Wichita State to the American Athletic Conference?

[NDSUstudent]

Rumors starting to circulate that WSU is getting looked at to join the American Athletic Conference....



Jon Rothstein ‏@JonRothstein 6h6 hours ago
Sources: Wichita State emerges as potential basketball-only member for American Conference. STORY (http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/sources-wichita-state-emerges-potential-basketball-addition-aac/)

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/809537467615428608

[tjbison]

Does this mean it's NDSU to the valley, UND to Summit as replacement


Serious but not serious

[DePereBisonFan]

I assumed for their up and coming *football* program. Is AAC really a step up from the MVC?

[unbison]

I assumed for their up and coming *football* program. Is AAC really a step up from the MVC?

It's a step up in basketball as well! I have to assume you were joking as u conn Cincinnati Memphis and umm others are in this conference

[ByeSonBusiness]

I assumed for their up and coming *football* program. Is AAC really a step up from the MVC?

UCONN, Memphis*, Cincinnati, Temple, etc.

Pretty solid for basketball I imagine.

*they good anymore?


It's a step up in basketball as well!

[Bison bison]

The MVC would only want us when we no longer want them. Lose of Creighton, loss of WSU,...

Would be fun to be in 'the' mid-major conference. But the MVC is for the most part a bus conference, and has a lot of vocal private members.

[taper]

The Summit is a better basketball league than the MVC without Wichita. That might even break them.

[HerdBot]

The Summit is a better basketball league than the MVC without Wichita. That might even break them.

I don't think so but it's closer. But in terms of regular season attendance and exposure, the MVC is way better

[Mr Meaty]

I don't think so but it's closer. But in terms of regular season attendance and exposure, the MVC is way better

It has been and might be for a couple more years, but with losing the really good teams from there attendance and exposure will start to drop.

[HerdBot]

It has been and might be for a couple more years, but with losing the really good teams from there attendance and exposure will start to drop.

I don't know. Our record vs MVC teams kind of sucks and Misery State curb stomped is. UNI curb stomped SDSU by 30 and we're both top Summit teams. I think were a middle of the pack MVC team and would take time to build to the level of the MVC... Kind of like it did in football

[NDSUstudent]

MVC schools put a lot more into hoops as whole than the Summit, MBB is their marquee sport. Wichita does basically operate at a high major level from a budgetary standpoint so obviously it is a big loss but that conference has depth.

[NDSUstudent]

Sounding more and more like WSU is gone.

[Bison bison]

Can't blame 'em. Got totally hosed with seeding due in part to playing in the Valley.

[El_Chapo]

NDSU to the MVC... its the ONLY thing that would salvage the ndsu athletics department for me if we 99.9% wont go FBS .

[HerdBot]

Keith Brake had an awesome segment on this yesterday. Thinks they are better off adding the football schools and hoping one of them becomes a powerhouse vs adding a team like Valpo

[EndZoneQB]

Paint with me a picture, if you will, of UND joining the Summit as NDSU rides off into the sunset of the MVC.

Won't happen, but talk about day late and a dollar short.

[Bison bison]

The MVC has become a giant pile of sh#t.

Would be happy to be affiliated with UNI, MoState, ISUb, ISUr; zero interest in the private schools.

The public MVC schools can join the Summit.

[ByeSonBusiness]

The MVC has become a giant pile of sh#t.

Would be happy to be affiliated with UNI, MoState, ISUb, ISUr; zero interest in the private schools.

The public MVC schools can join the Summit.

Any reason in particular you don't want to be around the private schools?

[Bison bison]

Because they are small time penny pinchers.

They have brought the MVC to its knees and will kill it. No reason for NDSU to be there when it happens.

[ByeSonBusiness]

Because they are small time penny pinchers.

They have brought the MVC to its knees and will kill it. No reason for NDSU to be there when it happens.

Ah, right on. Was unfamiliar with that. Makes sense

[NDSUstudent]

If the league added NDSU and SDSU I would be all for it but I doubt the private schools would let that happen. Seems like the league is stuck on replacing one private with a private or one public with a public, no rocking the boat at all.

A decade ago the MVC could have really leveraged its brand and success but they didn't and are now paying for it.

[ndsubison1]

If the league added NDSU and SDSU I would be all for it but I doubt the private schools would let that happen. Seems like the league is stuck on replacing one private with a private or one public with a public, no rocking the boat at all.

A decade ago the MVC could have really leveraged its brand and success but they didn't and are now paying for it.

Belmont should have decent shot.

[AKBison]

The MVC has become a giant pile of sh#t.

Would be happy to be affiliated with UNI, MoState, ISUb, ISUr; zero interest in the private schools.

The public MVC schools can join the Summit.

I would love to have Drake added to the above.

[HerdBot]

Paint with me a picture, if you will, of UND joining the Summit as NDSU rides off into the sunset of the MVC.

Won't happen, but talk about day late and a dollar short.

I think they should let every football team into the conference. NDSU, SDSU, USD, UND, Western Illinois
At least 3 of those teams are very committed to mens basketball and bring a lot to the table including new facilities, great rivals, solid attendance, and some great programs in all the sports. Really good womens basketball teams (USD won the WINIT), built in attendance draws with rivals, travel partners, great softball and track & field. Western Illinois is total garbage though and UND needs to improve their basketball facilities


If the league added NDSU and SDSU I would be all for it but I doubt the private schools would let that happen. Seems like the league is stuck on replacing one private with a private or one public with a public, no rocking the boat at all.

A decade ago the MVC could have really leveraged its brand and success but they didn't and are now paying for it.

Not sure why they are scared. The public teams are having huge budget issues. That includes UNI, Misery State, Illinois State, etc.. The Summit Teams have a better chance of blossoming into a great team than say.. Valpo.

[DePereBisonFan]

Sounding more and more like WSU is gone.

link? 10 char

[tjbison]

If the league added NDSU and SDSU I would be all for it but I doubt the private schools would let that happen. Seems like the league is stuck on replacing one private with a private or one public with a public, no rocking the boat at all.

A decade ago the MVC could have really leveraged its brand and success but they didn't and are now paying for it.

Adding loyola was the dumbest thing they could have done

[HerdBot]

Adding loyola was the dumbest thing they could have done

Yeah it was. Apparently the private schools like to bleep each others bleeps. They add nothing to the conference except a team that will never be pouched by a power 5 school because nobody wants them. Now... the top 2 schools in the conference will be... drum roll... public schools!

The odds of one of the Dakota Schools taking their program to the next level is a hundred times greater than Loyola

[tjbison]

Btw, in my basketball survey I stated they need to push for better competition and shoot for a higher conference preferably the MVC as then basketball would play the same schools as football and spark more cross sport fan interest. Bet I wasn't the only one

[Bisonator98]

I wouldn't want anything to do with the MVC and those privates. The Summit will be passing the MVC in the not so distant future. Without Wichita State, UNI and ISUr that conference is garbage.

[ByeSonBusiness]

I wouldn't want anything to do with the MVC and those privates. The Summit will be passing the MVC in the not so distant future. Without Wichita State, UNI and ISUr that conference is garbage.

UNI and ISU leaving anytime soon?

[DePereBisonFan]

UNI and ISU leaving anytime soon?

To the Summit? Lol...

[ndsubison1]

I wouldn't want anything to do with the MVC and those privates. The Summit will be passing the MVC in the not so distant future. Without Wichita State, UNI and ISUr that conference is garbage.

Without Wichita the Mvc is still better than the Summit.

[El_Chapo]

NDSU absolutely should jump on the MVC bandwagon.... if the football program is afraid to pursue FBS, then getting the Basketball team to the higher levels better dam well be Objective #1 for NDSU.

[NDSUstudent]

link? 10 char

https://twitter.com/SIPeteThamel/status/842748798535438337
https://twitter.com/ChrisSchutte3/status/843576361159741443
https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/843582271949029377

[HerdBot]

Without Wichita the Mvc is still better than the Summit.

Absolutely but the gap is closing by subtraction and it will get worse if they replace Wichita with a chump like Valpo. Of course if NDSU or SDSU would go to the MVC, it wouldn't even be close. All the Dakota schools are on the rise putting money into facilities and the programs. All 4 teams are pretty good

[Bisonator98]

If Wichita State leaves you can bet UNI and ISUr will be exploring their options. There's a reason the best programs want out of that conference.

[tjbison]

I wouldn't want anything to do with the MVC and those privates. The Summit will be passing the MVC in the not so distant future. Without Wichita State, UNI and ISUr that conference is garbage.

lol...ok, If i hear NDSU turns down an MVC invite my support stops, they would be totally insane to do so

[tjbison]

If Wichita State leaves you can bet UNI and ISUr will be exploring their options. There's a reason the best programs want out of that conference.

Exactly why I see the FB schools pushing hard for FB school additions

[tjbison]

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article139945788.html

[HerdBot]

lol...ok, If i hear NDSU turns down an MVC invite my support stops, they would be totally insane to do so

I wouldn't stop by support but I would certainly be pissed and my daily talking point would be finding a new athletic directer


Exactly why I see the FB schools pushing hard for FB school additions

Yeah it's a heck of a lot easier for a non football team to move.

[silkamilkamonico]

lol the Summit won't be better than MVC in our lifetime. SDSU may get a good look for them if they can dump more resources.

SDSU and Oakland are getting some mention as possible replacements, but wouldn't think it's that serious.

[silkamilkamonico]

lol...ok, If i hear NDSU turns down an MVC invite my support stops, they would be totally insane to do so

If NDSU ever turned down an offer from the MVC, I would seriously question the direction of the athletic department. Staying in FCS is directionless enough.

[Bisonator98]

What makes the MVC such a great conference? Why did Creighton leave?? Why is Wichita wanting to leave???

[ByeSonBusiness]

What makes the MVC such a great conference? Why did Creighton leave?? Why is Wichita wanting to leave???

They invest pretty heavily into men's basketball I think. Very good attendance/support as well.

[NDSUstudent]

What makes the MVC such a great conference? Why did Creighton leave?? Why is Wichita wanting to leave???

Simple answer, both outgrew the MVC. They are both pretty much high major programs, especially WSU. Creighton got a shot at the private school dream conference, of course they were going to take it.

As for the rest of the league, all the schools invest heavily in hoops. Yes, even the penny pinching privates but just not on the level of WSU or Creighton. MVC also gets decent exposure with some games on ESPN and the title game is on CBS.

Even without WSU, the MVC is a clear step up from the Summit.

[silkamilkamonico]

What makes the MVC such a great conference? Why did Creighton leave?? Why is Wichita wanting to leave???

It isn't a great conference. It is a much better conference than the Summit and there isn't really a comparison point. They are leaving for better conferences. The Summit has teams leaving for lateral conferences, which aren't anywhere near the MVC.

[Bison bison]

Need to think about what will be, not was, or even is.

Today the MVC is a one bid league. Take away Wichita and that may be solidified.

Their RPI was .50 this year. Take away WSU it's .492. The Summits was .485.

No possible additions are going to guarantee the MVC becomes a two-bid league. PERIOD.

The MVC has an awesome history. Arch Madness is great.

Hard to believe, but the Summit's future may be as bright. It also includes more institutional peers and geographic coherence.

Deal with it.

[NDSUstudent]

Take NDSU and SDSU out of the Summit and put them into the MVC and you don't have a competition now or going forward.

Even without WSU, MVC schools spend much more on hoops across the board. If they make the right move in replacing them, they could continue to be a league with multi-bid potential.

[Bison bison]

multi-bid potential. right.

They had two very good teams this year - WSU and ISUr.

ISUr didn't make tournament because of the league's quality. Losing WSU will make it worse. Adding XDSU/etc is not going to make the MVC anywhere near good enough for the next tier of teams: UNI, SIU, Loyola, Evansville, XDSU to receive an at large bid.

What the Summit has is teams that are similar and busting a$$ to get better.

What the MVC has is a political mess with public/private schools. Yeah. Arch Madness. Are one hundred fans going to travel to St. Louis?

[Bisonator98]

Need to think about what will be, not was, or even is.

Today the MVC is a one bid league. Take away Wichita and that may be solidified.

Their RPI was .50 this year. Take away WSU it's .492. The Summits was .485.

No possible additions are going to guarantee the MVC becomes a two-bid league. PERIOD.

The MVC has an awesome history. Arch Madness is great.

Hard to believe, but the Summit's future may be as bright. It also includes more institutional peers and geographic coherence.

Deal with it.

This^^^^

This isn't your daddy's MVC or Summit. They are trending in opposite directions.

[HerdBot]

Take NDSU and SDSU out of the Summit and put them into the MVC and you don't have a competition now or going forward.

Even without WSU, MVC schools spend much more on hoops across the board. If they make the right move in replacing them, they could continue to be a league with multi-bid potential.

Totally agree. They spend way more than our conference does and they also have the ability to poach USD's head coach. As far as attendance goes... the MVC out draws the Summit even if you remove Wichita out the the equation. Teams like NDSU, USD, and SDSU would actually do quite well for the conference and are trending upwards in name recognition, rivalries, attendance, and facilities.... except the Western Illinois of the world would really bring down the numbers. The MVC has much greater TV exposure too which helps with attendance and recruiting

[NDSUstudent]

ISUR didn't make the dance for multiple reasons, part of that has to do with the quality of the league and the other part is the quality of their non league schedule. If they had a few more quality wins in non-conference, they are probably dancing but having just one top 100 win out of conference probably isn't going to cut it.

I don't think Summit teams are busting their ass any more or less then MVC teams. Basketball is the marquee sport for every single MVC team, every team in that league wants to compete at a high level in that sport.

The MVC is a political mess, I can agree with that but maybe they can pull their head out of their ass but like I've said before I have my doubts.

As for the Summit, I don't think it has that much potential. The league is pretty much what it is always going to be. Too many schools with differing priorities and some with massive limitations.

[Bison bison]

And my math didn't adjust all the MVC teams not named Wichita State for not playing the Shockers.


In 15/16 the Summit had a better RPI than the Valley.



A couple of other points not brought up. Right now the Valley has six public schools and four private ones. That would change to 5/4 if the Shockers leave. Do you really think the private school members are going let three more public schools join?


Moving to the MVC is all about brand/image (which is valuable), but we are talking about the future. The Valley is seen by basketball fans as a mid-major, the Summit as low-major if thought about at all. I really don't give sh#t --perceptions change, it may take time, but reality sometimes burns through the densest ignorance.

[silkamilkamonico]

Future - what's best for NDSU? Staying in the Summit which will always be a 1 bid league? Or moving to the MVC, which was a bid league this year, and multi bid league other years?

I wish I had time to down the NCAA March tournament wins/success which directly contributes to more money for that particular conference, and all the conference members.

This isn't an RPI comparison, this is a money, contribution, recruiting, national success comparison, and there is no comparison between the 2 conferences. Teams in the MVC that are leaving, like Creighton, Wichita St, etc, are leaving for more prestigious conferences.

The Summit has teams leaving for Big sky, WAC, Southland, and Horizon conferences, which are all inferior (and some inferior to the Summit).

This is like saying NDSU football needs to stay in the MVC conference because it could be more prestigious than the Mountain west conference.

[silkamilkamonico]

This^^^^

This isn't your daddy's MVC or Summit. They are trending in opposite directions.

They really aren't though. Until the Summit can even have teams n the bubble, it's not really even a comparison between the 2 conferences.

The Craig Smith situation is exactly why the MVC is going to always have better coaches, for one. Teams in the Summit aren't going to be able to pay the coaches well enough to stick around and build programs that can compete for the bubble.

[HerdBot]

Future - what's best for NDSU? Staying in the Summit which will always be a 1 bid league? Or moving to the MVC, which was a bid league this year, and multi bid league other years?

I wish I had time to down the NCAA March tournament wins/success which directly contributes to more money for that particular conference, and all the conference members.

This isn't an RPI comparison, this is a money, contribution, recruiting, national success comparison, and there is no comparison between the 2 conferences. Teams in the MVC that are leaving, like Creighton, Wichita St, etc, are leaving for more prestigious conferences.

The Summit has teams leaving for Big sky, WAC, Southland, and Horizon conferences, which are all inferior (and some inferior to the Summit).

This is like saying NDSU football needs to stay in the MVC conference because it could be more prestigious than the Mountain west conference.

Totally agree. There is zero comparison. It's like comparing the Missouri Valley Football Conference to the Southland.

[tjbison]

Every school in the Summit is looking for a way out..period

If NDSU would turn down a MVC invite we may as well go back to DII

[Bisonator98]

They really aren't though. Until the Summit can even have teams n the bubble, it's not really even a comparison between the 2 conferences.

The Craig Smith situation is exactly why the MVC is going to always have better coaches, for one. Teams in the Summit aren't going to be able to pay the coaches well enough to stick around and build programs that can compete for the bubble.

Apparently everything stays the same and nothing changes in your world? I suppose you also never thought NDSU should go D1 or win a game in the big dance? Is there a rule somewhere that the Summit schools can't spend money and improve their scheduling?

[NDSUstudent]

I don't really get why people think the Summit has all this upward potential. I do agree the MVC is trending down but I can remember UNI making the sweet 16 and SIU making the sweet 16...these programs aren't exactly chopped liver. For the most part they've all done some things and made some noise.

Omaha, UND and UNO are hockey schools. They are all fine in hoops but they are always going to be putting more resources to a different sport that competes directly with hoops.

WIU, IPFW and IUPUI are what they are. Schools with limited budgets and not much support and honestly ORU is kind of trending in this direction sadly.

The Summit is the island of misfit toys, we make the best of it but I think people are getting a bit carried away.

I wish the MVFC could form into some kind of all-sports league but that is just a dream.

[Bison bison]

And yet UNO would have had the third highest RPI after WSU and ISUr this year.

And UND would have been fourth.

Damn hockey schools.



It's like a middle-aged man who yearns for his high school crush even though her tits are sagging and she's lost her two front teeth.

Love the one you're with, man. Love the one you're with.

[NDSUstudent]

And yet UNO would have had the third highest RPI after WSU and ISUr this year.

And UND would have been fourth.

Damn hockey schools.



It's like a middle-aged man who yearns for his high school crush even though her tits are sagging and she's lost her two front teeth.

Love the one you're with, man. Love the one you're with.

Yes, lets compare everything to just one year and base it all on RPI which is extremely flawed and losing favor with the selection committee.

Kenpom which is a superior metric has the best of the Summit in the middle of MVC pack, all light years away from ISUR.

UND's greatest basketball team in its DI history was pummeled by UNI, who wasn't even that great in the MVC. Pretty sure they did the same to SDSU as well and MSU kicked our ass.

Keep living in an alternate reality. To anyone that actually knows basketball, the Summit is not close to the MVC.

[Bison bison]

And the year before the Summit had a better RPI than the Valley.

Keep living in the past.

[NDSUstudent]

And the year before the Summit had a better RPI than the Valley.

Keep living in the past.

Keep basing everything off a flawed metric.

BTW in 2015-16 the MVC was a multi-bid league and the conference won multiple games in the big dance. Which league was better....shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

I can keep giving you dose after dose of reality if you like.

[silkamilkamonico]

Apparently everything stays the same and nothing changes in your world? I suppose you also never thought NDSU should go D1 or win a game in the big dance? Is there a rule somewhere that the Summit schools can't spend money and improve their scheduling?

Do you think that change will happen overnight? It took the MVC a good 20-25 years to get to the point of where it is today. It may or it may not take that long for the Summit if it even happens. It isn't going to happen in the next 5 years.

When you show me that the Summit is starting to spend money and improve scheduling, I will change my tune. Until then, Scott Nagy was by far the highest paid coach in the Summit at roughly $212k, and he left to go to some place called Wright State for a $500k, more than twice as much.

Craig smith is going to leave his cushy job at USD making as much as Dave Richman at NDSU for MVC bottom dweller Drake if it gets the opportunity, and will probably make twice as much money.

I will say this though. Maybe NDSU can start redirecting some of those football funds into the basketball program and we can start paying our coach half as much as the head coach at Wright State.

[Bison bison]

Keep basing everything off a flawed metric.

BTW in 2015-16 the MVC was a multi-bid league and the conference won multiple games in the big dance. Which league was better....shouldn't be too hard to figure out.


There is a difference between a better league and a league with the best teams.

Especially when those best teams are leaving...

[Bison bison]

It took the MVC a good 20-25 years to get to the point of where it is today.


Where is it today? Pissed off and trending downward.

[silkamilkamonico]

There is a difference between a better league and a league with the best teams.

Especially when those best teams are leaving...

You're argument of Summit being a better league than the MVC is 2 years of RPI work out of existence of the 2 conferences?

[silkamilkamonico]

Where is it today? Pissed off and trending downward.

And still able to pay it's coaches significantly more money than any school in the Summit.

[NDSUstudent]

There is a difference between a better league and a league with the best teams.

Especially when those best teams are leaving...

Where is UNI going? Where is ISUR going? Are MVC teams going to suddenly commit fewer resources to hoops when WSU leaves? Just look at Drake, an MVC doormat can poach the Summit coach that just won the league title if it wants.

BTW Sagarin and Kenpom paint different pictures. Both are vastly superior at evaluating teams and conferences.

[Bison bison]

And still able to pay it's coaches significantly more money than any school in the Summit.

What's your point? That the private schools are overpaying for losing programs? I agree.

[Bison bison]

BTW Sagarin and Kenpom paint different pictures. Both are vastly superior at evaluating teams and conferences.


Sure they are.

Kenpom has Wichita State as the number eight team in the country, yet they were seeded #10 (~#40). Another reason to get the hell out of the MVC.

[silkamilkamonico]

Where is it today? Pissed off and trending downward.

Here's an NCAA tournament between the 2. I'll exclude WSU since they are leaving.

Illinois State - 3 round of 32 appearances
Southern Illinois - 3 sweet 16 appearances, 1 round of 32 appearances
UNI - 1 sweet 16 appearance, 3 round of 32 appearances
Loyola - 1 Final 4 appearance, 2 sweet 16 appearances
Bradley - 2 final 4 appearances, 2 sweet 16 appearances
Missouri St - 1 sweet 16 appearance
Evansville - 1 round of 32 appearance
Drake - 1 Final Four, 2 elite 8's
Indiana St - 1 Final four, 1 round of 32

These don't include how often they made tournament and lost in first round

Summit Conference
South Dakota - no appearances
NDSU - 1 round of 32, 3 total tournament appearances
Omaha - no appearances
SDSU - 4 total appearances
IPFW - no tournament appearances
Denver - no tournament appearances
IUPUI - 1 tournament appearances
Western Illinois - no tournament appearances
Oral Roberts - 1 Elite Eight, 5 total appearances


Summit's a pretty nice smaller conference, but it has a long ways to go on so many levels to be anywhere close to the MVC.

[silkamilkamonico]

What's your point? That the private schools are overpaying for losing programs? I agree.

Yes, and that Summit can't afford anything better thwan what it is now. That's why the best coach in the Summit conference wants to go to bottom dwelling Drake of the MVC.

[HerdBot]

I don't really get why people think the Summit has all this upward potential. I do agree the MVC is trending down but I can remember UNI making the sweet 16 and SIU making the sweet 16...these programs aren't exactly chopped liver. For the most part they've all done some things and made some noise.

Omaha, UND and UNO are hockey schools. They are all fine in hoops but they are always going to be putting more resources to a different sport that competes directly with hoops.

WIU, IPFW and IUPUI are what they are. Schools with limited budgets and not much support and honestly ORU is kind of trending in this direction sadly.

The Summit is the island of misfit toys, we make the best of it but I think people are getting a bit carried away.

I wish the MVFC could form into some kind of all-sports league but that is just a dream.


And yet UNO would have had the third highest RPI after WSU and ISUr this year.

And UND would have been fourth.

Damn hockey schools.



It's like a middle-aged man who yearns for his high school crush even though her tits are sagging and she's lost her two front teeth.

Love the one you're with, man. Love the one you're with.


This year the MVC has an RPI of 12 and the Summitt has an RPI of 18 in a year when UNI was below 500. Of course if you take the top Summit teams away it's not even close. Getting all the football schools together in the same conference would be a huge deal for everything. Heck we could even have a conference Championship game on a weekend.

If the old high school crush is ugly than our current girl is a guy in a dress with a wig and a dick.

[tjbison]

I bet if we were in the Summit our MBB attendance would be higher

I know for a fact I would much rather watch UNI than WIU or Ooypooy

[silkamilkamonico]

I bet if we were in the Summit our MBB attendance would be higher

I know for a fact I would much rather watch UNI than WIU or Ooypooy

WSU should have a preseason top 10 team coming back. Could you imagine seeing that matchup in Fargo? Place may even sell out.

[Bison bison]

This year the MVC has an RPI of 12 and the Summitt has an RPI of 18 in a year when UNI was below 500. Of course if you take the top Summit teams away it's not even close.

If you take out one team MVC team (ya know the one that is planning on leaving), they are the same. You take out the top two teams (that both got shafted by being in the MVC), the Summit is better. You take out the top four MVC teams (that are wondering if the conference has a future for them) and it's not even close.

[HerdBot]

If you take out one team MVC team (ya know the one that is planning on leaving), they are the same. You take out the top two teams (that both got shafted by being in the MVC), the Summit is better. You take out the top four MVC teams (that are wondering if the conference has a future for them) and it's not even close.

Trying to come up with an analogy for what you just said... I'll try football because it sounds funnier

If you take out Ohio State, Michigan State, and Michigan out of the Big Ten East... it's better than the Big Ten West. If you take out Ohio State, Michigan State, Michigan, AND Penn State out of the Big Ten East... it's not even close. The West is way better.

[Bison bison]

Here's an NCAA tournament between the 2. I'll exclude WSU since they are leaving.

Illinois State - 3 round of 32 appearances
Southern Illinois - 3 sweet 16 appearances, 1 round of 32 appearances
UNI - 1 sweet 16 appearance, 3 round of 32 appearances
Loyola - 1 Final 4 appearance, 2 sweet 16 appearances
Bradley - 2 final 4 appearances, 2 sweet 16 appearances
Missouri St - 1 sweet 16 appearance
Evansville - 1 round of 32 appearance
Drake - 1 Final Four, 2 elite 8's
Indiana St - 1 Final four, 1 round of 32


It is 2017.

Loyola was in the Final Four in 1963. It joined the MVC in the last five years.

That carries exactly zero water today as do some of your other examples.

The MVC has been getting weaker for a decade and I don't need to wear sunglasses when looking into its future.

[ByeSonBusiness]

It is 2017.

Loyola was in the Final Four in 1963. It joined the MVC in the last five years.

That carries exactly zero water today as do some of your other examples.

The MVC has been getting weaker for a decade and I don't need to wear sunglasses when looking into its future.

Pretty sure every Summit school would give their left nut and first born son to get into that weak-ass MVC.

[NDSUstudent]

It is wrong to act like the MVC is this league where WSU is this constant dominate force. I remember when SIU was the king of that league and one of ESPN's mid-major darlings while WSU was a middling program. Then WSU made a few right coaching hires, pumped money into its program and the rest is history.

The conditions are there for every team in that league to be good. They all support their programs at a high level, have nice facilities and are close to solid recruiting grounds. Meanwhile the Summit just added a school that pays its head coach what most MVC programs pay their assistants.

[silkamilkamonico]

It is 2017.

Loyola was in the Final Four in 1963. It joined the MVC in the last five years.

That carries exactly zero water today as do some of your other examples.

The MVC has been getting weaker for a decade and I don't need to wear sunglasses when looking into its future.

The problem with your argument isn't the downfall of the MVC, it's somehow putting the Summit on some higher ground because of 1 year and omitting a couple teams in the MVC. The 2017 example is like saying NDSU is no longer the premier football program in FCS, it's James Madison and their 1 National championship and 2 conference championships in the history of its program.

[bruinbison]

Hope this hasn't been posted elsewhere - Matt Zimmer's opinion (SDSU beat writer for Argus Leader)
on SDSU - NDSU to Missouri Valley - if Wichita State leaves MVC



Matt Zimmer‏ @argusmattz
I have no inside info but my hunch is Craig Smith was never going to Drake.



[Mike Imrie‏ @mjimrie
@argusmattz leverage! Drake hard to win at. Good squad coming back at usd. ?
If Wichita leaves valley..sdsu and ndsu to valley?]


in reply to @mjimrie

Matt Zimmer‏ @argusmattz

@mjimrie SDSU would never give up the Summit League tournament to go to a Wichita-less Valley.
9:15 PM · Mar 22, 2017



St Louis & Arch Madness MVC Conference Tourney versus home-court advantage in Sioux Falls with the Summit......

[El_Chapo]

Here's an NCAA tournament between the 2. I'll exclude WSU since they are leaving.

Illinois State - 3 round of 32 appearances
Southern Illinois - 3 sweet 16 appearances, 1 round of 32 appearances
UNI - 1 sweet 16 appearance, 3 round of 32 appearances
Loyola - 1 Final 4 appearance, 2 sweet 16 appearances
Bradley - 2 final 4 appearances, 2 sweet 16 appearances
Missouri St - 1 sweet 16 appearance
Evansville - 1 round of 32 appearance
Drake - 1 Final Four, 2 elite 8's
Indiana St - 1 Final four, 1 round of 32

These don't include how often they made tournament and lost in first round

Summit Conference
South Dakota - no appearances
NDSU - 1 round of 32, 3 total tournament appearances
Omaha - no appearances
SDSU - 4 total appearances
IPFW - no tournament appearances
Denver - no tournament appearances
IUPUI - 1 tournament appearances
Western Illinois - no tournament appearances
Oral Roberts - 1 Elite Eight, 5 total appearances


Summit's a pretty nice smaller conference, but it has a long ways to go on so many levels to be anywhere close to the MVC.

and BOOM goes the dynamite. NDSU and its fanbase & athletic dept should be going hard after this.... (but like FBS pursuit, they arent doing SQUAT!)

[HerdBot]

Hope this hasn't been posted elsewhere - Matt Zimmer's opinion (SDSU beat writer for Argus Leader)
on SDSU - NDSU to Missouri Valley - if Wichita State leaves MVC



St Louis & Arch Madness MVC Conference Tourney versus home-court advantage in Sioux Falls with the Summit......


Even more reason for us to leave without them. They have the sweetest deal in the nation. Built in local home court on a weekday to keep out opposing fans. If it was at the dome every year on a Tuesday or whatever I wouldn't give it up either. But unfortunately we don't.

[Bison bison]

Smith is staying at USD.

Clearly he hasn't read this thread.

[silkamilkamonico]

Smith is staying at USD.

Clearly he hasn't read this thread.

Rumor is at north of $300k. NDSU athletic department clearly needs to get with the times.

[NDSUstudent]

Rumor is at north of $300k. NDSU starting to fall behind in basketball coaching salary's now too.

We are probably in 5th behind ORU, SDSU, USD and Denver. Likely much closer to the 6th highest paid coach.

That said I'm not sure Richman has done enough to warrant a massive raise.

[Bison bison]

That said I'm not sure Richman has done enough to warrant a massive raise.


this.


ndsu needs to do better than losing the first game of the conference tournament.

[NDSUstudent]

Hope this hasn't been posted elsewhere - Matt Zimmer's opinion (SDSU beat writer for Argus Leader)
on SDSU - NDSU to Missouri Valley - if Wichita State leaves MVC



St Louis & Arch Madness MVC Conference Tourney versus home-court advantage in Sioux Falls with the Summit......

Just look at how they perform in SF, I wouldn't give up home court forever either.

That said for us it is a giant nothing burger. Doubt I will go to SF again unless I either move to that area or they change the tournament dates.

[silkamilkamonico]

We are probably in 5th behind ORU, SDSU, USD and Denver. Likely much closer to the 6th highest paid coach.

That said I'm not sure Richman has done enough to warrant a massive raise.

6th highest paid coach in the conference and has had the 2nd most, arguably the most success. Then again NDSU couldn't afford to pay more. Can't even afford to keep our football coaches salary competitive.

[NDSUstudent]

6th highest paid coach in the conference and has had the 2nd most, arguably the most success. Then again NDSU couldn't afford to pay more. Can't even afford to keep our football coaches salary competitive.

Klieman is pretty much at the top of the FCS, so is his staff. They are in a pretty good place.

I think if Saul had stayed he would be in the $300k range by now, I think GT was ready to give him a nice raise. Dave got what Saul was making, which was more than fair for a coach that had zero HC experience. If he has another good year next year, he will probably get a bump.

[silkamilkamonico]

Kliemann is 3rd in the conference behind Northern Iowa and Illinois State, but those 2 schools have significant more money in all sports. But he is at least in the top 10 in base salary.

[NDSUstudent]

Kliemann is 3rd in the conference behind Northern Iowa and Illinois State, but those 2 schools have significant more money in all sports. But he is at least in the top 10 in base salary.

He makes the same as Spack base but I'm not if sure Spack's bonuses are nearly as generous.

[DIBISON]

Rumor is at north of $300k. NDSU athletic department clearly needs to get with the times.

Rumor is not accurate, it is south of $300,000, three year deal at $275,000 annually.

[Bison"FANatic"]

So do the Redbirds and Panthers stick around or use it as a time to try and jump to the MAC. It would get them to FBS and solidify them to a more stable conference and away from a conference in major flux on the non football side. The million or millions of dollar question is could they find the cash if the opportunity presented itself to them.

[Bison bison]

I don't think uni or issue have the bankroll to move to the Mac.

Although you can be sure that if another Loyola* is added theyll be working hard to get off the sinking ship.


Did you know that Loyola used to be really good and is in Chicago!

[HerdBot]

Kliemann is 3rd in the conference behind Northern Iowa and Illinois State, but those 2 schools have significant more money in all sports. But he is at least in the top 10 in base salary.

With incentives Klieman makes closer to a half million. (he gets like 90k just for media speaking) And it's in Kliemans contract that our assistant coaches must be paid in the top ten percent of the nation.

[HerdBot]

Kliemann is 3rd in the conference behind Northern Iowa and Illinois State, but those 2 schools have significant more money in all sports. But he is at least in the top 10 in base salary.

With incentives Klieman makes closer to a half million. (he gets like 90k just for media speaking) And it's in Kliemans contract that our assistant coaches must be paid in the top ten percent of the nation.

Guarantee Spack doesn't get almost a hundred grand for media speaking since he doesn't have an actual TV show on a major network or a weekly radio show on a top station in the state.

[Bison 4 Life]

I don't know if this is rumor or what but I remember the story at UNI being the coaching salaries are very top heavy. They pay Farley a ton and his assistants make crap.

[Bisonator98]

I don't know if this is rumor or what but I remember the story at UNI being the coaching salaries are very top heavy. They pay Farley a ton and his assistants make crap.

That's Farley being Farley.

[tjbison]

That's Farley being Farley.

hence why we stole some underpaid from him

[silkamilkamonico]

Rumor is not accurate, it is south of $300,000, three year deal at $275,000 annually.

Big statement. I believe Richman is like $190k. Nagy was at $212,000 his last year at SDSU. Like what was said in the other thread, get on board with basketball Summit programs.

[HerdBot]

Big statement. I believe Richman is like $190k. Nagy was at $212,000 his last year at SDSU. Like what was said in the other thread, get on board with basketball Summit programs.

We definitely need to increase coaching salaries across the board. I think basketball salaries are more of a pressing need than football right now but eventually would like to see football pay closer to a million. At UNI.. Ben jacobson almost gets a million per year and most is from private donors

[silkamilkamonico]

MAC basketball conference blows dog. Big black lab.

[silkamilkamonico]

We definitely need to increase coaching salaries across the board. I think basketball salaries are more of a pressing need than football right now but eventually would like to see football pay closer to a million. At UNI.. Ben jacobson almost gets a million per year and most is from private donors

Can NDSU increase salary's significantly? They have come a long way in a short amount of time and just wonder how quickly they can keep significantly increasing.

[silkamilkamonico]

With incentives Klieman makes closer to a half million. (he gets like 90k just for media speaking) And it's in Kliemans contract that our assistant coaches must be paid in the top ten percent of the nation.

Guarantee Spack doesn't get almost a hundred grand for media speaking since he doesn't have an actual TV show on a major network or a weekly radio show on a top station in the state.

I got from this article that is obviously outdated

http://www.aseaofred.com/scanning-fcs-coaches-salaries/
https://siouxfb.areavoices.com/2016/12/13/the-fcs-coaching-salary-market/

lol at Liberty and Turner Gill. He must have maid $100k for every win last year.

[HerdBot]

Can NDSU increase salary's significantly? They have come a long way in a short amount of time and just wonder how quickly they can keep significantly increasing.

They would never ask with the budget situation but Teammakers will some day need to fund this like they did at UNI. Ben Jacobson has a pretty average salary but I think donors pay like 700k of his salary

[Mr Meaty]

They would never ask with the budget situation but Teammakers will some day need to fund this like they did at UNI. Ben Jacobson has a pretty average salary but I think donors pay like 700k of his salary

Your probably right on TM needing to do it.

[EC8CH]

Big statement. I believe Richman is like $190k. Nagy was at $212,000 his last year at SDSU. Like what was said in the other thread, get on board with basketball Summit programs.

Amazing USD can afford that. Home games of theirs I watched the attendance was horrible and football definitely isn't paying their bills. A shame too because their new arena looks like a pretty sweet place to watch a game.

[HerdBot]

I got from this article that is obviously outdated

http://www.aseaofred.com/scanning-fcs-coaches-salaries/
https://siouxfb.areavoices.com/2016/12/13/the-fcs-coaching-salary-market/

lol at Liberty and Turner Gill. He must have maid $100k for every win last year.

Klieman gets a bare minimum of 4% raise each year. This year he will be at the very least 312k. Then 324k. Then 338k.

His media speaking fees are 25k +70k with a 5k raise annually (95k 2017, 100k 2018, 105k 2019)

He gets bare minimum 5k for summer camps.

He gets up to 50k in incentives. (10k for 8 wins, 10k for a MVFC Championship, and 5k for home playoff games, 10-15k for Frisco)

Plus he gets a longevity bonus of 50k if he's still here after the 2018 season.

Not counting free college for his kids, he could almost make over 550k in 2019. Heck he could go 3-8 and make 500k that year.

Our head coach makes good money. I would rather up the assistant football coaches salaries and basketball across the board.

[Professorbum]

We are probably in 5th behind ORU, SDSU, USD and Denver. Likely much closer to the 6th highest paid coach.

That said I'm not sure Richman has done enough to warrant a massive raise.

I'm sure he hasn't.

[silkamilkamonico]

Interesting.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

SDSU hired their HC at $300,00k. Impressive how both South Dakota schools are lit up on hoops. Will be interesting to see Brian Jones next contract now that UND cut women's hockey and both swimming programs.

[tjbison]

Interesting.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/

SDSU hired their HC at $300,00k. Impressive how both South Dakota schools are lit up on hoops. Will be interesting to see Brian Jones next contract now that UND cut women's hockey and both swimming programs.

Dave needs to prove himself before he gets a big raise, Saul would have probably been right up there had he stayed and had sustained success

[silkamilkamonico]

Dave needs to prove himself before he gets a big raise, Saul would have probably been right up there had he stayed and had sustained success

1) No he wouldn't. Not even close. Saul was making $175,000 here and left for $550,000 a year at Ohio.
2) I think the bigger question is how does SDSU afford to pay a coach with zero experience that salary right off the bat?

I don't agree with the "earned" statement people keep throwing around doesn't make any sense to me. He's getting paid significant less than other Summit coaches with significantly more results. With that being said we should be super happy with Richman and never complain because we're likely getting what we're paying for and then some. He's either overachieving, or NDSU just doesn't take basketball as serious as these other schools, which I guess is ok.

[HerdBot]

1) No he wouldn't. Not even close. Saul was making $175,000 here and left for $550,000 a year at Ohio.
2) I think the bigger question is how does SDSU afford to pay a coach with zero experience that salary right off the bat?

I don't agree with the "earned" statement people keep throwing around doesn't make any sense to me. He's getting paid significant less than other Summit coaches with significantly more results. With that being said we should be super happy with Richman and never complain because we're likely getting what we're paying for and then some. He's either overachieving, or NDSU just doesn't take basketball as serious as these other schools, which I guess is ok.

I agree. At the very least when and if we hire a new head coach, we need to be prepared to pay up to 300k because that's what committed teams pay. Otherwise we will be a revolving door of coaches who get poached everytime we do something good.

[Bison bison]

NDSU is not the New York Yankees.

We will always see good coaches leave.

What we should want is for Fargo to be a place where good coaches see a chance to prove themselves and grow.

Nothing personal, I want nearly all of our coaches out of here in the next five years, moving on to even better things (or at least more money).

[HerdBot]

NDSU is not the New York Yankees.

We will always see good coaches leave.

What we should want is for Fargo to be a place where good coaches see a chance to prove themselves and grow.

Nothing personal, I want nearly all of our coaches out of here in the next five years, moving on to even better things (or at least more money).

Yes because we pay like the Florida Marlins. But I will just say this. We paid Bohl pretty well and we held on to him for a decade. We pay Klieman even better and he's going on his 4th year.

Back in the old days of D2 when we paid like a D2 program we used to lose our head coaches to D1AA teams. Now we hire coordinators and position coaches away from teams like Montana State who once hired our head coach. Same with UNI

[wow]

1) No he wouldn't. Not even close. Saul was making $175,000 here and left for $550,000 a year at Ohio.
2) I think the bigger question is how does SDSU afford to pay a coach with zero experience that salary right off the bat?

I don't agree with the "earned" statement people keep throwing around doesn't make any sense to me. He's getting paid significant less than other Summit coaches with significantly more results. With that being said we should be super happy with Richman and never complain because we're likely getting what we're paying for and then some. He's either overachieving, or NDSU just doesn't take basketball as serious as these other schools, which I guess is ok.

Why is that the bigger question? Saying TJ had zero experience is pretty bold.

[silkamilkamonico]

Why is that the bigger question? Saying TJ had zero experience is pretty bold.

Oh really? Where did he head coach before? I am looking on his profile and he was an assistant a bunch of places but that don't mean anything. Looks like he might have been a high school head coach way back in 2001-2004 but we aren't really going to try and count are we?

[HerdBot]

The Brakedown has a nice bit on Wichita, The Summit, and the MVC conference today. Pretty good listen.
https://soundcloud.com/user-744211984/the-brakedown-thursday-march-30th-full-show

[silkamilkamonico]

Am kind of behind the times with day to day things going on, but why does NDSU have to cut budgets in the Athletic Department?

[Bison bison]

The university is facing a reduction of as much as 20% in state operating support. Everyone is getting a haircut!

[HerdBot]

Am kind of behind the times with day to day things going on, but why does NDSU have to cut budgets in the Athletic Department?

They just make cuts across the board. Fortunately we use a much smaller percentage of state funds to run our athletic department so our cuts are smaller.

[El_Chapo]

here we GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Wichita is leaving.

if NDSU admin refuses to pursue the FBS.. they better dam well be begging the MVC for entry. Screw SDSU.

Time for NDSU to step up, Ill take St Louis & Arch Madness Thurs/Fri/Sat over Mon/Tues Sioux Falls.

[wow]

Oh really? Where did he head coach before? I am looking on his profile and he was an assistant a bunch of places but that don't mean anything. Looks like he might have been a high school head coach way back in 2001-2004 but we aren't really going to try and count are we?

LOL, yes "a bunch of places." What places?

TJ made $285,000 at the last place he was an assistant.

$300,000 seems like a bargain for a coach with his background, TBH.

[THEsocalledfan]

Have to admit, I had not considered the serous blow this would be to MVC and how that may be good for the Summit. Can the Summit get good enough to ever be a two bid league? That should be the goal.

[tjbison]

Have to admit, I had not considered the serous blow this would be to MVC and how that may be good for the Summit. Can the Summit get good enough to ever be a two bid league? That should be the goal.

No, if the MVC can't get 2 no way in hell the Summit can

MVC is still way more respected and stronger than the Summit even without WSU

[silkamilkamonico]

LOL, yes "a bunch of places." What places?

TJ made $285,000 at the last place he was an assistant.

$300,000 seems like a bargain for a coach with his background, TBH.

He was an assistant at 3 other places in like 12 years, jumping around. I'm glad you agree that he has zero head coaching experience at the collegiate level. And what he made as an assistant at other schools really has no bearing on my comment you were responding too. None whatsoever.

[silkamilkamonico]

LOL, yes "a bunch of places." What places?

TJ made $285,000 at the last place he was an assistant.

$300,000 seems like a bargain for a coach with his background, TBH.

He was an assistant at 3 other places in like 12 years, jumping around. I'm glad you agree that he has zero head coaching experience at the collegiate level.

[THEsocalledfan]

No, if the MVC can't get 2 no way in hell the Summit can

MVC is still way more respected and stronger than the Summit even without WSU

But my understanding is they have. (Can't find the data.) I just wonder if we are not thinking big enough in the Summit. You have 4 core state funded schools at this point all with great facilities. Is there is enough talent that can be recruited to the tundra to pull up the quality of play? Wichita is going to really hurt MVC if they leave.......

I am not saying this would happen over night, but 10 years? 20 years?

[wow]

He was an assistant at 3 other places in like 12 years, jumping around. I'm glad you agree that he has zero head coaching experience at the collegiate level.

It is a fact, it would be idiotic to disagree on his head coaching experience.

TJ had about the same amount of head coaching experience as Roy Williams had when he took the Kansas job. Less if you count Williams' stint as a high school golf coach.

[tjbison]

But my understanding is they have. (Can't find the data.) I just wonder if we are not thinking big enough in the Summit. You have 4 core state funded schools at this point all with great facilities. Is there is enough talent that can be recruited to the tundra to pull up the quality of play? Wichita is going to really hurt MVC if they leave.......

I am not saying this would happen over night, but 10 years? 20 years?

are you saying the Summit has had 2 teams in before? I dont think so, maybe way back in the Day the Mid-Con did but that would have been 30 plus years or more ago

and it sounds like as of today WSU is gone starting play in the AAC next year, same road Creighton took, leaving the Valley with missing team and schedule

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/aac-preparing-wichita-state-join-league-2017-18/

[THEsocalledfan]

are you saying the Summit has had 2 teams in before? I dont think so, maybe way back in the Day the Mid-Con did but that would have been 30 plus years or more ago

and it sounds like as of today WSU is gone starting play in the AAC next year, same road Creighton took, leaving the Valley with missing team and schedule

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/aac-preparing-wichita-state-join-league-2017-18/

no, mvc 10 char

[wow]

are you saying the Summit has had 2 teams in before? I dont think so, maybe way back in the Day the Mid-Con did but that would have been 30 plus years or more ago

and it sounds like as of today WSU is gone starting play in the AAC next year, same road Creighton took, leaving the Valley with missing team and schedule

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/aac-preparing-wichita-state-join-league-2017-18/

The Mid-Major reality is that the conference tournaments have to play out just right to earn multiple bids. The current reality (not 10 or 30 years ago) means this is just as true in the MVC as it is in the Summit.

It is obviously very early, but next year's Summit has as good a chance as ever of earning multiple bids. We were very close a few years ago, all it would have taken was a slightly different Summit tournament outcome.

Neither the Summit or MVC are going to get consistent multiple bids going forward, no matter who shuffles where.

[NDSUstudent]

I wouldn't say SDSU got TJ at a bargain price, they paid market value.

If NDSU wants a high major assistant someday they'll be paying the same kind of rate.

[wow]

I wouldn't say SDSU got TJ at a bargain price, they paid market value.

If NDSU wants a high major assistant someday they'll be paying the same kind of rate.

I agree.

Strictly my opinion, but TJ brings an excellent recruiting ability and a pretty amazing contact list to the table. Depending on your point of view, those intangibles could make him a bargain.

[tjbison]

What does the bunnies coach have to do with this topic??

Lets get back to the speculation on WSU and the MVC

[NDSUstudent]

UNO to the Horizon? Denver was also mentioned as being coveted...This is why you go to the MVC if offered....Get us out of the bottom of the conference food chain...


Several sources say the Horizon League is looking to expand by two schools, and perhaps four. The reason: improving the league’s basketball profile but also providing more conference games and, thus, more home game revenue for members.



http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-when-wichita-state-kicks-off-mid-major-realignment/article_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html

[tjbison]

UNO to the Horizon? Denver was also mentioned as being coveted...This is why you go to the MVC if offered....Get us out of the bottom of the conference food chain...



http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-when-wichita-state-kicks-off-mid-major-realignment/article_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html

oh boy...yeah, we need to go...but also could this news help, MVC STATE schools cant really let the Summit fall apart

[silkamilkamonico]

Summit has never had an at large bid. There are a lot of things that would have to happen for them to get to the point of even having a team on the bubble.

[silkamilkamonico]

UNO to the Horizon? Denver was also mentioned as being coveted...This is why you go to the MVC if offered....Get us out of the bottom of the conference food chain...



http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-if-when-wichita-state-kicks-off-mid-major-realignment/article_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html

I can see UNO moving up the basketball conference ladder rather quickly.

[ByeSonBusiness]

Summit has never had an at large bid. There are a lot of things that would have to happen for them to get to the point of even having a team on the bubble.

Yeah, get out asap.

[BisonAccountant44]

Summit has never had an at large bid. There are a lot of things that would have to happen for them to get to the point of even having a team on the bubble.

Wasn't ORU in the last 4 out their last year before moving or was it Oakland? Whoever it was, and whichever year it was, that's was probably the closest the Summit will ever get to 2 bids.

[taper]

Have to admit, I had not considered the serous blow this would be to MVC and how that may be good for the Summit. Can the Summit get good enough to ever be a two bid league? That should be the goal.

MVC will be a consistent 1 bid league before the Summit gets a 2nd bid.

[HerdBot]

If the MVC looks at Omaha simply because it's a big market... these decision makers are ignorant. That's like saying... "Hey Chicago State is in Chicago so they have a TV audience of 20 million!" Nobody cares. Nobody even goes to Loyola games and Omaha is a poor mans version. Omaha is as much Nebraska as Moorhead State is Minnesota. They don't have a tradition like Creighton. You grab a so called small market team like SDSU or NDSU ... you get the entire state of North Dakota, South Dakota, Northern Nebraska, Western Minnesota, and even parts of Iowa. Heck Omaha couldn't even keep a football team because nobody went.

We really need to get the hell out of this conference.

[TAILG8R]

Who said the MVC was looking at Omaha?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HerdBot]

Who said the MVC was looking at Omaha?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Go back a page there is a link. May be speculation though

[tjbison]

Who said the MVC was looking at Omaha?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The article stated the Horizon is, but UNO has been mentioned elsewhere as a possible expansion candidate to the MVC, with ORU, Oakland, Valpo, Belmont, Saint Louis U. Its all speculation though, probably find out Sunday a bit more in the Direction the MVC is going as they are holding an emergency meeting of Presidents in St. Louis.

Some have reported possible expansion by 3 schools, some have said zero. I doubt they wouldn't add anyone as that is a sure fire miss and totally Idiotic thing to do.

[TAILG8R]

I see. I thought that was just about the Horizon. Btw take a look at that member list - woof what a bunch of terrible members, keep me as far away from that league as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tjbison]

I see. I thought that was just about the Horizon. Btw take a look at that member list - woof what a bunch of terrible members, keep me as far away from that league as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Horizon is all BBall schools like the MVC, surprised UW-Milwaukee and UW-Green Bay are not in the talks, and they very well could be who knows. WSU might have just fired the first shot of some big shifts that could leave a couple Mid-Low major Conferences in pieces and the Summit will be one of them, I just hope we are on the good end of it when the smoke clears and not in the Life Flight chopper

[NDSUstudent]

I've seen some MVC fans calling us a football school(which we are obviously) but I guess that means we can never be good at basketball...

Past five years(average RPI)
NDSU: 86.8(33 best RPI, 125 worst)
SDSU: 95.4(28, 155)

UNI: 88(14, 162)
ISU: 92.4(33, 136)
Evansville: 144.6(93, 216)
ISUB: 148(72, 233)
SIU: 193.2(138, 276)
MSU: 196.4(87, 248)
Loyolla: 211.6(123, 292)
Drake: 245.6(144, 326)
Bradley: 254.8(191, 306)

[tjbison]

I've seen some MVC fans calling us a football school(which we are obviously) but I guess that means we can never be good at basketball...

Past five years(average RPI)
NDSU: 86.8(33 best RPI, 125 worst)
SDSU: 95.4(28, 155)

UNI: 88(14, 162)
ISU: 92.4(33, 136)
Evansville: 144.6(93, 216)
ISUB: 148(72, 233)
SIU: 193.2(138, 276)
MSU: 196.4(87, 248)
Loyolla: 211.6(123, 292)
Drake: 245.6(144, 326)
Bradley: 254.8(191, 306)

Wow, kind of throws the "weak addition" argument out the window

[THEsocalledfan]

I've seen some MVC fans calling us a football school(which we are obviously) but I guess that means we can never be good at basketball...

Past five years(average RPI)
NDSU: 86.8(33 best RPI, 125 worst)
SDSU: 95.4(28, 155)

UNI: 88(14, 162)
ISU: 92.4(33, 136)
Evansville: 144.6(93, 216)
ISUB: 148(72, 233)
SIU: 193.2(138, 276)
MSU: 196.4(87, 248)
Loyolla: 211.6(123, 292)
Drake: 245.6(144, 326)
Bradley: 254.8(191, 306)

Seriously, if they want quality teams you can trust to lift up your league, you take NDSU/SDSU. My question is political dynamics out there. You now have, despite what all a saying, a potentially very stable Summit League, and politicians could start meddling if they feel UxD is potentially left behind.

[ndsubison1]

The Mid-Major reality is that the conference tournaments have to play out just right to earn multiple bids. The current reality (not 10 or 30 years ago) means this is just as true in the MVC as it is in the Summit.

It is obviously very early, but next year's Summit has as good a chance as ever of earning multiple bids. We were very close a few years ago, all it would have taken was a slightly different Summit tournament outcome.

Neither the Summit or MVC are going to get consistent multiple bids going forward, no matter who shuffles where.

It was the closest we've even been to getting two bids, but was it actually close?

[tjbison]

It was the closest we've even been to getting two bids, but was it actually close?

nope.......

[wow]

MVC will be a consistent 1 bid league before the Summit gets a 2nd bid.

Without Creighton/Wichita, the MVC is a 1 bid league right now, no better or worse than the Summit from that standpoint. You can't keep cutting off the top of the league and not expect it to have post-season consequences.

2007 CU, S. Illinois
2008 Drake
2009 UNI
2010 UNI
2011 Indiana State
2012 CU, Wichita St.
2013 CU, Wichita St.
2014 Wichita State
2015 UNI, Wichita St.
2016 UNI, Wichita St.
2017 Wichita St.

By contrast, the Summit League just added the regular season and tournament champion from another conference. Of the other 2 schools recently added, one just won the regular season and one made the tournament championship as a 3 seed.

Next year, the Summit will play with 3 teams who have made the tournament in the last 5 years (SDSU, NDSU, UND).

The MVC will play with 1 (UNI).

There are new/renovated arenas coming online over the league.

One league has consistently improved its membership for the last 10 years, one has consistently lost its best members. I have little doubt that if the Dakota schools stay in the Summit, within 5 years it will be the better conference.

IMO, the MVC is a little like getting hit on by the hot girl from high school at the class reunion. She has put on 30 pounds, is recently divorced, and has 2 kids. Things are not what they once were.

[tjbison]

Without Creighton/Wichita, the MVC is a 1 bid league right now, no better or worse than the Summit from that standpoint. You can't keep cutting off the top of the league and not expect it to have post-season consequences.

2007 CU, S. Illinois
2008 Drake
2009 UNI
2010 UNI
2011 Indiana State
2012 CU, Wichita St.
2013 CU, Wichita St.
2014 Wichita State
2015 UNI, Wichita St.
2016 UNI, Wichita St.
2017 Wichita St.

By contrast, the Summit League just added the regular season and tournament champion from another conference. Of the other 2 schools recently added, one just won the regular season and one made the tournament championship as a 3 seed.

Next year, the Summit will play with 3 teams who have made the tournament in the last 5 years (SDSU, NDSU, UND).

The MVC will play with 1 (UNI).

There are new/renovated arenas coming online over the league.

One league has consistently improved its membership for the last 10 years, one has consistently lost its best members. I have little doubt that if the Dakota schools stay in the Summit, within 5 years it will be the better conference.

IMO, the MVC is a little like getting hit on by the hot girl from high school at the class reunion. She has put on 30 pounds, is recently divorced, and has 2 kids. Things are not what they once were.

disagree, Summit has no more to gain, MVC is and will always be a more respected conference, and bigger schools will schedule H/H with MVC teams, they get ESPN games etc.. Summit has well reached its "good: membership Summit

its a stepping stone conference, always will be because it does build schools and there is good Ball but nobody stays long term. MVC calls you answer period I would love to play MSU, ISU-R, SIU, UNI, ISU-B in all sports every year would help the fanbase also

which is more appealing

Friday night game with IUPUI or UNI??? I would also make a point to travel to a couple road games a year as their arenas are not all HS gyms and they have fans

[THEsocalledfan]

Wow, guys. Having 4, state funded, Dakota schools does not make Summit fundamentally stronger than it likely ever was before? What am I missing? (Did not even mention another potential, very strong state school in Omaha.) The past is the past; this is a MAJOR blow for the MVC and think wow is not as nuts as many do. What am I missing?

[HerdBot]

Wow, guys. Having 4, state funded, Dakota schools does not make Summit fundamentally stronger than it likely ever was before? What am I missing? (Did not even mention another potential, very strong state school in Omaha.) The past is the past; this is a MAJOR blow for the MVC and think wow is not as nuts as many do. What am I missing?

The conference is stable with the 4 Dakota schools but you can't build any national recognition if you can't get to the big dance because the conference is a one bid

[tjbison]

i find it funny people want out of the Best FCS Football Conference ASAP to make a more expensive lateral move to a crappy FBS league that means nothing in the terms of the College landscape but a shit load of more money to play in a bowl

but want to stay in a Revolving door, non respected, sub par basketball league instead of possibly moving to a respected conference that would line us up with Football peers and give a shot (albeit in the future) but a shot at a at large to the NCAA tournament. MVC changes the recruit type we get, changes our exposure natyionally with CBS and ESPN games, playing good teams, possibly playing top 25 teams in OUR house on a regular basis, playing teams people are familiar with because of football

yeah lets stay with WIU, IUPUI, IPFW...MVC or bust, first chance Omaha, ORU, Denver get to leave they are gone, what good is 4 dakota schools in a conference of nothing..

[THEsocalledfan]

i find it funny people want out of the Best FCS Football Conference ASAP to make a more expensive lateral move to a crappy FBS league that means nothing in the terms of the College landscape but a shit load of more money to play in a bowl

but want to stay in a Revolving door, non respected, sub par basketball league instead of possibly moving to a respected conference that would line us up with Football peers and give a shot (albeit in the future) but a shot at a at large to the NCAA tournament. MVC changes the recruit type we get, changes our exposure natyionally with CBS and ESPN games, playing good teams, possibly playing top 25 teams in OUR house on a regular basis, playing teams people are familiar with because of football

yeah lets stay with WIU, IUPUI, IPFW...MVC or bust, first chance Omaha, ORU, Denver get to leave they are gone, what good is 4 dakota schools in a conference of nothing..

But why will the MVC continue to be better? That is what I am not following.

[tjbison]

But why will the MVC continue to be better? That is what I am not following.

How will the summit get any better again, apparently any team not in the Dakota's is looking for something better??

look at the MVC history, i now its history, but i dont get how WSU leaving will crumble the Valley, UNI and ISU-R will take over the top now

Summit Champion was a feaking 16 seed, we would have been a 15 if we won it, that's horse shit. I really think had ISU-R beat WSU they may have got 2 in this year

[wow]

The conference is stable with the 4 Dakota schools but you can't build any national recognition if you can't get to the big dance because the conference is a one bid

The MVC is not a multi-bid league without WSU.

[wow]

i find it funny people want out of the Best FCS Football Conference ASAP to make a more expensive lateral move to a crappy FBS league that means nothing in the terms of the College landscape but a shit load of more money to play in a bowl

but want to stay in a Revolving door, non respected, sub par basketball league instead of possibly moving to a respected conference that would line us up with Football peers and give a shot (albeit in the future) but a shot at a at large to the NCAA tournament. MVC changes the recruit type we get, changes our exposure natyionally with CBS and ESPN games, playing good teams, possibly playing top 25 teams in OUR house on a regular basis, playing teams people are familiar with because of football

yeah lets stay with WIU, IUPUI, IPFW...MVC or bust, first chance Omaha, ORU, Denver get to leave they are gone, what good is 4 dakota schools in a conference of nothing..

Which conference has lost more schools in the last 5 years?

ORU and Denver have both tested the waters elsewhere and chose to come to the Summit League. Maybe they would be looking to jump, but my guess is they would be exceedingly cautious.

[tjbison]

Which conference has lost more schools in the last 5 years?

ORU and Denver have both tested the waters elsewhere and chose to come to the Summit League. Maybe they would be looking to jump, but my guess is they would be exceedingly cautious.

yeah losing schools to the Big east and AAC are the same as the WAC, Horizon...get real

[Christopher Moen]

i find it funny people want out of the Best FCS Football Conference ASAP to make a more expensive lateral move to a crappy FBS league that means nothing in the terms of the College landscape but a shit load of more money to play in a bowl

but want to stay in a Revolving door, non respected, sub par basketball league instead of possibly moving to a respected conference that would line us up with Football peers and give a shot (albeit in the future) but a shot at a at large to the NCAA tournament. MVC changes the recruit type we get, changes our exposure natyionally with CBS and ESPN games, playing good teams, possibly playing top 25 teams in OUR house on a regular basis, playing teams people are familiar with because of football

yeah lets stay with WIU, IUPUI, IPFW...MVC or bust, first chance Omaha, ORU, Denver get to leave they are gone, what good is 4 dakota schools in a conference of nothing..

Not really true. More like a nugget.

[silkamilkamonico]

Again. The "bad" argument is not about the MVC slipping because of dejection's. It's a lot of you people trying to somehow "sell" the Summit.

Summit is adding a conference Championship in UND. Out of the Big Sky, that is annually a bottom tier conference. They were a midlevel Summit team this year, in the best year of their existence, and in a year where the Summit was DOWN in terms of top level teams. They don't somehow make the Summit conference stronger. You have a plethora of teams who will never be more than what they are in the teams out east in the Summit. They will never be a consistently better program.

Oral Roberts is on the downside of their decent level coaches tenure, and haven't really been strong since 2008. forget about them making the Summit relevant.

You want to laugh at the MVC for WSU leaving? They still have 2-4 programs that are capable of having good years and being a bubble team or an at large that have actually done it. Maybe not next year, but that's a selling point for them moving forward.

Horizon? Summit just lost one of it's best, longest tenured coaches in Scott Nagy to Wright State. Wright fricken state. Wright State, out of the Horizon Conference, is laughing at the Summit.

Since we're hopping up on wishes, my wish is for NDSU to take a good chunk of the money it puts into football, put it into basketball, and start making a stronger effort to climb the conference ladder of Division 1 basketball.

Summit isn't a bad conference. It's just a dead end conference.

[Bison"FANatic"]

Which conference has lost more schools in the last 5 years?



The problem is that the higher conferences were doing the shuffling and poach from the MVC. Now the MVC will poach from low tier midmajors, if it is us, Omaha, Denver, USD, SDSU where is the Summit going to poach from. The choices are not all that great.

Building the Summit up would be fantastic, but I would rather help build up a MVC as the foundation to that conference is already stronger to build on.

There are a lot of teams in the Summit who view it as good enough. The MVC teams that have tasted the mid major success are going to be more willing to put in the resources and try to get back there.

[NDSUstudent]

But why will the MVC continue to be better? That is what I am not following.

Add NDSU and SDSU to the mix and it is going to be pretty damn good, I have no idea why this is so hard for people to grasp. Actually I get it with some SDSU fans...they value the conference tournament location above conference affiliation.

We ditch the Summit dead weight and move to a league of stronger schools. If we were in a league like the MVC we could help build it into something pretty good.

[Bisonator98]

How will the summit get any better again, apparently any team not in the Dakota's is looking for something better??

look at the MVC history, i now its history, but i dont get how WSU leaving will crumble the Valley, UNI and ISU-R will take over the top now

Summit Champion was a feaking 16 seed, we would have been a 15 if we won it, that's horse shit. I really think had ISU-R beat WSU they may have got 2 in this year

Until they leave too then what?

[silkamilkamonico]

Until they leave too then what?


Then we jump at our opportunity to get in the conference that all the higher major conferences are picking from. Settling for "an ok situation is why UND has been left back in the rear view mirror and forced to play catch up.

[tjbison]

Until they leave too then what?

to where?? they have Football UNI and ISU are not dropping that nor going FBS. The non FB schools are transitioning out

[oldmantutters]

Just going by name recognition the MVC wins out over the Summit. On the Insiders today, they made it sound like to be competitive in the MVC NDSU would have to about quadruple their bball budget. Kind of hard to convince people to make that kind of jump with the state budget issues we are going through right now.

I don't know, could we convince the 5 MVFC teams that are in the MVC by agreeing on a rotating conference tourney? I know the answer is no but I see that as the best "solution" in my mind. That would put the Summit at 14 teams which is a lot but not unheard of.

[NDSUstudent]

Wanting to stay in the Summit instead of going to the MVC is exactly the kind of thinking that got us stuck in D2 for so long.

[NDSUstudent]

Just going by name recognition the MVC wins out over the Summit. On the Insiders today, they made it sound like to be competitive in the MVC NDSU would have to about quadruple their bball budget. Kind of hard to convince people to make that kind of jump with the state budget issues we are going through right now.

I don't know, could we convince the 5 MVFC teams that are in the MVC by agreeing on a rotating conference tourney? I know the answer is no but I see that as the best "solution" in my mind. That would put the Summit at 14 teams which is a lot but not unheard of.

If we doubled our MBB budget, we would be near the top of the MVC. WSU skews the numbers for the MVC, they had a budget of over $6 million with them gone the highest budget is around $3 million(Same as the Summit with Denver who we have no issues competing with). We would need to do more but probably like $400-500k more. Biggest difference is coaching salaries.

[oldmantutters]

If we doubled our MBB budget, we would be near the top of the MVC. WSU skews the numbers for the MVC, they had a budget of over $6 million. We would need to do more but probably like $400-500k more.

Having no idea what the current bball budget is (and being far too lazy to look it up) that seems low. I'd imagine coaching salaries would have to increase, Jacobson is around $1mil isn't he? Where are the remaining coaches at? And assistants?

[wow]

Wanting to stay in the Summit instead of going to the MVC is exactly the kind of thinking that got us stuck in D2 for so long.

No it isn't.

There was no way to improve DII or the NCC, and no reason to think they would get better. In fact, both were getting worse.

By contrast, there is no debating that the Summit has improved dramatically over the last 10 years.

[NDSUstudent]

Having no idea what the current bball budget is (and being far too lazy to look it up) that seems low. I'd imagine coaching salaries would have to increase, Jacobson is around $1mil isn't he? Where are the remaining coaches at? And assistants?

I think our current budget is close to $1.5 million, UNI is just under $3 million. Other schools like MSU and SIU are around 2.2.

MVC salaries...This is from 2015...
Greg Lansing, Indiana State
Salary: $296,000/year

Marty Simmons, Evansville
Salary: Estimated $180K/year

Barry Hinson, Southern Illinois
Salary: $300K/year

Paul Lusk, Missouri State
Salary: $396K/year

Ben Jacobson, Northern Iowa (Under contract through 2025)
Salary: $900K (base)/year (average)

[silkamilkamonico]

Here were salary's in 2015.

http://www.pjstarforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=99572

Top heavy of competing may be a concern for NDSU. Richman makes probably pretty equivalent to Evansville which is really bringing up the rear. The South Dakota schools would be comparable to Southern Illinois and Indiana State which would round up the rear. Bradley's coach made $700,000 a year.

[NDSUstudent]

No it isn't.

There was no way to improve DII or the NCC, and no reason to think they would get better. In fact, both were getting worse.

By contrast, there is no debating that the Summit has improved dramatically over the last 10 years.

The Summit is our safe little shell, we stayed in the NCC/D2 because it was safe.

The Summit is about as good as it is ever going to get.

[oldmantutters]

I think our current budget is close to $1.5 million, UNI is just under $3 million. Other schools like MSU and SIU are around 2.2.

MVC salaries...This is from 2015...
Greg Lansing, Indiana State
Salary: $296,000/year

Marty Simmons, Evansville
Salary: Estimated $180K/year

Barry Hinson, Southern Illinois
Salary: $300K/year

Paul Lusk, Missouri State
Salary: $396K/year

Ben Jacobson, Northern Iowa (Under contract through 2025)
Salary: $900K (base)/year (average)

We really aren't too far off then. The number you came up with would be a slight increase across coaching salaries and increased travel, I'm assuming?

[NDSUstudent]

We really aren't too far off then. The number you came up with would be a slight increase across coaching salaries and increased travel, I'm assuming?

Yeah, coaching salaries are the biggest gap between us and the MVC. Travel is kind of similar, I couldn't see that increasing much.

Some MVC school like UNI do buy some more home games against other DI teams, like our football team does.

[silkamilkamonico]

No it isn't.

There was no way to improve DII or the NCC, and no reason to think they would get better. In fact, both were getting worse.

By contrast, there is no debating that the Summit has improved dramatically over the last 10 years.

It saw a minimal surge with the addition of the dakota schools and that's it.

2017 = 19th
2016 = 12th
2015 = 21st
2014 = 18th
2013 = 19th
2012 = 16th
2011 = 21st
2010 = 24th


This only strengthens the argument that it isn't really going to get much better, mainly because of the other teams who haven't shown the ability really to get stronger as a program. We have added Denver, who might even leave again for the Horizon, and doesn't really give the conference much of a bump anyways.

UND certainly isn't going to help it strength wise...

[Bison"FANatic"]

Interesting to compare some attendance figures. If you look at the conference home games of UNI and the conference home games of NDSU. UNI averaged 4696 last years, we averaged 4164.

[Bison bison]

Didn't you guys read The Great Gatsby?

This is a bad f#cking idea.

[Mr Meaty]

The MVC is not a multi-bid league without WSU.

Correct! :judges:

[Bison bison]

Dude.

Bradley won the NCAA tournament in 1856.

[wow]

It saw a minimal surge with the addition of the dakota schools and that's it.

2017 = 19th
2016 = 12th
2015 = 21st
2014 = 18th
2013 = 19th
2012 = 16th
2011 = 21st
2010 = 24th


This only strengthens the argument that it isn't really going to get much better, mainly because of the other teams who haven't shown the ability really to get stronger as a program. We have added Denver, who might even leave again for the Horizon, and doesn't really give the conference much of a bump anyways.

UND certainly isn't going to help it strength wise...

LOL, what? I'm no statistician, but my guess is the improvement has been significant.

http://i.imgur.com/NAJ71D3.jpg

[jacksfan29]

Just going by name recognition the MVC wins out over the Summit. On the Insiders today, they made it sound like to be competitive in the MVC NDSU would have to about quadruple their bball budget. Kind of hard to convince people to make that kind of jump with the state budget issues we are going through right now.

I don't know, could we convince the 5 MVFC teams that are in the MVC by agreeing on a rotating conference tourney? I know the answer is no but I see that as the best "solution" in my mind. That would put the Summit at 14 teams which is a lot but not unheard of.

Just put it in Des Moines and everyone would be happy. Downtown Des Moines is pretty fun.

I would absolutely love to be in an all sports conference with the MVFC schools, but it isn't going to happen, not yet. I would not be surprised at all to see the MVC add only one school to replace WSU. Valpo, UIC or UMKC. If that happens UNI and Illinois State will not be happy. You could very well see a public private split which would open the door for SDSU and NDSU to join with the five MVC State schools and bring along USD, UND for all sports, and Omaha for Olympic sports. That would be a strong, 9 team FB conference that could move up to the G5 level and a 10 team basketball conference that could easily become an annual 2 bid league.

I think everyone needs some patience. Neither XDSU have a shot at even being in the conversation this time around. There is just to much animosity from the non-MVFC schools to even consider adding two large, public FB playing schools to the current MVC.

And yes, eventually the Summit will be a dead end. There are too many schools who are not going to fund to the level necessary to become a strong mid-major league. The conference will hit a plateau and we don't want to be hanging around doing nothing when that happens. The XDSU's getting fat and happy and splitting annual trips to the NCAA tournament won't cut it after a while.

[NDSUstudent]

If they add UMKC, the conference is signing its own death sentence.

That said I'm much more concerned with the MVC adding Horizon schools...that is what could end up causing waves in the Summit.

[HerdBot]

If they add UMKC, the conference is signing its own death sentence.

If they add UMKC, they are looking more and more like the Summit. I mean, I wouldn't even be excited if we got them back in our conference. I would look at them as a good footprint team at best.

[Bison bison]

I wouldn't be surprised if they go east for murray state or belmont.

the last thing mvc-mvfc schools want is a destabilized summit.

[tjbison]

I wouldn't be surprised if they go east for murray state or belmont.

the last thing mvc-mvfc schools want is a destabilized summit.

so Murray St will be in the MVFC then also??

[Bison bison]

Doubtful.

Looks like Belmont it is!

[NDSUstudent]

so Murray St will be in the MVFC then also??

Either that, the Pioneer or they give up on the whole football thing.

[Hammersmith]

If we doubled our MBB budget, we would be near the top of the MVC. WSU skews the numbers for the MVC, they had a budget of over $6 million with them gone the highest budget is around $3 million(Same as the Summit with Denver who we have no issues competing with). We would need to do more but probably like $400-500k more. Biggest difference is coaching salaries.

Doubling our budget would put us in an effective 3-way tie for second place when WSU leaves.


Here are the 2015-16 numbers from the US Dept of Ed.

MVC
56) Wichita State University 6,920,933
121) Bradley University 3,128,419
132) University of Northern Iowa 2,899,699
133) University of Evansville 2,899,667
139) Loyola University Chicago 2,745,553
153) Drake University 2,472,212
156) Illinois State University 2,452,961
171) Missouri State University-Springfield 2,279,917
175) Southern Illinois University-Carbondale 2,241,413
208) Indiana State University 1,832,975

Summit
114) University of Denver 3,361,111
140) Oral Roberts University 2,741,483
251) University of North Dakota 1,579,108
253) Indiana University-Purdue University-Indianapolis 1,564,479
274) South Dakota State University 1,443,001
278) North Dakota State University-Main Campus 1,417,450
300) University of Nebraska at Omaha 1,288,481
303) Indiana University-Purdue University-Fort Wayne 1,269,206
304) Western Illinois University 1,238,197
313) University of South Dakota 1,156,551

[HerdBot]

Doubling our budget would put us in an effective 3-way tie for second place when WSU leaves.


Here are the 2015-16 numbers from the US Dept of Ed.

MVC
56) Wichita State University 6,920,933
121) Bradley University 3,128,419
132) University of Northern Iowa 2,899,699
133) University of Evansville 2,899,667
139) Loyola University Chicago 2,745,553
153) Drake University 2,472,212
156) Illinois State University 2,452,961
171) Missouri State University-Springfield 2,279,917
175) Southern Illinois University-Carbondale 2,241,413
208) Indiana State University 1,832,975

Summit
114) University of Denver 3,361,111
140) Oral Roberts University 2,741,483
251) University of North Dakota 1,579,108
253) Indiana University-Purdue University-Indianapolis 1,564,479
274) South Dakota State University 1,443,001
278) North Dakota State University-Main Campus 1,417,450
300) University of Nebraska at Omaha 1,288,481
303) Indiana University-Purdue University-Fort Wayne 1,269,206
304) Western Illinois University 1,238,197
313) University of South Dakota 1,156,551

North Dakota State and South Dakota State have dominated the Summit and we don't even spend that much. Of course since we have a shiny new arena we will be able to dramatically increase revenue. Let's see what we can do if we double it

By adding any combo of Ndsu, USD, or Sdsu they valley would have 75% of North Dakota, South Dakota, western Minnesota and a huge alumni base in Minneapolis from those schools. You have built in rivals with Missouri Valley teams so it's great for attendance. Sorry but when you get the biggest teams of a STATE university it's more big time than some little private school

[silkamilkamonico]

LOL, what? I'm no statistician, but my guess is the improvement has been significant.

http://i.imgur.com/NAJ71D3.jpg




No. In 2003-2004, the Summit Conference RPI was 20th. In 01-02 it was 22nd. In 97-98 it was 21st. It's seen nothing more than a marginal increase since the Dakota Schools have been in and that's it. The Summit Conference is 1 conference better than it was 15 years ago. There's no "significant" increase. There was a fluke year last in which it finished 12th and then it tumbled right back to 19th, 1 conference better than it was 15 years ago.

[tjbison]

No. In 2003-2004, the Summit Conference RPI was 20th. In 01-02 it was 22nd. In 97-98 it was 21st. It's seen nothing more than a marginal increase since the Dakota Schools have been in and that's it. The Summit Conference is 1 conference better than it was 15 years ago. There's no "significant" increase. There was a fluke year last in which it finished 12th and then it tumbled right back to 19th, 1 conference better than it was 15 years ago.

yeah, the "Summit is going to be as good as the MVC" crowd is going to run out of ammo fast, its insane to think that. Summit IMO has reached its plateau, we get stuck here its going to be a jumble mess that will be falling behind the BSC if Denver, Omaha, and yes even ORU leave. We will have to try and fill in with crap from the WAC and that will forever sink us to 16 seeds and play in games in the tourney. but hey we will be playing in Suck falls....

[HerdBot]

This might have been posted but this article suggests adding all 4 Dakota schools

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/29/15080936/conference-realignment-what-should-the-mvc-do-if-when-wichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers

[tjbison]

This might have been posted but this article suggests adding all 4 Dakota schools

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/29/15080936/conference-realignment-what-should-the-mvc-do-if-when-wichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers

would be about right, Fucking UND ride the coatails of NDSU and SDSU's work into the Valley

But I dont at all see that happening, its a stretch for NDSU to get looked at no way UND is on the radar

[HerdBot]

would be about right, Fucking UND ride the coatails of NDSU and SDSU's work into the Valley

But I dont at all see that happening, its a stretch for NDSU to get looked at no way UND is on the radar

Yeah but when it comes to something as big as this, even I will give them a pass. All 4 teams would be awesome rivals, travel partners and would guarantee 8 sell outs per year.

[Bison bison]

The Summit League with UND, SDSU, USD, and UNO is better home for NDSU than the MVC without Wichita State.

[Professorbum]

Without Creighton/Wichita, the MVC is a 1 bid league right now, no better or worse than the Summit from that standpoint. You can't keep cutting off the top of the league and not expect it to have post-season consequences.

2007 CU, S. Illinois
2008 Drake
2009 UNI
2010 UNI
2011 Indiana State
2012 CU, Wichita St.
2013 CU, Wichita St.
2014 Wichita State
2015 UNI, Wichita St.
2016 UNI, Wichita St.
2017 Wichita St.

By contrast, the Summit League just added the regular season and tournament champion from another conference. Of the other 2 schools recently added, one just won the regular season and one made the tournament championship as a 3 seed.

Next year, the Summit will play with 3 teams who have made the tournament in the last 5 years (SDSU, NDSU, UND).

The MVC will play with 1 (UNI).

There are new/renovated arenas coming online over the league.

One league has consistently improved its membership for the last 10 years, one has consistently lost its best members. I have little doubt that if the Dakota schools stay in the Summit, within 5 years it will be the better conference.

IMO, the MVC is a little like getting hit on by the hot girl from high school at the class reunion. She has put on 30 pounds, is recently divorced, and has 2 kids. Things are not what they once were.

Except that we're not actually getting "hit on" by her. We're thinking about how cool it would be to be hit on by her so that we could show that we don't really care for her anymore. But in fact, even with the divorce, the 30 pounds, and 2 kids, she's gonna walk right by us in the gym at the reunion and make a b-line for the ex-jock, who himself has gained 30 pounds and works behind the register at SuperAmerica. We won't even get a chance to be smug.

[Professorbum]

i find it funny people want out of the Best FCS Football Conference ASAP to make a more expensive lateral move to a crappy FBS league that means nothing in the terms of the College landscape but a shit load of more money to play in a bowl

but want to stay in a Revolving door, non respected, sub par basketball league instead of possibly moving to a respected conference that would line us up with Football peers and give a shot (albeit in the future) but a shot at a at large to the NCAA tournament. MVC changes the recruit type we get, changes our exposure natyionally with CBS and ESPN games, playing good teams, possibly playing top 25 teams in OUR house on a regular basis, playing teams people are familiar with because of football

yeah lets stay with WIU, IUPUI, IPFW...MVC or bust, first chance Omaha, ORU, Denver get to leave they are gone, what good is 4 dakota schools in a conference of nothing..

Yes, I want the first thing you said. But if we are not going to get that, I'll take the MVC.

[Bisonator98]

I'd be all in if we could make an all sports conference with the MVFC teams. Anything else is meh, 6 or half dozen, still 1 bid leagues either way. Why increase the budget and still end up sitting out come tourney time?

[Professorbum]

Here were salary's in 2015.

http://www.pjstarforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=99572

Top heavy of competing may be a concern for NDSU. Richman makes probably pretty equivalent to Evansville which is really bringing up the rear. The South Dakota schools would be comparable to Southern Illinois and Indiana State which would round up the rear. Bradley's coach made $700,000 a year.

And Bradley still sucks.

[wow]

Except that we're not actually getting "hit on" by her. We're thinking about how cool it would be to be hit on by her so that we could show that we don't really care for her anymore. But in fact, even with the divorce, the 30 pounds, and 2 kids, she's gonna walk right by us in the gym at the reunion and make a b-line for the ex-jock, who himself has gained 30 pounds and works behind the register at SuperAmerica. We won't even get a chance to be smug.

Good point.

[El_Chapo]

if NDSU admin doesnt have the balls to go FBS.

then they BETTER go after this hard. (but they wont, NDSU admin/ad has given up in my opinion)

[HerdBot]

I'd be all in if we could make an all sports conference with the MVFC teams. Anything else is meh, 6 or half dozen, still 1 bid leagues either way. Why increase the budget and still end up sitting out come tourney time?

Because the quality of the team will be better, much like when we moved to the Gateway. Those first few years were tough but look at us now.

Attendance will increase. Media exposure will increase. That will increase revenue. Heck we will even be in a position to get better non conference games

[HerdBot]

Listing to the insiders they are going to be talking about this today

[HerdBot]

Listing to the insiders they are going to be talking about this today

Culhane doesn't think SDSU would be on board since they have a great deal for the Conference tournament. I contend having a conference tournament isn't any good if your conference dissolves because you don't have enough teams. The Summit is at 10 teams with UND and now the following schools have been mentioned as candidates for the Mo Valley or Horizon. NDSU, UND, USD, SDSU, OMAHA, Denver, Fort Wayne, IUPUI, Oral Roberts.

Better get on board unless you want to be in the WAC. Big Fluffy, or Independent. How about trips to New Mexico, Seattle, and Phoenix?

[tjbison]

Culhane doesn't think SDSU would be on board since they have a great deal for the Conference tournament. I contend having a conference tournament isn't any good if your conference dissolves because you don't have enough teams. The Summit is at 10 teams with UND and now the following schools have been mentioned as candidates for the Mo Valley or Horizon. NDSU, SDSU, USD, SDSU, OMAHA, Denver, Fort Wayne, IUPUI, Oral Roberts.

Better get on board unless you want to be in the WAC or Big Fluffy, or Independent. How about trips to New Mexico, Seattle, and Phoenix

Summit will try raid the WAC??

Either way Horizon will move after the MVC, if We turn down the MVC the Summit may very well be dead anyway. or we get stuck merging with a crappy WAC. Its a freaking no brainer to take the MVC if the offer comes

[silkamilkamonico]

Better get on board unless you want to be in the WAC. Big Fluffy, or Independent. How about trips to New Mexico, Seattle, and Phoenix?

Or just as worse. Stuck with Oral Roberts, IUPUI, Western Illinois, and IPFW.

Maybe we can get UMKC and Southern Utah back. :/

[jacksfan29]

Culhane is an idiot.

SDSU would not turn down an invite to the MVC based on the conference tournament location. I could see us turning it down if we are the only "Dakota" school invited. I doubt we would make the move alone. My guess is if any discussions have occurred SDSU, just like we did with the Gateway have stated it is SDSU and NDSU together or we aren't coming. USD would not be on the radar of the MVC. Too new to D1, too little success and too small a budget. Five years from now USD and SDSU together? Maybe. Today, no. It would be SDSU and NDSU together or we would say no.

And based on geography alone, NDSU would not get an MVC invite by themselves. It just will not happen. Brookings is out there for the MVC schools. Fargo is on another planet for the Drake's and Evansville's of the world.


Culhane doesn't think SDSU would be on board since they have a great deal for the Conference tournament. I contend having a conference tournament isn't any good if your conference dissolves because you don't have enough teams. The Summit is at 10 teams with UND and now the following schools have been mentioned as candidates for the Mo Valley or Horizon. NDSU, UND, USD, SDSU, OMAHA, Denver, Fort Wayne, IUPUI, Oral Roberts.

Better get on board unless you want to be in the WAC. Big Fluffy, or Independent. How about trips to New Mexico, Seattle, and Phoenix?

[Mr Meaty]

Why cant the Summit League expand vs being raided for team to other conferences? I personally think once WSU leave MVC that conference is down to just UNI and Ill St. Why cant those two look at joining the Summit and screw the private school in the MVC. I like the direction the Summit is heading and I think it will be a very good mid major conference always. They are rivals of ours already.

[silkamilkamonico]

Why cant the Summit League expand vs being raided for team to other conferences? I personally think once WSU leave MVC that conference is down to just UNI and Ill St. Why cant those two look at joining the Summit and screw the private school in the MVC. I like the direction the Summit is heading and I think it will be a very good mid major conference always. They are rivals of ours already.

For one, MVC has a CBS TV contract which gives them national exposure. A lot of reasons, but that would be one.

[Bison"FANatic"]

Why cant the Summit League expand vs being raided for team to other conferences? I personally think once WSU leave MVC that conference is down to just UNI and Ill St. Why cant those two look at joining the Summit and screw the private school in the MVC. I like the direction the Summit is heading and I think it will be a very good mid major conference always. They are rivals of ours already.

The MVC also has quite a bit more tourney money credits coming. Each game played in the tourney is worth something like 1.25 to1.5 million paid out over 5 or 6 years to the conference that is then distributed out to the teams in said conference. That payment alone would drop down by hundreds of thousands if a MVC team dropped to the Summit.

[Mr Meaty]

For one, MVC has a CBS TV contract which gives them national exposure. A lot of reasons, but that would be one.

But with Creighton and WSU gone will that contract be renewed??? Also with tourney wins WSU is responsible for most of them with the exception of UNI. So those future wins in the NCAA might be gone as well and therefore no more payments and tv contract with the teams leaving the MVC. Need to think long term and not short term on things. Just my thoughts on the matter.

[silkamilkamonico]

For those understanding the value of conference worth, it is very important to win games in the NCAA tournament. A lot of money to be made for each win. This is Summit's main downfall against the MVC. It needs to win in March. We have one win, thanks to NDSU, that has earned units for the Summit conference. Payout for winning in March extends over a 6 year period. It's probably the main reason why Summit would never be able to poach from MVC. Those teams will get paid over the next 6 years for WSU's hard work, let alone all their wins in the last 6 years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/sports/ncaa-money/

[silkamilkamonico]

But with Creighton and WSU gone will that contract be renewed??? Also with tourney wins WSU is responsible for most of them with the exception of UNI. So those future wins in the NCAA might be gone as well and therefore no more payments and tv contract with the teams leaving the MVC. Need to think long term and not short term on things. Just my thoughts on the matter.


MVC is going to get paid through tournament success for at leastthe next 6 years. Yes, the CBS contract would most likely be renewed. Despite what NDSU fans think, the MVC is held in high regard in college basketball, and that isn't changing anytime soon. It's one of the oldest conferences in the country.

Furthermore, and with all due respect, I don't understand why so many people here think the Summit is somehow the answer to all these other conference stability. people scoff at Evansville and Drake. They scoff even more at IUPUI and IPFW. Nobody want's half of the Summit's teams. Western Illinois has been thinking about dropping down to D3 for some time because it can't sustain it's athletic department. The Dakota schools aren't prestigious enough to overcome them.

[silkamilkamonico]

But with Creighton and WSU gone will that contract be renewed??? Also with tourney wins WSU is responsible for most of them with the exception of UNI. So those future wins in the NCAA might be gone as well and therefore no more payments and tv contract with the teams leaving the MVC. Need to think long term and not short term on things. Just my thoughts on the matter.

They are not gone for the next 6 years. And look at the teams that have won tournament games in the MVC. Bradley, Southern Illinois, Illinois St, most all of these teams have won a game or 2 in the tournament the last 10 years. That's the difference between MVC and Summit. Possibility. Until the Summit can start winning a game or 2 every few years, the possibility isn't really there right now. The Summit has exactly 1 win in the NCAA tournament in it's conference existence with it's current membership in the last 25+ years.

[silkamilkamonico]

Need to think long term and not short term on things. Just my thoughts on the matter.

I agree. But how is the Summit the answer to their problems?

[HerdBot]

Why cant the Summit League expand vs being raided for team to other conferences? I personally think once WSU leave MVC that conference is down to just UNI and Ill St. Why cant those two look at joining the Summit and screw the private school in the MVC. I like the direction the Summit is heading and I think it will be a very good mid major conference always. They are rivals of ours already.

Because why would they want to go to a conference that A) has no media contract and limited exposure B) Is always seemingly on the verge of imploding C) Has some teams that play in glorified high school gyms D) Has never once in their history had more than 1 bid

[HerdBot]

But with Creighton and WSU gone will that contract be renewed??? Also with tourney wins WSU is responsible for most of them with the exception of UNI. So those future wins in the NCAA might be gone as well and therefore no more payments and tv contract with the teams leaving the MVC. Need to think long term and not short term on things. Just my thoughts on the matter.

We wouldn't have to worry about that for 8 years.

[wow]

They are not gone for the next 6 years. And look at the teams that have won tournament games in the MVC. Bradley, Southern Illinois, Illinois St, most all of these teams have won a game or 2 in the tournament the last 10 years. That's the difference between MVC and Summit. Possibility. Until the Summit can start winning a game or 2 every few years, the possibility isn't really there right now. The Summit has exactly 1 win in the NCAA tournament in it's conference existence with it's current membership in the last 25+ years.

No they haven't. Of the teams you listed, only Southern Illinois has "recently" made the tournament, and that was 11 years ago. Southern Illinios did win 2 games that year, which is impressive. Again, that was 11 years ago.

2007 CU, S. Illinois
2008 Drake
2009 UNI
2010 UNI
2011 Indiana State
2012 CU, Wichita St.
2013 CU, Wichita St.
2014 Wichita St.
2015 UNI, Wichita St.
2016 UNI, Wichita St.

From 99-07, the MVC sent multiple teams to the tournament every year with good diversity of who was making it. Since then, they have sent one team 5 of the 10 years. During that time, 2 is the most that have made the tournament. At least one of those 2 has always been Creighton or Wichita State.

Maybe the MVC is better than the Summit, I'm not qualified to make that call. But any objective person should be able to say the MVC is a husk of what it once was. It just isn't that attractive, IMO.

The exclusion of Illinois State from this year's tournament shows the selection committee has come to terms with the reality of the MVC. I hope Summit schools understand that same reality before committing to a move, if that possibility arises. I hope they make decisions based on facts not feelings.

The money argument is a good one. IMO it is the only tangible edge the MVC holds over the Summit if WSU leaves. Jumping to the MVC without careful consideration could be like Denver jumping to the WAC. Tournament shares aren't all that great when all the cool kids have left the party.

[tjbison]

No they haven't. Of the teams you listed, only Southern Illinois has "recently" made the tournament, and that was 11 years ago. Southern Illinios did win 2 games that year, which is impressive. Again, that was 11 years ago.

2007 CU, S. Illinois
2008 Drake
2009 UNI
2010 UNI
2011 Indiana State
2012 CU, Wichita St.
2013 CU, Wichita St.
2014 Wichita St.
2015 UNI, Wichita St.
2016 UNI, Wichita St.

From 99-07, the MVC sent multiple teams to the tournament every year with good diversity of who was making it. Since then, they have sent one team 5 of the 10 years. During that time, 2 is the most that have made the tournament. At least one of those 2 has always been Creighton or Wichita State.

Maybe the MVC is better than the Summit, I'm not qualified to make that call. But any objective person should be able to say the MVC is a husk of what it once was. It just isn't that attractive, IMO.

The exclusion of Illinois State from this year's tournament shows the selection committee has come to terms with the reality of the MVC. I hope Summit schools understand that same reality before committing to a move, if that possibility arises. I hope they make decisions based on facts not feelings.

The money argument is a good one. IMO it is the only tangible edge the MVC holds over the Summit if WSU leaves. Jumping to the MVC without careful consideration could be like Denver jumping to the WAC. Tournament shares aren't all that great when all the cool kids have left the party.

And husk of what it once was is still better than the Summit

[silkamilkamonico]

No they haven't. Of the teams you listed, only Southern Illinois has "recently" made the tournament, and that was 11 years ago. Southern Illinios did win 2 games that year, which is impressive. Again, that was 11 years ago.

2007 CU, S. Illinois
2008 Drake
2009 UNI
2010 UNI
2011 Indiana State
2012 CU, Wichita St.
2013 CU, Wichita St.
2014 Wichita St.
2015 UNI, Wichita St.
2016 UNI, Wichita St.

From 99-07, the MVC sent multiple teams to the tournament every year with good diversity of who was making it. Since then, they have sent one team 5 of the 10 years. During that time, 2 is the most that have made the tournament. At least one of those 2 has always been Creighton or Wichita State.

Maybe the MVC is better than the Summit, I'm not qualified to make that call. But any objective person should be able to say the MVC is a husk of what it once was. It just isn't that attractive, IMO.

The exclusion of Illinois State from this year's tournament shows the selection committee has come to terms with the reality of the MVC. I hope Summit schools understand that same reality before committing to a move, if that possibility arises. I hope they make decisions based on facts not feelings.

The money argument is a good one. IMO it is the only tangible edge the MVC holds over the Summit if WSU leaves. Jumping to the MVC without careful consideration could be like Denver jumping to the WAC. Tournament shares aren't all that great when all the cool kids have left the party.


Curious why you started at 2007? 2006 had 4 teams in form the MVC. Yes. 4.
Witchita St, Bradley, Southern Illinois, and Northern Iowa. this included a Sweet 16 run from Bradley, and a round of 32 appearance from WSU.

The MVC might be better than the Summit. It might not be. It still held in higher regard around college basketball, and will getting tournament payouts far better than the Summit for AT LEAST 6 more years. Programs in the MVC have put resources into their program, made it competitive on a national level, branding the entire conference on a national level, and moved on to bigger and better things. Who's done that in the Summit? Oakland (On a much much smaller?)

There isn't really a reality with how they are viewed it. The MVC was down this year. That doesn't mean the Committee thinks less of the conference. It was simply down this year. It could certainly go back up next year. 2 years ago UNI was a #5 seed.

You can hate on MVC all you want. It's legitimate. Just don't pretend that staying in the Summit is going to somehow be better and more beneficial in terms of climbing a college basketball conference ladder. It's done nothing to show otherwise.

[tjbison]

Curious why you started at 2007? 2006 had 4 teams in form the MVC. Yes. 4.
Witchita St, Bradley, Southern Illinois, and Northern Iowa. this included a Sweet 16 run from Bradley, and a round of 32 appearance from WSU.



Cherry picking facts??

FACT - From 1986-2002 not one current Summit league team had made the Tournament
1990- Mid-Con put 2 teams in, both those teams are currently in the MVC #9 seed Missouri State, #14 Seed UNI
1991 - Mid-Con put 2 teams in, #12 UW-Green Bay, #13 Northern Illinois Horizon and MAC
1 Charter Member of the original Mid-Con remains - Western Illinois
Average seed over conference history #14

[Mr Meaty]

No they haven't. Of the teams you listed, only Southern Illinois has "recently" made the tournament, and that was 11 years ago. Southern Illinios did win 2 games that year, which is impressive. Again, that was 11 years ago.

2007 CU, S. Illinois
2008 Drake
2009 UNI
2010 UNI
2011 Indiana State
2012 CU, Wichita St.
2013 CU, Wichita St.
2014 Wichita St.
2015 UNI, Wichita St.
2016 UNI, Wichita St.

From 99-07, the MVC sent multiple teams to the tournament every year with good diversity of who was making it. Since then, they have sent one team 5 of the 10 years. During that time, 2 is the most that have made the tournament. At least one of those 2 has always been Creighton or Wichita State.

Maybe the MVC is better than the Summit, I'm not qualified to make that call. But any objective person should be able to say the MVC is a husk of what it once was. It just isn't that attractive, IMO.

The exclusion of Illinois State from this year's tournament shows the selection committee has come to terms with the reality of the MVC. I hope Summit schools understand that same reality before committing to a move, if that possibility arises. I hope they make decisions based on facts not feelings.

The money argument is a good one. IMO it is the only tangible edge the MVC holds over the Summit if WSU leaves. Jumping to the MVC without careful consideration could be like Denver jumping to the WAC. Tournament shares aren't all that great when all the cool kids have left the party.

I agree with this statement.

[HerdBot]

I think some here are so caught up in how many bids and RPI that they are losing sight of the fact that the MVC is way better than the Summit. Just because we dominate these teams in football doesn't mean we are going to in basketball. Not even close.

Missouri State is a middle of the pack Missouri Valley team and they beat us by like 25. UNI beats pretty much every Summit team by whatever they choose. Last year they beat SDSU by 30 and would have done the same to us. Illinois State beat Fort Wayne by 20 and IUPUI by 15.

Drake was the worst team in the conference and SDSU beat them by 8. (yes, Drake was 1-10 at the time) That same crappy Drake team lost to USD by 5. So the last place team in the MVC was pretty darn competitive with the Summit Conference Champion and SDSU who went dancing.

This would be like the first few years we were in the Gateway Conference. We thought since polls had us at the top we were better than UNI and we quickly found out they were so much better it was laughable.

Of course those early beat downs helped build our football program into a power. Basketball would be the same. The Summit is a minor league system for the MVC. They have a TV deal, have much more recognizable names, draw better, and are just a better all around league.

Cue to fuzzy math trying to stack the 0-2 Drake record to distort this fact.

[wow]

Curious why you started at 2007? 2006 had 4 teams in form the MVC. Yes. 4.
Witchita St, Bradley, Southern Illinois, and Northern Iowa. this included a Sweet 16 run from Bradley, and a round of 32 appearance from WSU.

The MVC might be better than the Summit. It might not be. It still held in higher regard around college basketball, and will getting tournament payouts far better than the Summit for AT LEAST 6 more years. Programs in the MVC have put resources into their program, made it competitive on a national level, branding the entire conference on a national level, and moved on to bigger and better things. Who's done that in the Summit? Oakland (On a much much smaller?)

There isn't really a reality with how they are viewed it. The MVC was down this year. That doesn't mean the Committee thinks less of the conference. It was simply down this year. It could certainly go back up next year. 2 years ago UNI was a #5 seed.

You can hate on MVC all you want. It's legitimate. Just don't pretend that staying in the Summit is going to somehow be better and more beneficial in terms of climbing a college basketball conference ladder. It's done nothing to show otherwise.

Because you said those do nothing MVC teams have made noise in the tournament in the last 10 years. I went back 11, and they haven't done crap. Your perception is that the MVC is a 900 lb gorilla, reality is they are more like an old dog that just lost their last really good tooth.

It is not held in a higher regard, currently, by the people who matter. Namely, the selection committee. The MVC is not competitive on the national level now that WSU and Creighton are gone. Teams like North Carolina won't touch an away game at UNI with a 10 foot pole now that WSU/Creighton RPI won't inflate theirs anymore. The MVC was down this year, and they will be even more down in the coming years with the exit of WSU. LOL at the possibility of the league being up next year. If the next rung of the NCAA ladder is the MVC, under the current outlook, that rung is on the verge of breaking.

[HerdBot]

Because you said those do nothing MVC teams have made noise in the tournament in the last 10 years. I went back 11, and they haven't done crap. Your perception is that the MVC is a 900 lb gorilla, reality is they are more like an old dog that just lost their last really good tooth.

It is not held in a higher regard, currently, by the people who matter. Namely, the selection committee. The MVC is not competitive on the national level now that WSU and Creighton are gone. Teams like North Carolina won't touch an away game at UNI with a 10 foot pole now that WSU/Creighton RPI won't inflate theirs anymore. The MVC was down this year, and they will be even more down in the coming years with the exit of WSU. LOL at the possibility of the league being up next year. If the next rung of the NCAA ladder is the MVC, under the current outlook, that rung is on the verge of breaking.

Wichita and Creighton were so good that they overshadowed the rest of the league which is really good. Like I said in a previous post UNI will beat every team in our conference by 20. Last year they beat SDSU by 30. Illinois State or Misouri State would have probably gone damn near undefeated in the Summitt. Heck Misouri State kicked our ass by 25 and they were a middle of the pack team. Illinois State beat Fort Wayne byt 20 and IUPUI by 15. SDSU and USD couldn't even kick the worst team in the conferences ass which was Drake. So our top 3 teams (NDSU, USD, and SDSU) had a 20 point loss to Misouri State and squeaked by Drake.

To me it would be like putting USD in the Southland conference in Football and watching them win the conference - even though they can't even make the playoffs in the MFVC.

[silkamilkamonico]

Because you said those do nothing MVC teams have made noise in the tournament in the last 10 years. I went back 11, and they haven't done crap. Your perception is that the MVC is a 900 lb gorilla, reality is they are more like an old dog that just lost their last really good tooth.

It is not held in a higher regard, currently, by the people who matter. Namely, the selection committee. The MVC is not competitive on the national level now that WSU and Creighton are gone. Teams like North Carolina won't touch an away game at UNI with a 10 foot pole now that WSU/Creighton RPI won't inflate theirs anymore. The MVC was down this year, and they will be even more down in the coming years with the exit of WSU. LOL at the possibility of the league being up next year. If the next rung of the NCAA ladder is the MVC, under the current outlook, that rung is on the verge of breaking.

No. I've repeated time and time again that the MVC just isn't very good. I'm not sure how you're missing that. No matter how much MVC has slid in the last couple year, the Summit has done NOTHING to show it can compete.

What has the Summit done? What has it done to be relevant and comparable to the MVC? Are you going to keep avoiding that argument? 1 tournament win among it's members? wow, that's dangerous, look out for those guys.

How many teams in the MVC built themselves up to bigger and better things? How many in the Summit? Are you going to continue avoiding that question as well?

What are you going to say next about the MVC when UNI builds themselves up and out of that conference to a better conference,a nd the Summit is just hoping teams like Denver don't leave them?

[HerdBot]

No. I've repeated time and time again that the MVC just isn't very good. I'm not sure how you're missing that. No matter how much MVC has slid in the last couple year, the Summit has done NOTHING to show it can compete.

What has the Summit done? What has it done to be relevant and comparable to the MVC? Are you going to keep avoiding that argument? 1 tournament win among it's members? wow, that's dangerous, look out for those guys.

How many teams in the MVC built themselves up to bigger and better things? How many in the Summit? Are you going to continue avoiding that question as well?

What are you going to say next about the MVC when UNI builds themselves up and out of that conference to a better conference,a nd the Summit is just hoping teams like Denver don't leave them?

:rofl: Yeah... hey 2 of our best teams did go 2-0 vs last place Drake by narrowly beating them. And we lost to Missouri State by 20.

But in all seriousness... the Dakota schools have done a great job of investing in facilities and improving our programs. I mean NDSU and SDSU have only been D1 playoff eligible for what... less than a decade and we've already been to the Big Dance 3 times and won a game. SDSU has been there what 4 or 5 times? Even UND made it.

But that has nothing to do with the Conference... seems like ONLY the Dakota schools seem to give a fuck enough about being a good basketball school. The idea that Omaha, WIU, Fort Wayne ,etc will do the same is laughable.

[EndZoneQB]

Seriously? This is the dumbest argument and that is saying something on Bisonville.

MVC>Summit. End of story. Stop trying to make up BS excuses, the quality of basketball isn't even close to the same thing.

[HerdBot]

Seriously? This is the dumbest argument and that is saying something on Bisonville.

MVC>Summit. End of story. Stop trying to make up BS excuses, the quality of basketball isn't even close to the same thing.


I wonder if people actually believe what they say :rofl:
Like you said, the MVC is better than the Summit.

[HerdBot]

For those of you guys who want to listen to some great talk on this topic...

Keith Brake has some good talk and he even has MVFC 1st & Goal podcast host Kelly Burke to weight in on this. Ketih talks about how the Horizon wants to add up to 4 teams. (5 if they lose one)

https://soundcloud.com/user-744211984/the-brakedown-thursday-april-6th-full-show

The Insiders also had a really nice segment on this

https://soundcloud.com/user-744211984/the-insiders-april-6-2017-full-show

[Christopher Moen]

Seriously? This is the dumbest argument and that is saying something on Bisonville.

MVC>Summit. End of story. Stop trying to make up BS excuses, the quality of basketball isn't even close to the same thing.

I'm not a basketball expert by any means, but this discussion is nearly Hall of Shame worthy. If the Summit had the merits that the MVC has, then why aren't NDSU and SDSU being approached by bigger conferences like WSU and Creighton have been? Staying in the Summit is not going to get NDSU and/or SDSU to the level those schools are at now.

Did this same issue come up for football when the school was looking into leaving the Great West Conference for the MVFC?

Not to degrade the Summit, but if NDSU and SDSU want to continue growing, they will have to take the MVC opportunity if it arises. Look at what moving to the B12 has done for wrestling for SDSU (I expect NDSU to pick it up soon). Do the Jackrabbits keep Bono as coach and get National Championship worthy wrestlers like Gross if they refused to join? Maybe Bono stays, but I don't see Gross going to Brookings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tjbison]

For those of you guys who want to listen to some great talk on this topic...

Keith Brake has some good talk and he even has MVFC 1st & Goal podcast host Kelly Burke to weight in on this. Ketih talks about how the Horizon wants to add up to 4 teams. (5 if they lose one)

https://soundcloud.com/user-744211984/the-brakedown-thursday-april-6th-full-show

The Insiders also had a really nice segment on this

https://soundcloud.com/user-744211984/the-insiders-april-6-2017-full-show

If the MVC takes Valpo or anyone from the Horizon, the Summit will get raided, Omaha, Denver, ORU

Like I've said for a week, you can think all you want the Summit is stable but it's not. People say the MVC needs the Summit to stay together well they don't move and it won't be around, or it will be just 4 Dakota schools and WIU. We turn down an offer from the Valley you can bet we will be playing Grand Canyon, Utah Valley, CSU-Bakersfield because that's what will be left to fill the Summit with.

Be a huge Blow to NDSU and a Sad Sad day

[HerdBot]

If the MVC takes Valpo or anyone from the Horizon, the Summit will get raided, Omaha, Denver, ORU

Like I've said for a week, you can think all you want the Summit is stable but it's not. People say the MVC needs the Summit to stay together well they don't move and it won't be around, or it will be just 4 Dakota schools and WIU. We turn down an offer from the Valley you can bet we will be playing Grand Canyon, Utah Valley, CSU-Bakersfield because that's what will be left to fill the Summit with.

Be a huge Blow to NDSU and a Sad Sad day

Yep. The Horizon may target up to 5 teams. If 3 are from the Summit, the conference is finished.

If the Horizon take IUPUI and IPFW, then we lose 2 quality teams. Of course if we lose Omaha or Denver, now we're in a spot where we have to worry about keeping an auto bid.

Then again if we lose Denver, Oral Roberts will go back to the Southland since they are now in travel hell. If we're lucky we can get UMKC who is pretty mediocre to help
keep Oral Roberts on board and add some stability for a couple more years.

It this happens we might as well get all the Dakota schools to join the Big Sky or the WAC. Or add a non quality program like Chicago State or a D2 team. We gotta get the heck out of this conference like yesterday. If dominoes fall many people will be shitting themselves in a month instead of acting like the Summit is so great

We need people with vision. If Matt Larson isn't doing everything in his power to make this happen he should resign

[tjbison]

Yep. The Horizon may target up to 5 teams. If 3 are from the Summit, the conference is finished.

If the Horizon take IUPUI and IPFW, then we lose 2 quality teams. Of course if we lose Omaha or Denver, now we're in a spot where we have to worry about keeping an auto bid.

Then again if we lose Denver, Oral Roberts will go back to the Southland since they are now in travel hell. If we're lucky we can get UMKC who is pretty mediocre to help
keep Oral Roberts on board and add some stability for a couple more years.

It this happens we might as well get all the Dakota schools to join the Big Sky or the WAC. Or add a non quality program like Chicago State or a D2 team. We gotta get the heck out of this conference like yesterday. If dominoes fall many people will be shitting themselves in a month instead of acting like the Summit is so great

We need people with vision. If Matt Larson isn't doing everything in his power to make this happen he should resign

it appears some cant face reality, Summit might have been ok if WSU didn't make this move, but unfortunately it appears they started a chain reaction

[Mr Meaty]

it appears some cant face reality, Summit might have been ok if WSU didn't make this move, but unfortunately it appears they started a chain reaction

Why does WSU leaving the MVC now all of a sudden make the Summit league crappy? Why have you guys not been lobbying for a move from the Summit before this???

[HerdBot]

Why does WSU leaving the MVC now all of a sudden make the Summit league crappy? Why have you guys not been lobbying for a move from the Summit before this???

Wichita makes the Summit crappy because it could set off a chain reaction that will make the Summit no longer exist or if it does, it will look more like the Great West

We've been saying for years that the Missouri Valley is where we have to be.

[tjbison]

Why does WSU leaving the MVC now all of a sudden make the Summit league crappy? Why have you guys not been lobbying for a move from the Summit before this???

i have, ive wanted out of the Summit and hoped for the MVC someday since we joined the MVFC.

[El_Chapo]

just tweeted by Valpo Hoops.

https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops

Sources believe that the MVC will consider expansion for candidates: Belmont, Murray St, NDSU, Omaha, NKU & Valpo"

[El_Chapo]

Culhane is an idiot.

SDSU would not turn down an invite to the MVC based on the conference tournament location. I could see us turning it down if we are the only "Dakota" school invited. I doubt we would make the move alone. My guess is if any discussions have occurred SDSU, just like we did with the Gateway have stated it is SDSU and NDSU together or we aren't coming. USD would not be on the radar of the MVC. Too new to D1, too little success and too small a budget. Five years from now USD and SDSU together? Maybe. Today, no. It would be SDSU and NDSU together or we would say no.

And based on geography alone, NDSU would not get an MVC invite by themselves. It just will not happen. Brookings is out there for the MVC schools. Fargo is on another planet for the Drake's and Evansville's of the world.


Oh yea? I see Chicago to Fargo flights daily... please show me the Chicago to Brookings flights.. ill hang up and listen. NDSU will go alone

[NDSUstudent]

I guess per "industry sources" NDSU is getting a look...


Industry sources believe the pool of candidates the league will at least consider for expansion includes the likes of Belmont, Murray State, North Dakota State, Nebraska-Omaha, Northern Kentucky and Valparaiso.



http://www.newschannel5.com/sports/more-conference-realignment-on-way-why-belmont-and-others-should-stay-put

[tjbison]

I guess per "industry sources" NDSU is getting a look...



http://www.newschannel5.com/sports/more-conference-realignment-on-way-why-belmont-and-others-should-stay-put

Wow, maybe they already threw feelers out and the SD schools said no, Valpo, NDSU, Omaha?? Belmont supposedly already said no to them Last time