat. I think this can be done by examing what we know based on our f last jump..... is it worth it to jump

I think we all agree jumping to FCS was a good thing. It looks like we also agree the primary difference is such
1 The resources needed to compete is greater
2. The entire product is much better
3. The University and Community/State exposure is much greater
4. The FCS is slowly turning into the D11 (the teams that have left and might move up)

So the next question are these.
1. How much more money do we spend now (FCS) than before (Dii)?
2. On a scale of 1-10 how much better is the total product?
3. On a scale of 1-10 how much greater has the exposure been
4. at what point is the FCS a more expensive version of DII.....I don't know how to quantify this yet

[Bisonwinagn]

The ROI has been massive for the move up. There is no question on that and I'm sure someone to come up with the analyses. How much more value is there in FCS is a good question, but I don't see anything going G5 that would be of value.

[THEsocalledfan]

The ROI has been massive for the move up. There is no question on that and I'm sure someone to come up with the analyses. How much more value is there in FCS is a good question, but I don't see anything going G5 that would be of value.

The ONLY value I can see in a G5 move is to allow the B1G more losses to us. Other than that, I don't see anything.

[MAKBison]

The ONLY value I can see in a G5 move is to allow the B1G more losses to us. Other than that, I don't see anything.

And that equates to a lot more exposure and possibly higher quality player etc.

Thats why you create a model so you can actually see the value.

All you/ we are doing is guessing.

[MAKBison]

The ROI has been massive for the move up. There is no question on that and I'm sure someone to come up with the analyses. How much more value is there in FCS is a good question, but I don't see anything going G5 that would be of value.

Well we can pretty much predict that the quality of ball wii improve, there will be more exposure and it's going to cost more...... we can pretty much expect the same results we got moving up from D2 to fcs.

However the improvements are not going to be as significant... Most likely

And, the costs are going to be much higher... Most likely

The decision needs to be made in that cost benefit ratio. We might find that staying in the third level of football is much better than moving to the second level or we might find that the cost is worth the jump... But we need to run the numbers. all we are doing now is guessing.

[ZHerd]

As long as we are performing our rightful duty as fans and analyzing and voicing conclusions of stuff we have no control over anyways, I'm thinking we should come up with a gameplan or method of convincing current FCS teams not to jump ship and advertising to current G5's to get them to move to FCS. Notice I didn't say move DOWN to FCS because so much of it is perceptual. It a move down based on national mindsets and they have a overall better level of competition. Yet, FCS has a FAR superior system and if more of the good G5 programs moved to FCS it would easily be a better product than G5. Earlier I mentioned imagining a playoffs with NDSU, Houston, UNI, Jacks, Cincinatti, UCF, JMU, GA Southern, EW, Boise St. and the list goes on. It would be an awesome slate of football games. But also consider how much recruits love playoffs. The FCS playoffs are currently a recruiting tool. Both FCS schools and more so, G5 schools already beat P5 schools for the occasional 2-4 star recruits. If the merger with playoffs started P5 would lose even more recruits as that playoff system increased in popularity/notoriety. Kids love playoffs and you would see some shift in recruit talent/distribution.

[Bisonator98]

F*** it let's go B1G or go home! Who says we can't win championships against the big boys like 'bama? All we need is about $100 Billion let's start a go fund me page! Who's with me???:hide:

[Hammerhead]

What kind of increased exposure are you looking for? If you want more games on national TV, get prepared for 11:00 AM kickoffs or weeknight games. Playing in a bowl game might get some more exposure, but it it worth giving up playoff games for those of use who follow the Bison.

[SDbison]

F*** it let's go B1G or go home! Who says we can't win championships against the big boys like 'bama? All we need is about $100 Billion let's start a go fund me page! Who's with me???:hide: Sorry, you go ahead and live in the past. FCS is essentially the old DII.

[silkamilkamonico]

Yea move up already. It's been fun going for championships, and Bowl games do suck. But move up and make a run for the big time. Be that program that creates a stir in the playoff selection committee by dominating those mid major conferences year after year. I'm sick and tired of these big games, even though they are fun, playing no name teams in the college football world. College football doesn't know or care who James Madison is. They don't care who Jacksonville St is. They care who Alabama, Ohio St, Michigan, Oklahoma, Clemson, Florida St are.

They also care who Boise St, Houston, San Diego St, and Temple are. If you can build your program into the best of your conference year after year and put wrenches in the selection committee's process by making them sweat in winning every week, they will care about you. NDSU can be a program like this.

[mtoutfitter]

One thing I don't hear mentioned in this argument is the type of player that would be required to compete in the next division. I think you're gonna be looking at a different type of player, especially at the skill positions.....possibly more inner city type kids? With that type of kid comes baggage, will possible problems be tolerated by the citizens of the F-M area, even by statewide/regional fans?

Also will that type of kid buy into the whole Bison culture....I'm guessing a lot of them won't. Kids I see at the upper level programs seem to be more "it's all about me/what can you do for me" .......

Personally I like the kind of kids they have now that seem to buy into the Bison culture and try to help instill it into those that come after them.....just my two cents.

P.S. Possibly put this in the wrong thread but most of em seem to evolve into this discussion anyway so I'm not sure it matters.

[ZHerd]

One thing I don't hear mentioned in this argument is the type of player that would be required to compete in the next division. I think you're gonna be looking at a different type of player, especially at the skill positions.....possibly more inner city type kids? With that type of kid comes baggage, will possible problems be tolerated by the citizens of the F-M area, even by statewide/regional fans?

Also will that type of kid buy into the whole Bison culture....I'm guessing a lot of them won't. Kids I see at the upper level programs seem to be more "it's all about me/what can you do for me" .......

Personally I like the kind of kids they have now that seem to buy into the Bison culture and try to help instill it into those that come after them.....just my two cents.

P.S. Possibly put this in the wrong thread but most of em seem to evolve into this discussion anyway so I'm not sure it matters.

Some truth in what your saying but CJ, Marcus, Colten, and Christian were P5 skill players playing Bison ball and never had those issues

[mtoutfitter]

Some truth in what your saying but CJ, Marcus, Colten, and Christian were P5 skill players playing Bison ball and never had those issues

Not trying to argue but I'd hardly call Dudzick or Heagle inner city type kids....not even CJ who comes from the Burbs in Savage. Yep, could say that about Marcus...no issues that I know of, but increase the roster size and chances are gonna go way up when recruiting a different type of kid.

[ZHerd]

Not trying to argue but I'd hardly call Dudzick or Heagle inner city type kids....not even CJ who comes from the Burbs in Savage. Yep, could say that about Marcus...no issues that I know of, but increase the roster size and chances are gonna go way up when recruiting a different type of kid.

I'm not saying they are inner city kids, I'm saying they don't need to recruit a different type of person/place to get solid FBS talent with good character. If they moved up they probably would have a better shot at landing athletes from around the country though

[ByeSonBusiness]

One thing I don't hear mentioned in this argument is the type of player that would be required to compete in the next division. I think you're gonna be looking at a different type of player, especially at the skill positions.....possibly more inner city type kids? With that type of kid comes baggage, will possible problems be tolerated by the citizens of the F-M area, even by statewide/regional fans?

Also will that type of kid buy into the whole Bison culture....I'm guessing a lot of them won't. Kids I see at the upper level programs seem to be more "it's all about me/what can you do for me" .......

Personally I like the kind of kids they have now that seem to buy into the Bison culture and try to help instill it into those that come after them.....just my two cents.

P.S. Possibly put this in the wrong thread but most of em seem to evolve into this discussion anyway so I'm not sure it matters.

Lol just win baby.

On a serious note, there is no rule that you need to recruit trashy people at the FBS level.

I bet they get in trouble at a similar rate to FCS schools...but people are more likely to give a shit if it happens at am FBS school.

[Bison bison]

also academics.

i think ndsu would do just fine doing what it's doing. probably get a few guys who get hung up on the FBS/FCS thing that we don't now.

[BisonFan13]

I've kind of thought the same thing. When you turn a game on, it seems like all FCS schools used to be Division II in the 80's. The rules with scholarships is about the same.

[steelbison]

Yea move up already. It's been fun going for championships, and Bowl games do suck. But move up and make a run for the big time. Be that program that creates a stir in the playoff selection committee by dominating those mid major conferences year after year. I'm sick and tired of these big games, even though they are fun, playing no name teams in the college football world. College football doesn't know or care who James Madison is. They don't care who Jacksonville St is. They care who Alabama, Ohio St, Michigan, Oklahoma, Clemson, Florida St are.

They also care who Boise St, Houston, San Diego St, and Temple are. If you can build your program into the best of your conference year after year and put wrenches in the selection committee's process by making them sweat in winning every week, they will care about you. NDSU can be a program like this.

Serious Clark? It wouldn't matter if we were undefeated and won the MAC or Mountain West every year. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that the selection committee would consider us or any other school in those Crappy Leagues.

If you are not from a P5 conference you have ZERO shot..period.

BTW no one cares about SDSU or Temple..you are kidding yourself. Just like no ones cares about Bowling Green, Wyoming, Ball State, ECT.....


Now when the G5 schools start there own Playoff which they are currently looking at then you have something to move up to. Until then we don't...

[MAKBison]

Serious Clark? It wouldn't matter if we were undefeated and won the MAC or Mountain West every year. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that the selection committee would consider us or any other school in those Crappy Leagues.

If you are not from a P5 conference you have ZERO shot..period.

BTW no one cares about SDSU or Temple..you are kidding yourself. Just like no ones cares about Bowling Green, Wyoming, Ball State, ECT.....


Now when the G5 schools start there own Playoff which they are currently looking at then you have something to move up to. Until then we don't...

Bingo and like i said....FBS g5 is not moving down to fcs. If we are to be in the second-tier of football as our administrators have said that is where we need to be........ndsu has gotta move up to the FBS G5.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/group-of-five-teams-considering-their-own-playoff-after-feeling-jilted-by-the-cfp-163808257.html

[silkamilkamonico]

Bingo and like i said....FBS g5 is not moving down to fcs. If we are to be in the second-tier of football as our administrators have said that is where we need to be........ndsu has gotta move up to the FBS G5.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/group-of-five-teams-considering-their-own-playoff-after-feeling-jilted-by-the-cfp-163808257.html

If talks go through like they will and they do end up with a playoff for the G5, NDSU will then be in a D3 type scenario. It will be Division 3, tier 3, level 3, call it whatever you want but it will be a 3rd tier type.

[ByeSonBusiness]

If talks go through like they will and they do end up with a playoff for the G5, NDSU will then be in a D3 type scenario. It will be Division 3, tier 3, level 3, call it whatever you want but it will be a 3rd tier type.

And assuming they strike a TV deal, I wouldn't count on "The top of fcs" people like to talk about being invited to panticipate.

[silkamilkamonico]

Serious Clark? It wouldn't matter if we were undefeated and won the MAC or Mountain West every year. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that the selection committee would consider us or any other school in those Crappy Leagues.

If you are not from a P5 conference you have ZERO shot..period.

BTW no one cares about SDSU or Temple..you are kidding yourself. Just like no ones cares about Bowling Green, Wyoming, Ball State, ECT.....


Now when the G5 schools start there own Playoff which they are currently looking at then you have something to move up to. Until then we don't...

Houston and Boise St are relevant. ANy G5 school is relevant the longer they go in the season undefeated. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. They may not have a chance but they are in the conversation.

FCS a.k. D2 or D3 is boring. Move up already. Last year we played a team in the NC that majority of NDSU fans thought were from Florida.

[silkamilkamonico]

And assuming they strike a TV deal, I wouldn't count on "The top of fcs" people like to talk about being invited to panticipate.

Wouldn't work. They aren't a part of the same system of rules. There's a reason why FBS can only count 1 win a year against an FCS team.

[MAKBison]

If talks go through like they will and they do end up with a playoff for the G5, NDSU will then be in a D3 type scenario. It will be Division 3, tier 3, level 3, call it whatever you want but it will be a 3rd tier type.

The FCS is already the third tier of football it's just that there's not much to gain in going to the second tier versus the cost. A playoff system in the second-tier changes all of that

[Mr Meaty]

Houston and Boise St are relevant. ANy G5 school is relevant the longer they go in the season undefeated. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. They may not have a chance but they are in the conversation.

FCS a.k. D2 or D3 is boring. Move up already. Last year we played a team in the NC that majority of NDSU fans thought were from Florida.

That is because a lot of "fans" do not know anything about anything. The same goes for the "move up". The only real way would be if the G5 decide to reduce schollies. The financial costs would then be reduced for current FCS teams. I do not see that happening. Now lets say that NDSU says lets start a new conference to move up into a G5 type league. Who is coming with us to form this league? We will never be invited into a current G5 conference. location location location

[ByeSonBusiness]

That is because a lot of "fans" do not know anything about anything. The same goes for the "move up". The only real way would be if the G5 decide to reduce schollies. The financial costs would then be reduced for current FCS teams. I do not see that happening. Now lets say that NDSU says lets start a new conference to move up into a G5 type league. Who is coming with us to form this league? We will never be invited into a current G5 conference. location location location

I am about 99% sure you can't just create an FBS conference.

[MAKBison]

That is because a lot of "fans" do not know anything about anything. The same goes for the "move up". The only real way would be if the G5 decide to reduce schollies. The financial costs would then be reduced for current FCS teams. I do not see that happening. Now lets say that NDSU says lets start a new conference to move up into a G5 type league. Who is coming with us to form this league? We will never be invited into a current G5 conference. location location location

Why do you keep insisting on location location location when there's plenty of Articles out there that suggests location location location just isn't the case it's about National Brands not Regional Brands and National brands are created buy the product that's put on the field

[THEsocalledfan]

The FCS is already the third tier of football it's just that there's not much to gain in going to the second tier versus the cost. A playoff system in the second-tier changes all of that

Bingo, bingo, bingo.......let's keep hoping for change and for a P5 breakoff. We just need to be ready.

[NDSUstudent]

If the G5 is going to have a playoff, there is zero point at all in being FCS. If our admin doesn't get us moved up, it will be D2 all over again.

[Bison 4 Life]

Houston and Boise St are relevant. ANy G5 school is relevant the longer they go in the season undefeated. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. They may not have a chance but they are in the conversation.

FCS a.k. D2 or D3 is boring. Move up already. Last year we played a team in the NC that majority of NDSU fans thought were from Florida.

That's funny, I know people (me included) who thought Troy was in Ohio. Aren't they FBS?

[silkamilkamonico]

That is because a lot of "fans" do not know anything about anything. The same goes for the "move up". The only real way would be if the G5 decide to reduce schollies. The financial costs would then be reduced for current FCS teams. I do not see that happening. Now lets say that NDSU says lets start a new conference to move up into a G5 type league. Who is coming with us to form this league? We will never be invited into a current G5 conference. location location location

That's not really true. A lot of NDSU fans follow college football (FBS), and then follow NDSU. There's nothing wrong with that. I watch a ton of college football every Saturday. I watch 1 game from FCS. NDSU. That's it. I'm not wasting any time watching anything else from FCS when there are a ton of better games on throughout the day. I group a loyal NDSU fan. It's my first memory of sporting events, freezing my ass off at dacotah field. I didn't waste my time watching any D2 games either. I watched what was on TV, and the good games between ranked teams. Sometimes those good games don't even involve P5 conference teams.

[silkamilkamonico]

That's funny, I know people (me included) who thought Troy was in Ohio. Aren't they FBS?

I don't know, do they have a professional football team that put's their city on the college football world? I'm going to guess no.

[SDbison]

If the G5 is going to have a playoff, there is zero point at all in being FCS. If the our admin doesn't get us moved up, it will be D2 all over again.
Now this sums it all up. If G5 does a playoff the FCS becomes as relevant as D2. Pull your heads out NDSU experts. What are you doing about this? Please share with teammakers.

[THEsocalledfan]

Now this sums it all up. If G5 does a playoff the FCS becomes as relevant as D2. Pull your heads out NDSU experts. What are you doing about this? Please share with teammakers.

Did I miss something where G5 is openly talking about a PO? Or, is this the hypothetical P5 split?

[NDSUstudent]

Did I miss something where G5 is openly talking about a PO? Or, is this the hypothetical P5 split?

A few G5 AD's(NIU seems to be leading the charge) are starting to make some noise. That said the AAC is still very much against it, then again they did put P6 on the helmets of all the AAC teams competing in bowls.

[THEsocalledfan]

A few G5 AD's(NIU seems to be leading the charge) are starting to make some noise. That said the AAC is still very much against it, then again they did put P6 on the helmets of all the AAC teams competing in bowls.

I love that attitude; you are completely getting screwed and you act like you aren't. Great strategy.

[tony]

A few G5 AD's(NIU seems to be leading the charge) are starting to make some noise. That said the AAC is still very much against it, then again they did put P6 on the helmets of all the AAC teams competing in bowls.

If they go that route, I don't see why they don't go to the FCS.

[Bison bison]

Kind of funny how it would be more enticing to go FBS if it was more like FCS.

[NDSUstudent]

If they go that route, I don't see why they don't go to the FCS.

A playoff works a lot better without the NCAA mucking it up.

[56BISON73]

A playoff works a lot better without the NCAA mucking it up.

Thats worked wonders for the FBS. :biggrin:

[NDSUstudent]

Thats worked wonders for the FBS. :biggrin:

It has worked exactly how the P5 wants it to work. Create ratings/drama, crown a champ while keeping the main bowl games somewhat relevant and the regular season meaningful.

The G5 could have a 12-16 team playoff, sell the TV rights and keep all the gate revenue to themselves. Keep the NCAA's greedy mitts out of it.

[ByeSonBusiness]

It has worked exactly how the P5 wants it to work. Create ratings/drama, crown a champ while keeping the main bowl games somewhat relevant and the regular season meaningful.

The G5 could have a 12-16 team playoff, sell the TV rights and keep all the gate revenue to themselves. Keep the NCAA's greedy mitts out of it.

If the G5 held a 12-16 team playoff it would be dumb.

The FBS has had the best regular season in American sport for the last century or so.

That's actually the awesome thing about the FBS. The regular season is the playoff pretty much. It's baller. Way more fun than taking 24 teams when hardly any of them are cool.

[Hammerhead]

There are around 60 or so teams in the G5 confernces and you want to have at least 12 in a playoff? Who's going to care about the #3 team from the AAC vs the #1 team from the MWC when there are bowl games with P5 teams and FBS playoff games.



It has worked exactly how the P5 wants it to work. Create ratings/drama, crown a champ while keeping the main bowl games somewhat relevant and the regular season meaningful.

The G5 could have a 12-16 team playoff, sell the TV rights and keep all the gate revenue to themselves. Keep the NCAA's greedy mitts out of it.

[NDSUstudent]

There are around 60 or so teams in the G5 confernces and you want to have at least 12 in a playoff? Who's going to care about the #3 team from the AAC vs the #1 team from the MWC when there are bowl games with P5 teams and FBS playoff games.

They would play long before the FBS playoff games and most of the bowls that mean anything. This is just replacing bowl games that nobody cares about, with playoff games that would be a bit more interesting.

They could go outside of the box and even invite P5 teams, make into an NIT tournament for football.

[barnwintersportsengelstad]

NO, you have 5 Div I FCS Natty's.

[KC7]

I don't understand what you're looking for in an answer. Would the 1990 NDSU football team been able to beat the 1990 Iowa Hawkeyes? No I don't beleive so, nothing against those players or that team which was one of NDSU's best ever but IMO there is just simply not the talent from every position nor the depth to compete at that level. So to answer your question, no I don't see FCS as a rebranded version of the old DII.

The 1990 Team ended up being ranked 38th in all of college football according to Massey Rankings. Iowa that year was 21st. Also of Note, the Div 1AA National Champion Georgia Southern was ranked behind the Div. 2 National Champion NDSU. That actually happened quite often in the 80's. The 1986 Team was off the charts superior to Div 1AA teams their year.

When Div. 2 started cutting scholarships was when the gap started to increase. However remember the 2003 Bison (Div2) took care of highly ranked Montana.

[SDbison]

The 1990 Team ended up being ranked 38th in all of college football according to Massey Rankings. Iowa that year was 21st. Also of Note, the Div 1AA National Champion Georgia Southern was ranked behind the Div. 2 National Champion NDSU. That actually happened quite often in the 80's. The 1986 Team was off the charts superior to Div 1AA teams their year.

When Div. 2 started cutting scholarships was when the gap started to increase. However remember the 2003 Bison (Div2) took care of highly ranked Montana.
NDSU didn't belong in DII back then, just like NDSU doesn't belong in FCS now.

[cx500d]

That's funny, I know people (me included) who thought Troy was in Ohio. Aren't they FBS?

Really? We played Troy for a dii natty in the 80's. The beat us on a last second 50+yd field goal.


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[HerdBot]

The 1990 Team ended up being ranked 38th in all of college football according to Massey Rankings. Iowa that year was 21st. Also of Note, the Div 1AA National Champion Georgia Southern was ranked behind the Div. 2 National Champion NDSU. That actually happened quite often in the 80's. The 1986 Team was off the charts superior to Div 1AA teams their year.

When Div. 2 started cutting scholarships was when the gap started to increase. However remember the 2003 Bison (Div2) took care of highly ranked Montana.

Back then our starters were as good or better than most of the D1AA teams. (or at least relative to the systems we ran) The big drop is in mid to late season lack of depth caused from injuries. The backups on an FCS team are almost as good as the starters due to more than double the scholarships. The D2 backups are walk-ons and not always good ones either. That's why you see upsets on every level early in the season but not late. But the D2 upsets are typically bigger than FCS wins over FBS that happen pretty regularly

We were so good this year we almost made it back to Frisco losing DeLuca and Tanguay. Problem is when we lost Streidl it was pretty much all 2nd team at D Tackle vs JMU and they attacked the middle. Wasn't lack of talent though.. Probably lack of reps and experience

[tony]

The 1990 Team ended up being ranked 38th in all of college football according to Massey Rankings. Iowa that year was 21st. Also of Note, the Div 1AA National Champion Georgia Southern was ranked behind the Div. 2 National Champion NDSU. That actually happened quite often in the 80's. The 1986 Team was off the charts superior to Div 1AA teams their year.

When Div. 2 started cutting scholarships was when the gap started to increase. However remember the 2003 Bison (Div2) took care of highly ranked Montana.


The flaw in your argument is that this year Massey has Northwest Missouri State as #19 in all college football with the #168 toughest schedule. For reference, NDSU is at #45 and #100 respectively. I still remember UND fans using Massey to say how much better their D2 teams were than our transitional FCS teams. I take Massey's ratings of D2 teams vs DI teams with a grain of salt because there is no D2 v G5 or P5 (and precious few D2 v FCS games either.) That said, I'd expect that NWMSU would give NDSU all it could handle this year.

[Bisonguy]

The flaw in your argument is that this year Massey has Northwest Missouri State as #19 in all college football with the #168 toughest schedule. For reference, NDSU is at #45 and #100 respectively. I still remember UND fans using Massey to say how much better their D2 teams were than our transitional FCS teams. I take Massey's ratings of D2 teams vs DI teams with a grain of salt because there is no D2 v G5 or P5 (and precious few D2 v FCS games either.) That said, I'd expect that NWMSU would give NDSU all it could handle this year.

I've had discussions with Kenneth Massey regarding his ratings, and he's stated that they are not accurate when comparing divisions. He said FCS schools are about 10 spots too high in his opinion and D2 schools were closer to 20 spots.

Fun fact: He's an assistant math professor at Carson Newman, Bison opponent back in 2004.


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